Pond Boss
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 05:13 PM
New to the forum, been lurking for a few weeks now, just finished construction on a .1 acre clay lined pond estimated depths reach 6 ft fed by runoff in southern WV.

I have about 2 or 3 feet of water currently, an I am ready to start a stocking plan. My goal is to have only BG, CARP and as many easy to catch SMB as possible. Not sure the SMB would make it or if I can source them locally.

I have read quite a bit of opposing ideas on stocking timing, and the local hatchery would like me to purchase his off the shelf 1/4 acre package all at one time.

I am looking for timing and stocking numbers, if the consensus is the SMB will not make it I will succumb to LMB.

Let me know your guys thoughts
Posted By: DrLuke Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 05:43 PM
Just to clarify, do you mean grass carp or the more garden variety trash carp? What are your goals for the pond?
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 06:23 PM
Sorry, it sounded better when I was typing.

Grass carp to assist with pond vegetation, I am also interested in when I should stock these and how many.

My goal is just to have as many catchable SMB as possible if feasible. Otherwise I will just try to have as many catchable LMB as possible.

Really not looking to grow any giants just want a healthy bass pond.
Posted By: DrLuke Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 06:41 PM
Given your original post stating you have a new pond, am I right in guessing you don't have much for vegetation growing in or around your pond yet? Grass carp do not eat all types of vegetation either. I'd vote to hold off on putting any in for now, or at least putting very few in.

You might consider building your forage base before stocking your bass species of choice. BG (bluegill) are often used. Give them a season to establish and reproduce and then stock the predator species.

Lots of good info here in the different sections of the forum. You can also use a search engine like google, type in your question and one space after your search words type "site:pondboss.com" (minus the quotes of course). Works well to thin down your reading in the forum.
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 07:00 PM
Ya I have been trying different searches and I get mixed results in regards to timing of BG FHM and LMB stocking timing. Just looking for a resounding voice for my size/goal/part of the country.

Also looking for some opinions on SMB.

That's correct new pond, no vegetation growth currently, any suggestions on initiating correct vegetation? I figured there wasn't any reason to put any in yet for this reason

I'll try to add some pics, gotta get some smaller files
Posted By: beastman Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/12/17 07:21 PM
Do you plan to use aeration?
Only 6ft depth could be an issue in the heat of summer and snow cover in the winter.
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/13/17 12:38 AM
I was hoping to be able to wait until next summer for aeration, pond is about 250 yds from the house, I have the ability to run power but running out of time this year. I'm going to guess I'm a little warmer than you in Cincinnati too as far as this winter goes?

How are you SMB doing? Think they would work for me? Any pointers on timing?

I also have a well between the house and the pond that I would like to investigate to assist in combating any temp issues?
Posted By: beastman Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/13/17 01:32 PM
I would add the FHM now, do you plan to pellet feed?
I would wait to stock the SMB until Spring or Fall 2018 , add the BG in the Spring.

With .1 acre you will be limited to growth sizes on the SMB depending how many you want to stock. Due to pond size it will limit the amount and size of predators you can have and be a balanced/ healthy pond.

Look into aeration and pellet trained fish and you can push the limits higher on stock qty etc...
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/13/17 01:51 PM
Not really interested in pellet feeding, should have mentioned that, in ok with having less and or smaller fish whatever the result.

I have read quite a bit of your previous posts/threads in regards to BG and SMB, looks like there are better alternative for BG or the choice of having a SMB and FHM only pond (plus a few grass carp).

I would rather not have to cull fish either, looking for a plan requires minimal attention aside from future aeration.

I would like to keep a clean pond for the occasional summer swim too (didnt mention that in my goals)

Looking into planting wheat rye and clover around the pond.

I'm good waiting on SMB, looks like I should just develop a FHM population through the winter and revisit next spring or fall with SMB.

The local hatchery says our area does not hold RES anyone have any different experience? Or is YP a better option locally. Not really interested in the other fish other than a means of keeping the bass fed and the pond clean?

With the additional info feel free to provide reccomendations, just looking for a plan going forward.
Posted By: ThePondDragon Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/13/17 10:31 PM
If you are too far north to find RES try finding pumpkinseed sunfish. Similar to a RES but slightly smaller and much more cold hardy. Reduced spawning compared to BG means SMB can more easily control them. They will eat snails.
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 12:16 AM
There should be no geographical barrier to the RES in West Virginia. I'm quite a ways further north than you and the RES do fine. You'll have to find a way to source them though.

If you are patient and are working on your forage base for the next year (as would be highly recommended) then you could buy 2-3" RES which easily could be shipped to you. In your pond you could buy 20-25 RES of the 2" size and in 2 years they would be spawning and you would be all set.

however for that plan to work you need no predators or very small predators stockers up till the end of the 2nd year or beginning of the 3rd season.

Pumpkinseed would work fine as well if you have a source for them.

If you have a particularly heavy winter with prolonged thick ice cover you just need to shovel or snowblow the ice to help prevent winterkill issues.

Please do NOT do any type of premade 'kit' stocking program. Forage only next year, crayfish, minnows, shiners, scuds, shrimp, whatever you can. In a smaller pond you may have control issues with bluegill, you may prefer RES or pumpkinseeds as they don't have as many spawns/yr.

Can you explain your rationale for including carp in the mix? Do you mean decorative carp (i.e. goldfish or koi?) Or do you mean a few grass carp for vegetation control?
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 01:26 AM
I really have no reason to be in a hurry.

Carp would be for vegetation control, need to read more on them.

Local hatchery has res listed but says wv climate cannot support. I may be looking into ordering fish as the local provider is really pushing a quarter acre package for my .1 acre pond.

So for forage I'm thinking crayfish and FHM and RES after your guys confirmation, should I add additional variety to the mix? Are YP considered a predato or would they be a good early addition ?

Anyone know a reliable shipper for FHM, Crayfish and RES for the short term or SMB for the long term, like I said I prefer not to feed so I am assuming I don't want pellet trained. Also any recommended numbers for initial forage stocking?
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 01:30 AM
Reread canyon creeks post, I guess your saying hold off on res until fall 2018, then SMB the fall 2019.
Posted By: beastman Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 02:24 AM
I don't think you need to wait until fall 2019, stock some FHM now , in the Spring stock some YP, BG, HBG , RES...depending on the size you stock I think one Summer season would be fine to get the forage base going in .1 acre pond. You could then stock SMB in the Fall 2018. Smaller ponds are easier to manage ...

This all said if your goal is to have 5-10 'trophy' SMB then waiting 2-3 seasons for the forage to populate and trying to source all the variety would help to that goal.

If it were me that is a long time to wait and then the time for the SMB to grow to trophy size and then probably be pretty difficult to catch in a pond full of food...
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 02:37 AM
Sorry, I meant that you could do all the forage options now and since there are no predators now you could put small RES in now too. If you stocked 20-25 RES they would likely not eat out your forage base all by themselves. Consider the various shiner species along with FHM. The RES really can decimate the FHM population over time as they (the FHM) swim slower than shiners (golden, spotfin, spottail, etc). If you add the YP this fall with the forage that would work as long as they aren't adult YP. I think adult YP could clean house on your forage this fall, winter and early spring. You would want a few successful minnow spawns to get ahead of them and their appetite for minnows. Not sure you would get more than 1 spawn yet this summer fall although you are south a ways.

My RES went in small with various batches of different types of minnows and the minnows soon were outpacing everything.

No predators this fall, then in spring if you can get YP add those in small enough numbers again that your forage can keep ahead. Probably 50 or less YP, maybe WAY less if you don't plan for pellet feeding at all.

Then your predators could go in Fall 2018 but you might have so much fun building and expanding your forage and watching your RES and YP grow, catching them, then seeing clouds of various types of minnows and shiners develop over the growing season next year that you may want to give your pond another spawn season in Spring of 2019 to see how much food you can amass.

Then add your predators. If you do SMB, they don't have to be pellet trained, just catch your own or get stockers. IN your pond you could easily add 5-10 SMB and see how they do. They won't reproduce so it is a good way to control things.

I don't have any BG or HBG so I can't say how you control them in a small pond especially if they go in ahead of the predators. I'm very thankful I don't have any BG or HBG for many reasons. To me they really are only necessary if you want to feed a big and ever growing number of LMB. they are one of the only forage machines that can keep up with the LMB appetite. If you don't have LMB, I don't see a need for BG or HBG unless you just want to catch trophy size panfish.

have you looked into sourcing tilapia in the spring as a bonus species, fun to watch, possible to harvest for food, and keep the pond clear of algae?

Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 01:26 PM
Just to clarify I want as many catchable SMB as possible, not looking for football sized smallies in this tiny pond. 12" is plenty big enough for me.

With that in mind, what rates should I stock in regards to a clean pond that needs no culling.

- FHM, Bnm, res(1-3in) and crayfish now
- should I add in any snails or tadpoles? Or any other forage like this
- tilapia, grass carp and YP and when
- SMB fall 2018 or spring 2019

i can start another thread for plants/structure but feel free to throw in any recommendations here. I have a pile of rocks/boulders available.

Now I'm reading FHM can be direct competitors of young SMB, maybe this is a good thing so I don't get over populated?
Posted By: beastman Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 02:53 PM
I would add some FHM ( 5lbs ) now, RES qty 25-30 now is fine, YP qty 30, either now or in the Spring. Snails and tadpoles should occur naturally.

Tilapia and grass carp shouldn't be needed for a couple seasons as the pond is established...although Tilapia would add to the forage base through Summer.

Rocks and boulders are great for SMB , small branches etc are good for YP spawning to lay ribbons.

The advantage of your size pond is you would not need to put much effort into correcting it should the need arise. A 30 minute fishing trip could cull the fish needed for example...
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 04:55 PM
consider buying a minnow fry package from Andersons. Actually don't see it now on their page but they did at one time sell 250,000 fry. This and time could give you a good start on minnows. Or consider asking your local bait shop to call his bait wholesaler and the next time he comes around on his route, leave a bag of wholesale FHM for you (5 pounds). While you are at it, ask about a similar quantity of golden shiners. Very versatile fish and better at self sustaining even in the presence of SMB

SMB are 'put and take' meaning if you want to keep 50 in there you just have to restock the ones you take out. The carrying capacity in terms of oxygen, food etc has to be considered. Practically speaking, sourcing the SMB is the main issue and then minimum orders are usually 100 fish so then what?

Tilapia in the spring is a win win for pond health and forage. If you are innovative, you could work on a cove area where you could cordon off the tilapia and net them out or some other way to 'corral' them and harvest them for your own consumption about the time they are going to die off anyway. A smaller pond makes that much more feasible than a larger pond.
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/14/17 05:10 PM
I had it wrong, Anderson minnow farm sells GSH fry, not FHM fry. Still would be an easy way to get a good start on your forage.

Shiner Fry
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/15/17 12:25 AM
I'll look into the fry, but canyon you hit my next question, when does adding all these different species begin to take away small mouth numbers, and is there something unhealthy about smallmouth remaining small after two or three years?

I'll try to look up a calculation for pond size vs bio mass (if that is the right term). back to google.

Thanks for all the questions and thoughts, continue to make any reccomendations they are very appreciated.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/15/17 12:54 AM
With SMB leave out the BG for now. When you find the SMB are not what you want in this small pond or they don't survive, then you can add the BG-LMB. Note when you add any LMB they will crowd out the SMB - guaranteed. You will raise more bass in 0.1 ac using SMB compared to LMB. You are on the right path for forage for SMB: RES, YP, minnows, crayfish from Smith Creek Fish Farm. Most other ivfertebrate fauna and frogs will come in on their own.
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/28/17 09:28 PM
Called around and the only RES and YP I can source are 5+inches...

Should I wait until next spring and get fingerlings?

I can go ahead and get FHM and let them start reproducing.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/29/17 12:56 AM
Keeping in mind your pond is quite small at 0.1 ac so it won't take very many stockers to get the pond balanced. Fingerling RES and YP are not be available until mid summer 2018. Fingerling RES and YP from this year's crop should be commonly available now at 1.5" to 4"; fastest growing YOY perch can be 4"-6" this fall. SMB are very hard to find in spring due to selling out in fall so a fall stocking will be now or next fall. You can add SMB 2"-3" this fall with RES&YP if you add extra FHM as a food for them. Very new not full ponds often do not have abundant natural invertebrates foods until the ponds have water for 6-10 months.

You have several stocking options for your goals. 1. If the pond is not currently full, you can wait until spring when more natural invertebrate foods are available then stock what you can find.

2. If you don't stock YP until fall 2018 then stock about 1-2 lbs of FHM and fingerling RES spring 2018 and if you add YP then add more FHM (3-5 lbs) to account for YP eating some of the smaller FHM and offspring. Late Spring stocked small RES and YP will reproduce spring 2019. Early spring pre mid-April stocked YP 5"-7" will usually produce a spawn soon after stocking.

3. If your fall 2017 stocked RES-YP are 5" then you will get a spawn of both species for spring 2018. Keep in mind that YP in fall and Apr-May will often be graded individuals with smaller ones (2"-4") mostly males and 4"-6" mostly females; get some of each for a good male-female ratio. With all forage stocking in spring, lots of small fish will be available in fall 2018 when you stock SMB and/or YP. Keep in mind your SMB supplier may not have fingerling SMB in fall due to common poor hatches of SMB. Have an alternative source of fall 2018 SMB.

I commonly add YP (3-4" & 4-6") with minnows in spring and SMB fingerlings in fall. Allowing pond to develop lots of invertebrates during fall winter and early spring makes a good food base for the spring stocked forage fish.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Ready For Stocking - 09/29/17 03:57 PM
As your pond progresses please return regularly to let us know how the fishery progresses in your small pond. The information will be very helpful to other members who have small pond similar to yours.
Posted By: Jsmolde1 Re: Ready For Stocking - 06/20/18 07:32 PM
Stocked the pond last Thursday with 35 BG and 5 lbs of FHM, the supplier I ended up using recommended them because his RES were bigger than his BG.

Working on adding photos but my pond is staying muddy, also I think had an algae bloom after the first couple feedings.

Any ideas on the mud?

Also what should I expect as far as mortality on a new pond?
Posted By: snrub Re: Ready For Stocking - 06/20/18 07:58 PM
Don't be surprised if you see a few dead FHM floating to the shore. FHM are tough little fish when it comes to water quality but they are pretty tender when handling. So it is not uncommon for a few to get damaged beyond repair in the transport to their new home.

Hopefully you will not see any BG floaters. But I would not be overly concerned if I saw only a couple.
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: Ready For Stocking - 06/20/18 08:40 PM
Like john said with respect to the FHM's...IMO, a dead minnow, give or take, a day for a few days would not surprise me. Once the FHM's get to be adults you can see dead males occasionally that have exhausted themselves breeding and guarding nests (so long as you have breeding structure for them I the pond).

The BG should do just fine. I stocked over 600 fish in my pond last April (500 of which were HBG)and may have found 10 floaters within the following week or so. With only 35 fish, I'd start wondering what was going on if I started seeing more than a couple floaters.
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