So, I am new to Pond Boss and new to pond management. Last summer I put in a pond at my home away from home in Ohio. I stocked it this spring with the Zett's new pond package. Everything appears to be going good but I have some questions to see if it could be better. On my last visit I noticed that the little BG appeared to be making nests and trying to spawn. This surprised me. I have read suggestions on keeping some big bull BG in the pond to encourage smaller BG to focus on growing in order to compete with the larger dominant fish. Should I consider putting in a few mature BG so my small ones do less spawning and more growing or will this upset the echo system that was started with the new pond stocking package?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Kirk

I put about 20 mature BG in (mixed sexes) last winter, after first stocking fingerlings (1-2 inch) in mid autumn. The big bull BG made most of the nests, but spawned with big females and small ones alike this past spring. I didn't see any of my stockers making nests, only the mature BG.

Thanks for the info John. I can't wait to hear other inputs. I will be out there over the 4th and have considered putting in some big BG. The reality is that once they are in I cannot take it back so I want to do it with both eyes wide open.

Kirk

How big is the pond? You may have overstocked a new small pond.

If your this spring's newly stocker small BG are tying to spawn I suspect they are likely somewhat stunted from being over crowded at the fish farm. Fast growing BG in a balanced situation often do not stock until they are around 7.5"-8". Many here think the Zetts 'new pond package' is sales over-kill to naïve new pond owners. Items in your "Pond Package" that you probably don't want are in order of importance: trap door snails, clams, algae eaters (Israeli or koi) and Daphnia. Snails can greatly increase change of fish parasites and trap doors get too big for fish to eat, mortality of dead clam shells can cut the feet of swimmers. Algae eaters when large 15"+ will cause water turbidity working the bottom for foods, the resulting mud clouds will get mixed especially if the pond has aeration. The (carp)algae eaters do not really control algae by eating it but primarily by making the water turbid and plants do not grow well due to lack of light penetration. Turbidity lowers plankton productivity and resulting natural foods in the pond. Daphnia do not need to be stocked into most all new ponds because Daphnia are almost always one of the first zooplankters to naturally colonize a new pond.

The pond is between a 1/2 and 3/4 acre. The fish were put in as fingerlings so I would have a hard time believing that they were stunted from the fish farm.

Pond is about 15' deep and has 1 air diffuser at about 8'.

Kirk, what size were the fingerlings when stocked? What size are the ones now that are indicating spawning behavior? Texas BG can and often do spawn at 3.5 to 4 inches. Anything smaller than that will more than likely be stunted.

Dave,
They were probably 1-1.5 inches in March as fingerlings. They are probably less than 3" now. My LMB have gone from about 2.5 to 7-8 inches. Based on some reading I have done I am thinking that putting in a few (10-15 8"+) mature BG may encourage these little guys to quit thinking about spawning and start growing. But don't want to disrupt the establishment of the food chain.

Will the larger BG devastate the forage fish (FHM, Shiners, Ruby Reds) I am seeing tons of new fry around pond.

Larger BG will have little impact on the forage fish if the BG are fed pellets. You would be wise to collect larger pellet eating BG from a pond owner that feeds the fish. BG at 3" or less that are spawning is not a good thing for goals of growing large BG. The fingerling LMB that are now 7"-8" are the wolves of the forage fish and have likely consumed most of the 1000 FHM that were originally stocked to grow to their current 7"-8" size. These bass with ample forage could be another 3"-4" long by fall if forage is adequate. These LMB at 100/ac will spawn in Apr-May of 2017 and their offspring will likely devastate the meager forage provided by the Zetts philosophy.

Our philosophy here is the best way to grow a great fishery is to stock the forage in year one, allow it to exponentially multiply where the pond is full of forage fish, and then in fall or next spring stock the predators.

Bill,
I always appreciate input but I will have to say that I cannot find anything in your responses to help me move forward. The question that I have posed is what should I do now not what I should have done this past spring.

I don't have any aspirations of growing record book fish. Just would like to have a visibly good looking pond to relax around and enjoy pulling some nice fish out every now and then.

Thanks,
Kirk

I stocked CC, RES, BG, FHM, Gambusia in Fall of 2015, and some brooder BG in winter 2015. They already spawned twice. I plan to stock about 20-25 LMB fingerlings in May of 2017. The pond is 1/4 acre and 10.5 ft deep at normal pool. I am actively feeding the BG and CC. There is already a huge population of FHM.

All righty then.

Once a male bluegill becomes sexually mature, his growth slows down. And while they enjoy indeterminate growth, once mature they cannot go back and undo what's done. If it were me, I would listen to Bill and source some feed trained larger BG. Yes, they will feed on your forage base, but not near to the extent that your LMB will, have already done, and will do with increasing gusto once they begin to recruit. That's the reason for supplementally feeding pellets to the BG, to encourage growth.

Bluegills are the backbone of the food chain in many ponds, and have a much better chance of establishing a residual population than the minnow species you listed. Bluegills smaller than 3" on nests is not a good thing, but as you pointed out the mistake has already been made. Your choices now are to nuke the whole thing and start fresh with a better understanding of how this stuff works, or make do with what you have. Go ahead and add your bluegills. Will they affect what you have achieved thus far? Probably. But if what you have now is already sub-par, then what's the harm?

Be careful where you get those bigger bluegill....make sure they are northern strain bluegills, NOT one of the multitude of extremely similar in appearance but still not bluegills....you may make things worse. Also, for your strategy to work, you really need male bluegills, not females. How confident are you in your abilities to accurately sex these fish?

One more thing, moving fish from one BOW to another is a great way to inoculate your pond with parasites, and possibly unwanted aquatic weeds. Be vigilant.

My answers were there, you did not either comprehend or recognize the responses. "If you add adult BG use pellet trained fish." To keep your bass growing well the rest of this year and next year, each of them needs to have about 0.5lb of small fish thus my comment "These bass with ample forage could be another 3"-4" long by fall if forage is adequate" i.e. 100 bass x 0.5 lb = 50lbs of forage. Your stocking is/was significantly short on forage fish for continued good bass growth. Focus on enhancing your forage fish base if good growing fish is your goal.

Good answers have been adequately provided by JohnF and sprkplug. Lots of fish growing info has been posted in the past threads of growing big BG info in the Common Pond Q&A Archives.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1
Additional to sprkplug's reply, If your add stock adult BG are eating pellet food they have a lot less or almost no desire to catch & eat small fish.

First off, let me apologize for any tone that may have been perceived in one of my previous responses. I respect and appreciate all inputs. Even the ones that initially may damage my pride, they sink in over time.

- moving forward....

How many male BG would you guys recommend? I currently do not know how to distinguish the males from females. I do have a nearby pond that I could pull them from but that sounds like it is not recommended. There is a fishery about 45 minutes in Coshocton, Ohio. They advertise large BG. I could call and see if 1. I can buy exclusively males and 2. check to see if they are food trained. Of course that means I need to find a feeder and source of food. I am certainly not against this since I put a lot toward feeding my resident deer herd.

Should I take the opportunity to build the forage base and put in more minnows? How many and what types?

What would be the recommended feed rate for my startup pond? Any recommendations on feeders. I would need one that would work from a bank as I do not currently have any piers or structures overhanging the water.

Would catching and removing some of the LMB help with the situation?

I turned my old pond around that was over run with GSF by removing GSF and adding 4-6" BG from my main pond.

I believe my BG have the upper hand now by adding the larger BG.

A similar plan might work for you Kirk B. Only in your case, remove LMB and add larger BG.

The larger BG I stocked last December were not feed trained initially. The small BG were feed trained. The large ones have now become feed trained, likely by interacting with the smaller ones. The large males will have brownish orange, not yellow, bellies. They will also have a "helmet head". The spawning age females have yellow bellies and slimmer (more pointy) heads. That's how I distinguish them.

I have not invested in a feeder. I am retired and enjoy feeding by hand, twice a day. I have some albino CC and BG that might take food from my hand. I am going to try that when the water comes up again so I can reach it from the dock. In my 1/4 acre pond, each feeding lately consists of about 11 ounces of mixed Optimal BG food and Cargill 36% feed, for a total of 22 oz per day, dry weight. They clean this up in about three minutes each feeding. It's getting hot and I don't want to risk overfeeding.

This time of year in Ohio, there will likely be male bluegill guarding nests somewhere close by, should you decide to transplant some. Females only visit the nest for a few minutes, so if you see a lone BG standing pat over a depression in the pond bottom, it is probably male.

Course' it might be a male Pumpkinseed, Greenie, Redear (good choice also), Longear, or a hybrid of any the above. Identification is very important.

Welcome to PondBoss, good to have you!

It is unlikely that Fenders in Coshocton will have large BG this time of year. I have known them well since the 1980's. Fall is when they normally have the large 8" BG that can be reliably sexually recognized. Plus few if any fish farms want to sell fish when water is 80F due to difficulty of handing fish in warm water. I doubt that Fenders will sort males from the stock, plus they will likely not agree that you need mostly males to suppress your small BG spawning activity. IMO they will 'push' mixed sex adults or 5"-7" fish.

Few of your fingerling fish will eat the standard size fish pellets. Buying 50 lbs of fish food now with just your 'package' fingerlings could be IMO a waste of money since those fingerlings purchased will not eat much food from now till late fall. They can survive okay until fall or spring on natural pond foods. One generally should not hold fish food for longer than 8-10 months before it is all fed. I doubt that you received pure all BG fingerlings from Zetts. Don't be surprised if you have a few GSF or hybridBG show up the angler catches in a few years.

Snrub and JohnF have good options. Removing bass will lessen the predation pressure on your forage fish. Although you will likely need good predation pressure of the spawn from your current BG nests. Yes - Often large BG will self-train to pellets but getting them now from a fish farm will likely be a problem. If the adult BG eat some fish fry that is a good thing in your current situation. Since you don't live at the pond, and at this point of mid summer, your simplest and easiest option is probably to work with your current fish package and then in fall assess your situation, then maybe make some changes or adjust in spring.

It is likely hard for an owner of a small pond to need or utilize a full bag of Aquamax 400 in a years time, but the small BG just go nuts over that stuff. I have them lined up waiting at the banks edge waiting for it. No official training schools or courses needed.

I'm no expert at training fish, but If someone told me my job was to train a bunch of sunfish that had never seen feed, the tiny pellets of the AM400 would be my go to feed to try and train with. The little BG go nuts over it, the bigger BG will come in close for it, and even the 2-3# CC will come in and try to take it away from the small BG if I hold still so as not to scare them off. Hard for me to believe a 3# CC would even bother with those tiny pellets, but they will just open their mouth on the surface and hoover them up.

I think very small pellets would be a key to feed training small fish.

I might as well go all in here and give the total package that I used. I promise to brace myself for the replies but don't need a whippin just some advice and options for correcting any big issues and way to move forward.

100 LMB
500 Red and Blue Gill
100 YP
100 black and white crappie
100 CC
100 Breeder Shiners
100 Rosey Reds
1000 FHM
100 snails
100 bull frog tadpoles
100 crayfish
10 Koi
1 Quart Daphnia

I probably should also mention that I have introduced water lilies and several other plants around ponds edge. I am really looking for a diverse pond environment an if we can have some fun catching fish at the same time then that would be great.

Maybe Bill's advise is the one to go with. Wait till fall and reassess the situation.

Not meaning to whip up on you but:
Crappie in a pond are bad, especially white crappie. I wouldn't want more than one Koi either. LMB should not be stocked until the year after FHM and and BG have first spawned. At any rate, 100 LMB is too many for your pond size.

100 catfish is also way too many for a non-production general recreation pond. This number of CC in a 0.7 ac pond will tend to cause turbidity when they are 16" and begin to dig areas for spawn cavities. CC could have easily been omitted from the package based on your stated goals. Frogs then tadpoles will move in on their own natural migration tendency. Expect the 10 koi when 15"+ to keep your warm season pond with a visibility of 8"-16". Two koicarp would have been plenty for 0.7 ac. When stocked with 100 fingerling bass the 1000FHM(2-3lb) should have been closer to 5000 to 10000(10-25 lbs).

Since you have 100 crappie you should study the posts in the crappie archive thread. White crappie do perform better than black crappie when water is turbid (12"-18")which should prevail after 4-6 yrs.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92447#Post92447

We once put four wild caught crappie (all females about 10") into a small, semi weedy farm pond of about 0.2 acres. My cousins caught them out while visiting about three years later, and they were all close to three pounds. It can be done successfully if one is VERY careful, or just lucky.

Kirk I am not an expert, but what I would do if it were my pond and that is what had been stocked, I would start feeding and fishing. I would take out every crappie, bass and catfish I caught, till I removed enough to where the experts on this forum think is the amount that would have been best to initially stock. Fish traps might help in the removal also.

With a half to three quarters acre pond it is unlikely you could possibly catch enough of those three species to be too many. So pick up some small lures/bait/hooks appropriate for the current size fish, and fish away to your hearts content. That is what I would do. I have actually caught adult FHM on a #10 cricket hook so you can catch some pretty small fish via hook and line. Small hook and small bait. I might also put in about 10-15 nice 6-8" BG from another good water source. Since I am not that good at sexing fish I would not worry about it. Just pick nice looking, healthy fish large enough so the predators can not eat them.

That would be my non-expert opinion of how to move forward, for what it is worth. Oh, and if you do not already have it add aeration. Aeration will let you push the feed limit/pond carrying capacity more than you could without it. That will be important with a heavy fish load and will allow you to feed your BG to help them get ahead of the predators better with larger spawns.

Kirk, do you plan on swimming in the pond also? If so, Daphnia are also known as "water fleas", which cause, "swimmer's itch".
EDIT: Snails (mollusks) are the vector for cercidia, not Daphnia (crustacean).

Honestly, I would strongly suggest swallowing your pride early, killing everything in the pond with Hydrated Lime, and restocking, without crappie, daphnia, bullfrogs and definitely no Koi.

I would even let the Hydrated Lime kill all the added plants as well, unless you KNOW the lilies are non-invasive. (many garden pond lily packages include spatterdock).

I suggest killing the pond because the loss of what you have spent now, could be but a fraction of what you may need to "correct" things in a year. Reading what you want from your pond, I can virtually guarantee that you will not be happy with what will be happening from what was stocked.

Kirk, I personally believe that you got hosed by Zetts. But, it is important to remember that they are only in the business of selling fish and other "stuff"; not looking out for your interests.

You are over stocked. Lots of people make that mistake. I did when I stocked my first pond.

Since raising and caring for fish is very regional, I won't give advice on what to do. I'll leave that to Sparky, Rainman and Cody.

At this point, I don't think you desperately need to start the pond over based on your stated goals. You can always kill or renovate the pond later if the fishery degrades to unacceptable conditions. snrub has provided some common sense advice - do some selective fish removal which can deal with overstocked. Keep in mind you will need lots of small bass to control offspring of the crappie when they are large enough to spawn.

Add several large 8" BG from any good water quality source which can't cause a lot more negative impact. Look through the sunfish archive for differences between the species including hybridBG. Know the basic differences. Note the pure BG (males and females) have a completely dark gill flap to the margin with absolutely no colored or clear thin rear margin possessed by most other sunfish and their hybrids.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482
Although you possibly received some hybrids or GSF fingerlings with your order of 'red & blue bluegill' from Zetts. At 1"-2" long the sunfish species are very difficult to distinguish from a mixed or contaminated species pond at the fish farm.

Your introduced plants are probably okay, but keep an eye open & remove any unplanted things growing among or near those that were planted. From experience, Zetts sells some acceptable water lilies. His yellow iris spread fast so watch for that potential.

One correction, Daphnia (aka water fleas) do not cause swimmers itch. Swimmers itch is an itching rash caused by a free-swimming parasite (cercaria) of flukes that try to burrow into the skin of people in the water. The cercaria are looking for waterfowl and swimmers are a substitute. Snails are the parasite host and a part of the life cycle of the flukes. Any introduced snails can be contaminated with a life stage of the flukes. Waterfowl transport the flukes.

The Daphnia are a beneficial water filtering zooplankton Crustacean. The fingerling fish, minnows, and shiners will pretty much eliminate the Dephnia depending on the species(adult size) that Zetts provided. Some adult Daphnia are large and vulnerable whereas some are a lot smaller and can survive some fish predation in certain conditions. IMO the Zetts Daphnia cultures are very likely not pure Daphnia cultures and include numerous species of mixed zooplankton; not really a bad thing.

You can catch some of those koi on bread balls and remove some of them.

(I have an over stocked koi situations and have been doing this)

To not totally start over, start fishing out and removing some bass , catfish and even crappy. Add some larger BG and maybe larger Golden shiners as additional forage.

Thanks for correcting me on the Daphnia, Bill.

I was up late and knew snails (mollusks) are the vector , but mis-read where parasitic research was also done using Daphnia as a host for the miracidia, but after I just re-read the rather confusing article on parasitism, it was another parasite tested in the Daphnia Magna.

I agree that fishing out several fish can be done, yet having the pond away from home, may make managing out of the overstocking very difficult, if even possible, where starting over could be a less costly, labor intensive option.

If he has very specific goals and those goals are already compromised, then I see that as a viable alternative Rex.

But with his stated goals and he have already accepted that those fish were ok with him to be there in the first place (Koi, etc. - otherwise he would not have bought them and brought them home) along with the fact that even when stocking is done perfectly some ponds end up being problematic with trash fish it would be hard for anyone but the most die-hard angler with high expectations to throw away the money they have already spent without at least trying to make it work.

Starting over is no guarantee of problem free progress. Look how many on this forum have had problems with fish being bucket stocked or swam in from other BOW's or a different fish supplier with contaminated fish supply (it does happen and how many can actually look at 2" fish and know for sure - a very small minority of common non-professional pond owner fish handlers) or who knows how else some of those fish get there. So even starting over is no absolute guarantee.

Think if the guy nuked it and had a high water event after spending his hard earned money all over again and trash fish stymied the whole thing. How many years are down the road now before he even wets a hook? At that point I would likely just hire a bulldozer to fill it back in.

I can catch some pretty nice fish out of my old pond and it has a bunch of GSF and BH that I managed around. I don't think we need to make the guy feel any worse than he already does and I don't see his problem being the end of the world based on his stated goals.

We do need to let him know what his challenges might be though so he knows what to expect and he can go from there.

But that is just a non-expert opinion.

Something for Kirk to read about using or stocking crappie.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=450643#Post450643

Here is another thread on crappie that at least turned out pretty well at 3 years with the talk of potential problems later.

crappie pond whatcha think

And this one with mnfish

black crappie management

I don't have crappie and no experience with them but have enjoyed the discussion of management successes.

Kirk, I scanned back over all this thread and I did not see any specific stated goals for the fishery. If they are in there I missed them and that is usually one of the first questions given to new posters.......... what are your goals for the pond?

That question is of the utmost importance. Is the primary goal fishing or is that a secondary or third or fourth goal? If you want to raise trophy LMB or some other fish specific goal the plans moving forward might be a lot different than if you want a general panfish fishery you can get a meal once in a while and the kids can catch fish easily. The recommendations for growing a double digit bass may go from the extreme of killing the pond off and starting over better to if you want a kiddy fishing pond with a fish on every cast you might be right on target to get there. I had a dozen kids over fishing Saturday and I noticed no difference in the excitement between a 4" BG and a 9" BG pulled in. I was more excited about the nine incher but for the kids numbers seemed what mattered.

Don't get discouraged. Let us know what you expect to accomplish or what you expect out of the pond, and it will make it a lot easier to get good advice. Without stated goals, everyone that posts has to come up with their own version of what they would envision the pond to be. Their vision may be nothing like yours.

In my case I have no desire for trophy fish. Some guys the fish and fishing are the goal and the pond is just a way to get there. They want a 12# bass and want to know how to get it. For me it is the complete opposite. The pond and the process is what floats my boat and the fishing is just a nice sideline. I get more fun from and spend more time feeding my fish daily than I do actually fishing for them, although the fishing is fun too. In my case the journey IS the destination. I have about as much fun trapping little fish and moving them to another pond. Am I doing the right thing? Probably not but I am having fun doing it and isn't that supposed to be what a hobby is for? (other than throwing vast amount of time and money into a bottomless pit).

So before some of the recommendations get you in a tizzy, figure out what is actually important to you and try to convey it to us. Then the guys and gals on here that actually know something (myself not included) can do a lot better with the direction you need to go to get there.

Don't get discouraged. You are going to enjoy your pond.

P.S. Welcome to the forum!

I agree with Bill that you can over time correct the situation by harvest and stocking adult (5 + inch) BG. Harvest all of the other fish you catch other than BG and RES.

As far as I can tell here are Kirk's goals: "I don't have any aspirations of growing record book fish. Just would like to have a visibly good looking pond to relax around and enjoy pulling some nice fish out every now and then."

I thought I had read that but when I scanned back to look for it could not find it! Thanks.

In my opinion that leaves a pretty wide latitude for management mistakes and still possibly end up with a decent fishery, at least for a few years. Maybe eventual problems, but seems not insurmountable.

Ok guys I am back. Took me a little bit to read all the input and have to admit that I have not gone to the links yet to read about crappie.

Snrub, you ask a very good question and although I did put something in an earlier post about my goals it is probably worth some additional time to make sure everyone understands them. My building the pond is not about growing trophy fish. The property is a paradise away from the hectic work schedule for DOD near the nations capitol. My real aspirations are to grow antlers and that is why I found a place in Ohio. The pond was added for aesthetic value primarily. Sounds like I am inline with you in that if I can put a smile on a kids face by pulling in a medium size BG, LMG, CC, Crappie or whatever it will be a success. I like the sounds of bull frogs in the evening and at night and love the looks of lilies and stumps in the water (even if I lose every lure I own).

I think that if I summarize the recommendation they are as follows:

1. Remove as many LMB, CC, Koi, Crappie as you can.
2. Put in 8-10 large BG (preferable males) - I will have to get from pond across street. Should be able to get some 8+ inch fish.

I assume the YP were a waste of money as they will just provide food for the LMB.

Questions:

Will putting in a mature LMB help with #1? If so, what size is best?

Are there other predators that would help out?

What should I do with any BG that I catch (throw them back or keep them out as well)?

What about FHM's. Should I stock or will the existing LMB's just clean them up? There is lots of cover in pond.


------------------------------------

The funny thing is that to get the 8+ inch BG and the LMB up to probably 5# I just need to go across the road (to a neighbors) and fish a totally overgrown and neglected 1/2 pond. That is what I want : ).

I also have a 1/2 pond on the border of my property and 2 others. Since it is shared I have not considered doing much with it.

Once again, thanks for all the input.

v

How do you attach a photo. I have a photo of the BG we were catching across the road and you guys could probably tell me what type they were.

If you are interested you can also go to this site and see the pond and a few picts of building the pond.

www.flickr.com/buckeye-lodge

Adding photos to posts.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92443#Post92443
The YP were not a waste of money. The stocker fish will perform pretty well until they die of old age. Unless the pond has a decent amount of submerged vegetation don't expect a lot of the offspring to survive the intense bass predation that is needed to control crappie. YP are a slender bodied fish for a long period and easier for bass to eat-swallow compared to sunfish and crappie.

Answers 1. IMO I would not add any larger bass. Your existing numerous 7"-8" actively growing bass are more than adequate for your needs.

2. LMB are one of the best fish predators due to their aggressiveness and large mouth.

3. I would release all the current BG and 'red gills'(RES?) that you catch. Zetts fingerling red & blue gill (>3")may have included hybrid BG which is a common occurrence with some fish farms even Fenders. However others may have different 2nd opinions. At this point in time I think you need the spawn from the small BG and possibly the few add stock adult BG to keep the numerous bass growing.

4. Adding more FHM after this point benefits the fish farm the most, not much benefit to predators in your pond. FHM are best served to get quick growth of bass the first year. Other fish then become the backbone preyfish of the fishery. You now want your existing fast growing bass to prey heavily of the current hatchling BG that is now occurring. The new hatchling BG will quickly in 1 month be 1" long and good food for 8" bass and other fish present that are able to eat fish less than 1"long.

It would be informative for members here for you to return next year and report the progress of your pond.

Kirk sounds like Bill Cody has a good plan for you.

I will say one thing about moving big BG over from the other pond. I would encourage you to move not only the big ones you are talking about, but also some in the 5-8" range. If BG only live about 6 years and you put all big, mature 9" ones you might be moving them at near the end of their life cycle. You might only get a year or two of spawning from them. Also it is my understanding that large mature fish may have a harder time acclimating to a new environment than younger fish.

So from my perspective (and I may be wrong, listen to guys like Bill Cody over me) I would try to catch and move a variety of fish from 5" on up. Those are all fish large enough to spawn (and large enough so your LMB will not eat them) but then you will have laddered sizes with some that have several years left to grow and spawn.

Edit: Looked at your photos. Beautiful place and nice setup you have!

It would be okay to also move some smaller BG. I would move mostly 6"+ fish. If you want opinions of male vs female before moving get us some pictures of test fishing from the neighbors pond. Males should be nesting now,, so those you catch in the nesting area would be mostly males. Focus your main attention on the size and shape of the gill flap. Also females will have yellow breast area while males will have darker rust breast bottom in front the pelvic fins.

I talked to the folks at Fenders. They said they will sell me some big BG. I will pick them up on Wednesday. My uncle and I were talking about moving the fish and we thought that might be a bad idea. We have noticed that the fish in the neighbors pond have the parasite that looks like pepper. Based on it being spread by birds I would guess it is only a matter of time before I get it in my pond but why rush it. Is this the right move? I guess I might have brought parasites in from Zett's and may get more from Fenders or are the fisheries fairly safe from parasites?

I posted the best picture I had from some of the BG we caught at the flickr link. It is not a very good picture. Fish had been in the bucket for a bit and color has changed.

From the Indiana DNR website:

Black-spot disease


These parasitic flatworms appear as tiny black spots on the skin, fins and flesh of fish. No method of control is available for the elimination of this problem. (Note from esshup: Stocking Redear Sunfish to eliminate the snails in the pond will break the life cycle thread and the black spot parasite will disappear.) This organism does little harm to the fish. The main problem associated with black-spot is the unsightly appearance it may cause. Skinning infected fish will remove most black spots.

The life cycle of the parasite is quite complex. A fish-eating bird (typically a great blue heron or kingfisher) eats an infected fish. The black spot or worms are released and grow to sexual maturity in the bird's intestine. The adult worms pass eggs with the bird's droppings. When the eggs reach water, they hatch into free-swimming organisms which then penetrate snails for further development. Finally, after leaving the snails they burrow into the skin of fish and form a cyst. The fish surrounds the cyst with black pigment that gives the disease its name. If an infected fish is consumed by a bird, the cycle repeats itself

If you can buy known quality fish and the cost or trip to get them is not insurmountable, that is the way I would go. Surely the fish farm at least goes to some length to provide the best genetics they can muster. That pot luck seems like a better chance than the pot luck of catching fish in the neighbor pond.

But either way will help you out, in my opinion.

The more I stock and haul fish, the more picky I am about where I source the fish. Some suppliers are more careful in how the fish are handled prior to pick up, and that translates to better fish going into the pond.

This is spot on. Ha no pun intended... When I bought my pond back in 09 my LMB, and GSF has these black specs all over. Fast forward after stocking RES, 2 years later I haven't seen another spec one! You got to break the chain and that's exactly what the RES do!!

RC

Fenders is usually pretty good about placing the correct number and size of fish in each boxed oxygenated bag pkg. Be sure to let them know of how long the trip home will take put then in the air conditioned car on the way home not in the sun. Ask about a live arrival guarantee. I have never seen black spot on Fenders fish which are usually pretty 'clean'. They usually have RES in the waters where they grow the larger fish. This eliminates snails and most fish parasites. Often fish farms sell fish on the small side of the advertised size range. Fenders fish are usually in the middle sizes of the advertised size. I have been pretty happy with their quality of fish over the years. They strive to maintain their good reputation. If you but the larger BG from them,,,,post some pics of the fish for others to see.

I am curious/nosey what they will say about using mostly males for your project. Don't forge to ask them about it.

Bill, will do.

Will the RES eventually take care of the Japanese Trap door snails that came in my fish package?

Are the clams a problem like the snails?

I don't care if they have shells that are sharp and cut feet. The area that I am in is covered with flint and if you are familiar with flint you know it is sharp.

RES should eat the immature trap door snails. Once the snails grow to over 1/2" long, I think they are in a size refuge regarding RES predation. I've never dealt directly with trap door snails and don't want to. It is my understanding they are a nuisance and considered invasive, however as a positive, they eat attached algae.

Oh well. The RES won't run out of good food. Maybe I will look up some recipes myself. It is my understanding that they do not multiply as fast as other snails.

The Zett's 'clams', I assume are freshwater mussels and not invasive species of zebra mussels and corbicula (Asian clam). Native mussels are filter feeders each one filtering gallons of water each day to eat / remove silt, bacteria, and quite a bit of plankton thus they compete with fish smaller than fingerling size. Filtering the water should make the water clearer depending on how many mussels are present. Most freshwater mussel species in the central US are mostly stream dwelling species. Only a few of them are pond dwellers such as in order of most common in ponds: 'giant floater' Pyganodon grandis, 'fatmucket' Lampsilis siliquoidea, and 'eastern pond mussel' Ligumia nasuta.

The RES should eat the young clams less than 0.5" long.

Kirk,
See if my pictures in this link from a prior post and the discussion in that thread helps you at all. It sounds like yours snails are different than mine?

Snails

I am fairly certain that I have Jap. Trap door snails as that is what comes in the package. Just to be clear to everyone here - I am not blaming Zett's in any way for my situation. They advertised them as part of the package which I picked out and paid for it knowing I was getting them.

I understand based on input here that snails are vectors of parasites but they also should provide other functions and at least food to my RES. Maybe I can find a good recipe as well as I am not above trying to cook them. It is my understanding that the Jap Trap Door will not reproduce as fast as other snails and that they give birth to live young. Maybe the experts can chime in and tell me where I am wrong.

Bon appetit.

Where are you commuting from to go to Ohio? How long does the drive take you?

I could potentially have some 6"+ BG you could take to Ohio with you if it's not that bad of a drive. I suspect I'm within your area based on other comments made. Transporting fish this time of the year isn't the best idea, but towards the end of summer and into fall it can be done for longer rides with oxygen pumped into your tank/trashcan/large cooler.

I wanted to give you guys an update. I was supposed to go to Fenders and pick up big BG last Wednesday. I got a call on Tuesday and they told me they were unable to get the BG size of BG I needed but offered some 4" BG. I thanked them for their effort and the call but passed up on the 4" BG since they aren't all that much bigger than what I have. Bill, I think you said they probably could not get them this time of year and you were right.

I did remove about 8 LMB. I caught a couple more but they were probably 2" bigger than the ones I removed and I couldn't bring myself to remove such a good looking fish. I am guessing you guys are going to say I should have removed them for sure since they are obviously eating more of the current pond population than the others.

I also installed a fish feeder and have it feeding a very small amount of food each day which will hopefully get them trained for pellets after some time.

Thanks for all the help on this topic.

Lukkyseven, I am coming from just east of Fredericksburg, Va. takes me about 7.5 hours. Thanks for the offer but think I will stick it out here for a bit and see what happens.