My nephew recently built his third pond in central Illinois. The first two are typical Bluegill, Channel Cat and Bass ponds. He started filling this new one, about two acres, last fall and added about five pounds of fathead minnows then. Bruce would like to have a Black Crappie only pond, and is starting to put some fathead friendly structure in it. My question is: How to you provide forage if you only want crappie? I told him that although adding the fatheads was a great start I didn't think they would survive more than a few years. What additional forage can he put in. He is aware of the fact that the pond might be difficult to manage and may lead to needing to kill it all off and start over.

I would definitely consider GSH or some sort of shiner.

Golden shiners may compete with the crappie. I'd listen to what Cody, Travis and TJ have to add to this. I imagine bluntnose minnows, spotfin shiners, maybe lake chubsuckers might be considered here.

Some single sex largemouth to help control the crappie?

I am not a pro but IMHO I would at least consider going with Hybrid crappie if I could get them. He might stand a chance of managing those and not over populating too soon.

I don't think the FHM will last long. I'd suggest some alternative minnow species more adept at escaping predation, and more likely to establish a self sustaining population.

Bluntnose minnow
Spotfin shiner

Maybe Cody and Travis can recommend some addition species, topminnows, darters, daces or shiner species.

I'd allow the forage base at least one season to get rolling before stocking crappie.

Or, he could go the extra mile and try to feed train the crappie...that's been done before, but I worry about the offspring being non trained.

One last consideration - HBCP may be easier to manage than straight BCP. Rex can source them from AR. Mine and Zeps are doing fairly well, grow fast and I'm not seeing reproduction, yet, that has served as a management issue. Then again, I have dense apex predator populations to hammer YOY HBCP that helps.

If population management becomes a chore, MNFish one man fyke net setup allows him to manage his BCP populations well. He's a definite success story managing smaller pond BCP fishery.

PS: My YOY GSH are far too adept at predation avoidance for HBCP to effectively utilize as forage IMO. I see HBCP make half hearted efforts at the schools of YOY GSH in shallows and always seem to swing and miss. My SMB are another story....

Further, while GSH top end size does allow for brood adults to keep spawning as they are not vulnerable to predation, I think they grow so fast they may not be appropriate forage for long, if they can even be regularly targeted at all.

Bear in mind BCP will graze on zoooplankton far more in comparison to WCP, so regular planktonic algae blooms and subsequent zoo blooms will be another important factor towards keeping the crappie population in good condition [well fed]. Can zoos fed BCP alone? I don't know...not qualified to weigh in there with no experience.

Stocking HSB might be a consideration to help keep HBCP population managed...but that is diverting from your monoculture goal. You already know how I feel about HSB - zero downside, huge upside as a management tool and angling species...but there I go again.

If using straight Black Crappie, I can't see a downside to Golden shiner competition as the GSH could delay BCP stunting. Other than Bluntnose Golden Shiner and Fatheads, the only other decent forage species I can think of off the top of my head is YP or Bullheads. I doubt BH are a wanted species...

The Hybrid Crappie have made a lot of people happy, yet straight or hybrid, it would be hard to stay with only a crappie as the main predator. I'd think you'll need to add at least HSB or WE to help take up some slack.

Only other option might be to stock a BUNCH of BCP and try getting some on feed before they all starve....maybe 2-5% would take to pellets

Would scuds and/or grass shrimp be a good addition as another forage source for crappie?

Invertabrates are good forage in any fishery

Thanks TJ! Will crappie feed on small crawfish and small frogs?

Edit: Sorry for asking so many questions but trying to learn and also trying to brainstorm on what forage can be put into a crappie only pond to try to maximize the potential for success.

Every quality small crappie pond I know of has gsh in them. These ponds being 3 - 25 acres. Smaller ponds may be a different story for lack of hsbitat? But diverse food chains do help.

I can tell you what DEFINITELY didn't work for me as forage...BH's. They got into one of my crappie only ponds and ruined it. Those little buggers took over and the BCP couldn't keep up. I think the BH grow too fast and surpass the gape of BCP quickley (completely uneducated guess). They were eating my BCP forage. Fishing with fathead minnows and BH after BH would be caught. Food hogs!

Like MN, I have noticed that my SMB are unable to keep up with or do not prefer BH as forage also. I have collected YOY BH and fed to caged SMB and into my grow out cell and they are largely ignored and eaten only after the BG, FHM and GSH are gone. Since BH swarm in pods for protection...might intimidate the SMB, not sure?

Rex - I, like you, initially thought GSH would serve as a good forage source for HBCP and stocked them into the .1 acre experimental pond with the PVC muskrat problems [you know the one]. Two years later and the HBCP were all around 70 WR and stunted but I had a booming GSH population [thousands]. When I released the HBCP into the main pond, they doubled in size and rebounded quickly during the first 18 months - I credit it to improved fertility [more frequent plankton/zoo blooms] and abundance of YOY BG, RES, and YP. Based on my personal experience alone - which isn't going to be the same for everyone, GSH did not serve as good forage for HBCP.

I find Crappie to be more of a stealthy, floating, quick strike ambush predator. My GSH are more pelagic in nature. From my observation, the HSB seem to have the legs to hunt them down in open water, also being pelagic, and often seem to feed in "packs", working the GSH schools together to the surface. Interestingly, I observe larger SMB cruising along with the HSB "packs" on my camera - and during feeding times they are right along side the much larger HSB - apparently not intimidated, and get their fair share of AM LMB. I never thought of SMB sharing these characteristics with HSB - however due to the lack of cover and structure in my pond, they may have adapted their foraging tactics to be more successful - and follow the HSB around. Just a theory...

Using my AquaVu cameras I note my crappie prefer to hang in the shadows of the dock and between and beneath the cages and pop the swarms of BG that also congregate under the shady docks. One strike, hit or miss, then drift back to the shadows and wait some more. My crappie never chase more than a foot before they reset. I rarely have GSH hanging around the dock, they are typically schooling and hammering pellets in the open water 6' or greater depth.

They also love hanging around the periphery of the green monster light at night and will often swim slowly, on their sides or even upside down, apparently grazing on zoos which are rising at night from the bottom of the pond maybe chasing plankton attracted to the light?

Just my personal observations - I suspect every fishery is unique in some characteristics like these.

I have BCP,CNBG LMB, GSH and FHMs if any are left, so is the YOY CNBG and GSH going to be enough forage to keep the BCP up to snuff?


Pat

If all the stars lined up. I have a little 1/4 acre pond that will be full of GSF come ice off. My plan is to trap as many of the 2" and above and then stock it with 50-100 4-6" BCP and monitor their growth. I know from fishing with GSF the BCP sure do like to eat them.



This was about an hour of soak time from the pond I want to test. Full of GSF. No aeration in this pond and it's shallow. The greenies are tough but I don't know.

From TJ "...Using my AquaVu cameras I note my crappie prefer to hang in the shadows of the dock and between and beneath the cages and pop the swarms of BG that also congregate under the shady docks. One strike, then drift back to the shadows and wait some more."

This is my observation as well. In my ponds, which are shallower and very clear. The BCP seem to act a lot like LMB. We fish Rapalas like top water jerk baits and sunfish minnows fluttering on the water surface. The BCP will break water and crush the baits. IME, they miss the baits way more than they hit them. But they are very ambush type predators on my ponds.

Just for you TJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6_lMZsIc

Just realized I posted this on the wrong thread....what a maroon I am

If I was doing a crappie only pond, I'd leave the GSH out. Too much competition with the crappies for larger zooplankton. I'd love to use HSB as the control species. Don't feed pellets and force the HSB to feed on the YOY crappies. A monoculture of just crappies would be tough to manage. Good forage would be forage with smaller mouths and different food preferences. BNM, SFS, BKF and LCS would be great options. I'm now loving my eastern silvery minnows but realize they're impossible to source for most... I would without a doubt stock PK shrimp. A great way turn detritus into prime crappie food.

GREAT info, TJ, Thanks for sharing!

So guys what would be a good forage fish for us southern guys for crappie?



Pat

I'd look at red shiners, lake chubsuckers, taillight shiners, bullhead minnows, fathead minnows, golden topminnows and blackstripe topminnows are all Texas natives that could be possible forage fish candidates for a crappie pond.

CJB
Not GSH?

Crappie can't catch them, they are WAY too fast.

Seriously I watched GSH in captivity and as I release them and I seriously wondered if there were some forage fish that simply out run the predator. The GSH both in speed of movement and ability change direction out paced the FHM 2-1. I wonder if any underwater data shows ability of GSH or other more stout shiners or shad outrunning panfish predators?

I imagine some like LMB maybe rely on ambush?

Aren't BCP also an ambush fish also?

Pat

FWIW IMHO I always thought of GSH as primarily bass or other larger predator forage due to their size. My thinking is they would rather quickly out grow the mouth gap of a panfish. I considered stocking GSH as forage for my YP and decided against it for that reason.

Truth be told all the larger ponds with crapipe gsh have other predat or fish Too. One small crappie pond (1 acre) was just bcp and at the start of year 2 I started working with the pond a little. Put half a gallon of 6" plus golden shiners in. It has a rock face and other good structure and I probably went light on the goldens. Also put five gallons of you fatheads in from a pond that was going dry. Never been able to trap or net a minnow from there. I will try again this summer and plan on adding scudds. The pond received perch the next year but we haven't done a predator yet because this pond over flows into a walleye pond. May have to move a few up stream as all the crappie are stunted.

fishm_n,

I am not familiar with stocking fish by the gallon. About how many FHM would you guess there is in 5 gallons and how many 6" GSH in half a gallon?

A gallon of true fish no water. Take a gallon bucket and drill a ton of holes to let water out. Pour fish in. That measures a gallon of fish. Larger the fish less in a gallon. Not sure on the numbers. I thought the goldens would take as spawners. The fatheads they were yoy. So many of them but easy food. I thought with all the cover some fhm would make it.

Thanks!

Number of FHM per gallon (8 lbs) depends on size of FHM. For example at 1.5" there are close to 5,900/gallon and at 2" there are close to 2400/gallon. At the average large size of 2.5" there are 1200FHM/gallon.

Thanks bill!

No GSH if your primary goal is big crappie. The GSH compete with the crappies too much for larger invertebrates. Select the smaller forage species and perhaps the chubsuckers as they would be a larger prey item but wouldn't compete for food...

Oops on the GSH s they were added in the fall along with FHMs to get the BCP and LMB through the winter till the CNBC could spawn this spring for BCP fodder. The bucket stocked LMB were eating all the forage. Can HSB catch the shinners?

Pat, I think HSB could catch any shiners, this is based only from my experience on how hard they take a bait when fishing. Man!! they will knock a rod out of your hand when they hit

Tracy

Tracy
I was figuring if the crappie can't catch them then maybe the LMB might and that should take some of the pressure off the CNBG spawn


Pat

Did we lose you somewhere?

TJ
I think so, I was told to add GSH and FHMs, which I did, now I hear BCP can't catch them

My apologies Pat, The 'confused' icon was meant to indicate that I was not stating it as a fact but more wondering aloud as a question? Asking to be educated. There wasn't a emoticon for 'I wonder?'

Instinctively I think that predators will find a way to catch prey. I have no doubts that walleye, LMB, SMB, and HSB can ambush or chase down GSH.

I imagine there is no reason to think that panfish would have any problems either but I was wondering aloud because I've never seen that topic up for discussion on this forum. It really would be a great topic.

It would take direct observation like having GSH in a tank, or RES in a tank and give them only GSH to eat instead of FHM.

I know that GSH can get to a size that probably a BCP would not be able to swallow them.

The question is as the GSH get larger can they swim as fast or faster, or maybe slower?

Are there studies about whether certain panfish hit a point where they cannot use shiners or certain species of shiners as a food source due to speed/maneuverability constraints?

I imagine in a pond that has lots of minnows and shiners there are enough minnow or SHG fry, insects, bugs and other sources of food that the crappie will just switch to other food sources.

You really would really have to have a small plastic outdoor pond or indoor aquarium to watch the predator vs prey unfold in front of you.

Apologize if I created undue concern about your stocking plans!

Does anyone have only crappie and GSH/FHM in a pond?

Based on my experience stocking HBCP in pond with GSH as forage they did not perform well - low WR and poor performance despite abundant forage. This is only my personal experience, it's not a rule by any means, just sharing the science from my experiment. I think we've hit on several characteristics which suggest GSH may not serve as ideal forage for BCP:

GSH foraging competition
GSH quick growth rates out of range of gape
GSH pelagic and schooling nature in addition to characteristic speed/elusive nature make them less vulnerable to BCP predation. I don't feel they are too fast for BCP, just far more adept at avoidance than other species.

I think crappie probably hammer their fare share of GSH up to 3-4" for larger fish, but all these characteristics add up as not ideal forage for me. Once a GSH hits age 3 it's out of range as forage. That's not an ideal situation...I'd prefer having SFS shiner where even adults could be used as forage.

Again, my BCP responded immediately when introduced into a new fishery with YOY BG, YP, and RES. Improved fertility and subsequent increased zooplankton presence also probably helped boost performance. Since my YOY BG schools tend to loaf in same areas as feeding crappie [beneath my docks], I think they are relied upon very heavily as forage. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of my BG make it to age 1 - and BCP probably account for a significant share of that predation.

Can GSH work as sole forage for a BCP monoculture fishery? I don't know - only offer one study at my farm where I did not achieve goals I established for the BCP.

I agree with Travis and other's suggestions on alternate minnow species which can reproduce in a pond environment. Smaller shiner species identified in addition to LCS may work too. I don't think we have much science on this scenario on Pond Boss - not many have tried it. That's why I wanted to share my experience, thought it may be helpful.

Per my previous post - yes - I held a 2 year experiment with HBCP with GSH and FHM as forage base. FHM were extirpated in 2-3 months but GSH populations flourished. WR of HBCP were around 70. That means they were stunted and skinny. Stocked at 3-4" and they grew to 7" in two years.

GSH grow fast and won't serve as forage for BCP for a long period of time. GSH grow up to 10" and can live for up to 8-9 years. They are likely only within gape range of BCP for 1-2 years. At age 3+ GSH are likely out of the gape range of a CP. This is one of the reasons you're getting the less than positive advice on the GSH among other reasons.

Again, per my original post, my apex predators [SMB, HSB] do effectively prey on GSH, even the largest adult GSH. GSH are pelagic schooling planktivores and the HSB and SMB seem to work together to hunt them in packs, especially during feeding times.

Thanks guys

I am trying to have a diverse forage population for the BCP and the untimely LMB. Maybe the additional forage besides CNBG and soon mudbugs those guys will get enough to eat and prosper. There is also a small amount of gams involved although the LMB YOY keep them whittled down . There are so many variables to all this that it is kinda mind boggling




Pat

Pat

If you are stocking CNBG, I think your Crappie will do fine on young BG. I think my BG feed my crappie very well. I don't think you should feel compelled to stock special minnows or shiners to try and feed your crappie. With presence of LMB I think you might struggle to get new species established anyhow.

Sorry for the hijack, Bing!

I hope some of this is useful. Go with Travis' suggestions on minnows/shiners for best chance of success. I would not stock GSH.

I have been catching GSH in crappie jigs in my pond. I suspect that the larger GSH are significant predators on YOY fry. I stocked 3 dozen the summer of 2011, I suspect this one is from the original stocking as it is now 9-1/2" long.

She's a beaut - either well fed on pellets, or ready to drop some eggs.

Important to note, maybe - I have caught HSB as small as 24" on 8" adult GSH.

"As small as 24 inches", he writes nonchalantly.

LOL, just meant that for gape information!

TJ, did you know that the NE hook and line state record for GSH is 14 oz?

I'm thinking that in another year or two an I might be able to break it.

I bet we both could, easily.

yellow fins pretty , mine tend to have red fins...

Bobby, you might have rudds, they are very similar to GSH and will even hybridize with GSH.

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=648

Pretty fish

Funny I actually did some reading up on rudds recently, they do get larger than GSH. I doubt I have them or hybrids. I got all my GSH from wild Florida stock. Rudds are not known to have populations in florida. They are not that red either just not bright yellow fins like that. Often no color too.
this is one, now that I look closer I actually see a hint of yellow in the anal fin...

Now that you have posted a picture, that looks like a GSH to me.

Fin tinting can also be influenced by diet. I occasionally catch sea run cutthroat trout out of Puget Sound, they have brightly colored yellow tinted fins as well which is thought to be influenced by what they eat in Puget Sound. It seems that both my GSH and RES have more heavily yellow tinted fins, so maybe it is just something they are eating in my pond?

Will tilapia be a good forage for BCP! Need them for FA management .



Pat