I have a pond in northern az at 6500 ft. I just started filling last summer and it is about 3/4 full. I stocked 5 lbs of FHM in july and there was at least 1 spawn. I wanted to do bluegill which would force me to do LMB. I also wanted to stock RBT first this spring to get a jump start. I am not an angler and this pond is for recreation with the family(swimming and fishing) but we have never fished (that's why I want BG). For ease of maintenance can I just stock RBT and YP and swim and fish as desired? I really like the idea of a good tasting fish like YP.

Of course you can. You might not ever have a perfect fishery but the pond could be perfect for you. You stand a good chance of ending up with stunted perch but that would make them easy to catch. Maybe think about single sex lmb or tiger muskie if the yp do get out of control? Try to limit the yp spawning habitat. More specific goal or stating the limit of the want to manage may help get you the right answer.

Striped bass taste like perch??? Any comment on that thought?

I want to be able to have a group of people go up 3-4 times a year and fish great tasting fish and then swim in the clear water as well. If I stock it rainbow heavy with they keep the perch in check and will the FHM survive?

I have no fishing experience so I am really open to anything. Especially if it's the easy way.

I have seen fhm maintain a population with limited trout predation. 8 trout per acre. If there is no cover then the bait won't survive. Will there be vegetation or any cover??

What is the depth? And look into hybrid striped bass if you don't want to worry about perch to stunt. The first fish in any pond do great. So you would not have to worry about stunting for several years.

Depth is 15 to 20 ft. So I have FHM with plenty of cover, if I add 8 trout now, the yellow perch in 2-3 months, will the system balance out with the trout and people as top predators?

The ice is off at 6500? Just 8 trout will get hook shy real soon and not enough to keep yp in control. Is your pond about an acre? Professionals recommend either a total poundage of fish per acre or total number of fish per acre. More fish means more catchablility fewer fish usually means bigger fish. So finding the balance or a way for the pond to balance itself is the key.

Here's my view point on it. I stocked RBT and in great enough numbers they will eliminate the FHM. I think the RBT will then go after the YP as the next best option, if the RBT are allowed to get big enough(14" and bigger?). At the very least, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't want the YP fry. This leads to what I see as the problem: what are the YP going to eat if all the FHM are gone?

Are there any plans to feed?
Will the trout live year long?
Can you source feed trained YP?

If you feed, The YP will benefit but the RBT will be lazy from getting the easy meal and not manage the YP enough. You could periodically stop feeding and force the trout to go after the YP.

For reference this is the pond background from an earlier post. "I am building a 1 acre pond approximately 20 feet deep. It will be a combination rain fed and well fed pond. I want it to be a combination swimming pond as well as fishing. I don't want to feed as this is a cabin property and only go up once or twice a month. It has a 6500 ft elevation with summer temps that can reach as high as 90 degrees but more often high 70s low 80s."

I have no experience with trout(RBT)&YP combo. Lots of YP experience but none with YP-RBT. Since you do not live at the pond consider not adding YP because they my overpopulate. If you lived there, you could control their numbers pretty well by removing egg ribbons and trapping young fish. There may be someone here with experience YP-RBT, but I don't recall reading about the combination.

IMO I would first stock just FHM and RBT. You have the FHM established. Number of RBT to not over-eat the minnow population is at this point unknown, at least to me. However I think you could stock at least 50-70 RBT per acre and still have good minnow survival. RBT esp smaller trout (8"-16") will eat a lot of insects in addition to fish. Wild trout can survive on invertebrates alone. In some natural trout fisheries a 16" trout is a pretty big trout. Trout will grow slowly on limited food. In mid-summer the FHM should stay out of the cool niche area of the RBT, thus during summer breeding season, FHM should repopulate well. FHM are very prolific if you have ample spawning structure. You should also consider providing a significant amount of cover as minnow refuge protection places to help protect FHM from predation. I would start by adding tree tops or brushy limbs along the shoreline with butt ends on shore so the branches could be later pulled out if needed. I would start with 30-50% of the shore lined with brush.

You can monitor the numbers of FHM by using a bread baited minnow trap when you visit the pond. Pay attention to how many minnows you catch, the time of year (water temp), and how long the trap fished in each trap set. Over time these data will tell you how well the FHM are surviving. You can also use the minnows as bait for trout fishing. Fish them in the deep water layer where trout are likely to be during summer. Measure the water temp as a depth profile to know how deep trout are likely to be in mid-summer (60-68F water layer).

Brushy unfishable areas along shore will catch poacher angler lures and may also deter trespasser poachers from shore angling and stealing your trout which is very likely to happen once the word is 'out' that good easy fish are in the pond. 4 wheelers & off road bikes go about anywhere these days.

Once the pond has aged with FHM & RBT for 4-6 years, then reassess the fishery to see if other fish are needed. It may happen that RBT cannot tolerate the hottest part of the summer in your pond. IMO it may be hard to know if the lack of RBT are due to dying or getting poached. Usually poachers are 'trash pigs' so if you see strange fish lures/gear on the ground or hung up in brush, or general people trash, such as smoke butts or disturbed surroundings on the property then you will know you have trespassers/poachers.

Hey Bill, where do FHM go during the winter? Seems like they would be vulnerable anywhere in the pond at that time. I get what you are saying about them spawning in a protected zone during the summer, but what about being overeaten during the winter? Would he add habitat for them somewhere during those times too?

I have added 40-60 RBT during winter months, and have no FHM left. However, I have other predators too, but was feeding too. This winter I have added no RBT in order to see if the fry population of some of the other species will be stronger ( -hopefully BG). It will be interesting to find out.

FHM during winter will be where they are at during most of the year - shallows and among shoreline cover if it is present esp when predators are present. It is the trout that will change habitat locations during the year. My suggestion of using just FHM and RBT was what I would try first - no proof it will work. My guess is my idea will overall work better than FHM-YP-RBT. Every pond is different. Degree of success will depend on how much brush cover he puts down along the edges. This is why I suggested up to 50% or even more of the shoreline shallows lined with cut brush. Finely divided brush will fairly quickly degrade thus it will require annual spring brush placement. Ponds can be a significant amount of work. If his pond develops sizable weed beds then this can serve as FHM habitat. However most owners will not tolerate sizable weed beds in a recreational pond.

Increased winter predation of FHM is why I advocated significant amounts of brush lining shorelines. Trout IMO will be hesitant to penetrate deep into twiggy shoreline brush. Trout esp larger ones are not typically known as dense cover niche fish, and are unlike LMB especially smaller bass of 5"-8" who will readily penetrate dense brush/weeds chasing minnows. I think a majority of the RBT predation will occur outside brush lines. Under clear ice cover, I often see minnows scooting out from shoreline cover of the 2"-6" depths when predation is present. Shallowest dense cover will be the habitat that protects the FHM year round.

Bill, Sylvan Lake in the SD Black Hills has FHM, GSH, and is stocked annually with hatchery rainbow trout. I fished this lake in 2007 and there were FHM everywhere along the shoreline, surprisingly there was very little cover for the FHM to hide in.

https://denr.sd.gov/dfta/wp/tmdl/tmdl_sylvan.pdf

Shorty- I take it there are no other fish species in that lake?

Bill- Thanks for the clarification of where the FHM are during the winter. Before now, never gave it much thought.

No other fish species in the lake, the lake is only 17 acres and sits 6145 ft above sea level.

Shorty adds that golden shiners GSH can diversity the forage food base and likely have good survival rates. Good idea. It may be a good idea to include at least 50-100 GSH before adding RBT. Shorty also notes -..."surprisingly there was very little cover for the FHM to hide in." Again good info. this is why I suggested to place the brush tree tops with butts on shore so they could be easily pulled out if they are not needed. Of course if you have too many minnows and shiners you can always add extra RBT.

When the trout are staying deep during summer the minnows will spend more time in more open water areas.

Captwho - whatever plan you follow keep us advised and updated to your pond fishery progress. We can all learn from your experience especially since it is a unique plan.

My pond is definitely evolving as I read and educate myself on the forum. Thanks to you guys, most of my changes are happening way before I act as opposed to making tons of costly mistakes and having to fix them.
If I have lots of cover, in your opinion will a significant amount of RBT maintain populations of YP over time if we are assisting in predation with our poles. The RBT won't spawn so I could do a put and take program but use the YP for table fare. If so, is that 50-70 per acre still a good number?

Also Bill, even though I don't live there, the place came with a caretaker who is an old ex-marine/cowboy who guards the place against trespassers at the point of a shotgun! He's lived on the property for the past 20 years. Poachers will not be an issue!

If both YP and RBT in the pond, are the RBT going to go after the YP or the FHM??? Do small YP go to deeper/colder water when the FHM won't?

CaptWho- If it came to it, would you be willing to kill-off the whole pond and start over if your ideas can't be managed in the future? I like the notions of thinking outside the box, but it does come with high prices/sacrifices at times.

Stock WE with the YP and RBT to help control the YP?

My guess is that 'captwho' will have a very hard time locating walleye and even YP in AZ. I think RBT may also be fairly difficult to source for him. According to Shorty's post above FHM and GSH can maintain breeder population numbers with the RBT. I have never read how well RBT will prey on YP. I doubt RBT will be good predators of YP due to different habitat niche behavior. I would not want to see someone stock YP-RBT only to have a pond infested with 4"-6" unharvestable skinny YP. It is a risk one has to IMO evaluate carefully. One might be able to catch lots of YP but are they usable as table food?. Overpopulated YP are also known to be a nuisance to swimmers; another disadvantage for the goals of the project.

I would like to read any research that indicates that RBT will effectively control YP.

Captwho may find that RBT will not consistently survive year round in his pond. He may need to periodically restock after summer fish kills and change his goals. YP then becomes a more viable option to be used with SMB, HSB or another predator based on what fish species are available to him.

Just a thought...I see Smith Creek Fish Farm has RBT, WE and YP. Their web page says they will ship to "many other states." Not sure AZ is one. Captwho would need to check it out.

They'll ship, but pond owner will pay very high prices. Only worth it for brood fish - few breeding pairs, IMO.

I think their minimum on pond fish is 25 or you pay a premium for the smaller quantities. Guess "it depends" on how bad you want them.

Captwho,

Maybe I missed it, but how big is the pond?

Guys,

Is the 6500 ft altitude an issue with the inherent lower air pressure and less available O2?

Bill, I thought it was an acre but after using a tool someone on here posted it looks to be about 3/4 of an acre.

Looks like this whole discussion might be a moot point because game and fish just told me they would most likely not approve a stocking permit for me to stock YP. To worried about the YP getting out into the watershed somehow. (we've all heard what those kingfishers will do )

I can get RBT easy. That is what most people stock around here. I sure would like to get a nice manageable pan fish in there with out LMB. Once the bass go in a can't continue to stock RBT because they will just get eaten.

Argh! Just curious, do you know how warm your water will get during the summer?

What I am wondering is if there is a SF that can survive the cold but not successfully spawn, or rarely, in cold trout type water temps.

SF = ???? Sportfish?
Captwho are there lists of fish hatcheries that service AZ or your region? Where do most "people" in your area get their fish to stock? Personally I would start with the FHM-GSH-RBT and see how that succeeds. Learn the pond characteristics. Then proceed accordingly.

SF= Sunfish to this newbie Sorry for any confusion. Just trying to see if anybody had ideas on how to acheive his goal of having a panfish.

Cody Note: we should probably put SF in the Acronym Archive. I will get'er done.

I consider RBT to be a type of "panfish".

So if RBT = PF, then its ultimately MmG ....(MMmm mmm good)

Absolutely!

Gentlemen. To be clear...RBT are not panfish! They are GF. Grilled fish!

Thanks Bill!

Yes, we have several hatcheries. They are split up into warm water and cold water. Most of the trout are raised by game and fish but there is one commercial hatchery. I am thick headed, as Bill Cody has already observed, but apparently even I can learn. I am conceding and am going to do FHM-GSH-RBT.
I already have FHM, so what quantities should I use for GSH and RBT?

+1

Any added GSH prior to trout stocking should provide the brood stock needed to help diversify the forage fish base. A good start would be 4 to 8 pounds which is often 400-1000 shiners at 3"-3.7" although 100 shiners would also work okay as brood stock. Number of RBT to stock IMO would be dependent on how big they are at stocking size (see below).

I assume that your 1 ac high elevation pond will be nutrient poor with water visibilities of being able to see a white disk (Cool-Whip lid) or can lid 7 to 12 ft deep. How clear has the water usually been this past year? High clarity means the pond will produce fewer pounds of fish per acre. Literature indicates that natural productivity for trout water is in the range of 4 to 40 lbs of RBT per acre. Standard length of a 1 pound RBT is 13"-14".

Thus number to stock will depend on water clarity. Since you are not feeding pellets and if your water is clear with low productivity, you can stock higher numbers if they are 4"-6" long (50-100) and fewer if they are 10"-12" (40-60). The general rule for natural communities is the fewer that you stock will result in faster larger top end growth due to less competition and more available food for each fish. Feeding pellets to the trout will allow you to double or triple the stocking numbers. Others may have alternative plans.

If you stock this spring use the more conservative number and if this fall the higher number. Higher in fall stocking because minnows will have more time to create more forage fish. You can ladder stock, adding several every year or two, depending on harvest numbers and survival rates. Or just go with the original number and restock when RBT are old and numbers are dwindling. Restocking with larger trout will require the add stock are larger individuals of 10"-12" to prevent predatory loss of big trout eating smallest trout. Keep us updated to your progress. We are interested in this project since very few members here have a natural fishery of just trout and minnows. We can learn a lot from your experience.

Update. Further reading indicated that ponds of "average" fertility can NATURALLY produce around 200 lbs of trout per acre. That is 200 1 lb trout or 66 three pound trout. Thus there is a wide range of possible numbers and or size of RBT that can be grown naturally in this one ac high elevation pond. IMO water clarity will be a key factor as to the amount of trout the pond will support. Regardless, I would stock at my recommended numbers and watch what happens with their growth rate. Stock lower numbers and watch how they grow. If they grow quickly to 16"-18" after 1-2 years and minnows are still abundant, then fertility and pond conditions are good and the pond will likely support adding more trout. Again use a minnow trap during pond visits to monitor how many minnows the baited trap will capture. Be aware that bird and animal predators can take a toll on trout numbers; sometimes causing up to 40%-60% mortality.

If it were my pond I would consider having the caretaker feed the trout 1/4" pellets just once a week using 50 lbs of feed per year,; feeding at the same spot, same time each day. During mid-summer when water temps are above 70F the trout may not come to the surface for pellets. Once per week feeding will allow you and the caretaker to routinely assess the number and sizes of the trout to monitor overall how well they are doing during the open water season. From these observation sessions you will better know when to add, remove, and manage the trout numbers.

Provide the names of your local warm water fish hatcheries & possible web links and we will see if there are any panfish that might fit into your minnow - trout fishery.

Bill C - I'm still curious about the YP and RBT combination as this thread is questioning. I understand we don't know of anywhere it has been done, but it sure has me thinking of the possibility someday to try it.... And I am not trying to say that Captwho should do it.

My question is, where would the YP go after they spawn? Do they stay in the shallows with the brush (like the FHM)? At what age/size would they move into more open water to be preyed upon by RBT (hypothetically)? My thinking is that the RBT will prey on the YP, if they can. If LMB will prefer YP over BG, seems like RBT would too (more fusiform) if their living areas are ever in the same zone. Also, TJ has used HSB to "help" control BG, but do HSB prey upon YP too? Again, I am thinking RBT would be similar to the HSB situation.

Edit- also, stocking numbers of the RBT in Shorty's note above equates to something like 750 RBT per acre.... Wow....
Of course we don't know the size they are stocking which relates to pounds.

Keep in mind that Sylvan is a small public lake in Custer State Park and that the harvest rates on RBT are likely very high.

We were there in late June and woke up to a dusting of snow one morning. I remember seeing male FHM minnows in spawning colors that were jockeying for spots on the north shore at during that trip. We caught a lot of RBT on that trip but most of them were hooked 30 to 50 yards off the bank using small spoons (lil' Jake's) that imitated minnows, long casts, light line, and fast retrieves were the ticket. Other folks fishing nears us using night crawlers and fishing much closer to shore had very little luck.

I wondered how they could add that many each year without problems. I realize now I didn't read it right. It says "put and take", and I was thinking "hook and release". I figured somebody had to be taking them!!! duh,

Ok, heres the only hatchery that has a site.
http://www.pkgills.com/
Pk gills

I also have bought feed in anticipation of feeding them.
40-60% predation? how fast are we talking about? What birds and what kind of animals hunt trout?

IMO what predators you will have to contend with will depend a lot on your surrounding terrain. Please describe it.

Edit: For example, these guys live in Arizona...and, by the way, the guy's method of returning a trout to the water sucks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leF8X3PwdwM

He pitched the trout in that way to feed the eagle and so he could get a picture of the eagle catching it.
Up to 40%-60% does not mean always a high rate of loss will occur, but it could be that high where fish predators are common. I'm not familiar with animals/birds that eat fish in the region of your pond. Check with AZ Game & Fish about possible fish eating above water predators.

I know, but my thought was, what if the eagle didn't go after it? How many trout you willing to heave for a photo OP?

A question about the FHM on PK GKGills site, isnt that a bluntnose?? just curious..


Capt.WHo if your willing for getting the importation permit ColdsSprings in Utah may be an option. ColdspringsTroutfarm I think is the name. It will give you more options, Like brook Brown and Tiger.


The Sylvan Lake is pretty cool, but gets a ton of pressure. This is where the "Water Mark" In national treasure 2 is at. The FHM population is unbelievable and may get its own thread at some point.
My first thought was "man there are a lot of minnows" then it was "man there has to be millions of minnow""

It is mountains (6500 ft) with pine trees and juniper. There are several lakes about 30-50 miles away that have osprey, eagles and other predator birds. I saw a GBH once. For mammals we have raccoons, bobcat, mountain lion, bears, coyote, and other similar animals.

"A question about the FHM on PK GKGills site, isnt that a bluntnose?" No - the picture is pretty representative of FHM. A bluntnose will typically have a more definite spot at the base of the tail and the dark lateral body band will extend across the gill and onto the nose of bluntnose. I will get a link for a good picture of a BNM.
http://www.dictionaryoffish.com/bluntnose_minnow.htm
Scroll down for a good bluntnose pic.
http://www.marietta.edu/~biol/biomes/streamtour.htm
Once you capture bluntnose and put them in a bucket of water the lateral band and caudal spot tend to become less noticeable.


Notice with bluntnose how the scales appear crowded and slightly different shape in front of the dorsal fin; an important feature for bluntnose. This feature makes them easy to identify when they are in a bucket of water.
http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/bbrown/bluntnose+minnow+dorsal+view.jpg.html

A local pond guy told be he has been loosing about one 10" bass a day to a bald eagle. Osprey are also good fish catchers. The eagle has removed just about all the bass from this small bass only pond.

If after you get the trout established and things are working okay and you still have an intense desire to have panfish, I would contact one of the warm water fish farms near you to see if they would custom raise for you some bluegill to 7"-8" long. Then ask if they would pick out for you just the males to stock into your pond. Expect to pay extra maybe double for these adult male bluegill. They need to be that big before you can positively identify the males. This was discussed in past issues of PBoss magazine by Condello, Baird and myself. There is also some past discussion of the technique on this forum. Adding just the males will provide the panfish option and none of the problems of panfish overpopulation in a trout pond.
BEHEMOTH BLUEGILLS IN SMALL PONDS. In Part I, Cody, Condello and Baird provide the necessary details of how to accurately sex bluegills as the first step to produce trophies in small waters. Mar-Apr 2006.
GROWING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS; Part II. Cody, Condello and Baird present info about size, growth, stocking densities, and choosing proper male bluegills. May-Jun 2006.
THE ART OF MANAGING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS. Cody, Condello and Baird conclude their three part article about raising trophy male bluegills. Discussed are best size of ponds, natural foods, supplemental feeding, angling implications, females only, and creative ways to use male bluegills. A standard weight table for bluegill is included. Jul-Aug 2006.