Well....it happens to the best made plans.. Previously on the PB forum I ran across the words 'bucket stocked' I wondered what that meant since I assumed it was common for pond owners to use a bucket to put things in or take things out of their pond. But I believe I discovered through first hand experience that the term 'bucket stocked' is a BAD thing that happens when someone else feels they are helping you by putting some unwanted fish in YOUR pond.

Last night around 6pm I'm running a leaf blower up by the front of the house and our dog goes nuts barking and running like crazy for the front corner of our property by the edge of the pond. He is going like crazy and barking at something just in the edge of the woods. Usually this means someone is walking down the road with another dog or it is a squirrel, but this time it was much more persistent and he wasn't going any closer to whatever it was.

I turned off the machine and started walking down there and then it happens. A stranger walks off the road, through a small clump of trees, walks down to the pond and dumps a half full white 5 gallon bucket of 'something' into the pond. He was going to turn and leave but the dog had him cornered and then he saw me coming.

He sheepishly introduced himself as the neighbor 2 doors down (who I have never met) He said he sold his house and was moving out this weekend. He had 'some fish' in an aquarium and said 'I dumped them in your pond as I didn't want them anymore'

what???? AARRGGHHH!!!! After all that work of trying so hard to keep unwanted fish out and to put the correct number of fish in and to time the stocking more or less in a reasonable fashion, I tried so hard to start a forage base by knowing exactly what I had in there, and then recently adding a few more carefully selected small panfish, now in one swoop of dirty aquarium water I have who knows how many fish of unknown type, size, and health, plus who knows what new diseases or aquarium organisms or plants?

I didn't want to rip on a neighbor especially me being the new guy on the block, but i did try to weasel out of him what he threw in there and he was quite vague. He only would admit that there was 1 bullhead that he thought would do 'well' in my pond. What! of all things to keep in a home aquarium, a bullhead??!!?? And why would I want a bullhead in my pond?

He wouldn't disclose anything else, only change the subject and talk about how much he will miss his house as he goes to a condo, nice weather, nice house you folks have here etc.

I wished him well for his upcoming move and that was that.

Now I'm nervous about what in the world to do!

Is it easy to catch a lone bullhead this time of year? How does one try this? What does the bullhead eat if he does stay and starts growing? Any helpful effects of having one and only one bullhead?

In retrospect, he probably was the person who put the goldfish in the pond from time to time and some of them have survived the draining, redigging and refilling and so the appearance of unexpected goldfish last spring is starting to make sense a bit...

I'm just hoping he didn't dump in a bunch of green sunfish, bluegill etc.

I guess nothing to do know except wait.

I can't put a sign up that says 'no bucket stocking please'. I don't want to be a rude neighbor and put up a no trespassing sign. Maybe a 'don't feed the fish' sign? How about 'Michigan DEQ research pond, no fishing and no stocking!'

anyone been there before and had this happen? Consequences I'm likely to face?

Good grief what a tool. I believe I'd have been a little more unpleasant than you if I caught someone doing that to one of my ponds.

Unfortunately without some sort of details as to exactly what he dumped it's impossible to gauge the potential results. Do you have much in the way of predation? If so it may be a moot point as it's likely an aquarium fish isn't going to be able to survive well...lack of significant prey response will probably make them a meal. If you're lacking significant predators then you'll just have to hope there was only 1 bullhead and not more...

Most people don't keep native species in their home aquarium. However the bullhead is not usually kept in an aquarium. It stands to reason that if he had normal aquarium fish that he would simply take them back to petco. The goldfish were probably extra feeders for some predator.

Irresponsible people do ruin the best laid plans. If its that accessible from the road I would post it simply from a liability standpoint.

I did probe a bit to try to find out what he put in, I said..'if there are any tropical fish in that bucket they aren't going to last the winter' He seemed to understand that and indicated by his silence that there were no warm water species. I imagine he probably had a few fish caught in a local lake, including the bullhead, but you are right I'll never know.

I only have FHM, GSH, a few crayfish, a few 2" RES and long ears, no predators.

What do bullheads eat and what is a good bait to try to catch one?

Fish food, what would you put on the sign? simply no trespassing? Kind of an eyesore to have that right out by the road... BUt I agree with the liability thing..

"Please get permission from owner before fishing or swimming. Releasing your unwanted fish is strictly prohibited.

That's the best I could come up with that was nice but firm.

Ask yourself this question. What native predators would people think were "cool" in an aquarium?

I am not a pond expert by any stretch. I do have a lot of experience keeping fish in an aquarium.

In my mind there is a huge difference between being a rude neighbor, and protecting your investment. Most non-pond owning folks simply don't understand what's involved in managing for a specific purpose. To them it's just a hole filled with water that fish swim in.

I would be putting up those signs, and tactfully making sure the remaining neighbors were aware of your plans, and weren't likely to do anything to compromise those plans.

If anything, this unfortunate incident does a great job of illustrating how bucket stocking works.....many times people just can't figure out how those fish got in there. Well, THIS is how. Just think, if your dog hadn't alerted you, you would never have known he was there.

Sorry to hear that. Bad deal.

Has it happened to me? I hope not but.......

I can see where people would do it. Some guys working restoring our 1900 era barn commented "caught any big ole bass out of the creek and put in there yet?" and had to explain that I was using a carefully laid out stocking plan and a big ole bass would royally screw up that plan and that I might have to shoot anyone that did it.

We have an aquarium in our farm office that our accountant/office manager takes care of. Had goldfish in it in the past and more recently put some RES and CNBG for her to take care of. I think she likes the fish in the office. Also caught and put a few half inch BH in there that I had netted this summer out of our old pond (where we have BH problems). The BH were getting pretty big and told her I would need to get them out as they got too big. Told her no way, shape or form they were to go in the big pond. She understands that, as she and her husband do fish. But she just could not bring herself to destroy them. Point is, people get attached to their fish and just envision them living on someplace else once they get rid of them.

So I can see very well how "good intentions" can screw up well laid plans.

SNRUB you are so right. It is funny how emotionally attached you can get to the process of caring for the pond, as if it is a pet! You groom it, measure its ph and DO, slowly plan for stocking, protect from invasives and unwanteds, etc I read yours sentence about 'I might have to shoot...' I can see where seeing someone with a bucket walking towards your pond would give you that 'kill instinct' or at least I need to stop that person at all costs.

And I agree, the neighbors do it innocently not knowing how easily they can wreck a lot of work and also a process that takes years to evolve.

I agree that neighbors look at it like it is a hole of water and that it is infinitely better to feel like the fish are enjoying their new home rather than flushing them down the toilet.

I also VERY MUCH agree that in broad daylight and me in the front yard, this guy easily would have slipped in dumped the bucket and melted back into the trees and I would never have known without the warning behavior of our dog.

Mabye the puppy stage is ending and the hundreds of destroyed items from the garage and the tools that are all dragged out in the yard and chewed up will be worth while.

The sad thing my wife says, is that the UPS and USPS delivery people are here bringing me packages so often that he doesn't even bark at them anymore...time to cut back on shopping online...

Now if there were some catfish and/or asian carp in that bucket...I might have to track him down

Being an aquarium enthusiast for many years I have killed lots of fish. The most humane way is to put them in a bowl or bucket of water and put them in the freezer. Their metabolism slows down until they die. Either put them back where you got them or freeze them.

It is very irresponsible to release these unwanted fish into a local creek or river if you don't know they already exist there.

Fish don't have feelings! Eat, poop and make fry...That's about it.

Hope he didn't think snake heads were cool fish.

That's funny and scary!

Canyon, I understand your reluctance to stir the pot with a neighbor, but not only did this guy possibly ruin YOUR pond. It's also a pretty serious criminal act...An act that could cost you a boat load of cash to correct. I think if it were my pond and I'd caught the guy red-handed, I'd call the sheriff/game warden to at least have the guy questioned on what species were involved.

Rainman...really? Is the criminal act the trespassing? or is it that you can't put pet fish in a private pond? I guess I'd love to know what the laws are that he broke so i can better understand the situation. I agree, part of me is really wishing I was a little more gruff and insisted on knowing what it was before I left him off the property.

PM sent, but the guy that dumped "pet" fish in your water probably violated all sort of state law and if it were my pond, I would want to recover the value of my fish lost and expenses if you need to remediate...

Another reason to contact a game warden is for simple CYA....If the guy dumped an invasive species into your pond that Wildlife enforcement officers trace back to your pond, who do you think the State/USF&W will come after without "proof" you were not involved???

Hey Canyon, REX is right! I would call the MDNR, PRONTO!!!

Fill them accurately on what happened, they are the ones you want to talk to, and I'll bet they will be quite interested.

The aquarium trade is pretty loose and you can get practically anything online. Get caught with something illegal in Michigan, and it could be your, well, worst nightmare!

Like REX said, Cover Your Ass.

Being a nice neighbor is all fine and well, and that's what we hope for so we all get along, but we live in the real world. If your neighbor was being thoughtful and considerate, being a nice neighbor, he would not have trespassed on your property and dumped his junk in your pond.

I would get tough and get the Gestapo involved. No need to be nice to people who have already violated you and your property.

At least the guy would have to tell them what he put in your pond. If the other fish were tropicals it could give you piece of mind.

Right ON Cecil!

Canyon, get in touch with the MDNR and start the process.

See what's up!

Rex is correct - if you have a banned species swimming in your pond you are now liable. Not worth the risk...I know some guys who are dealing with State and Federal issues regarding fish, stocking, etc. Not pretty.

Isn't a state permit required to stock fish in Michigan? In either case, it is never legal to stock fish in waters you have no ownership in, or permission.

A bucket stocking in a drainage catch pond is how the Snakehead was introduced. The ONLY reason the person that did it didn't get Federal prison time is because the statute of limitations had expired before he was discovered.

Not within the boundaries of Michigan, if they are legal fish. I think it's a tad difficult to bring them in from another state, as esshup has found out. I'll let him tell you about that!

Being in possession could have some explaining, so, nip it in the bud right off and find out what's up! All I can say.

Don't know about Michigan but here in Indiana a stocking permit is needed fir public waters, not private.

Man sorry to hear that I hope it turns out ok. It is amazing how clueless some people are. Sure would be nice if people would ask permission to access private land. A simple hey I am moving and was wondering if I could turn my fish loose in your pond. I do commend you for being polite.

We have a couple duck ponds (maybe 4 or 5 feet deep) that get flooded during very very heavy rains so they are full of all kinds of different fish. When my son was younger, we released his large old pet gold fish that had outgrown its tank. It was nearly white, and he was periodically able to see it over the next two years (not sure how it survived the GBH). I think he was happy about that and I was happy for him. I understand why folks release fish. I think it is one step closer to sanity than those that dump off a dog or cat somewhere to convince themselves that they gave them a chance. Unfortunately, it is often thoughtless and rude. Sorry to be so critical, but that is how I see it. My pet fish was released into my private pond, not someone else's pond.

That's why there are very few if no pond stocking companies in Mi.

Here's the deal. If the pond has permanent water inflow or outflow structures in place (like an overflow drain) then the pond owner has to get a permit from MDNR. Since you are the pond owner, now you could be in trouble with the MDNR because of him.

I'd call the MDNR ASAP, tell them what happened, and get them to get a list of fish from the "helpful" neighbor. He's moving out of the area, he's dumping his problems on YOU. I wouldn't have been near as nice.....

I don't remember if it's a $50,000 or a $250,000 fine for having live asian carp in Michigan. While I doubt that he put any in your pond, what were to happen if he did, and 2-3 years down the road the DNR just happened to see one in your pond? How would you explain that?

Since I'll bet you have no idea what his new address will be, I'd get the MDNR there asap so they still can talk to him.

Any update on whether the MDNR was contacted?

I tried to contact someone, left messages, emails, no reply from MDNR.

While I'm waiting for them to call or contact I'm stressing about if I did the right thing. Nothing like putting your pond on their radar! next thing I know they may come out and say, who gave you a permit to dig out this retention pond (was originally a way to collect storm water runoff when the street was put in 20 yrs ago). Or they may say, we can see in aerial photos that there were about 30 plants worth of cattails on one side of the pond, they are gone now. You are now in trouble for disturbing a natural wetland habitat. Or maybe I did something wrong moving the sediment from the bottom of the pond without proper disposal permit or a host of other no nos.

Then they might ask what fish I stocked in there and ask me to prove it. I don't have receipts for the FA and GSH I put in.

Going to the law to complain about 'mote that is in your neighbor's eye' makes me worried that I might end up on the short end of the stick.. so if they contact me I may try to explain the 'hypotheticals' in this situation but all the encounters I've heard of or read of with the MDNR is that they are interested in finding a way to use any nitpicky rule or even their interpretation of any rule they choose to use to just be sure somehow someone ends up with a ticket every time. I haven't seen any of them ever act in a helpful or friendly fashion.

ideas?

Talk about being caught between a rock and a hard place.

That's tough cc. I wish I had an answer for you.

Yeah... and the tilapia I put in there... no one can decide with the fuzzy laws in michigan if that is legal or not. I think it is legal, other PB members in Michigan use them too.

My pond does not have natural inlet or outlet. There is a conduit from the storm water holding tank at the end of the street into my pond. It is true that if the water came up too fast the pond could overflow its banks into the woods but there is no other stream or pond for it to go in. I would say that would be true of any other hole in the ground in any one else's front yard, that if we get enough water there is always a way fish can get out.

But you are correct, if the wrong fish gets in there and I can't prove anything....

I think for now I just let it be. If I have to catch a lone bullhead out at some point so be it. Do GBH get bullheads? How about birds of prey that dive into ponds?

If end up with tons of unwanted ones I can always pump dry and start over. If I did ever pump dry and start over, I would take that opportunity to put in a liner or would hopefully by that time know from other PB members if the new polymer sealants work or not and then wouldn't have to pump so much water into the pond anyway.

Officer, the only way that I "know" any fish got in here is by the dog barking and seeing him with the bucket. Maybe that's how the other fish got in there?

Cattails? Must have been the muskrats. I wondered why they left. Maybe they ate themselves out of house and home??

It's a quarter mil fine, 5 years in one of our fine brick motels where you get 3 squares of fake bologna, plus reparations to the state. These are up to penalties.

Gotta be careful what I say, someone from the state capitol Lansing is probably monitoring this board right now! In fact saw a lurker post for the first time from Lansing Mi, I wonder if that is the MDNR going incognito?

Welcome EricMurphy, are you in the Lansing area? Welcome to PB, are you new or a long time lurker? (saw your post on the 'Getting old: Painful back pain thread' Perhaps you are a neurosurgeon?

Good to know others in Michigan follow along the PB forum. Any advice on Michigan rules/regs, stocking, good or bad experiences with the MI DNR? (I think now called DEQ)

I remember reading of a guy that had HSB in his pond in MI. Got caught and they made him nuke the pond. I think that's all that came of that.

True true esshup on the muskrat effect on cattails. I have big holes in the banks this spring but no muskrats to be seen, either they ran out of food or the dog got to them.

Tilapia are now legal in MI, that, the state verified for me on their rules....Transporting them into the state however, is a fricking regulatory nightmare that the state vet can change on a whim.

Going incognito, they would hail from Texas, but the pics they post would have flora and fauna indigenous of only Michigan. That's how you tell

I know of a number of people that have had bad experiences with the MDNR, but they were poachers. The previous admin. combined the DNR with the DEQ, and that was a huge mess. The current admin. fixed that mess and are known to be fish friendly, at least from an Aquaculture standpoint. Problem is, that a new weasel is gaining ground with the lemmings, and that could set us back.

I also do know of a couple of instances when the Super Gestapo was formed (merged) by the previous admin. and that was true hell for their intended victims, but they held out and won.

DEQ is a separate entity from the MDNR. Both have quite a bit of power. One thing you do not want is to be on the DEQ's radar, unless you have a lot of money and are connected in high places

CC, does your pond have permanent inflow and outflow structures in place? (i.e. pipes would be one example)

My guess is since it's on private property the MDNR won't even get back with you. Probably won't think it's worth their time. Sad but true.

Well, someone did finally reply today. Here is the reply:

----
At this time I would tell the homeowner not to worry about anything. If they were just typical aquarium fish they probably won’t survive the winter in the pond. If there is some sort of invasive fish that was released, it will not be able to go anywhere without an outlet. If over time some fish are noticed in the pond that don’t appear to be native fish you can have the homeowner contact us again.

If you need anything further don’t hesitate to contact me.
----

I don't like the part where they say that if some non-native species was found in the pond later we can worry about it then. Hmmm....

I guess for now I leave it as is that I at least tried to report it...

No surprise there.

Now if it was something THEY should worry about as in grass carp escaping or trout that were planted without proper health testing they'd be over immediately. I know of someone in Michigan that was forced to drain their pond and kill the fish due to brook trout that were planted that weren't properly tested.

Did you specifically say you hoped they could ask the guy exactly what he planted? Did you contact the state or did you contact your nearest CO? Seems if you pressed a CO hard enough he would at least make the effort to find out for you.

An ounce of prevention....well done, I suspect you are in the clear, but should still sweat the neighbor to identify what was released in your pond.

Maybe its time to get Gweedo involved. A little friendly persuasion to help the guys memory along. A few broken fingers..... a broken leg...... ya know, just a little something to help the memory along so hes can remember what he dumped in the pond.

Stop by either before or after you pay said visit...SMB and HSB are making their Fall feeding runs and fishing is solid.

You laugh but I knew a chemist whose place of employment did business with some folks in Chicago. He said they told his boss if he ever got any deadbeats to give them a call and they'd take care of it. So his boss did get a guy that wasn't paying his bill so he gave the Chicago guys a call. The man that had nothing but excuses when it came to paying his bill paid up really, really, fast.