I would like to create a new pond on my property, but it would be no larger than 0.05 acres. I'm happy to invest in aeration, and to make it as deep as is necessary for safe winters here in Ohio. I don't need to fish it very often, and don't need to eat any fish. Are there any non-koi or goldfish that I can support. Maybe hybrid BG and CC?

In that small of a pond of 0.05ac, I would consider using just female fish or just males depending on the species. You will not have reproduction to cause problems and fish present will just grow, grow. Depth consider at least 6ft and 7-8ft would be better if it can be built that deep based on shape (2100-2300sqft). If you aerate in winter and a few hours each day during open water season fish survival should not be a problem. Male BG, female YP, single sex BCP, one CC, maybe one or two HSB or one LMB or SMB. Pellet trained would do best thus you would not have to try to keep natural foods abundant enough for good growth.

Wow! Thanks for the reply. So could I even put LMB in there at the right percentages- Also, with just one sex, would I need to commit to some kind of restocking schedule?

Restocking would depend on harvest and natural mortality. Normally with no harvest you would need to add only 2-4 replacement fish every two to 3 yrs based on who died. If you pellet feed you will be able to monitor who is still alive and feeding regularly. Initially I would stock only one pellet trained LMB. More could be added but you then risk reproduction and an unbalanced system. You could use some of the natural swimming pond concepts - methods and maintain 'pretty' clear water on a regular basis with visibilities of 5-7ft. Reproducing fish will often tend to reduce water clarities due to the small ones over eating the water filtering - clearing zooplankton.

Well thanks again-I'm excited to learn its possible. I was getting a little depressed reading about minimum size requirements, but it didn't occur to me to keep repro down by just stocking single sex. So glad I joined the forum tonight. I'm sure I'll have a million q's in the future. Thankyou

If LMB are your passion, then you could stock pellet trained LMB (10-15) both sexes and just feed them daily to keep them growing. Cecil Baird1 has done that in one of his ponds. He could provide you with an estimate of the number of pounds of bass that could be grown in 0.05ac. If the adult bass do not keep the offspring eaten then periodic draining and restocking would be easy in a 0.5 ac pond. Another option would be to stock only HSB and feed them. No worry about reproduction, great fighting fish and you could grow 10-15 in 0.05ac. Once you catch a HSB 16"-20" (2.1-4.3 lb) you will forget about LMB as an angler's sport fish.

AB maybe forget game fish all together. There is a group called something like north american native fish association. Go find their web page and see what other cool native fish you can find for your fish pond.

Great ideas- thanks- just the idea that my young sons can cast a line and catch a fish is all I need- no problem to catch and release or to go out there and feed them. How does one aerate in the winter?

To aerate in the winter, you basically use the same system that you use in the summer, just move the diffuser to approximately 1/4 the total pond depth. 8' deep pond? Have the diffuser at 2' depth for the winter. Just move the diffuser so it keeps the ice thawed all the way to shore. That way, if anything (or anybody) go for a swim mid-winter, they can reach the shore to get out and not have to climb back up on the ice.

If your sons want to fish, have them use single hooks and have the hooks barbless (or pinch the barb down). Use a net to get the fish out of the water and keep handling to a minimum. Try and get the fish back into the water as fast as possible.

If they fish a lot, and the fish get educated, switch from artificials to live bait, but watch for them swallowing the hook. If the fish get hook shy, they might have to be replaced with less smart fish.

Great-thanks for advice-

Angling techniques, catching & releasing, and hook smart fish are detailed topics that warrant lengthy discussions in themselves. All become more important topics the smaller the pond becomes.

A flow through coldwater pond can be quite small that is fed by an artesian well or just a well.

My 1/10 acre (59 by 88 feet) trout pond produces 500 lbs. of brook or brown trout after planting at 6 to 8 inches and a 2 year period.

I've produced brown trout up to 12 lbs., rainbows just under 10 lbs. and brook trout over 6 lbs.

At 45 gpm 24/7 from a well from some time in May to the end of September, sometimes in to October my water stays about 60 degrees from top to bottom except for the top few inches that are in the low 60's on really hot days.

I do deal with prolific Chara and some filamentous algae although not much of the FA. Iron discolors the water to a smokey green but seems to have no effect on the trout. It also acts as a light barrier somewhat to Chara growth although I still get my share of it.

Electrical costs are about $100.00 per month but I recoup that when I sell the fish to a taxidermy market.

Some pics of trout out of the small 1/10th acre pond.

Is there away to measure the flow rate from an artisian well during the hottest times of the summer and calculate a rough pond size that would support trout in central Indiana?

Yes.

If you're talking about surface flow if you could concentrate the flow into a PVC pipe you could measure it by timing how long it takes to fill a known size of container, i.e., a 5 gallon bucket. If it's a lot of flow you could install a flow meter on the pipe.

If it was a well punched into a confined aquifer, AES/Pentair sells various flow meters at various costs that are easy to install.

Cecil in the second to last why didn't you comb your hair? Ya hungover Canuk

Sorry, I did not ask the question clearly enough. If I know the flow rate out of the pipe from an artesian well, can I approximate the maximum pond size (and shape) such that I could keep trout year round (small enough to keep the temp down midsummer)? I can figure out the flow rate mid summer as you suggested, but do not know what a "safe" maximum pond size might be. I understand that it is heat gain from the air minus heat loss from the input water and surrounding ground, but do not know a practical way to calculate the actual pond size.

Awesome trout! those are all pellet fed then?

Yes but to do trout without a spring running into the pond, one needs a well to keep the water cooler than 70F with dissolved oxygen top to bottom during the hottest summer days and months. Trout can be easily raised in a pond from early October to early June in Ohio. In June the cold water at the bottom of the pond looses dissolved oxygen and it forces the trout into the too warm water above.

Cecil - please tell us more about the LMbass that you raised in your larger pond in terms of pounds per acre, time of production, and final sizes at harvest. When we know those details we can use that data for raising HSB in a small pond.

Cecil, I've never seen that table top looking like that before!

I'm happy to put in a well, but where is my overflow going to go? Is there any other way to keep water cool?

Same ways that you keep your house cool. Pumping from a well (or an artesian well) is an open geothermal system and is a very efficient way to go. I would have used my artesian well for heating and cooling my house but open geothermal systems are prohibited in Boone County Indiana. My efforts to use this water for heating and cooling my house were opposed by the county lawyer and surveyor, and my attempts to get the county commissioners to support a variance were supported by most the commissioners but they never rendered a decision. I finally hired a company outside of my county to install a traditional non-geothermal system. Now the water simply dumps on the ground. Efficient small-town government in action!

Maybe some members with seasonal annual trout will provide some pictures. Cost of digging and operating a well will exceed the cost of building the pond. You can raise numerous other quality fish with less cost and effort compared to the trout cold water well method. You can still have trout as several members here do. You just do not have them year round. IMO try the other fish first and then if you don't like the results then look into digging a well.
Example of what HSB will do in a small pond after 16 months. Who would not enjoy several of these fish?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=375896#Post375896

My well and pump installed was only $2000.00 back in 2001. I think the pond was also $2000.00.

Prices have changed a lot since then Cecil! I had the house well replaced in 2008 and it ran $3,500. 4" well, 68' deep, 25 gpm 3/4 hp pump.

All,

Here is a Rainbow Trout that was introduced in mid December 2014 in Central Louisiana. I put in 22 and this is the first I have caught at the end of April. His weight is about the same as when I put them in the pond but there was 2 that were smaller out of the 22 so until I catch another, this is what I have to go by.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kS1hu39HUXg/U2_wEPz7zVI/AAAAAAAAJGY/lllGRqDfkcQ/s816/CAM00431.jpg

That's what all the young whippersnappers say!

Couppedeville -thanks for the trout picture. Hopefully others will show some put & take trout pictures.
Couppedeville It was eating size compared to some stream sized brookies that I ate back in college. Are you feeding your trout on a regular basis??
Hopefully Cecil will provide us some numbers for his pellet bass growing project several years ago. I know he has pictures.

What do you want to know about my pellet trained bass? I had up to 400 up to 6 lbs. in a .62 acre pond with no issues. Keep in mind I was overflowing my trout pond into this pond 24/7. I had up to 500 lbs. of trout in that .10 acre pond that received 45 gpm of water 25/7.

Bob I was trying to be like my hero Bob-O!

Bill,

Yes, I was feeding Aquamax 400, 500 & 600 mixture all the way up to April when the water temperature started to warm and FA took over my pond, up to 85% coverage. At this point, the feed could not reach the water so I cut off the feeder. I fed 5 times a day with the timer set on 1 second in the morning and 2 second in the evening. I have a Texas Hunter as my feeder.

I did witness the HSB & CC and a few CNBG feeding all winter long so my thought process was to carry on carrying on.I had a bloom for 2-1/2 years straight until the FA took over. As I pulled the FA out near the bank, the water was tannin brown and could see 3-4 feet deep.

I am in the process of battling the excess nutrients with culture bacteria and did spray about 40% of the surface of the pond with Cutrine about 2 weeks ago. Hopefully I will be able to catch a few more before the water temperature reaches it stressful limit for the trout.

Couppe

All great things to think about- thanks- I should have two rough estimates on my build costs in the next week or so- I only have an acre of property- and the wife won't let me cut out half of our house to make the pond bigger- I can maybe get it to about 90 feet by 60-70 feet (triangle shape). Again I don't mind the well idea, but what to do with all that overflow water is a problem. I'm sure we'd be incorporating a nice big waterfall on one end ($$) and I guess a diffuser near the center. Does that sound like adequate aeration? And I'm wondering if more aeration allows one to get away with a smaller pond as far as maintaining numbers of gamefish? Again if I could do anything I would maintain a blue gill, LMB pond- but HSB and CC, or trout all sound great too. I really appreciate the input.

Couppe, be careful with the Cutrine. Trout don't tolerate much copper in the water.

Sorry I misunderstood you.

All I can tell you for sure regarding earthen ponds is my pond is 55 X 89 feet with steep sides with a max depth of 9 feet and it stays cool enough and can handle up to 500 pounds of trout at 45 gpm. I use a rule of thumb of 12 pounds per gpm, which I think I found in some UK publication. I estimate volume of water at 100,000 gallons if that helps.

The standard rule for raceways is 50 pounds of trout per gpm.

You have three issues to deal with: Water temperature, oxygen, and nitrogen waste products. If you can keep water temps in the 55 to 65 F range during the hottest part of the summer you are good to go regarding temps. However you also need good oxygen levels so I try and aerate my well water before it enters the pond.

I used to use a packed column but don't believe it's necessary and now just dump the water into a small lined pit where it's directed to the trout pond or any other pond I may be filling or topping off. The plastic media would plug with iron deposits and was a real pain to clean with muriatic acid every year. I also run the water out of the pit underground downhill to an upturned PVC elbow to cause it to cascade out into the trout pond to also aerate the water.

I use a diffuser in the center deepest part of the pond but only run it at night when temps are above 75 F.

Your coldwater flow not only keeps temps down and oxygen levels up, by aeration, and due to coldwater able to hold more oxygen, it's also flushes out nitrogen waste products the fish give off though their gills and their feces. Trout are very sensitive to ammonia, nitrites, AND nitrates.

If you can spare around $20.00 for the book Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder (available on Amazon), he has some good information on what you are asking in one of the chapters. He shows how to raise trout on just a few gallons per minute of groundwater flow.

True but if it's hard water it may not be so bad. I have a Canadian Ontario Ministry Trout Farming text where they routinely use copper products in hard water.

Esshup,

Thanks for the heads up, this really means a lot to me for the advise.

Actually, I was aware of the trout not being able to handle to much of the copper before applying. I thought real hard and worked through the "What If" scenario.

If I do nothing, the FA will consume the entire pond and we would no longer be able to feed nor fish. The temperature is rising and withing a couple of months, the trout would be at the temperature past suitable for life so I would lose the remaining trout.

With the FA covering most of the pond, the water is mostly clear underneath indicating, so I would assume, the FA consuming the nutrients that normally algae would be using for a bloom. With no algae bloom, less survival of the new spawn, less survival, maybe or possibly making an impact on forage for the bass. Remember, I have been having an algae bloom for 2-1/2 years straight & I am concerned that my forage to bass ratio may come to the equal point quicker than expected. I have just started harvesting the <7.75"CNBG & BG 2 months ago and have been catching 5" to 7" LMB, (3). My limited experience has me concerned that my LMB my have spawned late last year, Sept. Oct. time frame.

If I applied the cutrine, I could possibly knock down the FA bloom in short order and get my algae bloom going again, open water so we can fish, able to feed CNBG & BG post spawn and get their weight back up.

Down side to applying? I could lose my remaining 21 trout, if that many survived, which I would be losing within a couple of months anyway.

So, with this beginner thinking process, I narrowed down my best option matched to the overall good of this body of water according to what my desires are and push forward with the application of cutrine.

Now will be my time to figure out how can I once again introduce Rainbow trout this coming winter and avoid the nutrient overload.....

Sorry AB13 on taking over your thread....that was not my intension....

Couppe

PM sent.

All good- learning a lot

Here's a put and take trout from around here.



I believe some of Cecil's trout could probably eat this one for lunch.

I like to examine what these put and take trout have been eating. I have found power bait, sticks, rocks, and ants in their stomach. I once caught a nicer one that had a 4" chartreuse plastic lizard in his stomach. No hook or line. I guess someone threw it out and he ate it.

I want to say the one I caught only had a few bullhead minnows in his stomach. It was the fist time I fly fished and caught him....now my 16 year old is a fly fishing nut every chance he gets.....

As a taxidermist I've found some of those plastic baits in their stomaches that the trout couldn't pass. Recently mounted a close to 4 lb. brown that had a large swim bait in its stomach. The fish would have slowly starved to death.

It's too bad some of those green carp anglers aren't more careful.

Cecil Baird says for pellet trained bass he had up to 400 bass up to 6 lbs. in a .62 acre pond with no issues. The pond received fresh water input from an overflow of a small trout pond.

For conservative calculation let's say each bass averaged 2.5 lbs (16.5" Std Lgn-Wt) which calculates to 1612 lbs bass biomass. In reality the poundage was more like 2451 lb/ac since the average bass size was more like 3.8 to 4.0 lbs. I saw pictures of those bass at harvest.

Since AB13's 0.05 ac pond may not have well water in-flow, I will use 1600lb/acre as bass biomass weight. Thus AB13 could raise 80 lbs of pellet trained bass/fish in his 0.05ac pond. This assumes good aeration, attention to water quality issues, and an occasional small harvest fish harvest. Periodic harvest is very good management because it temporarily reduces standing crop (fish biomass) and allows the ecosystem to periodically "rest" by not being at full capacity ('biological metabolic speed').

The fish capacity could be comprised of 40 two lb bass or 20 4 lb bass, or some fish mixture consisting of about 50-80 lbs optimum weight. Note the 80 pound weight should not be maintained constantly due to potential water quality issues. Ideally and wisely one should be maintaining fewer fishes that are in the process of growing in good water quality toward the 60-80 pound pre-harvest weight rather than maintaining the 80+ lb weight as constant biomass. This concept is similar to farmers and ranchers growing animals as a crop. Maintain the herd with a mixture of various aged animals. New young ones, middle age ones and older ones that are harvested.

Said all of the above to repeat my earlier post and say, I think the AB13 could safely raise 10-20 LMB and/or HSB that are being fed pellets and actively growing in an aerated 0.05 ac pond. 20 fish weighting 3 lbs each is 60 pounds. Remember to periodically harvest a few and restock. You should not constantly run the ecosystem at full speed (capacity) or periodically the system fails i.e. fish kills.

Holy S$&@ thanks for all that- probably go with that type of plan then- really appreciate it!

Whatever you do please keep us advised about your progress. Others with small ponds will benefit and learn from your experiences. I hope your experiences are good ones. We can help with advice as your project proceeds. Take a bunch of pictures, keep records, and your story can be a welcome addition to the Mini-Pond section of Pond Boss Magazine.

Great advice Bill!

More questions for Cecil about those LMbass he grew on pellets. HOw long did you have them in the pond for them to grow to be 4 to 6 lbs??
Starting size of the pellet trained stockers?
Any other forage items in the pond for bass to eat besides pellets??
Do you have a picture of some of those bass for the thread? As I remember they looked like footballs with big mid sections and smaller heads and tails?

Cecil we are waiting for the answers to bills questions!!
Please don't keep us in suspense!

Cecil may be in Florida transferring his parents back to Indiana. Give him a day or two to catch up.

I'm baaaaaaaaaack!

Went from tropical temps to subarctic! WTH! If the eastern Pacific would just cool down about 8 degrees we could get rid of of this 's' curve in the Jet Stream that is bringing this polar air straight down to the midwest!

Bought the bass as 4 to 5 inch feed trained fingerlings from Laggis Fish Farms in Gobles, Michigan in the spring.

Fed them floating fish pellets in a cage at low density of 100 per 4X4X4 cage until the fall when they had reached 8 to 10 inches and were relased into the rest of the population of the .62 acre pond. They were kept in the cage until fall to get some size on them to keep them from being eaten by the larger bass in the pond. At 8 to 10 inches they were large enough not to become expensive predator fish food.

These are aproximate average ages and bass sizes. Keep in mind there are always a few smaller size bass and a few larger size bass. Males are smaller than female largemouth bass.

Spring Year 01 (March-April) Age ~ 9 to10 months. Size 4 to 5 inches placed in cage
Fall Year 01 (October) Age 16 months. Size 8 to 10 inches. Released from cage
Fall Year 02. (October) Age 2 years 4 months Size 14 to 15 inches 1.5 to 2.5 lbs.
Fall Year 03. (October) Age 3 years 4 months Size 16 to 18 inches 2.5 to 3.0 lbs.
Fall Year 04. (October) Age 4 years 4 months Size 17 to 19 inches 3 to 5 lbs. plus

The bass grew quite rapidly until they reached about 2.5 to 3 lbs. and then slowed down in growth. The rapidly growing fish exibited small heads and fins. As the fish slowed down in growth they showed more normal proportions. The younger fish were quite stocky with lots of internal fatty tissue. One 19 inch fish weighed just over 6 lbs.

I'm convinced many of the oldest fish went off the pellets. There was bluegill, yellow perch and largemouth reproduction to feed on. also saw a significant decrease in the number of the largest fish to to natural attrition as they weren't removed from the pond - at least not at first.

I'm convinced that pellet fed bass, although faster growing initially,have a shorter lifespan than their natural fed counterparts.

There may be some variation in growth rates and maximum size as I know a bass farmer in Missouri that produces lots of feed trained bass over 6 lbs. in his broodstock pond. I was also told the same by a central Indiana producer.







My bass were somewhat interbred judging by the triangular lower jaws in some of the bass.

Cecil thanks for the info!

What did you feed them? If LMB pellet from purina, was it hard to get them to switch from the smaller to the larger?

Fed them 600 mostly. I got the large bass pellets and they weren't as interested.

I have 2 year old feed trained bass. They have become much less aggressive when it is feeding time. There is no other forage in the pond for them. They seem content to wait for the pellets to sink before eating. Where last year they would almost hit the feed before it hit the water. Is that what you saw in your pond they are 15-16 " now.

No just not that interested in the big pellets.

You may not think you have forage but your bass will canabilize on their young and I'll bet you have significant reproduction of bass. My wife and I were surprised to find thousands of chunky little one to two inch bass hanging around the two diffusers in the pond when we snorkled. However when I drained the pond there were hardly any to be found. Obviously they were being eaten.

My guess is the YOY bass hung around the diffusers, as it was a place to eat zooplankton, but may also may have been somewhat of partial safe zone, as I noticed most of the larger fish avoid the water in the air bubble stream.

This is all great information about raising fish in a small pond.

Well I couldn't see being all that satisfied with my 0.05 acre pond- so I sold my house and bought one that sits on a 5 acre glacial lake in our current neighborhood. Though I don't own the pond- I'm sure it's your standard blue gill LMB population. Our new house sits at the shallow end,and there's a fair amount of algae coverage this time of year- not very attractive and not sure it'll be good for fishing. Any harm in skimming some off the surface? Adding a fountain also should help keep that down right? Thanks

Well AB skimming some off the surface is fine, but a fountain or an air system will not get rid of your algae. If might where the fountain is but that's about it.

Like many others have said there is to much nutrients in your pond that's why you are getting the algae. There is no quick fix for getting rid of algae except for 2 things and they will only fix it for a short time.

1. A real hard rain will knock a lot of it down back into the water and mix it up, but it will come back.

2. Chemicals will take care of it for the time being but it will come back from that also.

Until you get your nutrient load under control in your pond it will keep coming back. Sometimes not as bad as others but it will be back.

You also need to find / figure out what type of Algae it is. That will help you better make a choice as to how to tackle it.

RC

P.S. Bill Cody knows his stuff when it comes to Algae he may be able to help you out if you could post a pic of what you have.