Im getting geared up to stock my new 3 ac pond this spring and have done a lot of research on this site and must say thank you for all the great info..

My primary goals are trophy SMB and big plump YP for the table. I do plan to feed purina aqua max. to maximize fish growth. I will be aerating the pond also.

My pond is about half full at this point so I have 6' of water in the deeper areas. I am pumping water in from my well and as the snow melts it will hopefully fill quickly. I'm guessing it to be around mid-late April before it is full pool.

My plans are to stock 300 6-8" pellet trained YP as soon as possible in hopes I can get a spawn this spring... I also plan on 250 2-3" RES with 60# of FHM and 20# of golden shiners.

I will wait until fall to stock 120 SMB.

Does anyone see any problems stocking the fish this spring given my water depths and it being a new pond?? I have put a lot of concrete slabs and rock/gravel for spawning. Also I am adding several plastic structures I have made out of 55 gallon drums and irrigation pipe. The pond has a 10' ledge running all the way around that is about 4' deep and also 2 long ridges running down the middle of the pond that will be 3 1/2 to 5' deep when at full pool.

Also how do the numbers of fish Im stocking look?

Thanks for any advice!

Hey there 3 acers, welcome. I'm not qualified to give any solid advice but some of the higher ups will probably soon jump in. What is the nearest town to you? I live 1 mile E of Butler and have YP SMB WE and HSB. I put in FHM which were consumed and eliminated in about two months. They are slow and stupid. A good alternative Bill cody recommended to me were Spotfin shiners and Bluntnose minnows. They have survived and reproduced very well. If you haven't researched the arcives for SMB spawning structure, you should. Lots of good posts about it. The way the weather is, doubt you'll be getting anything in there terribly soon. Probably too late for a YP spawn but again more knowledgeable folks will chime in. Good luck and maybe we can visit this summer.

Your numbers are reasonable. If some of the stocker YP are breeder sized 5" up to & including some 8"ers and stocked before Apr 5-8 you should get a few strands of perch eggs. Some of the stocker YP can be 3"-5". One successful YP egg strand will produce more than enough young YP. Adding SMB in fall is a good idea. If you wisely harvest the SMB based on recruitment you should be able to maintain adequate numbers of YP for a good annual harvest. SMB can when reproducing over-eat the food source (forage fish). Which results in too few YP for harvest.

If after several years you notice small black spots or grubs in/on the fish then you can stock some redear sunfish to help reduce snails which are a link to the fish parasites. Or you can stock 30-40 RES in spring or fall with the SMB.

Hey Bob, thanks! Im just south of Ft.Wayne, IN. Sounds like you have a very similar setup as I'm shooting for. I was hoping the GS would be more of the long term food for the SMB along with the YP. Is there any negative to the Spotfin S or the BM? That sounds like some things to consider... Did you stock any crayfish? I am going to look for some paper shell crays to stock this sping as well.

I have done a lot of research and have read a lot of the info. on this site and have gained a lot from the 5 part article by Bill Cody. Great stuff! I have built several nesting sites for the smallies out of concrete blocks as recommended.

How old is your pond and how well is it going for you? Do you feed? Are the SMB reproducing for you at all?

That would be great to get together some time... Id love to check out your pond!

Bill, thanks for the response! I have read a ton of the articles you have wrote on SMB in ponds and in fact that is why have decided to give it a try...

I was planning to stock some of the smaller sized perch in the 3-5" range, but the guy at Shelby fish farm didn't recommend it saying he was concerned that the larger 6-8" perch may eat them. He told me to go with the 6-8" YP and to for go the larger size of 9+" YP as well... It would definitely be cheaper to use several of the 3-5" YP instead of all the larger size. What's your take on this? I thought since the YP would be feed trained and on food they wouldn't eat too many fish and that 3-5" fish seemed pretty large for a 6-8" YP to eat.

As far as spawning substrate goes for YP, does it have to be tree limbs? Would Fishiding plastic structures work for the egg strands? They make some with narrower strips that I thought might work well. Im trying to keep the wood out of the pond as much as possible, but I could always pull it back out if necessary.

Sink some x-mas trees in 3'-5' of water as soon as ice is out and drag them back out when the water hits 55-60 degrees. Save and repeat next year.

Some comments.
1. The main negative with the spotfin and BNM is they need lots of cover to withstand predation from SMB, thus I know of no ponds where they maintain populations with reproducing SMB. SMB can be "death" on small forage fish. I have seen GS maintain breeding adults (8"+) with SMB, YP and RES with moderate weed cover.

2. With SMB you can't have too many crayfish. With a strong SMB population one has a hard time maintaining crays.

3. Shelby Farm is a good source for fish. I know his source for his YP - great fish. For his larger fish 6"-8", the majority of them, maybe 60%-70% will be females from the 2013 year class and some from the 2012 hatch depending on how he has held them. The 9"+ ones would be mostly females from the 2012 year class. You are correct if the YP are good pellet eaters they will not prey heavily on minnows or small YP. Expect most of the 3"-5"ers in your case to survive. IMO I would buy at least 50 3"-5", just to get a good group of male YP. His larger YP will eat mostly FHM minnows before eating small 3"-4" YP. IMO if you feed Shelby fish pellets you will not notice a loss of minnows or small YP the first year. After YP and SMB spawn then loss of small fish will be more apparent.

4. Spawn substrate for YP can be Fishiding or most any type of structure. Actually you want very few egg strands to hatch and survive at least until your SMB spawn once. Then with SMB, the small YP become more important to the fishery. I like to use removable tree limbs for YP spawning so I can monitor how many YP egg strands I am getting, removing, and ones allowed to hatch.

Bill:

With the spawning substrate, how far apart is too far for the branches? I need to put spawning substrate in my pond too, and neglected to acquire x-mas trees.....

Scott,

I have placed branches as far apart as 40 or 50 feet and they seem to find it.

Well three acres Bill has given you some great advice, Essup is right on the money and I bet as this tread expands you'll get more solid advice.
My pond was dug in Sept 06. I just added 8 mature SMB from Cecil last spring so this summer will be interesting as far as keeping it balanced. Bills response about the SFS and BN kinda scares me cause if the SMB spawn they will have a heyday. I don't know if they will because when I built my pond I placed the SMB beds at between 2 & 4' but my pond has a leak and is a ground level pond. The last few dry yrs have had over half of my beds exposed and the rest very shallow. The pond was dug to be 12' but is usually around 9.5. Hopefully with this yrs snow the ground water table will be higher and my pond may stay more full. I was fortunate to obtain about 16 YP ranging from 8-14" in the spring of 07 (post spawn) and added 50 3-5". Without seeking guidance I put in 50 3-5" HSB which resulted in the quick demise of the FH (they're not the only thing around the pond that is slow and stupid) but man did those HSB grow fast. I took out 28 around late Aug. and they are now 20+"s. I believe I put in 5 4-6" WE in 09 which are now around 17"s. Also without consultation I put in 6 5" Koi that I've shot out or caught out all but one. He is very smart and secretive.
I am in Fl until mid to late April depending on the weather but when I get back I'll have ya up for a tour (the whole 100'X100') and we'll catch some for size checking. I'll pm ya my info.
Keep asking ?s even tho it seems you are already well educated in what ya want and how to go about it.
Scott, Bill showed me his TP spawning trees and they are 3-5 saplings strapped together to make the tops real full, kinda like hardwood sapling xmas trees. He may elaborate. Cecil if yer branches are 40-50' apart you put in tooooo big of a tree.(sorry, couldn't resist)

Oops, sorry for the confusion. I meant how far apart should the maximum be for the individual branches. 3", 6" ??? It's not like I can put a couple of horizontal broom handles 3' apart in the pond and expect the skeins to stay on them.

(You know what I'm getting at)

I know christmas trees work, but for putting branches in the pond, how dense should they be?

1. If that's the case I think I'll pass on the spotfin and BNM. I really want to avoid an over abundance of weed type cover in the pond as I want the SMB to effectively control perch numbers. I'll have very little shallow water as my banks are fairly steep down to a 4-5 foot ledge that raps around the pond.

2. Im in the process of putting as much concrete chunks and riprap on this steep bank on 3 main points to provide structure for the SMB and cover for crayfish. These areas of rock will be roughly 10' X 75'. Between these points I'm sure Ill have some narrow bands of weeds (hopefully eel grass). In addition to the concrete on the banks I have 2-5" gravel on the very top of the banks all the way around the pond, which is probably not large enough for crayfish habitat. I also dropped 5 tri-axle loads of large concrete chunks in 8 different locations in 6-8' of water mainly for fish structure.

Am I on the right track with the crayfish habitat or am I going to come up short?

3.-4. Thank you for confirming the use of some smaller YP. If I stock 300 YP, should I cut the number of larger 6-8" fish in order to cut down on the number of young YP. I had planned to put a lot of cover in the pond before I get it to full pool so controlling the number of egg strands will be difficult for me. Could I run into a real problem of being over run with young YP before I get the SMB large enough to control the numbers?

5. Have any Idea where I could locate some feed trained SMB?

Feed Trained SMB - Dan Laggis, Gobles, Mi

esshup - The branches with numerous twigs arranged closer together seem to be preferred compared to widely spaced twigs such as occurs on walnut, ash trees. Maple branches are medium and could work okay. I prefer small dog wood trees 5'-8' tall.

3acre- 1. Steep slope banks will help reduce amount of weed growth and result in fewer refuge areas.

2. Amount of concrete sounds adequate, although its is hard to visualize the percent of cover along shoreline in 3 acres. Standard amount of shoreline cover for BG-LMB is 20%, although more may be needed for as minnow-crayfish good refuge with SMB as predator esp after SMB have spawned two plus times. A lot will depend on number of fish eating pellets vs pellet eating SMB/acre.

3. IMO I would wait to stock the YP after the spawn early April spawn. Stock YP in late April- early May. This way you will not have to be concerned with an overpopulation of YP yet still get an strong reproduction of minnows-shiners and late stocked YP will feed on pellets one full season resulting in optimum growth. Then fall stocked SMB will be present to help control the first full YP spawn.

Thank you esshup for the SMB source. Funny thing is I was calling around and Herman Bros. in Illinois told me to contact you for the SMB source...At least they told me to call hoosier pond pros.

Bill-Great information! I've been thinking and I want to shoot another scenario at you just to appease my curiosity. If I could locate feed trained SMB to stock with the larger feed trained YP why would it not be a good situation to stock them together early spring? In this scenario I would stock a large number of GSH brooders that are in the 4-5" range. Between the GSH spawn and the spawn of the YP their would be plenty of forage, especially since the fish are on feed. Cray fish may not be able to establish? I realize the FHM would probably get wiped out early, but they will in the end anyway... Is this a correct way of thinking or no?

Thanks again for the help!

I'll be getting more SMB this year if you need some, but going to Dan could also possibly get you some different genttics for your feed trained YP too. Maybe Bill would know for sure.

Last year (Fall) I sold the last of my feed trained SMB, and have to re-stock. They were 10"-12+" at time of sale.

Sent you a pm esshup, Thanks!

Comments:
1. "other scenario" - Stocking SMB in spring with YP is doable. As with everything you do in or to your pond, it always has pros and cons. The big 'trick' is to know all the pros and cons which there are usually several to numerous. To be aware of them all,,,, requires extensive ecological and biological knowledge and experience. Very few pond management "professionals" have a good ecologically based background and they basically have enough information to mainly sell fish and/or manage with one primary goal.

Here are just a few implications of your 'other scenario': A. the smaller the stocker SMB are the less likely they will remain pellet eating esp if there is lots of natural food in the pond. Spring stocked SMB will be last years fish that have eaten pellets longer - maybe a good thing. Larger pellet trained fish tend to resume eating pellets quicker than small fish. B. Spring SMB tend to be harder to locate and cost more than fall SMB - supply & demand. C. Previous number of years of domestication of brood stock affects how well fish and their offspring learn to eat pellets and stay on pellets in new surroundings. D. Changing a fish's habitat and those in "item c" can have a big influence on how well a fish resumes eating pellets or readily learns to eat pellets. E. Adding extra forage fish could be counter productive in that it provides more forage and fish could be 'tempted' to eat live food vs pellets.
F. I would stock YP after they have spawned to minimize problems, unless YP are not available after mid to late April. IMO you want the first spawn of YP to coincide with a prior spawn of SMB resulting in small bass present to aggressively eat hatchling YP and not eat pellets or other forage species; maybe an unreasonable desire or wish. This can be 'tricky' with SMB as the primary predator. Thus you should be prepared to manually adjust fish numbers. Ultimately you may need some HSB to help control YP if SMB are not recruiting or if they and their offspring are strong pellet eaters. Everything will appear good to great in the first few years. To achieve a great long term fishery you will need to closely monitor & adjust the balance of all fishes in the pond. G. Establishment and long term survival of crayfish in ponds in a new science and little is known about species of predator, species of crayfish, best type and amount of habitat, and other variables. H. Presence or lack of plants will also be a big variable as to the balance of fishes.

A pond fishery, especially one that is more naturally based, is a very complex interactive, ever changing food web functioning in a complex watery soup where both are strongly influenced by numerous external forces such as climate and day length.

Sorry for the delay getting back to the thread. I had an issue staying logged in long enough to post, but hopefully got it fixed. Anyway I would like to get back to the discussion of stocking.

Bill, your response to my 'other scenario' really opened my eyes to a lot of variables that I hadn't considered in the grand scheme of stocking the pond. I think I will definitely wait until fall on the SMB stocking.

How big of SMB do I need to stock to have a realistic hope of seeing a spawn in the spring of 2015? I like the idea of the first YP spawn coinciding with the first SMB spawn. Seems that would be a great kick start for the young SMB. I've read a lot of the articles and earlier threads about building spawning beds and have constructed quite a few and plan to add more before the water rises enough to stop me. Also I am adding rock piles near the beds to provide refuge for the fry. I'll try to add some photos of the work I've accomplished thus far.

This thread might provide some insight.

Size that smallmouth start spawning?

For some additional information about smallies, the fish in the 1st picture of my Pond Boss - Bass Resource article were mature spawner size bass from a pond that had only SMB in the pond. Caption for the picture, stated the bass were juvenile bass, which was technically incorrect.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smallmouth-spawning.html
Thus smallies do not have to be very large to spawn.

Those in the picture were the size of practically all SMB in this pond. I renovated that pond last year because previous owners added green sunfish which ruined the single fish concept. No recovered bass were bigger than 10". The 0.25 ac pond is being restocked with only female yellow perch, minnows and each year 7-10 tilapia. It is a pond primarily used for swimming.

Shorty, thanks for the link... So, how much more did your smallies grow by the end of fall 2012? How about 2013? Great to hear from someone who has gotten off to a great start in the early stages of establishing SMB in a pond.

Bill, great article! Thanks for writing it and also sharing it with me...

The fish I stock this fall will be in the 5-7" range minimum and at least a few of these should spawn next season, especially if I get feed trained fish and continue to feed them.

I wanted to share some pics of the work I've accomplished so far in order to get some feed back on the way I'm going about adding rock to the pond. I've added several rip rap/boulder fingers that extend from the bank to deep water. Many of these lead to large concrete chunk piles that were dumped in 8' of water. In some of the pics the large concrete chunks are still visible above the ice and in some they're not. These large piles in the 8' depths are 15-20 tons each. I've made adding as much rock to the pond as possible a top priority. I'm hopeful that I'll be successful in supplying the right type of habitat for SMB and their prey to not only survive,but flourish. I estimate that in the neighborhood of 250 ton of concrete and rip/rap/boulders have been added thus far...
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/768a6b95388a4b1c032cb6cc684704f3.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/8bfd565e433b1fba88cfffd821996fb1.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/193760f9ab174072181daf2cdc13f428.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/7d39b7826e6976703d97ad4cea0195fc.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/70ffeda225611677474ab5242324be58.jpg

The next few pics I'm sharing show a couple spots that more rock was dumped down the banks then was intended... So I created a couple of under water rock peninsulas. These peninsulas are 15-18' wide and extend to deep water. As I shaped these with the tractor I noticed the tops were covered with a lot of finer gravel and rock so I decided to make some bowel shaded SMB nests on them...

These are the two piles I'm referring to in the middle and upper left hand of the pic. This is before pushing them out with the tractor...

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/b34b8f7cc4ce1a1301d76bb97c5c3a18.jpg

These pics show the peninsulas and SMB beds I constructed in them...

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/bf9efc0f0038ef086df844a01537fed5.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6f317559df76569012043702650eed0f.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/e9b88ea27faadd930f76f3edc6a853f1.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/127ea21b7890e932f31855395d82f018.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/e94edd233c2a7b83cdf77729b1dce4d6.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/4a6be26e79d5b2a58aa2fee24aad8088.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/0781d1416340352992355e51950d4b7e.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/33bca1eca164ab71b4943a0775101089.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/c23fe180786c722e5c7a115fbdbc2e44.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/213c85d7b4086082a483119881284152.jpg

Good start on creating habitat for SMB. You have the right spawning habitat.

Bill, with all that rock and concrete slabs won't that habitat be good spawning and growing areas for SFS and Bluntnose? You mentioned before about needing good weed cover for growing BN and SFS, will not all that rip rap serve the same purpose? By the way with winter probably extending into late May, you and the Corn King are welcome to another visit. If the ground is still frozen Jim won't have anything to do except keep you out of fist fights at Disney World.
Disclaimer: I will not answer ?s about above mentioned altercation.

With reproducing SMB & YP I doubt there is enough riprap for maintaining BNM & SFS. It takes an extensive amount of habitat when reproducing SMB are present. SMB are eating machines when it comes to soft rayed minnows.

Thanks for confirmation Bill... I thought I may be on to something with those SMB beds. I've made several beds already around the pond using mixed sized gravel, but these lime stone areas just felt right and looked more natural. Also with all the big rock surrounding and underneath the limestone beds they may last more long term. With this in mind I'm really temped to add several more of the limestone type, but it takes a lot of time/money and don't want to do it if it's not necessary. I probably could build 6-8 of them now with the rock I have presently. Here's an example of the first SMB spawning beds I made. I've got the gravel in place for 25-30 of the beds similar to below pic. I just need to locate more cinder blocks or I may use rocks on some as well. How many spawning beds are needed for a 3 acre pond?

Excellent rocky structure! I am jealous!

"""How many spawning beds are needed for a 3 acre pond?""" Answer - one well designed spawning bed per acre if there is good habitat available near and in the vicinity of the nest site.

Well lets hope I can get at least one right then...;)

Nice Work JamieE!

Thanks Huntmaster... Actually your thread is what really inspired me to go the route I have with stocking... When I fist read that you were stocking SMB and YP I thought you were a little crazy, but after reading your thread and doing a lot of research I'm going to give it a go as well. Hopefully well be able to share notes with each other as we go...

Hi Jaime - been following this post with interest as I'm a cool water species fishery fanatic myself. You're in great hands with Cody's vast experience on the stocking plan, and I love your strategy on the rock structure thus far.

While the water level is still low, consider creating at least a couple SMB beds elevated from the clay bottom. I've built SMB beds in several ways, and found those directly on the bottom routinely silt in or get covered in organic matter and become "buried" in a few seasons. It's difficult to retrieve the rock and excavate them from 6" of silt/clay/etc. Here's an example of my beds placed on the bottom of the pond after 4 seasons...this is typical of Eastern NE clay bottom ponds - your situation may be different.




I now use this design for my own SMB reproduction pond and for clients/friends and have great success. The beds allow for silt and organic matter to filter through the elevated pallet and plastic mesh below the rock bed. It would likely take 20 seasons before enough silt/organic matter built up to threaten the beds - at which time the pond would likely require renovation anyhow. Originally I was concerned with the elevation - however following 3 seasons the SMB don't seem to mind.

Beds are elevated on cinder blocks, pallet set, mesh applied.




Cinder blocks placed to create "horseshoe" spawning abode.



Rock added for the bed - I use 1-3" limestone.



This shot provides a view of the degree of elevation.



I add limestone and PVC around the bed to try and naturalize the appearance and provide SMB fry with some cover to escape cannibalism. I vary my bed depths from 2-6' and have not experienced that fish routinely favor one depth over another - seems to vary annually due to conditions beyond my grasp.




Looks like a great project, hope some of this helps you achieve your goals of SMB recruitment. I think you'll appreciate the condition of your raised beds compared to those designed on the bottom of the pond following a few seasons.

Great pics. That ought to be worthy of the structure archives. Thanks

Wish now I would have put some liner under some of my rock/gravel I put in the bottom or better yet elevated it like you did.

I did put gravel piles on top of some pallet structures mostly to keep them from floating, but I can see where I would have liked more of it done that way.

Thread was added to the Smallmouth Bass Topic in the Archives.

I sure hope my large expensive YP made it through the winter. If not, I will not stock with such large YP again, but rather wait and stock the SMB later than originally planned.

Great stuff TJ! Awesome pics and explanation. Thanks for sharing them. A lot of the SMB beds that I've built thus far are built on top of piles of limestone and are surrounded by rock. Not sure if this will completely protect them from silt or not, but I will definitely add some of the pallet type beds also.

JE,

I stumbled on my stocking program on here as well. I'm just following Bill's lead and I'm sure it will work out well in the end.

I don't know if you saw my build thread or not, but I also followed TJ's lead on the SMB beds with a couple minor differences. I still have to add the stone in the bed area as I ran out of time before the pond filled.

Jamie your pond situation could be entirely different than ours in E NE where clay ponds and siltation is a major issue. The raised beds likely aren't necessary for rock dominated BOWS, or sandpits. As the after photos demonstrate, for me it was a necessity.

Looking good, Hunt - well done! Think 1-3" rock for the beds. Rock allows for more egg oxygenation and reduces risk of siltation or other material smothering the eggs vs gravel or sand. Also, it stays put and allows particulate to filter through your mesh and the pallet slats.

TJ, I will likely have some of the same issues with silting as my pond is clay also. I'm hoping that all the large rock I have under some the SMB beds will filter the silt through similar to your setup. My beds are elevated 6"-18" above the clay in most instances. I've read in an article by Bill Cody that the male SMB can remove silt from rocks to reshape his bed from the previous year. So Im hoping to at least limit the amount of silt by surrounding the beds with rock to avoid silt from sliding in from the banks above.

Here's some more examples of what I'm creating.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/image-5.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/image-8.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/image-10.jpg

I've added a total of 15 of the long rock piles that are 18"-3' tall and 20' wide. They extend out into deep water (6-12')and are 50'-75' long. The piles are a minimum of 12 tons and 4 of them are 25+ tons each. Looks like that may be it for rock hauling, as the surrounding ground is saturated with water and by the time it dries out again the pond will be full. I feel pretty good about the amount of rock in the pond. My goal was to get SMB structure, spawning beds and crayfish habitat out of the rocks I put in the pond. I spaced them approximately 40-100' apart. Standing on the bank it looks like a pretty significant amount.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/e25fc947c57adaff7532412a6182e682.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/2384be37a8c8640647615894a98e73f0.jpg

IMO the spawn bed for SMB that TJ showed above (11-03-14 post)was probably never used which does occur in ponds were numerous spawn bed sites are built. The male bass for some reason does not "like" the nest site. It has been shown that not all male SMB will build a nest each year. I sometimes see where a male starts cleaning a nest and then the unfinished nest is abandoned for some reason. Maybe it was due to competition and crowding?

A small 0.3ac study pond with SMB as the dominant predator near me will usually have only one to a maximum of 3 active spawn beds each spring; often one or two. Often it is the same spawn site that is favored by the dominant male bass each year despite other apparently good locations are available. From just this pond experience, I would not expect more than 3 to 6 active SMB spawn beds per acre. You are lucky to get two active nests per acre IMO for non-production ponds. Thus in a smallie pond with numerous spawn bed sites several may never be used. This may be one reason why fingerling SMB at fish farms are scarce and why many fish farms do not raise SMB, thus the scarcity and premium price for SMB fingerlings.

I think only one or two successful SMB nests per acre are needed with proper fry nursery areas to provide plenty of SMB recruitment. Actually Dr. Dave Willis (SDSU fisheries professor) in his dealings with SMB in ponds frequently saw too much recruitment from the SMB and they often became stunted and needed to be thinned out to get growth from the bass. He generally concluded the smallies tended to over populate in favorable conditions.

I am not sure I would would be wanting my SMB to spawn successfully, or least overly successfully. It doesn't take but a few YOY to make it each year or every other year to keep the numbers you need. Especially if one's goals are simply to grow quality SMB. Now if you want over populated stunted SMB to control other fish species, that is something different.

I agree that too much recruitment will not be the best thing for the pond, but not sure how that can be controlled. My thoughts are to supply the correct spawning habitat along with rocky cover near the nest to protect the fry and hope for the best... I guess it's a good thing that a minimum amount of spawning will occur per acre.

The question is will the numbers of SMB recruitment be able be kept in check by fishing and removing several 10-12" size fish? I love to fish and also really enjoy eating fish...

My number 1 goal is trophy Smallies... You guys suggest I do something different?

If my goal was trophy smallies, I wouldn't build any spawning habitat for them. They'll find a way to spawn a little bit in all likelihood and that is all you'll need...

I am far from a smallie expert though.

You shouldn't have a problem removing smaller bass whenever they become common in 3 acres. SMB are not as prolific as LMB.

Keep in mind that a cleaned active nest tended by a male bass will stay silt free during his watch unless the water contains an overabundance of suspended sediment/clay.

Various types of nest and fry predators can cause havoc on the black vulnerable fry and result in poor recruitment even if quite a few eggs are laid and/or hatch.

The fact that SMB aren't as prolific as LMB and don't tend to decimate the forage in a pond like LMB is the main reason I've decided to stock them.

I don't think I'm going to worry too much about silt unless I see it getting to be a problem... If needed I could always add new rock on top of a few of the beds that seem to be preferred by the male bass.

Going back to stocking rates... I'm thinking very strongly of stocking SMB at a very low rate. I had planned to stock 120 this fall but am considering dropping this number to 50-60 fish. My thinking here is these fish should grow really fast and this would help keep less pressure on the forage base. Also, this would save some money that I could spend on forage fish and Crayfish. Any downside to doing this?? I could always stock more SMB the following fall...

Stocking fewer predators is a good way to allow them to grow their best. Greg Grimes uses this method with LMB to grow 3 to 5 lb bass in 12 top 16 months in southern waters.

I'm strongly considering an attempt at trapping crayfish from my local creek that is less than a half a mile from my pond. Is there any concern of bringing anything bad into my pond by doing this? I figure these crayfish being this close will make their way to the pond eventually without my help anyway. My goal is to get some crayfish in the pond before they lay eggs in order to build a population in advance of my SMB stocking. Is this worth doing? Will the crayfish reproduce in the pond or just go back to the stream?

My plan is to use a minnow trap and increase the size of the hole in the trap and bait with beef liver. Anyone have experience with this?

Most of the species of crayfish that you catch in a stream will be makers of burrows and chimneys (dirt mounds). However bass and other predators will keep their numbers low due consuming most of the crayfish. There will be survivors to maintain some brood stock when rocky habitat is abundant. After working with crayfish in pond for numerous years I prefer the papershell (aka Calico crayfish - Orconectes immunis) or virle crayfish (Orconectes virilis) because they are more of a pond dwelling species, more likely to stay in the pond, create shallow burrows usually under rocks and less likely to make deep burrows into the pond banks - dams. Both look similar. "O. immunis have characteristically long, slender chelae with a very splotchy coloration, but these features are a bit difficult to use as diagnostic characters without a few reference specimens. The easiest way to distinguish between O. immunis and O. virilis is the notch near the base of the dactyl, or 'thumb' of the cheliped--O. immunis has it, O. virilis does not."
http://www.crayfishworld.com/internationalusa2.htm
(I used to work with Mr. Thoma creator of the above website)

http://ninnescahlife.wichita.edu/node/671
http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/virile-crayfish
Source of papershell crayfish. Be aware that there may be a few other species in the purchase similar to buying minnows.
http://www.smithcreekfishfarm.com/productdetails4.cfm?product=live-fish-crayfish

To initially get enough numbers for good broodstock it is a good idea to buy some known crayfish specie from a fish farm or place that raises crayfish. Initial stocking can easily be 1000/ac depending on how long they can reproduce before the predators get big enough to eat the adult crayfish.

This link provides some good information about the invasive nuisance rusty crayfish and some crayfish biology. It is good information and informative. Be aware of what rusty crayfish look like.
http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/ais/rustycrayfish_invader

Very good question because I am planning on doing the same thing. Is there anyway to stock to many crayfish? I have a one acre pond and had in my mind 10 5 gallon buckets of crayfish is what my goal is. any thoughts

Are there Rusty Crayfish in KS? Wouldn't want too many of those.

Cody Note: Luckily Rusty crayfish have not been reported for Kansas. See the link in my post above.

I have never heard of those. We mainly have the hardback crawdads as we call them. I know the papershells are better but out here in the flinthills just hardbacks.

I looked on the Kansas Wildlife and Parks Website to see what they were. They have no reports of the rusty crawfish in kansas. So i should be safe there.

So has anyone ever stocked the hardback crawdads in a pond for smallmouth?

For the trap, there are regular traps made for crayfish. I know this because our local Wal-Mart stocks them. Surely available elsewhere also. Never had much luck with the one I used last year, but that was probably me or the location. They are built like some sort of combination of a turtle and fish trap. Crawdads crawl up a ramp and fall over into an area with the bait.

thinking about those crawdad traps... others gave good advice about using the long cylinder traps with the cone on the inside going to a smaller hole. I was told the traps can be setting on the bottom and the crayfish can swim up off the bottom and into the hole. Then snrub says the crayfish crawl up a ramp and fall into an area with bait.

So if the crayfish can find the hole or can find the ramp by swimming, why can't they swim back out of the hole or swim back up to the top of the ramp that they came in by?

I guess this also would apply to the minnow traps that are designed the same way, how many minnows find their way back out of the trap if you are in still water and no current is involved?

I wondered about this also. I was not sure with the crawdad trap if it was supposed to be used in shallow water with the ramp just submerged, or if it could also be used in deeper water. Like I said, where I used it in two different places, only caught a few, so maybe this particular design is not very good.

Crab and lobster pots (as well as fish) all use the idea of a small cone shaped hole so the bugs can not find their way back out.

I used to think that my minnow trap did not work very well as I usually only caught a hand full at a time. Then a couple weeks ago I baited it with some floating fish food and threw it out while I was feeding the FHM's in shallow water around the pond. Holy cow! Came back in about an hour and the trap was jam packed with FHM's about half full. Some had to be running back out of the hole because the trap was filled up to the hole when I drug it out of the water. That day I used that trap to catch probably around 5 pounds of minnows to move to my son's newly renovated pond to stock it. The FHM's had to be pushing each other out of the way trying to get in as I rarely had to leave it in the water over a half hour to have it 1/4 to 1/3 full. They were in a feeding frenzy I guess after a long winter.

Point is, maybe I just did not have the crawdad trap in the right location or at the right time to catch large numbers of crayfish. Might try it again this spring just for kicks. My guess is the bugs crawl in but can not crawl back out. I think the only time they really "swim" is when they are feeling threatened or attacked and they swim backwards by propelling themselves with their tails. At least that is what they do when trying to catch them by hand. I think either using the crayfish specific trap or a fish trap it is going to need to sit on the bottom for the bugs to crawl up into the hole. I could be wrong, but any I have ever seen while scuba diving at night will be crawling around on the bottom of the lake. Same thing with lobsters diving in the ocean (they are just really big salt water crayfish). Only timne you see them swimming is very fast backward when threatened.

We may not have the Rusty variety but whatever the variety we have locally is, they are nasty little buggers.

Caught some one time for the kiddies along with some local minnows and very small green sunfish to keep in the aquarium. Our kids were little and wanted to let them watch some local species. Wife went to a lot of trouble and put in nice natural grass and weeds from the creek in dirt containers in the bottom of the aquarium along with gravel. Even had some local tiny mussels.

Those enterprising little crawdads dug out every plant in the aquarium in a short order and made a mess out of her well laid aquarium plans.

Had them another time in with some of her goldfish. I put them in an already established goldfish "bowl". Wife noticed the tails were torn up on her "fancy" gold fish. Thought they were sick or something. One day caught one of the cradads hanging on to the tail of a gold fish while the fish was swimming around. The crawdad was using its smaller pincers to eat the goldfish tail while holding on with one big pincer all the while the goldfish was swimming around the bowl.

Tough, enterprising, onery little buggers they are.

I have used the small cylinder minnow traps and let set for 2 or 3 days with chicken livers or fish pellets or beef melt and came back and the minnow trap be completely full. I did this 4 times in a row it was placed by a creek crossing where the water was going over rocks like a small waterfall.

I take a my girlfriend with every spring to a local spot with a goldfish pond net. I flip a rock and shuffle my feet she backs the rock with the net. We can fill a cooler in about 2 hrs. About this time of year they have there eggs on them. Thinking of going early this week suppose to get warmer. It's a fun day that way.

So for bait for minnows or crayfish we have:

1. fish pelletized feed
2. cooked chicken?
3. someone mentioned cooked ham, I wonder if that includes spam?
4. Did I read dry dog or cat food? I have bunny food pellets I wonder if that would work?
5. chicken liver

KSBASS, what is beef melt?

I think my uncle used saltine crackers but when i tried that it didn't work. I wonder if there isn't enough 'smell' to it?

beef liver works too.

Have read a bit of info on the rusty, in small ponds for YP and SMB would the rusty be all that bad of a crayfish to have? They seem very tough not saying stocking a invasive species is good. But, for a food source in say. 1/4 acre pond does not seem like they could do anything but feed a population of SMB quite well ?

SMB readily eat crayfish. The more aggressive or ornery crayfish are not as easy for the bass to catch but usually the bass wins especially if the bass is noticeably larger than the crayfish. Most all adult crayfish are hard shells. When they molt to cast off the old skeleton and have the new skeleton exposed that shell is soft for a day or two until it hardens.

Dead fish, canned tuna with holes in the can or some road kill meat also work good in crayfish traps. Crayfish are scavengers.

Great links above Bill, just the kind of info. I need to help me identify what I may catch. Sounds like my best route may be to purchase papershells from Smith Creek unless I get lucky enough to find a local body of water they inhabit. Down side is Smith Creek wont let go of their crayfish until mid-June or later which will be well after they lay eggs. Hard to believe that Smith Creek is the only option to get the papershells...

Cody V did you read some of the info. about the Rusty crayfish in above links provided by Bill? They sound to be pretty devastating on the environment... No way I want them in my pond!

Have another question... How big will the SMB and YP need to be to present a real threat to adult crayfish stocked in the pond?

I've had 9"-10" perch eat a 2" long crayfish.

I am also planning on sourcing wild crayfish from the same watershed as my pond. I already called smith creek a month ago and June is a long way off. I use the cylinder type traps with the extension. I use cut fish like sunfish, bass, BG, whatever, it doesn't really matter but I would think oily fish would be better. But crayfish can be caught on everything mentioned here, and even raw bacon or hotdogs.

It helps to use a mesh bait container in the middle of the trap. I use 1/2" hardware cloth. Crayfish have big appetites so stuff the bait container full. This way they will stay in the trap instead of trying to get out. And as they eat it keeps bringing more into the trap.

I have never used the square ramp type traps. But they also work.

You can go on You Tube and there are lots crayfish trapping videos. I was surprised that they catch lots of crayfish way up north like in Minnesota, and big ones too.

I really did not consider purchasing crayfish until reading stuff on PondBoss and then thinking about it for a while. So a couple questions.

1) Will papershells do OK if native tunneling crayfish are already present?

2) In a new pond stocked with FHM, GSH, and YP in the last 2 years, and where SMB will be added later, when is it best to add papershells?

3) Do I need plants to be established in the pond before adding them?

4) What is the best supplier for central Indiana, and how many should be stocked per acre?

5) After adding papershells, how long should I wait before adding smaller SMB?

Absolutely, two people working together can catch crayfish fast if you are in the right creek. You just need a shrimp net or even a small seine net. One person lifts flat rocks while the other person nets them downstream. It is fun especially for kids.

Good question. There are so many different species of crayfish. I'm guessing that certain species of crayfish will eat the papershells for lunch.

Just reposting to get some input:

I really did not consider purchasing crayfish until reading stuff on PondBoss and then thinking about it for a while. So a couple questions.

1) Will papershells do OK if native tunneling crayfish are already present?

2) In a new pond stocked with FHM, GSH, and YP in the last 2 years, and where SMB will be added later, when is it best to add papershells?

3) Do I need plants to be established in the pond before adding them?

4) What is the best supplier for central Indiana, and how many should be stocked per acre?

5) After adding papershells, how long should I wait before adding smaller SMB?

Thank you!

Crayfish will develop high numbers in a pond with just FHM, other minnow species or shiners. Sport fish even pan fish will keep the crayfish numbers lower due to the fish even young panfish eating the new baby crayfish. Lot of crayfish in a pond can keep the FA and weeds to low amounts although the pond may be murky due to lots of crayfish activity in the sediments. Best habitat for crayfish is large riprap along most all the shoreline down to 3-5ft deep. Crayfish live among the rocks and will eat the attached algae that grows on the rocks / concrete. Some species of crayfish are more aggressive such as the rusty crayfish and tend to suppress the numbers of papershells depending on amount of habitat.

I don't think very many fish farms have figured out that you can grow lots of beneficial pond dwelling crayfish in small shallow ponds that will not support good fish populations. Wetland or summer kill ponds are good crayfish areas as long as the pond does not go completely dry in the summer. You can poly culture crayfish and minnows to get a double cash crop. There is a pretty good bait market for papershell crayfish wherever SMB angling is good. Crayfish are easy to ship with low mortality. As many fish farms that there are in the Midwest one would think more would grow crayfish.

Thank you Bill. I will likely put these in all my BOW including a shallow pond that had severe fish mortality this winter.

I've been putting in some thought on long term survivability of forage fish in the pond, and I wonder if stocking YP will make this even more challenging for me?

If your goal was primarily trophy SMB would you stock YP or leave them out of the mix? I know the YP will provide a lot of forage for the SMB, but they will also eat a lot of the other varieties of forage in the pond and possibly make the long term chances of their survival less likely?

Would a scenario of SMB and RES stocked with FH,GSH,LCS,Killifish and crayfish be a better long term setting to meet my goal?

I don't think you will be able to grow trophy SMB (4-6 lbs) in a pond with out feeding them pellets unless the number of SMB are low per acre, thus providing more or lots of forage for only a few predators. A strict slot harvest of bass would be IMO required to keep younger, smaller SMB at low density. Aquamax LMB pellets will help increase the chances of growing trophy SMB faster.

With SMB, I think FHM will be eliminated shortly after or prior to the first SMB spawn. As with LMB, the FHM are primarily to just get the bass to the 10"-11" size, then FHM are gone. The main concern for growing big SMB is to have numerous larger forage items for them after the smallies get to 15"-16" and to keep them fat and growing well. The LCS should provide that food source providing the smallies can adequately catch the LCS. LCS are noted in the literature as good behavior features for avoiding predation. The 4"-6" YP&GSH would also contribute to the larger forage items. No one here nor in the literature has used LCS-YP-RES-GSH-SMB-crayfish so you are traveling a new fishery path. Keep us informed of your progress.

Smallies in a 'balanced' population will usually keep the YP from being too abundant and damaging the smaller forage items. Diverse forage may change the balance and fishery structure.

Cody knows best - I'd like to add:

If trophy SMB were my goal, I'd go low density [25-50/acre] with pellet trained fish and specifically not add spawning structure to help manage population. GSH, LCS, BNM or other minnows and non burrowing crays would comprise my forage base. Low density SMB might be challenged to manage YP numbers - depending on density/presence of aquatic vegetation. However, I love YP so much I wouldn't mind leaving the management to myself thru angling pressure. I do NOT envision the YP population impacting the forage base outlined above to the extent that SMB would suffer. Remember a YP gape is pretty limited - any GSH or LCS 4"+ would likely be outside the predation range of all but the largest YP.

SO - I think you're onto something here, and also think the YP would be a great addition if you enjoy harvesting them to assist in management. You could grow some truly impressive SMB in this scenario.

Thanks for answering my question Bill. I do plan to feed pellets and start with a reduced rate of smallies 50-60 total in 3 acres. Also plan to remove several in the future if they prove to reproduce as well as I have heard they may. If I stock pellet trained SMB is it likely that I could keep a fairly high percentage of them on the Aquamax even as they grow to larger sizes?

Im with you on the need for larger size forage for 15"+ fish and that was the original plan for the YP to provide that... But Im a little concerned the smallies will prefer some of the other forage in the pond and the YP will get out of control and then really decimate the rest of the forage base. My biggest concern is the fact that they will be in a way a competing predator to the SMB. My hope is that the LCS won't be competing with the SMB as their diet is a lot different. I realize some of this will be speculation on you and others on the forum as this is uncharted waters, but I figure your best guess will be a lot closer than mine.

Great post TJ, just the kind of moral support and info. I'm looking for. However it's a little late on the SMB spawning substrate. I have ALOT of rock in the pond and it's not coming out. Hopefully I didn't shoot my self in the foot by providing too much. Maybe heavy silt will in time help me take care of some of that.;) I plan to work on the SMB population really hard and remove whatever necessary to keep the numbers down. I never eat bass, but sounds like its a real possibility in the near future.

I'm with you on the YP I love them as well,but was willing to give that up in order to reach my goal of trophy SMB. It is very reassuring to hear you say that the YP probably wouldn't make the kind of impact on the forage base as I thought they may.

J

I don't harbor any doubts you can achieve your goal of trophy SMB despite potential SMB recruitment. Remember your GSH, YP and age 1 SMB will hammer YOY SMB hard, so I'm suspecting SMB population management won't be a serious issue. Besides, if it does become an issue, you now have a good excuse to fish for SMB often and relocate/sell underachieving fish which will probably be fairly aggressive and easily culled. [FYI the SMB market nationwide is under-served and 8-12" SMB fetch a nice price - probably $10-20/ea - so that buys plenty of Aqua Max.] Catch, cage, and collect over a season and try to feed train/improve body condition and sell when you develop a market. Regarding the latter....I can think of three guys in IN on the forum now who would likely take all these fish off your hands annually.

Same goes for YP - excess 6-8" fish you can collect, cage, feed train and fatten up would fetch a nice price locally - probably $1+/ea. 6" YP in NE are about $.75/ea and that's my wholesale price. My obvious point here is that through assertive management techniques you can finally open that lemonade stand you've been dreaming about since you were 5.

*Remember, if you are selling fish to check state regulations and ensure compliance. In NE it requires a $76 annual license.*

Ultimately it's up to you whether or not to stock YP, however from my experience with these species in my own ponds I don't think presence of YP will do anything but improve your chances of achieving trophy SMB.

And...since I can't leave well enough alone...have you considered adding WE ladder stocking on an annual basis to provide a bonus catch? They will lean on your forage base much more than YP...but then again you could keep stocking numbers low and create put and take fishery. Say, 25-30 annually? Just a thought!

And because we're a "great lakes" state, you cannot sell fish (or transport to another great lake state) without having the fish tested. Talk to Cecil about that, it isn't cheap. IIRC you have to submit 60 fish of each species from each pond plus the test runs around $300.00.

Sold or moved within the state? No testing required, but you are supposed to get a fish haulers license (free) and submit quarterly stocking reports to the State.

I can definitely think of a lot worse things to do with my time then fish for SMB in order to keep populations in line. I'm sure my 13 yr old would love that job and the thought of getting a little income off the extra fish to offset expenses sounds great! At $10-20 a fish it makes it really difficult to justify eating them for dinner. Sounds like if you keep it in state it wouldn't be too big of a hassle to sell fish, but wow they really make you jump through hoops to sell out of state.

I really appreciate hearing about the real world experience you've had with the YP. It makes me feel a lot better about sticking to the original plan to include them in the pond.
Besides now that I won't be eating the SMB I'll need something for the dinner table and the perch are pretty hard to beat in that aspect!

I really like the put and take WE idea! I assume this would come down the road at least 5-6years out? So in this scenario you would stock say 1lb fish and harvest them later the same year or stock smaller fish and harvest the next season after they put on the size? I can only imagine having 5lb SMB, 14" perch, and 20" walleye in my own private waters! Now that sounds pretty awesome! Hopefully I can get it all put together and make it happen. With the info and advice I've gained on this site I feel like I'm at least starting out on the right track.

Getting back to building the forage base. I've got 30 LCS ordered to stock the pond and they range in size from some 3-4" (8-10 fish) and the rest being 1-2" fish. These fish will be my brood stock and will be going in very soon. Do you think I'm safe stocking the YP the end of May and the SMB this fall? It's difficult for me to wait til the following year but I will if necessary...
I also am stocking crayfish and wonder if it would be best to wait and stock Smallies later?

My original thoughts were that I would be okay to stock the SMB this fall since I'm stocking them at such a low rate (60 fish in 3 acres) and they will be pellet fed.

How about RES stocking? Is it okay to stock like 500-600 now or in another month or so?

I would not stock WE until you see you have an overpopulation of YP. Without excess forage the WE will compete with SMB in a small pond habitat and reduce the forage base. Thus your SMB, unless heavily dependent on pellets, will not achieve the trophy status. This applies primarily to SMB that were recruited in your pond and 7-10 yrs down the road. The original stocking of SMB may be the biggest SMB that you raise in your pond.

It is relatively easy to get the first stocking of fish in a new or renovated pond to grow fish to be the 'trophy' sizes, however it takes a lot better management methods to get the recruitment fish to grow to the trophy sizes. This concept has very little study and research. I think this occurs mainly because the pond ages and the food web declines as the nutrient budget gradually becomes more incorporated into the organic sediments and other resources. Plus a lot or too much of the standing stock is incorporated into big fish.

Great information Bill.

Rings true of guys around here talking about great fishing ponds in years gone by that no longer are any good. These are mostly "little or no management" farm ponds in need of some TLC or starting over.

I've decided to be patient and wait to stock SMB in the Fall of 2015 in order to give the forage base of the pond plenty of time to establish. Also I'm thinking of waiting until May of 2015 to stock YP. Would it be a good idea to go ahead and stock RES this spring or should I wait on these as well? I don't want to take any chance of the RES putting pressure on the forage fish so that's why I'm asking as I'm not sure if they will...

The forage I plan to stock can now be in smaller numbers so this will save me money, but I want to maximize this opportunity to establish a very strong forage base for the bass. So I would appreciate some help on numbers to stock give this new time line of stocking SMB later than originally planned.

The forage I'm planning to stock is FH,GSH, and calico crayfish. If someone could help me establish a firm number of each species to stock in my 3 ac I would appreciate it. I'm stocking LCS and WKF as well, but these will be stocked at a much lower rate this spring as they are very expensive fish.

I don't think its really necessary to stock 100# of FH or 50# of GSH given I have basically 2 full spawning seasons to get ahead of the game, but I don't want to cut corners either. I want all 3 of these species to be very strong by the time I stock SMB.

Any other suggestions of forage fish to try while I have this opportunity? I realize that BNM and SFM may not survive predation but I'm tempted to stock a few any way to give it a shot.

I appreciate any ones help on this!

With 2 seasons ahead of you 100-250 FHM and 25-100 GSH are all you NEED to stock. You can go higher, I'm merely stating you don't HAVE to. Lower QTY FHM allows you to hand sort every fish and verify species. Both fish will spawn multiple times provided the habitat is present - FHM like overhead cover [rock, pallets, trees, roots, vegetation] and GSH need submergent vegetation.

The crayfish will not be as prolific spawners by comparison - that's where I would focus my resources on establishing a higher initial population. I forget Bill's recommendation for a new pond devoid of predators - 200-500/ac? Whichever it was, take that advice to the bank.

Since you will likely miss this spring egg laying and hatch of crayfish I would if feasible for you, stock around 1000/ac or more. If you can't acquire that many stock what you can get. Higher numbers will provide a strong brood stock for next spring crayfish egg production. Once you add the SMB the crays will be heavily be preyed upon and numbers will diminish. Stocking the higher numbers will also help with filamentous algae control as crayfish will eat the FA and Chara common in new ponds.

Thanks TJ and Bill, I'll take your advice and put the money that I originally had planned to spend on FH and GSH and put it toward crayfish. It's nice to know that I'll get some added benefit of FA control from the crayfish since they are so expensive.

The LCS and western banded killifish arrived today and they were very lively! I was impressed by how well they held up in the mail for three days. Here's a few pics of the way the fish were packed and of the larger LCS as they were released.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/1b07c714f786b14ff7b82ba46841f860.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6f1cca148bd8125049d7d9d407f8e340.jpg

These fish were the first fish released into the pond. Tomorrow I will be releasing 5lbs of FHM and 2lbs of GSH.

Jamie I strongly recommend hand sorting the FHM prior to stocking to ensure no invasive species exist. Many of us have been there and made the rookie mistake...two fish of the wrong species can permanently alter your goals. Take the time, hand sort and verify species ID!

I plan to do just that TJ, even if it costs me some of the fish in the process. Is there any good method to do this? Should I get a small aquarium net to handle the fish or just reach in with my hands?

When I stock FHM into my reproduction cells I aerate 100G stock tank and use a small net like you describe to sort 10-15 at a time into a 5G bucket. You can usually do 5-10 visually at one time which helps speed the process depending on your hand size. A BG, BH or Carp really stand out - you only need a brief visual confirmation. I personally don't worry much about Sticklebacks - I toss them if I can but don't lose sleep including them.

If you start getting bored or tired take a break - this is usually when mistakes occur. This is why it's important to keep my FHM aerated so I'm not up against a time crunch - but can take breaks and come back when I'm focused again. Hand sorting 5-10,000 FHM takes some time.

Good size to those LCS. I hope they do well for you. I think they should pull off a spawn next year for you. How many of that size did you get?

Well I got through hand sorting the FHM in a similar manner as you described above TJ. I put them in a bucket, scooped them into the net and pulled out 6-10 at a time by hand. I thought as you said above that I just needed to give each one a quick look and confirm the obvious. Found only FHM in the 5 pounds that I had picked up. I also hand sorted through the golden shiners and they were all good as well. I think the 5# is about all I'd want to do with out aeration.

I may pick up another round of the same amount of FHM 5# and GSH 2# as the amount I put in just didn't seem like much compared to the size of the pond.

CJ, they were nice sized LCS, but I only got 7-8 of that size... Hopefully enough to pull off at least some type of a spawn. The other 22 fish were quite small at about 1" or so. I also released 10 western banded killifish. The 10 was all that Brian could spare for now. I am going to try to get another 20 or so of those from him later in the summer.

That's great news on the purity of the FHM order and good job sorting. You can continue to use that source with additional confidence now that your first order was clean - that's huge.

Thanks for reporting on and providing pictures of the fish in the shipping containers. I've never ordered any fish via being shipped, but nice to know it works in case I need to order some tilipia or something in the future.

Please take pics when you get your crayfish. I'd like to see those.

Don't forget the above fish for JamieE were shipped during cool weather of April. This is very important when shipping fish. The warmer it gets the less likely they will arrive in real good shape with low stress.

What size were the banded killifish? If 2" or more, they should begin spawning once temps hit 70 or so. My only concern is GSH are quite a bit predacious. I just hope they don't go eating the fry and eggs or all your more valuable forage fish. I may have waited to stock them a little later...

The source on the FHM and GSH was Jones fish. They had a fish day in Ft.Wayne and it was convenient. I talked to a couple of the guys and they swore that I wouldn't find anything but FHM in the bag, but I told them I'd sort just to be sure. They laughed and said "go for it, hope you have a lot of time". It did take a little time but it wasn't too bad and I think it was well worth the peace of mind...

We'll hopefully since I stocked the GSH at a very low rate all will be fine. The killifish were probably a little under 2", but Brian acted like they would be ready to spawn pretty quickly this summer.

It was a busy weekend at the pond. Finished the beach and seeded a couple acres of grass including around the pond and one of the 2 large hills.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6794c8c44de8906dda486f078b9b05be.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/5fd9e4c6ae816cb689adf9de7820bfb8.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/a602e098101b589e1dc59481a39c330a.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6b109fd76f399eaf8edbb8ed895dcd71.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/09e03e0cdd42c0ca0a8f5dad6bee6020.jpg

Also I managed to catch what I believe to be a calico crayfish that's full of eggs and I want to confirm the the ID. Also a couple of the eggs hatched while I had the crayfish in a container so I included a photo of the baby crayfish; pretty cool stuff!

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/c243abb31fe476a9681a8185c48611d2.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/18d9d839f1978ae54dc390314bceaf5e.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/7512cd224aa15eddad93ca500442b649.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/b10f49d52d1c7a4e1c418230d23d4479.jpg

I have a quick update on the pond. It appears that the forage base is well on its way as I've noticed literally hundreds or possibly even thousands of fry along the banks of the pond. Not sure what they are as of yet, but when they start to get a little more size I'll catch some for ID. I've been feeding the FH and GSH ground up fish food for at least a couple weeks now and they are really hitting the food.

The pond is very close to full pool and the clarity is getting to be pretty good now that the water line is up to the rock along the bank.

jamie:

If you catch some that are 1/2" long or so, put them in a clear plastic bag (ziploc) and take a clear picture from the side. We can ID some pretty small fish!

I've been walking the edge of the pond almost nightly and feeding the FHM and GSH. The progress they are making is amazing to me. The number of fry in just a few short months is quite surprising to me! Everything I've managed to net so far look to be FHM fry. I haven't added any spawning substrate for the GSH so they may not be spawning yet, but they are definitely growing... They are schooling up and really aggressively feed on the crushed pellet feed that we toss in the pond in the evenings. Also there are thousands of tad poles and frogs already establishing themselves. Looks to be a great start on establishing at least a short term food base for the SMB that will be stocked in the fall of 2015.

I have put my order in for 3000 paper shell crayfish that I hope to add in the next few weeks. Smith Creek is a little behind schedule on the crayfish. They say the crayfish are smaller than usual at this time due to colder waters.

I have been seeing a few 3" fish that are a bit different looking and they tend to live under a specific conrete or rock chunk in shallow water. I'm having a hard time identifying them as they don't sit still long enough for me to get a good look. I throw fish pellets out and they swim out to grab a chunk and go right back under the structure. The same fish seem to stay under the same rock day after day... Does this sound like LCS? The fish look to be darker colored then the FHM and GSH swimming around them. I thought they would be using the deeper water? These fish almost act like they are spawning? There is quite a lot of fry hanging close by to these rocks as well, but I'm not sure if they are FHM or something else? Any guesses as to what this could be?

Do those fish have a dark body but a light colored head?

Not really esshup... I did get a little closer look at one today as I was attempting to catch one for a pic.. The fish looks like a large FHM, but darker in color... Maybe it is a FHM and its spawning under the rock? I haven't looked at too many larger FHM so maybe thats what it is. I was hoping it was a LCS, but don't think it is now. I'll see if I can get a pic of one of them for conformation.

Jeez, the brain was thinking one thing but the fingers typed out another.

I meant dark head with light colored areas on the body.



That's a breeding Male FHM.

You nailed it essup! That's what I've been seeing... Thanks for helping me clear that up.

Can someone identify this young fish please? I'm pretty sure it's not a FHM, as I've been looking at a lot of them lately and it looks a lot different swimming around. I've just now noticed a few of these feeding on the crushed pellets I've been feeding the FHM and GSH. I'm reasonably sure it's a GSH fry, but I'm hoping this pic is clear enough for conformation. Thanks for any help.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/2d9cd79b11fc27f055220acf00ba7d7f.jpg

I may be wrong, but I'll take a stab at it. Try googling Gambusia.....

It's hard to tell in that pic. Take a good close look at the lateral line. If it takes a large dip down then it's a Golden Shiner fry.

I agree with Scott's take - Gambusia or some kind of a topminnow maybe.

Okay, thanks guys. Ill try and catch another and get a pic of one in a clear plastic bag.

Mosquito fish aka Gambusia.

Where did you get the LCS from? I have been trying to find them for an eternity!

I am working to raise Bluntnose Minnows, Spotfin Shiners, and Lake Chubsuckers and provide nationwide LEGALLY as fish will all be NE disease tested and will pass all state importation permit requirements. No more inadvertent violations of state fish import laws so everyone can rest easy at night. Since these are not commercially available, we need a source and I'm trying to change that. Stay tuned!

Well I am very interested! When you get this up and running please keep me on your list of people to notify!

When we're ready to roll I'll post on the forum, with Lusk approval. It's a tedious process to get everything situated from a legal perspective...raising and shipping fish out of state requires very thorough research to avoid violating state and federal laws. Most fish shipments being made from online sources for what the state may consider "exotic" or "non native" fish are violating state and federal regulations for anything other than aquarium stocking. I was surprised to discover that most of us, including myself, are ignorant of that fact - it was enlightening and a wee bit scary, too.

The problem is that there isn't a universal regulation - each state is different. Each state is so different, that there could be different regulations for whether the fish is for food, aquarium use or pond use. If for pond use, then you can possibly break it down into 2 groups. Ponds with permanent inlets/outlets or ponds without - at least that's how Michigan designates ponds.

Then it also could be broken down into areas of the state. I believe Texas has different regs for GC that are in the Lake Fork watershed vs. not in that watershed.

VERY complex!

Scott is correct. Every shipment must be researched and scrutinized as it can vary widely and ignorance is no excuse for violating laws that govern export/importation of fish. Been hearing many stories lately of bait/fish dealers and hatcheries getting into federal issues, hefty fines, bankrupt businesses, and prison time due to minor infractions. It can be done, but must be performed carefully and with deliberation. Consequences are potentially terrifying for both shipper and client. Cross your Ts!

Scott answered the question about state regulations I was about to ask.

Same thing with herbicides. Some online shops will sell herbicides that require applicators licenses in some states, and others won't.

Here for instance, I can buy 2-4D in quarts only. Any volume more than that requires an applicator's license. MSMA, which I use a lot of, is now only available in 2 1/2 gallon jugs. It makes no sense, but that's the law.

TJ, I know you'll do all the legwork, but it seems like a daunting task.

Yes, precisely why they aren't commercially available. Since I perform a lot of due diligence for my small business, I might have more tolerance for wading through details compared to others. Bottom line is pondmeisters with small gape predators need access to these fish, and at $6 a pop I'm going to try and help resolve the supply and demand issues.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/469cbf3e68f2465171466940428d6dba.jpg

Google earth recently updated showing my new pond. Couldn't of ask for better timing! Pic shows all the rock structure that was added and the under water ridges. The detail in this pic will be very valuable to us in the future!

Clear water is nice for showing underwater structure. You are fortunate the timing was correct.

Very fortunate Bill; however the water is clear enough to see alot of this structure anyway. I am starting to be able to see structure that is at least 4' under the surface, but a lot of it is deeper than this so the pic will be helpful in locating those areas.

I was really kind of kicking myself for not hiring someone in a plane to get a shot showing the layout of the pond before it filled. Amazingly Google earth came through for me... Sometimes better to be lucky then good, I guess...

I have a few pics of fish to ID, but the pics aren't real good. I hope to get better pics in the next few days as we've been seeing some different looking fish showing up to feed. I'm hoping to figure out what has successfully spawned in the pond so far this season. I'm going to be setting the minnow trap in order to get some samples of what's swarming the pier every night when we feed. We have some fish feeding on the pellets that are 6-7" long already. The GSH are doing really well, but there appears to be another fish in the mix coming to pellets. A couple of these appear to be the largest fish of the bunch... Could this be LCS eating pellets? I thought they were primarily bottom feeders... ?

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/d7d77f84206600260f5f88d2df0174f8.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/757174ce40b57a98e58714b5c9ee51f0.jpg

Also a pic of one of the GSH I found dead on the bank and the swarm of minnows we see every night when we feed.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/3a9c00726c24234d129add9fef3757d7.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/69db1ffa43ab7624b2bb6f021a10d76a.jpg

Strongly considering buying the 4-5" feed trained Yoy, YP that Cecil has for sale, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to stock them just yet... I've had FHM, GSH and LCS in the pond since April. There is a lot of the GSH that are 5"+, and I've been seeing LCS that range from 3-6" feeding nightly on pellets. There seems to be mobs of FHM all the way around the pond. I also just stocked 3500 paper shell crayfish that were only in the 2-4" range.

My question is how much of an impact would 500-600 feed trained Yoy YP in the 4-5" range be in my 3 acre pond? Sounds like they are very well trained on pellets... How many FHM would they consume over the winter months?

I was looking at fall of 2015 to stock YP and SMB. Thanks for any advice.

Guys don't be afraid to nix Jamie from planting them if you believe it's not a good idea. I honestly don't know. Jamie also wants to know if these fish will spawn in the spring at one year if age if planted this fall. I honestly don't know that either.

I recommend getting Cecil genetics in your pond ASAP. He's been selectively breeding these YP for generations - I'd be exceedingly proud/lucky to have some out here in NE.

I do not believe the qty or size of YP will impact your forage base at all. First, they will continue to focus on pellets which relieves stress from your forage base. Next, consider the gape of a 4-5" YP - can probably barely fit an AM 600 pellet, let alone do much damage on your forage base. A 2" FHM isn't skinny and I think it would be quite a mouthful for a 4-5" YP.

I would stock the YP now while you have access to Cecil genetics - never know what the supply will be next year as fish raising success is far from certain and many factors come to play annually - most of them unforeseen or out of our control.

In regards to spawning - I had 6" gravid females and 5" males milting this Spring - so I think a spawn could happen for you. Recruitment creates an additional, abundant forage base from which the SMB stocking in the Fall of 2015 will benefit. I would not be concerned with YP population management - my SMB, WE and HSB manage my populations TOO well.

Jamie, I second getting the YP. BUT, what I'd do if it was my pond is get busy building cages and throw all the YP in cages until next Fall. If they lay egg skeins this coming spring, pick them out of the cages. That way you'll have them when you want to put them in the pond. Cecil can walk you thru the caging 'em process. He's done it once or twice.

If you need floats for the cages, I have a number of empty 2 1/2 gallon Cutrine Plus containers.....

Jamie,

Be aware overwintering fish in cages can be risky. I've had good luck and I've had very bad luck where every fish in the cage died.

Why should he cage them? I assume he doesn't want recruitment? But, why not? YP YOY won't impact his forage base IMO...guess I'm missing something.

For this situation with "I've had FHM, GSH and LCS in the pond since April." there will be no problem of adding the pellet trained 4"-6" YP this fall. Actually they could have been added when the minnows were added in April. After a summer of FHM spawning there will be very high numbers of YOY FHM. The pellet YP (4"-6") will not significantly impact the FHM population since this size of stocker pellet eating YP will not eat a lot of FHM and the ones they do eat will primarily be 3/4"-1.5" during ice cover and early spring 2015. This leaves the larger FHM for next years breeding season. I have experienced this numerous times previously.

If the pellet trained YP were added in April-May this year and fed pellets there would still be lots of FHM this fall and next spring for brood stock spawning. As long as the YP are fed pellets the FHM will be abundant until the 1st or 2nd spawn of YP recruits are adults and they will then be eating significant amounts of minnows. Youngster YP (1"-3") will also feed fingerling or juvenile SMB. You will likely not see FHM disappear from this pond until the SMB have spawned the first time. By then the other forage GSH, LCS together with YOY YP will be the main forage fish of adult YP and SMB.

Expect at least some of the stocker 4"-6" YP to spawn in 2015 at one year old which frequently happens with well fed, well growing one year old YP. By the end of 2015, one year from now, Jamie should be seeing 8" to maybe a few 10" YP especially if pellets are fed. At end of year two 10" to 12" YP should be common. Keep us advised of your progress. Let's see how close I come to being correct.

I was just thinking that if they were released into the pond, they probably will pull off at least a partial spawn in the spring. Not a big deal if SMB are available next year, but it might lead to too many YP in the pond if SMB aren't available.

Bill has taught me well.

Since the YP considered are still young and 2015 will be their first spawn, the spawn will be limited and small since the egg masses will be small and not abundant. Also with adult GSH present expect to have some or numerous YP fry become food for GSH.

Thanks guys for your input, its much appreciated... Now to get ahold of Cecil and get hooked up on some YP.

Please keep us informed on how your pond advances. Great combo of fish.

I'll be sure to do that Bob. Any bit of future success I may have with the pond will be a direct result of all the very knowledgable, willing to help individuals on this site.

I do have a few up dates with some pics to ad to this thread when I get the extra time. I actually made the 8 hour trip to smith creek in New York to get a truck load of crayfish. The pickup was loaded down with boxes of Crayfish including the back seat of my crew cab.

Tomorrow afternoon I'll be lucky enough to add 500 of Cecil's YP that possess some awesome genetics to the pond! I'm pretty excited about that!

Jamie:

How many papershells was that?

What habitat do you have in the pond for them?

Essup, there was supposed to be 3000 papershells in 15 boxes at 200 to a box. I counted a couple of the boxes and there were on average an extra 50 per box so Im estimating 3750. I also added some from the creek to bring the total to close to 4000.

You can see the structure I added in this thread in the pics back on page 1. Also the areal pic at the top of this page. Its a mix of concrete, rip rap and gravel. The gravel is all the way around the pond and ranges in size from 3" to 8" with most of it being in between those 2 sizes. Its only about 3' wide however. Given the smaller size of this gravel i didnt expect much use by the cray fish but they seem to disappear in it quite well.

We added about 140 ton of large concrete chunks that were dumped in 20 ton piles in 8-13' of water scattered around the pond.

The rip rap I got cheap from a local quarry and its a mix of gravel all the way up to chunks as big as a truck hood, but most of it is 6-12" chunks. This rock was dumped in 15 different piles about 50-100' apart all the way around the banks of the pond. Each pile was 10-20 ton of rip rap. After dumping the rip rap into piles I pushed the piles out perpendicular to the banks and connecting several of them to the larger piles of concrete in deep water. So the rip rap ended up being kind of an under water peninsula 10' to 20' wide and 30' long by a couple feet deep.

In addition to this Ive picked up some used concrete chunks from here and there and have covered about 75'long strip of bank by about 8'wide on a western point. Also have scattered out several small stacks of concrete on the south side in between some of the rip rap peninsulas.

I think were up to 650+ ton of rock added thus far. I just hope its enough to sustain a good number of crayfish for a long term forage for the SMB.

Where'd you get your LCS from?

That will be excellent Crayfish habitat!!!

CJ, got them from Zimmerman. Essup, think I'll be able to maintain a viable population of crayfish with SMB present? I sure hope so with the effort I've put in.

Well, got the YP from Cecil put into the pond today. Wow, I can't believe the size of those fish and how fat they were... Great fish at a very fair price and he even delivered for a more than fair price. The numbers were a little lower than what we thought, but we still got 420 YP and that's a great start!

Nice to meet you today Cecil and Thanks for making the run down to Bluffton, it's much appreciated!

Thank you for the business Jamie. I aso now have room in the tanks in the basement for about a thousand bluegill. Nice to meet you, your wife, and son.

Gorgeous pond too at 3 acres. I was starting to wonder If it was really three acres as all the ponds I was passing on the way to yours were about 1/20th acre. LOL But it's definitely three acres!

With all those rocks there, I think so. Especially if you get pellet trained SMB and feed 'em.

No photos?

I stocked 36 papershell crayfish in 2008 and have a fraction of the rock you have. 6 years later I have a very predator heavy fishery with SMB, WE, HSB, YP, HBCP and my crayfish population is still very strong. I'm confident you'll be fine, and have plenty of additional forage sources to help relieve pressure off their population regardless.

Cecil, there definitely a lot of very small swimming pool ponds around me and they all claim to have 1/4 ac ponds, but in reality are quite short of that. I walked the pond a couple hours after dark and seen 3 or 4 perch up in the shallows just sitting there. I wonder if they were bloated up on FHM, lol. Also crayfish were everywhere! Pretty cool to see all the life in the pond at night. Seen tons of crays, frogs and endless amounts of FHM.

Feed trained SMB are definitely high on the list for next fall Essup. Know any body that could raise some up for me next spring? Im just real nervous next fall will come and SMB will be hard to get a hold of. Nobody I talk to can really quarantee theyll have them...

CJ, pics of the LCS are already up on this thread back on page 4, but heres what they looked like going in.
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6f1cca148bd8125049d7d9d407f8e340.jpg

Unfortunately, one died so I got to see what size they looked like about a month ago. They are hitting the pellets nightly with the GSH.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/7c16b5e398c72be89be0deab3a4d4971.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/e0690ea1d3f473b803dbbc18e635c6ab.jpg

TJ, Hearing of your success with the crayfish from back in 2008 and only stocking 36 makes me feel real good about my situation. Sounds like I went a little above and beyond with my setup...LOL

Here's a few pics of the yellow perch released into the pond yesterday that Cecil delivered. I wanted to show the size and how healthy these fish looked going into the pond!

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/86488bd4fcd347f24d657f3dadb26c86.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/5f69802c3bc54f0f0a02ad4c2bcc6779.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/a1f79a3c6b11c0de3888c03a40870eda.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/57198f82f83fa4d24744447dccaf3dcc.jpg

Jamie, congrats. Your success as mine is definitely due to the guys on here advice but you show that you have thoroughly researched what and when to do and have done a great job following that info.
I'm headed to Fl next Tues but the invitation to fish my pond is open next spring.
Cecil, did you deliver all those YP in one 120 qt cooler? I think from your place to Jamies is probably about 1&1/2 hrs did you aeriate ?

If feed trained SMB are available next Spring, I plan on getting some for other peoples ponds.

Yes I used two of them. One on the back seat and one on in the very back of the wife's suv. The one on the seat was actually a storage tub. The cooler bilge pump and spray bar was hooked to a 12 volt battery, and the other storage tub bilge pump and spray bar was hooked up to a cig liter attachment.

The vehicle was protected with a 6mil plastic drop cloth.

Thanks for that info. How close was on the time guess?

Right on the money Bob.

In the future I'm going to purchase a small utiliity trailer and mount a 100 gallon tank on it I got for free from the Assman Corp in Garrett. It's rectangular and I'll mount a 12 volt agitator to the top.

Essup, do you mean your getting SMB in the spring to raise up and sell for fall stocking? If so how many are you planning on getting and how many can you raise? Im guessing you have a cage or cages you put them in and just keep them fed until fall?

Hey Bob, thanks for the invite to bring the boy up and fish. I think he would enjoy that and it would give him maybe a little taste of things to come in our pond. His patience to have to wait on all this to come together isn't holding up too well. Hes always asking me when he can start fishing. In the last month or so hes actually been fishing for golden shiners and catching quite a few and this has for now satisfied him a bit.

Here are some pictures I took at the stocking event of the yellow perch at Jamie's Pond.

I backed up to this beautiful pea gravel beach. Here are father and son hard at work counting and putting then into the water. I wasn't sure exactly how many I had and preferred they were counted pond side.



Another pic.



A couple of pics of Jamie's 3 acre pond. The pictures don't do it justice. Wanted to get back so didn't really get into depth taking pics of the entire pond.





Here's one of the over 400 yellow perch that were destined for the pond.



One of the transport containers which consists of a 120 qt. cooler with a small Rule bilge pump connected to a frame that has slots cut into it on one side. The frame sets in at a slope and sprays water onto the surface. Very simple to duplicate and works well for hauling smaller fish and lower densities. This idea courtesy of Ken (Catmandoo) as he posted his on the site once and I really liked the idea.

The remaining fish are crowded in the area of the pump to hide from the dip net.

Definitely a lovely BOW. I meant to comment on his rocked shores when he posted his pictures and did not get it done. Super nice.

I am so jealous of this pond!

That is one healthy looking YP. Did you take WR measurements? I'll wager that's 130+, easy.

Cecil or Cody YP genetics are coveted - great foundation for any fishery - I am happy for you but a tad envious, too. One of the advantages working with smaller, boutique hatcheries is that they literally pour their heart and soul into each fish they sell, and the results are readily evident. If anyone ever has the opportunity to introduce genetics from passionate experts like like Cody, Condello, Baird, Tony, Al, George, Esshup, Shorty, Yolk, Cat etc. you are way ahead of the game in producing an excellent fishery. I wouldn't hesitate stocking fish from any of them for a second and would consider myself fortunate.

Now you just need some Hudland SMB, and your fishery will be well on it's way!

I should have weighed one but prefer to handle fish as little as possible. They fed well in the ras tank at a good density.

Very nice yellow perch and expect them to be double in size at 8"-10" by next fall of 2015 assuming they have ample food. Sometimes YP will struggle in a minnow heavy pond when the YP have strong tendencies for eating pellets. Even in 3 acres if noise is made in the pond at feeding time such as splashing water or tapping on the dock or the rocky bottom prior to feeding, this noise will draw in the inquisitive perch from fairly far distances to eventually see the pellets and resume eating pellets. Pellet trained YP are accustomed to looking at the surface for floating food. Be sure to feed high protein (40%-42%) pellets.

In a situation like this I find it is usually very beneficial to use a floating feeding to contain the pellets in a small area 6-12ft offshore so the pellets do not float to shore and become useless to the YP. Feed small amounts of pellets at first until the YP locate the feeding area. Minnows will feed on pellets in the ring and this activity often draws in the YP or other pellet trained fish. YP have schooling tendencies. Once a few perch find the pellets it does not take very long for remaining fish to find the feeding area. When YP find the feeding area, most of them will not stray far from this buffet area. Try to feed at the same time every day and feed at times similar to when Cecil feed these perch. YP are pretty strong creatures of habit tendencies.

I have not seen any of the 25 6-8" YP we put in our 1-acre pond last Fall, and did not see any egg strands or young this year. We did not feed and did not find any dead ones. Even so, I am planning to add 10 or 12 4" SMB this fall. There are plenty of small minnows near the edges, but they appear to be the shape of FHMs. I also have not seen any of the GSH we put in last Spring, but again no dead fish. We have some weeds, including some curly-leaf pondweed, but not much. Our domestic waterlilies are doing OK also. There are plenty of small frogs as well. Hopefully the few SMB will be able to get the cycle going.

Some of the YP I released from the cage have done well staying on pellets, and the number of fish which feed at the surface appears to be increasing. I have high hopes that more will come back to the feed.

Thanks guys for the compliments on the pond. We're very pleased with the way it's progressed in the first year and excited about things to come!

Hudland SMB? TJ , Could I get more info. on these please? Bill we've been feeding just as we always do and also throwing pellets out further into open water... Can't say if the perch have found the pellets yet, but haven't noticed any.

Cecil, what time did you feed the perch? Maybe as Bill said they're looking for pellets at a different time then were feeding.

I feed all my fish in late evening Jamie. Don't worry if you don't see any for several days or even until next spring. That's a lot of water for 4 to 5 inch fish. And considering the small size of the fatheads I saw, they may be more interested in them initially.

I find it usually takes up to a week or two before newly planted fish start feeding normally too. Hauling is a stressful situation for them.

That makes sense Cecil. Well just keep doing what we're doing and see what happens. I'll try to tap on the pier with something at feeding time and maybe that will help get they're attention.

Build that feeding ring up to 6 ft in dia. Anchor it near the dock where you can toss pellets into it. It will help more than you realize.

I'll give the ring a go Bill. I'm just concerned that we'll have so many minnows, shiners ans LCS feeding on the pellets that they won't have a chance to find them floating inside. All Pellets are inhaled very quickly as we feed. Guess maybe I could feed heavily near the pier to start and throw pellets out further into the ring after the small fish are up close and busy feeding.

One thing to do is feed larger pellets that the minnows cannot swallow right away. The perch you got from Cecil in the picture is big enough to eat Amax 5D06 (9/32") aka AM600 size pellet. A 5" YP has a mouth gape of 1/2"; twice the size of a AM600 pellet. LCS will not eat pellets. Minnow feeding activity will attract the perch. Once perch figure out where the pellet buffet is, rest assured the perch will get their share of the pellets.

Bill, we have GSH in the 5"+ range that are very aggressively eating pellets! They'll consume as many as we feed within reason. I'm surprised that you say the LCS won't eat pellets because we have 6-7" fish that sure appear to be LCS eating the pellets just as aggressive las the GSH. They look just like the one we found floating about a month ago... They look kind of similar to a bass while swimming, but have much smaller mouths. They look distinctly different then the GSH.

If you got your LCS from Zimmerman I am betting they were pellet trained from a young age and are pellet feeding.

I personally wouldn't go to a 5D06 even if you think they are big enough to eat them. I's stick with what I saw Jamie had which appeared to be slightly smaller than 5D05. Just my opinion of course. Jamie had feed from Zeiglers when I was there.

Jamie,

Do you have a local supplier of Zeigler's feed?

Years ago on the forum I think someone theorized that feeding smaller pellets enables fish to ingest more, and over the years, equate into faster growth due to increased consumption/nutrition. Smaller the pellet, the more one can fit into a certain volume container - like a stomach. Weight of 1/4 cup of AM - the heaviest would be 500, followed by 600, and LMB formula would come in last due to the additional air space between pellets. Does this theory hold up? If the fish will target smaller pellets, it might. My larger SMB and HSB prefer pellets in this order: AM LMB, AM 600, and they sometimes ignore AM 500 altogether, even when it's all that's available. Toss in a few AM LMB pellets and the water erupts and they'll feed for 45 minutes.

Interesting topic - do you feed the largest pellet possible, or the smallest?

From the studies on feeding.

Because fish growth often is limited by food availability, supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments as the energy cost for bluegill to feed on pellets is small relative to the high caloric intake, which can be 4-5 times greater than those fed natural foods (Schalles and Wissing 1976).


Substantial increases in the standing stock of bluegill in ponds that receive pellet feed have been recorded (Schmittou 1969) and, in lakes, pellet feeding has been found to increase the number of large bluegills (Nail and Powell 1975).


These results indicate that total fish production and production of bluegill were each increased approximately 75 to 80% by supplemental feeding in 19 months after stocking (Schmittou 1967)


Previous studies demonstrated that feed in excess of 10 pounds per acre per day in bluegill ponds was not utilized. Some accumulated and decomposed, thus depleting the supply of dissolved oxygen which resulted in fish kills (Schmittou 1967) .


the rate of growth of sunfish can be increased by short-circuiting the food cycle, thereby producing harvestable size sunfish in a shorter period of time than would occur under natural conditions (Carnes 1966).


The pellet size should be approximately 20-30% of the size of the fish species mouth gape. Feeding too small a pellet results in inefficient feeding because more energy is used in finding and eating more pellets. Conversely, pellets that are too large will depress feeding and, in the extreme, cause choking. Select the largest sized feed the fish will actively eat.

Addition of supplemental pelleted feed did not contribute to the rate of growth of young shad, but did increase the growth and spawning frequency of adults.

Thanks Eric good timing. To address the situation above I broadcast both AM 500 and 600 in my feeders to hopefully address feeding smaller and larger fish. I have to hand feed the AM LMB pellets on my visits to the ponds - maybe 3x weekly. Not sure they benefit much from such infrequent feedings, but it's a blast to watch the fireworks show.

I feed a mix of AM500 and AM600 in my pond as well.

At the moment I have eight RES in my aquarium in the house and my largest one which is 6-1/2" to 7" won't eat AM600 pellets just yet, but has no problem eating up to ten AM500 pellets in a few minutes. Pellet size does matter.

I only feed 500 in all of our ponds. Our fish are used to this particular size, and it has produced well for us. Esshup did bring down some 600 for me to try, and there was minor interest but nothing like the activity on the 500. Conditioning is so prevalent....just ask Scott how many bluegills he caught on the 600 sized Stubby Steve's.

I do think there's something to be said for the smaller pellets simply fitting together better, (as in a higher quantity) in a confined space, but I'm not sure what effect a softening of the water soaked pellet might have, and I'm also unsure if this applies to a variable space, (like a stomach), as it does to a fixed space.

I know I have watched a single fish pluck 25-30 AQ500 pellets many times, with the record being 37 pellets eaten at one feeding.

I get the Zeiglers pellets from a dealer in Ft.Wayne. I bought that smaller size for the shiners and still have a half a bag left so I will use it up before buying more or anything different. We also have some lower grade catfish food that we've been grinding up for the FHM. It's a little larger and the shiners seem to struggle to get them down.

Jamie,

Who is the dealer in Ft. Wayne?

Very Interesting. I'm feeding about 2.5# per day max. Less if the fish are not hitting the pellets well like back when when the water was so hot in summer.

What would be a safe amount to go to without risking fish kills? Five pounds? 7 pounds? I really don't want to push the limits too much, and risk a fish kill. Using aeration.

Been eating a few of the CC (and an occasional BG if we accidentally gut or gill hook one) but the CC are only about a pound. Takes two of them to feed my wife and I about right. Can't wait for them to get to 2 pounds so one fish equals one meal. I never was crazy about catfish before, but these things fresh out of the pond are delicious! They taste 95% as good as the BG, which really surprises me. Sometimes the restaurant CC I've eaten in the past seemed kind of oily, which I did not care for. Not these.

So now I'm wanting to pack some pounds on them by next year.

Cecil, I got the pellets from Jones fish. Do you know of another dealer near me that may be a better option? They only carry their Silver line, which is 34% protein and Id like to start getting their gold line which has protein levels in the 40%'s. How does the Zeigler compare to purina?

How close are you to Kalida Ohio?

Bill, I'm about 90 min from Kalida.

Okay - Remlinger Fish Farm - they have the Zeigler feed you are looking for in various sizes. Call and ask about size availability and pricing.

P.M. me.

I agree on the conditioning! 3#-5# LMB in my pond will swim past a Purina LMB pellet to grab AM600 pellets.

But how many LMB did sprkplug catch on the AM500 vs. AM600 pellets?

You mean you were deliberately targeting those nasty LMB thingies?? Huh. I've heard that some folks do that.

I thought you needed some of the larger ones removed?

I still do, but I'm hoping they die from lack of forage. I don't want to actually have to handle one.

Jamie your pond is fabulous. I have taken many of your ideas and used it on my new pond. In looking at all of your photos I do have one question, and by no means am I the safety police. Why do you operate your tractor with the ROPS bar down and no counter weight on the rear?

Todd, I rarely use my ROPS or seat belt. After almost flipping the whole works, I had the liquid added to the rear wheels. Now, I doubt that I could flip it if I tried. Well, knowing me, I probably could.

My tractor shed is too low for me to get the tractor in with the ROPS.

I have a lot of low hanging really large oak branches that I couldn't get under with the ROPS.

I no longer drink beer when I get into those kind of situations working sideways on a hill.

Actually, after almost flipping the dang thing I just no longer even work sideways on a hill. One time pretty well cured me of not thinking when using the FEL on a tricky spot.

But, you pose a good question. I just might be found someday all wadded up under the darn thing.

ToddM, I'm a bit different than Dave, I operate with the ROPS up, but I'm normally on and off so much that a seatbelt is really a PITA. I know enough and can think quick enough that I need to hold on if it's going over, and keep my feet on the floor.

I was a supervisor in a steel warehouse. We'd have to take the fork lift outside to load wire mesh onto contractors trucks. Seatbelts had to be worn. One of the guys went out to load a truck, didn't pay attention to what he was doing and tipped the fork lift on it's side. Yes, he had his seatbelt on. But, the dumba.. stuck his foot out like you'd do on a bicycle to keep from tipping over. The result? Compound fracture......

Just like hard hats that had to be worn there. I didn't see the point. Yes, they'd protect your head from bumps and scrapes. I don't know how much they'd help if a couple thousand pound stack of steel sheets fell from the crane tho. What good is a hard hat going to do if you're squished like an ant on the bottom of somebody's shoe?

Thanks for the comments about the pond Todd. I agree that my pics of the tractor are not a very good example of how to be safe running a tractor. I normally would have some type of weight on the back of the tractor for example a roto-tiller, but in this case the tiller would have prevented me from backing up once I pushed the rocks out into the pond. I got in a few situations where the tractor had to climb back over builders and this would have been impossible with equipment on the back. It was a very sticky situation, but really the only way to get the job done. I run the tractor without the ROPS most of the time as I work in open flat fields and they do not fit through the door of the barn where I park the tractor.

Hey Jamie, I'm down in Fl and am wondering what the water temps are up there. Also are you still feeding those YP ya got from Cecil?

Bob, just in time for the hurricane? You sure bailed out of here fast!!! You're missing the low 40°F temps, 10-15 mph NW winds and the 1/2" of rain that we've had today.

Scott,

I'm not seeing a hurricane in the Florida area. Are you?

Dang Scott, your makin me feel bad for havin to suffer through the upper 80s. As is most often the case the hurricane is on the right side of the state. Seems like the ocean is more productive than the gulf. When things do get stirred up in the gulf it seems that it is usually north of where I am. Stay warm.

This is what I get for opening my mouth before checking facts. I thought it was also going to sideswipe Florida, because I thought Bermuda was further South.

Oops......

http://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2014/10/16/hurricane-gonzalo-bermuda/17345911/

Haven't seen any sign of the YP feeding as of yet... I'm sure the water temps have dropped alot, but as of few days ago the FHM and GSH were still feeding well. That was before the latest cold front and high winds we've had over the last few days.

Were gearing up for the deer season right now and moving some of the stands we should of moved earier in the year when we didnt have time.
My number one goal this season is to get Gabe, my son on his first bow kill. He's really showing an interest in bow hunting and is asking to go alot, which makes me very happy!

He has became very active this year in the preparation for the season. Been a big help with things like planting food plots, mowing and trimming around fruit trees and hanging stands. It's really nice to have help with these things, but more importantly a good thing for him to see all the preparation that goes into a season and not just go sit in a stand over a food plot and harvest a deer.

Enjoy that warm weather down there Bob, were looking at 60s for highs and I'm sure down hill from there...

The YP will get hungry and some will revert to eating pellets rather than chase minnows. I have found that as the optimal forage size FHM become scarce the YP will look for alternative foods. Keep feeding pellets. Minnow activity eating pellets will attract the YP to the area either for easy to catch FHM or easier to eat pellets. YP are school or grouping fish. I predict when some YP locate the pellet feeding area a lot of YP will show up for pellet additions. Note this may not happen until right after the first spawn when spawned out YP are hungry and looking to regain good body condition and fat asap.

Does anyone think it odd that I have seen no sign of the 50 GSH stocked last spring or the 25 7-9" YP and 25 3-4" RES stocked last fall in a 1 acre pond? No sign of the fish or fry. Lots of FHM of all sizes can be seen easily. Is this just too few fish in a 1 acre pond to expect to see them? I expected the YP to spawn in spring, but did not see any sign of this.

That is not very many fish in an acre.

No experience with YP.

The only time I would expect to see RES is in spring in shallow water during spawn. Other than that don't ever expect to see them unless you catch one. They likely were not big enough to spawm this last spring.

You should be able to sample GSH with a minnow trap.

Edit: If the RES were put in early enough last fall they might have reached maturity and spawned. I put some fingerling RES in this spring and saw them making nests late summer but don't think they were successful at recruitment.

GSH are more open water minnows but I've caught them in minnow traps baited with pellets, if your fish are used to pellets.

RAH - what kind and size of predator fish are in the pond?

Only FHM, GSH, RES, and YP. Next will be LCS, and then SMB, but I want to see GSH and YP fry before the SMB. I will only add 10 to 12 SMB when I am ready.

How do you know that some of the YOY minnows do not include small GSH maybe 5%-20%? Your strong forage fish populations could be eating the YP new hatch vulnerable swim-up fry. Did you place some twiggy tree limbs in shallow water along the shore to see if YP were laying eggs?

The minnows could contain GSH fry. I did not see any fry that had the shape of YP. I have several piles of tree limbs but did not see egg strands. I just may need to wait longer. Hopefully, I did not get all of one sex.

It would be a good idea to add some more YP this fall to increase the changes of mixed sex; maybe 25-40 4"-6". They are not expensive around 1.35ea.

My problem was finding them close by. I paid a lot for the large one's I got last year from Jones. I did not find any dead, so hopefully I have at least one pair left.

Cody Note: Your hesitation to drive 2-3hrs for some YP reduces your options. American Pond & Lake Management Russiaville, IN may have some YP next spring.

Id like to get some opinions on stocking 3-4" feed trained SMB this fall vs. stocking larger ones next fall... I'd like to stock for my first SMB spawn for 2015 to coincide with my first really strong YP spawn. If I do stock them this fall I'd keep the numbers down with hopes of keeping pressure off the forage base. What would be a good number to stock with this in mind? I was thinking something like 60 fish in 3.5 acres... (Took measurements off new google earth pics and realized I actually got a 1/2 ac bonus!). Is this number too low? This seems like a really low number to stock...

FHM, GSH and LCS were stocked in Mid April. These fish were fed all summer and seemed to do quite well. FHM numbers seem to be quite high, GSH are 5-6" and the LCS are in the 3-6"+ range. 3500 crayfish were stocked in mid Sept. and 420~ 4-5" YP were stocked a few weeks ago.

I have continued to add rock to the pond all summer and really feel like there is an abundance of rocky habitat for the crayfish. I think the GSH and LCS should be big enough to survive unless I'm mistaken?



I'd like to hear the positives and negatives of both scenarios. Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

This has gotten to be a long, very educational thread; if I remember correctly, your goal is for some really trophy quality smallmouth [if I'm mistaken, apologies and disregard].

In this scenario--

1] I would keep my inital stocking VERY SMALL-I'd go for 20-25 fish. They'll have a perfect environment for exponential growth. When they start reproducing, your forage base is going to decline in a precipitous exponential manner, and if your initial stocking is even moderate, those big fish at the apex just won't have enough to eat to take them from the 2-3# range to the 4-5# range.
2] If you do stock this fall [and I think this is a good idea] I wouldn't bother with the extra expense of feed trained fish. For one thing, you won't be feeding them over much of the winter. You have plenty of forage to sustain them, and given an absolute feast such as you've laid out, many of them would come off pellets anyway. Add the feed trained fish in the spring, you can start feeding right away and reap the benefits from their training.

You've got a fantastic pond, and it'll be really interesting to see how your smallies and forage base interact over the next few years. My suspicion is that you'll not be sorry if you start with a small number of SMB--you'll definitely have recruitment, and although smallies don't have the same reputation for voraciousness as LMB, given ideal prey species, they're extremely efficient.

FWIW, the SMB in my pond remember how to eat pellets from year to year, and I didn't feed at all last winter. IIRC 6 months without pellets.

I agree, smaller number is better for your goals.

At the risk of nitpicking...3-4" age 0 SMB could be your suppliers runts/least desirable fish from this year - so if that's your only option, you should keep that in mind. Runt fish do not represent the genetics you want to achieve trophy status.

As a comparison, the smallest SMB I collected this year from my reproduction/growout cell was just under 4" - most ranged 4.5-6" with a dozen that were amazingly 7-7.5" and my top fish was just under 8". In order to serve as a comparison with your source - my fish spawned in late May this year and grew out for just under four months. If your fish are from way up North, the later spawn and shorter growing season might account for some difference in size, but I shouldn't think it would represent that much difference.

Just something to keep in mind - I'd be looking for 5-7" SMB this time of year or would wait until the following season. If you are having issues sourcing SMB - I'm sure Esshup, Cody, Cecil or Rex can help you. I'd be proud to have some Hudland SMB up in IN, but the list next year is already pretty long and there's no guarantees with SMB recruitment - I'd hate to be unable to deliver on a promise. Thankfully SMB are finally catching on in NE!

Yolk, Holy cow only stock 25 fish total or per acre? I assume you were talking total...Thats a bit surprising to me for a 3 1/2 ac pond. I get what your saying about keeping the numbers down so they can thrive, but will we even know theyre there with that low of numbers?

TJ, I kind of wondered about that size being runts of the year, but thought it would be best to keep them small as not to risk my forage brood stock. Will 5-7" fish be safe with the fish sizes in the pond?

If anyone has any info. on who may have some good quality SMB in stock Id appreciate any recommendations...

Thanks guys!

Fish Farms that are in it for mainly money will crowd SMB into the growout pond and often the average size of YOY in fall is 3" maybe 4". If trophy SMB is the goal it is wise to locate larger YOY stockers. The growth of inches that is lost the first year is always reflected in the smaller final size of the adult. Fall 3" sized SMB will make it to 4-5 lbs but not likely larger. BE aware that some fish places may be selling 6"-8" SMB in fall that are 2 yr old, however almost all SMB sell out in fall or the next spring.

I think it just depends on your goals. Balanced fishery with good population of 2lb range smallies? Definitely too low. Chance of a few fish pushing 5 or 6 lbs in a reasonable time frame? Probably not off the mark. As I mentioned, you've done a spectacular job of being patient, developing a great forage base, now you have to decide how you want to utilize it. If you're really interested in growing exceptional smallies, keeping the initial stocking numbers low will be really important. Eventually you'll have a pond with a lot of smaller smallies anyway, unless you do a lot of culling, so your initial stocking, and the explosive growth that accompanies the introduction of predators to most well prepared new ponds, is your best chance to develop some really spectacular fish.
Put another way, if you do 25 fish/acre, in a year or two you'll likely have 50-60 [or more, depending on survivorship] 2lb smallies which will need to consume a couple hundred pounds of forage to gain that next pound to become 3 pounders--all the while competing with their own offspring. Yes, some will take pellets, which will take some of the load off, but I think they'll prefer the natural forage, and may well grow better on it.

A low density stocking strategy will work to grow big SMB, keep in mind that following their first spawn you will likely have a large year class of smaller SMB as they work to fill the void. Your initial stocking fish will likely be difficult to catch.

"Smaller smallies"? I stand here aghast. What about diminutive? Or petite?

All is not right with my world on this October morn.




Seriously, I agree with Yolk. It's all coming down to goals, and what you want from the pond.

You're just mad because we've created a 23 page thread about something other than HBG.

Hey I'm all about sharing the spotlight. Even something like a ba... a ba... a baa....a member of the micropterus clan deserves a few minutes of fame.

I could have phrased that better.

How about a large subsequent year class of SMB that with a lot of competition that are long and lean due to the heavy competition? I stocked my little pond late in October 2011 with 5-8" SMB and they pulled off a spawn the following spring. That 2012 year class is now 10-1/2" and they all have a very lean look to them, I have been working on thinning them down.

Man, tough crowd this morning....let me try this again:

After introduction of an apex predator, anterograde progression through the time space continuum absent external population control depletes the most abundant forage base, resulting in protein-calorie based phenotypic degradation from heretofore robust individuals to a collection of rather ravenous asthenics.

Intellectual whips...like the kid who takes the football home. Notice how the conversation abruptly ended?

Ahhhh......much better. Put a smile on my face even in the doctors office.

Actually, I liked the less complicated, easier to understand explantion...Lol.

I guess by going with the lower number of say 25 fish for the first stocking you kinda of in a way get the best of both worlds as long as you do in fact have the predicted successful reproduction of the SMB. Have the best chance for truly large fish with the first stocking and get to catch a large amount of fish after they reproduce...

Shorty, why do you say the first stocking of SMB will likely be tough to catch? Because there will be so few or because they will get educated quickly and become hook shy?

[/quote]
After introduction of an apex predator, anterograde progression through the time space continuum absent external population control depletes the most abundant forage base, resulting in protein-calorie based phenotypic degradation from heretofore robust individuals to a collection of rather ravenous asthenics.

[/quote]

Don't ya just hate it when that happens?

Man those words ain't even in my spell checker.

In a nutshell, lot's of food and very little competition. You can get around hook shyness by mixing up the lures that you fish with.

I have GSH in my pond and a very large size class of 6" GSH that are simply too large for my "petite" SMB to utilize, but they are just about perfect size for the small number of SMB that I initially stocked.

That makes sense shorty. How long have the 6" GSH been in the pond? I seen you said you stocked 5-8" smb in October 2011, How large are the original SMB now? What other forage are present for these larger fish?

I have YP, RES, SMB, and GSH my 1/4 acre pond. 3 dozen GSH were stocked in June of 2011 along with with 5-6 dozen FHM. The current 6" GSH are offspring of the original 3 dozen that I stocked.

The original 20 SMB are now 15-1/2" to 16-5/8" but I seldom catch them. I also stocked another 50 feed trained SMB in 2012 not knowing that my initial 20 SMB had pulled off a spawn. That first SMB spawn also had a lot of competition from GSH while they were young which led them to being somewhat lean which is still evident today.

New ponds are fun to watch the boom and bust cycles of things living in it.

I think my brain just broke.

Who's on first?

Pat W

Noting unusual. Yok is just whuppin up on Sparky.

Noting unusual. Yolk is just whuppin up on Sparky.

Yolk has been watching too much Big Bang Theory. LOL.

You can say that again.
I've been trying to get my own back ever since he utterly humiliated me in The Great Testosterone Debate.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that. How curious.

I have my main pond stocked with several cool water species apex predators, including SMB [YP, WE, HBCP, HSB]. Also, I manage several fisheries with SMB locally, and raise them on my hobby hatchery for distribution...my point being - they are my favorite fish!

Dave's suggestion to stock 5-10/acre would follow my direction to a client in order to achieve a truly trophy SMB fishery. Appropriately sized forage should be abundant, competition low, prime feeding/ambush areas plentiful and the SMB will respond with rapid growth. I think you have a real shot of growing some 4+ females in this scenario - maybe larger.

HOWEVER - before you commit to this goal, remember that establishing the trophy SMB fishery goal also means angling rate will be low due to abundant forage and low population. If they are constantly well fed, their response to angling may not be as aggressive as you'd come to expect from SMB. It's entirely possible you will never catch all those fish, and some fish will become hook shy quickly. Changing presentations per Steve can help, but my "trophy" HSB [24"+] and SMB [17"+] will only fall for live bait or pellet fly imitations now in their 7th year. They've seen everything else and have become very wary.

Not intimating this is a deal breaker, but you may only sample some of these "trophy" SMB once or twice a season, and supplemental stocking down the road might be necessary if you want catch rates to improve. Of course, if you have recruitment from the original brood stockers, the supplemental stocking may be unnecessary. GSH are relentless on YOY SMB, however...I've seen pods of 1000 SMB fry reduced to handful in a week or two - they are very slow and visible and hang close to their nest area. SMB are also highly cannibalistic...I estimate I raise less than 1% of my SMB fry to adults annually due to starvation and cannibalism. Crazy attrition rates!

Just something to keep in mind when going the trophy route...if you are interested in more of a middle ground, I recommend to clients anywhere from 25-75/acre. High side if they are pellet trained, have little time to fish and want action when they can make the time. This advice is especially designed for the absentee land owner who may only get to fish a dozen times annually - when they are on site, they want action! Their position makes sense, too.

TJ - That is great SMB raising advice. I should be in the Archives.

Thanks for the post TJ, I'm really struggling with this as I have a fourteen year old son who loves to fish and wants to catch fish... I may very well go with a higher stocking rate to meet a middle road in order to get a higher catch rate... Those 2-3# SMB are still alot of fun to catch even though they aren't "trophies".

JamieE, since you will be feeding, and the YP will be growing fast, why not stock some HSB? They won't spawn, they are usually pellet trained, and will fight pretty good. Remove as caught to eat or release back into the pond. Keep the low number of stocked SMB, to keep on track with your goal of trophy SMB, but target the HSB and YP for the majority of fish to catch?

I concur with Scott and I encourage my few cool water clients to follow this same stocking plan, especially since you will lack an aggressive panfish species for kiddos to tangle with. RES can be caught, but less frequently than BG or PS - and it only takes one drag screaming run of a HSB to get a kid addicted for life.

You could ladder stock 10-20 HSB annually as your harvest plans and fishery dynamics dictate. HSB and SMB will help manage the YP population but pellet feeding will help ease pressure off your forage base, too.

Have you considered ladder stocking some bonus WE also? I do this, and it's a blast.

On the topic of panfish species: Have you considered HBG? If you selected Male only you could have a nice companion panfish species that's aggressive, grows fast and large, can be easily pellet trained, and won't reproduce except with RES creating an interesting BRESGSF hybrid. Just a thought - Tony would be the expert to consult on his thoughts RE HBG.

Have you considered RBS? Travis, who has a lot of firsthand experience with, thinks they could be a good cool water, limited gape companion panfish species as they are more fusiform and not as fecund as PS or BG. They are pretty fish, run smaller than BG but IIRC larger than PS. I also think they spawn in Fall, which would leave their YOY very vulnerable to predation with lack of vegetation all Winter long, so population management might not be an issue. I have never seen a RSB/RES hybrid, and if you managed a late RES spawn and could produce one, it would be spectacular scientific news!

Just some ideas...love your fishery regardless, it's shaping up to be very interesting and will help add to the volumes of knowledge on the forum.

I totally relate! In my case, I have BG forage base so I can push the numbers on SMB, HSB, et al in an effort to manage the BG population...that's a very important difference in your fishery and most others on the forum. I have a very unique predator heavy/forage heavy fishery that, for now, is balanced in a manner that achieves my goals. Lot's of mistakes mandated corrective strategies [150 HSB, 100 WE, 150 HBCP, 300 SMB] that I learned from the forum. Nate was one of the first to push the envelope and suggest ridiculous qty of HSB and SMB can manage BG...and he was right!

Back to your fishery - You could always start on the trophy run, with limited initial stocking rate, and once you grow your girls up to size you could supplementally stock more SMB in a few years in case recruitment isn't happening. There isn't a wrong way to address this - supplemental stocking or culling/harvest can nudge your fishery in the direction you want it in a relatively short period of time [2-3 seasons].

One thing is certain: Experiencing the fruits of your painstaking research and labor will be one of the most rewarding experiences of your lifetime, guaranteed. We, too, will benefit as a community and can help direct new efforts to establish similar fisheries.

Oh crap, there goes the neighborhood.
Ya happy now, Sparkie? Thread only made it one more page.

If fish are sourced out of state, depending on what state they are sourced from dictates what permit is needed to import them.

I received this from the State in August, 2014:


So, finding some of the less common fish might prove to be difficult or at the very least more expensive.

HSB and SMB seem to be pretty compatible and work good together also in my experiences especially if pellets are fed. I had a couple ponds where SMB recruited young smallies when 10-12 HSB/acre were present and pellets were fed only occasionally 1-2/wk. Not sure how many more could be stocked if pellets were fed daily to keep HSB focused on pellets and not small fish.

7" GSH (caught tonight)


16-1/2" SMB (one on my original stockers 3 years ago)

I have actually thought about adding HSB, but won't they further lean on the forage base similar to additional SMB? I know they are much easier to keep on pellets then the SMB will be so I assume they may not be as tough on the forage as Smallies would be? If they'll be similar I'd probably prefer to add SMB instead. I could add a few of them to at least try, but to be honest they don't really fit into my vision for the pond. I really like SMB!! They would have to be my favorite fresh water fish by far!

I'm definitely not ruling the HSB out, but I think I'll hold off for now and see how things are going in a couple years.

The HBG are probably not going to be much of a consideration for me ( sorry spark). Ive heard they bite swimmers horribly and my wife would not like that at all! Also I just don't like the looks of the things... They look too much like green sunfish to me and I personally dislike them. Now the the RBS is a different story... Those are beautiful fish! If I was sure they would not over populate and stunt I'd be real interested. I wasn't aware that they we're fall spawners. That's definitely an interesting fact! Anyone know if they bite swimmers similar to BG?

I really appreciate you guys and all the compliments and interest in the pond, but I really owe it to all to you guys. Every bit of success I may enjoy will come directly from the knowledge I've gained from this site.

I agree that the end result for us with the pond will be extremely rewarding and it's awesome to see a dream take shape!

Personal observation: our HBG are less problematic than native BG when it comes to biting swimmers. Sure they can bite, but think about it....who here has been bitten by a 3/4 lb. native BG? Not many I'll bet. It's those hordes of 2-3" fish that are the nippers, not the larger fish.

If HBG are utilized and managed accordingly, there should be extremely limited numbers of smaller fish...recruitment, after all, is not desirable. HBG are put and take fish, and adding 3-5" individuals as needed is the accepted practice. At that size, instances of swimmers being bitten should be very short lived, if it occurs at all.

We've had HBG stocked in our swimming pond for 5 years. My wife, kids, nieces, nephews, all swim there. Biting is not an issue.

Our native ponds on the other hand, can be a different story. We have recruitment, and plentiful numbers of those 2-3" biters.


Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out a personal observation.

It's interesting - several people have posted about BG nibbling on them. I have never experienced this - ever, and I've been swimming in BG waters since I was 2. Guess I should credit BG for their discriminating taste.

"I really appreciate you guys and all the compliments and interest in the pond, but I really owe it to all to you guys. Every bit of success I may enjoy will come directly from the knowledge I've gained from this site."
Jamie, well spoken, accurate and is true for a lot of us. The only bad things in/around my pond are results of my ignorance or not listening. I do think you are being a bit modest tho. Seems like ya may have contributed a good deal of labor and good planning and deserve a pat on the back.
As for the HSB, they are very fun to catch, do not reproduce and can be put and taken as desired. If you add more SMB, with all of the bedding areas you have they MAY want to over reproduce. With the size of your pond I don't see where a dozen or so HSB for an added thrill would be so bad.
Also thanks for providing so much info in this cool thread.

Hey Bob, hows the Florida sun treating ya?! No pats on the back for me Im just all ears when these guys are offering up advice from theyre past experience... I feel fortunate that alot of these guys have already made some of the mistakes Im sure I would have made with out theyre advice.

Well I pulled the trigger on some SMB and will be putting them in the pond this afternoon along with 900 RES. The pellet fed SMB are pretty tough to come by so I feel fortunate to be getting them. They will be 5"+ fish and originated out of Wisconsin. So this I'm sure has something to do with them not being larger in size. I decided to go with 50 fish for now with hopes that they will grow well and have some limited reproduction to further stock the pond and give us more fish to catch in the future.

These fish are coming from Jones fish. I know some of the guys on here are not real fond of the way this company hauls fish, but I have had great luck with theyre forage species so I'm going to give them a shot. The truck is coming right to the pond. The fish arent cheap, but they are supposed to be super nice and healthy fish so I will find out later today.

The RES Im getting are supposed to be raised in a monocultured pond so Im hopeful I dont have to worry much about a different mix of sunfish species being present. Can RES be easily recognized against other sunfish species at smaller sizes? Im getting 2-4" and 4-6" RES.

If it were me I would look at each RES before putting it into the pond just to make sure you don't have an unwanted GSF or HBG in the mix.

I got a few additional RES from a fish truck after my initial stocking and here is what was in the mix. The HBG/GSF never made it into my pond. Top two are RES, bottom two???

Small RES should look like this, the red on the ear tab might not be visible on RES under 3".

Thanks for the pics shorty! That will be helpful in helping me identify the fish correctly. Last thing I want is GSF in the pond!

I don't have a problem with Jones delivering fish. They aren't the least expensive around, but I've never had a wrong fish from them. I haven't had good luck when picking up fish from them in bags at their Ft. Wayne office, but good results when they are delivered on the truck.

I have more RES pictures posted in this thread.

Jamie looking at 800 individuaal fish is going to be a chore and test of patience for both you and the delivery guy........not to mention additional stress on the fish.

My suggestion is to have clear container with water that the fish can be put in as the driver counts them out. Groups of 25 or 50 fish can be viewed. Then look for any fish that looks "different" and pull it out with a small aquarium net.

The quicker and least stressful the process for you, the fish, and the driver the better. Think about the process ahead of time will make things go better.

Got all 900 RES and the 50 SMB put into the pond. All the fish looked really healthy and had plenty of vigor. We looked at each individual fish to positively ID before putting them into the water. The driver from Jones was awesome and showed a lot of patience as we dug through and looked at each fish.

I was pretty pleased with the SMB that were delivered as they were all pretty consistent in size and looked really good. I've got a few pics to share of the Smallies. They were 5"+ with a few nearing 6"". We only measured one and he was 5 1/4" and appeared to be about the average size.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/cefa240c3f3032bc9f6f99d9e86aa38c.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/47548bc1d46d3e5ee8d45e0c053aaae5.jpg
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/5a64b263e0620166128fb2ced8e7d3f7.jpg

Awesome!

I would not be surprised if your SMB are 10" next May.

Those smallies will do well especially if they resume eating pellets. They should be 10"-12" by this time 2015. Can't wait to seem some of them. Nice YP and RES also.

RBS in my experience are not fall spawning. They spawn around the same time RES do. They are not overly fecund. Less than BG and PS, just a hair more than RES, but really prefer sand or rock to spawn on. If only mud/clay is present, they seem to not spawn as well.

I know very little about RBS except what I've learned from you, Travis. Pond Boss Lepomis poster [remember that?] indicated that they commonly spawn in the Fall - that's where I picked up that tidbit. Again though, no experience. I would think a fall spawning sunfish would have lower percentage of recruitment due to lack of vegetation during winter and would be small, vulnerable, easy prey?

CJ, are RBS aggresive compared to BG? They sound like they'd be a cool addition to the pond and would provide another fish to catch and work well for additional forage.

Only thing is when we dug the pond I promised my wife I'd stay away from nibbling fish and she is holding me to this promise. Also its tough for me not to have BG in the pond as I really like to catch and eat them as I grew up doing so. BG are a great fish for kids as well and I'm afraid the pond may come up a little short without a BG similiar fish.

Once you have 10"-14" yellow perch you will be content with not having bluegill. Then if you absolutely have to have some BG then you can stock several only male BG which will get really big and not bite swimmers. There has been discussion o the forum about using only male BG in ponds and there are three articles in back issues of PBoss magazine about using only male BG.
BEHEMOTH BLUEGILLS IN SMALL PONDS. In Part I, Cody, Condello and Baird provide the necessary details of how to accurately sex bluegills as the first step to produce trophies in small waters. Mar-Apr 2006.
GROWING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS; Part II. Cody, Condello and Baird present info about size, growth, stocking densities, and choosing proper male bluegills. May-Jun 2006.
THE ART OF MANAGING BEHEMOTH MALE BLUEGILLS. Cody, Condello and Baird conclude their three part article about raising trophy male bluegills. Discussed are best size of ponds, natural foods, supplemental feeding, angling implications, females only, and creative ways to use male bluegills. A standard weight table for bluegill is included. Jul-Aug 2006.

I need to review those articles - came out before I was around.

How does stocking male only BG work with the RES? Wont they interbreed and create hybrids?

Yes - expect male BG to create hybrids when the male BG are stocked with mixed sex RES or probably other sunfish species. Those male BG will probably get pretty "frisky" and produce hybrids. Depending on the cross the offspring could have varying degrees of survival. Note that the hybrids may not produce viable offspring. In your case the BGXRES hybrids should not be a big concern for biting swimmers due to their lack of aggression and limited numbers. Biting sunfish primarily BG and GSF are normally only a problem when they are abundant and food (natural or pellets) is a limiting factor. So as long as you keep the panfish population in 'control' and well fed your swimmers should be very safe. Plus you have numerous local PB members that would be very happy to come to your pond and thin out your numbers of panfish .

Bill, so there could be atleast some degree of risk in having hybrids reproducing more like a typical BG down the line several years? Maybe this is still some what of an unknown?

Also I was wondering about my perch numbers with the 420 stocked from Cecil...Is this enough stocked in the pond at this time or should I be getting some more in the pond yet this fall? I'd really like to be catching some nice perch next summer if possible, but not at the expense of putting an over amount of pressure the forage base.

I thought about adding some larger ones yet this fall, but Im not sure if my goal should be to have a large perch spawn this spring or not with only 50 smallies in the pond?

Over time, I believe you're right. Just makes sense that a high fecundity species like bluegill would eventually out-compete all other panfish, though with proper management, it could be a long time before it was ever an issue.

Ewest or others may be able to also advise. Supposedly when some of the hybrid crosses breed among themselves their eggs do not hatch or very rarely have very limited hatching. However offspring from the regular HBG (BGXGSF) are common. However I do not have any experience with hybrids reproducing with in your case the pure male BG. I'm not aware of any published or practical research on this topic. I have a local pond where mixed RES and male BG crossed to produced hybrids. I have not gone back yet to check the composition or balance of the fishery. Interestingly for your information, the pond also has SMB, YP and GSH in it. The owners used to swim in the pond but I have not inquired about them swimming since the hybrids were produced. It all would be good information for a PBoss mag article.

I think maybe Ill take your advice and see how the perch are suiting us in the next couple of years before trying the Male only BG.

Am I at risk of over doing it with the perch if I stock more yet this fall? We have the 420 4-5" from Cecil we stocked about a month ago. I thought about making a trip up to shelby fish farm to get some larger perch for fish to catch and enjoy next year. Im just not sure if I do this if my YP spawn would be too much for the limited amount of predators in the pond. Also they may put a little too much added pressure on the forage base?

You could stock more, but I don't believe it's necessary. I suspect a strong percentage of the YP will spawn in the Spring, you'll have plenty of YOY YP growing - you could just allow nature to take it's course.

I wouldn't worry about pressure on your forage base regardless of what you decide to do - a 4-5" YP isn't capable of eating a GSH 3"+ or your LCS or big male FHM. Are you pellet feeding yet? That will go a long way to help reduce forage base pressure down the road.

I have bred Male BG and Female RES [BRES] in a reproduction and grow out pond for several seasons with various degrees of success/failure. I do suspect stocking male BG into the fishery would lead to some hybridization with RES population. I have some of that occurring naturally in my main pond, and the F1 generation is a pretty fish, although I have yet to sample one that I would consider robust/healthy/thriving. Bear in mind the recruitment % of BRES hybrid is low, and of those survivors 97% are males - so that doesn't suggest an impending management issue if those F1 fish can even back cross.

I still think RBS would be a neat panfish to consider - Travis knows where to source them. If they truly spawn in fall [per Bob Lusk] I think recruitment in the presence of cool water species would be very low headed into Winter when SMB, YP and WE are still somewhat actively feeding unlike their warm water cousins. I think pods of 0.5-1" RBS would be vulnerable due to lack of vegetation cover to escape predation. It could be the perfect companion species for that very reason of Fall spawning and lower fecundity rendering management concerns mute.

I agree with TJ on the BG x RES hybrids....my understanding is that the F1's will be predominantly male, with many studies indicating a 97% male bias. And that includes reciprocal crosses also. (FBG X MRES)


Plus, these fish get large, they fight like demons, and mine will take pelleted feed. Very similar to HBG now that you mention it.

I wish my BRES were thriving like yours...happy for you, but admittedly envious.

As to pecking fish, I don't see that as a problem with Male BG only and RES. I've never noticed any fish larger than about 3"-4" pecking, and only pure strain (not Hybrid) BG. Tony has first hand experience with HBG in a swimming pond, but I don't know how many smaller fish are in there.

In my experience, RBS are half way between BG and GSF in aggressiveness and mouth size. RBS do have larger mouths and seem to be more willing to strike at crankbaits and other minnow imitating baits, indicating to me they are more piscavorous. Not even in the same boat as GSF though. In a typical pond environment they seem to get out competed by BG and just become a "background" fish. There lower reproduction rate shows when in competition with BG and under predation from LMB. Never had any issues with RBS pecking at me while swimming.

The "pecking" of fish is usually not while one is actually swimming but when one is casually or sleepily lounging on a floatie. Then the nips feel like shark bites to the girly types.

I've only experienced pecking by BG when there are a lot of small ones or stunted populations. They actually go after the hair on your legs or in my dad's case decided one of his nipples was a pellet. LOL

I have no issues at all with pecking in my male only bluegill pond.

IMO little BG tugging on your leg hair kinda tickles.

We had a few instances of nipping on the initial stocking of 500 fish. It was short-lived, which I attribute to the fish "outgrowing" the nipping stage, and acclimating to the feeding program. No issues since then, and that was in 2009.

No one here shies away from swimming with the HBG. Biting is a non event these days. You have to remember however, that we're talking about a pond....not a swimming pool.

I submit that fish will be the least of your worries where biting is concerned. The deerflies and horseflies can be another matter entirely.

In Asia people pay a lot of money to put their feet/body in tubs of water and have fish nip at their skin. In a pond here it is free!

Pecking fish?? I have a story from my college days and my ex-wife that will convince you to never get romantic with bluegill around! Let's just say she learned how to fly, and I learned how to scream like a little girl!!

Is that a bonefish or are you just happy to see me? Let it slide, mods...it's Halloween after all.

heckuva trick or treat. Reminds me of a session on a moonlit night with bull nettle a lot of years ago.

TMI!

That's hilarious Rex!

Rex, seems like ya should have exercised a bit more control over yer little Red Wiggler !!!!

Got an update with some pics on my ponds progress. We went fishing with some small jigs to see how the fish were looking and caught 3 SMB, and several perch. I'll have some pics of them below, so please tell me what you think of them. Also forage numbers still seem to be very strong and GSH are 7"+ now and are spawning. I've seen several different sizes of GSH present when feeding and near spawning locations.

YP are hitting the feed heavily, but no sign of SMB on the pellets. In spite of this it seems the SMB are growing every bit as fast as the YP. The SMB in the pic looks to be at least 8" as that's the length of my hand. They were stocked in late Oct. and we're 5-5.5". I was really surprised at how heavy this fish felt on my rod, actually stripping line off the reel! As you can see in the pic he is quite plump and healthy looking.

The largest perch are in the 7-8" range already. I'm very pleased with the progress at this point.

Also I have decided to take some of the advise from guys on the forum and stock some HSB. We stocked 16, 5-7" yesterday. Hope to get them on pellets as well. The one pic below is of GSH spawning along my south bank in the only patch of algae that exists on the entire pond.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/2b198ad2fb8aab8c8e89b731a6014d15.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/14d390a99ad2e203f114ef523695fd16.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/1b5de5b2ba67bb2f3b98e46db0412f6d.jpg

SMB are very well fed and fat. Growth should be very good this summer.

The YP and SMB look great - the WR on that SMB has to be 120 plus. Think about buying a digital tray scale, one used to weigh food from any box store around $15, and get some weight and length measurements so we run WRs on your fish. That SMB might even be over 120...incredible body condition. See what happens when you listen to Cody?

Wow, those pics look great. I see you stocked the SMB last fall, how about the YP? When were they stocked?
Hitting on jigs too, that's good news to me. What time of day were you fishing?
(I'm hoping for similar results..)

I agree TJ I do need to get a scale and get some accurate measurements to see where the fish stand, but my eyes tell me they look pretty darn good! Hard to believe they can grow so quickly. It is nice to get the great info from Cody and many others on the forum that have the experience behind them.

I'd like to get a minnow trap out and see what kind of fry are present. Im Guessing its a bit too early for that though?

The perch were stocked about a month before the SMB last fall. Think it was mid to late September.
We caught the fish around 5 pm as a storm front was moving through.

Just listen to the advice given on this site and you won't go wrong!

Made a trip to Remlinger fish farm yesterday to get some fish food (thanks Bill for recommendation). They had perch still available so we brought home an additional 350 4-7" fish to add to the ones from Cecil. That makes a total of 750 YP stocked in the pond. I hope they will follow the other perch to the feed very soon.

I thought the addition of perch to the pond would speed up us being able to harvest a few this fall and add to the genetic diversity as well.

Jamie, looks like my pm to ya was poorly timed.

Day late... Thats okay. I'll need more in the future..

YP I got from Remlingers aren't fairing so well. I've been finding dead fish all around the banks of the pond. I wasn't too impressed with the way the fish were bagged as several of the bags had lost most, if not all the oxygen in the bags by the time I got back. They assured me they'd be fine to make the 1+ trip, but that hasn't been the case. Some of the fish did seem a bit stressed as they had some wounds on them.

I've never had this problem dealing with Jones fish. Jones is expensive , but it appears they know what they're doing with the fish.

I'm going to call them and see what they say, but at this point looks like a huge waste. Hopefully at least some of the fish will survive.

Dang Jamie, that's a shame. Did you know Jones is having a truck at their location in Industrial Park in Ft Wayne tomorrow. Supposed to have ordered in advance but might be worth a call tomorrow AM and see if maybe they bring extra fish in case someone shows up without ordering.

When buying fish it is important to look at the fish before buying them. Look for any fungus and/or marks on the fish. Ask to see them feed on pellets in their tank. Stressed fish do not eat pellets very well. Fish farms remove all dead fish from tanks before customers show up. Fish sold late in the spring when water temps are above 75F could possibly be under holding stress. Buyer always beware.
Remlingers do have a replacement policy, but don't get replacement fish now. Get a credit voucher and use it this fall or next spring when water is less than 72F.

Jones were out of perch for the season. I was thinking of going to Shelby fish farm for the fish, but last minute got them from Remlingers.

I had a feeling I should pass on the fish and wish I would have now. Lesson learned...

Bill what's your guess on the remainder fish? I've found 40 or so of 300 dead and am finding a few more every time I walk the bank. Think a decent share of those will recover and eventually be healthy? I'm not really sure how many dead ones would have sank out of sight, any guesses?

If you don't have bass able to eat the weakened and dying newly stocked YP, you should eventually see at the surface most of the ones that die. If the surviving fish are able to get lots of food and do eat, many of them will survive. Buying and hauling fish is science and art. Every body kills fish when the deal with them for various reasons; that is how we learn the most - the hard way.

I talked to Mark at Remlingers and he offered to replace the whole order of YP and even deliver the fish for free this fall. That's great customer service! I really should have called him before posting about the fish loss. I was more concerned about how many fish may have survived vs. died and didn't really know what to say as far as numbers I'd lost, so I was holding off.

At any rate they are standing behind they're product 100% at this point and for that I'd strongly recommend them to anyone. Seems like it's getting hard to find businesses that do that these days.

That is the kind of business you want to advertise to others.

JamieE,

I wonder if they sell in Illinois? That's the kind of people I want to do business with. Do you have any contact info you could PM me?

PM sent Bill D.

Son and I did a little more fishing today. We caught probably 20+ perch and 3 SMB. Several perch were in the 8" range and the biggest Smallie was slightly under 9" already and fat! Caught him on light tackle and boy did he fight! Awesome fish to catch! Can't wait til they are 14" or so... Pics of fish below.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/68caacdc79f239513eef1a9a9c6599da.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/57e83358556736f1666061888728556b.jpg

I have quite a mat of submerged water plants all around my "newish" pond. I am guessing its due to nitrogen that came in from the neighbors field from all the rain. I am hoping that it will help any smaller fish hide and speed the population of the pond with forage so that I can add the SMB sooner. I will not add GC unless the weeds hang around at this density for a few more years. My water lilies and emergent plants have not yet populated like I expect they will, so the nutrient balance should change over time. I also have plans to install a water control box and raise the water level 1 foot over a 3 year period once the edges of the pond are fully populated with emergent plants, so that will change things too. I love watching wildlife habitat develop!

Jamie, I don't think ya did wrong in postin the first report about the fish dying, that just set the stage for your latest report. Bill is correct, every body loses fish now and then and it's good to here other folks experiences.
You'll probably get a pm from me soon, waiting for an update on some info.

Rah, your sure showing a lot of patients on your pond!

My pond is staying fairly free from weeds so far. There's a couple small spots of cat tails and algae and that's about it. I'm thinking pretty serious about starting some lillies and maybe a few other water plants. I may be climbing a steep hill doing it because Im beginning to see a pretty strong crayfish population.

I'm like you I get a lot of enjoyment seeing the wildlife benefit from my efforts.

Pics look good. My YP must be getting a little larger. I haven't actually seen one. They hit the feed when the feeder goes off, but it's so quick I can't really tell fish size. The splash seems bigger. SMB this fall, if I can find some. Rainman says he will have to go to MN to get them..

My son caught a perch off the pier while I was feeding the fish last night. We noticed something hanging out of its butt and my first thought was a parisite. As the fish flopped around on the deck it popped out and upon further inspection I couldn't believe my eyes. It turned out to be the pincers of baby crayfish.

Pretty cool to see and also reinforce the that we indeed had a decent hatch of crayfish this spring and the fish are utilizing them for forage. The wildlife in the pond and the food web that's developing is really cool to witness.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/e88880e540e1e16107c4c11e16ae8abc.jpg

I'm a little concerned... I've been losing a hand full of fish for the last couple of weeks. About every other day I find a dead fish or 2 laying at the beach. Until today they have all been perch, but today I found of my Smallies floating.

I'm wondering if the problem could be low DO? I have yet to install my aeration system and have very little plant life in the pond. Also the water clarity has been much more cloudy the last few weeks. Clarity seems to be improving over the last few days, but I'm really worried as the fish have been doing really great until recent weeks. Some of the SMB are 11" already, which is double their original size in only 10 months.

Any guesses as to what's going on? Should I stop feeding pellets?

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/221e4966eaa4b79b4dc1f7f4228550ce.jpg

Jamie, as you know I'm not real knowledgeable but I'm a big fan of aeration. Is it possible that the "cloudy water" is a bloom? Why don't you contact Bill Cody and see if ya could take/send him a water sample and have him analyze it.

I've been following this post all along and am very impressed with your success, congrats.

Questions on adding a small number of SMB this fall vs. later. I have a pond with FHM, RES, GSH, and YP. I added 25 7-9" YP last fall with no apparent spawn this spring (no fertilized egg masses), and I added 100 2" YP this spring. I also added 12, 3" LCS this spring. I was considering adding 5 or 10 SMB this fall. Is this a good idea or should I wait for a YP spawn and for the LCS to grow? If I do add SMB this fall, what size is best? If its best to wait, I am I+OK with that, but I though starting with a small number of small SMB now might be more economical.

Just moving back to first page in hopes of getting opinions -

Questions on adding a small number of SMB this fall vs. later. I have a 1-acre pond with FHM, RES, GSH, and YP. I added 25 7-9" YP last fall with no apparent spawn this spring (no fertilized egg masses), and I added 100 2" YP this spring. I also added 12, 3" LCS this spring. I was considering adding 5 or 10 SMB this fall. Is this a good idea or should I wait for a YP spawn and for the LCS to grow? If I do add SMB this fall, what size is best? If its best to wait, then I am OK with that, but I though starting with a small number of small SMB now might be more economical.

RAH, do you know what the male/female ratio was for the 25 7-9" YP was? I'm surprised they didn't pull a spawn. I stocked nearly the same number (30, 12 female/18 male) and their offspring are all over the place.

What has been the general consensus on the LCS's survival chances? Such a small number and some larger YP could potentially take some(1/3rd size of predator). I'm not sure you'll ever know for sure if the LCS successfully survive. I know some who have them have had trouble seeing/sampling them except when spawning.

Regarding SMB stocking, the YP population should be just fine, with those 100 recently stocked fish and the others likely spawning this coming spring. If you want to give your LCS the best chance of surviving, probably could hold off, though. Wouldn't stock tiny SMB with those few bigger YP in there. I know they're only a few, but SMB aren't cheap, no matter what size you purchase them at.

I am guessing the large YP were all females based on the lack of fertilized eggs, but I do not know. Thanks for the SMB advice. I would be worried about the LCS with added predators. Maybe I will add next fall. If I added now, I think that I should add at least 3-4" fish to avoid the mature YP eating them.

RAH, have you tried to find a supplier that has SMB this Fall? You might have no choice but to wait until next Fall.........

I would check with Clear Creek if folks saw an advantage to stocking now. My thought was that 5 to 10 3-4" SMB might get the population going at the right time to benefit from the forage peaking.

Based on the lack of encouragement for stocking a few SMB now, I will likely hold off till next fall, or the following spring.

Hey RAH,

IMHO I would go ahead and stock some small SMB this fall if you can. I think I saw Keystone will have them in a month or two but would be a 3 hour or so drive for you. My reasoning is you should have enough small minnows to keep the small SMB happy.

Are you adding some 4 to 6 inch YP to get the male population up?

Keystone won't sell fish for stocking into an Indiana pond. If you have an Indiana phone number you will be lucky if they pick up the phone.

I added 100 2" YP this past spring. I'll see if Clear Creek has any SMB this fall. I think that I'll just add 6 or 7.

Rah any news from clear creek on smallies for this fall?

I sent an email, but have had no reply yet.

Got few updates on the progress of the pond. Remlingers delivered 6-8" perch to replace the 4-6" fish I had bought and hauled home earlier in the year. The fish looked great and they were delivered at no charge. That shows they really stand behind their fish and I'd recommend them to everyone.

I also made a trip to clear creek to pickup 100SMB to add to the 50 original fish stocked a year ago. I got lucky and got some really nice fish from them. All the fish were this years fish and they hand picked the largest for me. Of course I paid a premium price, but I felt like I paid a fair price for the fish I received. All the fish were 6" plus and a couple of them were real toads. They were extra thick and looked to be 8" fish. I'll post a pic of them, but it's not very good as I was by myself and wanted to get them in the water ASAP after hauling them 2 hrs home. The fish made the trip in excellent shape in sealed bags.

I'm going to also post a few pics of the SMB from last fall and HSB stocked in the spring. These pics are about 6 weeks old and the fish were 10-12". Over all I'm extremely happy with progress of the pond and the growth of the fish. Also I'll post a pic of a really nice SMB we lost around August 17. He was already 11"!

We planted a semi load of trees around the pond in early spring to help it look more natural so I'll post a couple pics of that as well. Thanks for reading!

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/137d06a14b0192343934e9299411d82d.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/3c6c7206a6f16cc100deb02bcf874f90.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/45cfd2a79eed681940040b241f0ac5b9.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/221e4966eaa4b79b4dc1f7f4228550ce.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/b6e372b8aca071e7a0bf6723c6250508.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/f0ca6e2410e1c2e74460995599027701.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/392c081626e553b8bbac3d28303051da.jpg

Man Jamie, you certainly made some great progress in just ove 20 months. I figured you would do fine from the knowledge you showed in your earlier posts. Research is key and good ?s help reduce mistakes. I hope anyone wanting a similar scenario will find this thread and follow your example.
Congratulations and keep up the fine job. I have to laugh that you wanted to come check out my pond in the beginning as now I'de like to come check out yours. Cecil was very impressed when he delivered the YP. Bet your son is having a ball and learning tons.

I'd like to post an update for the guys who were so gracious to give me so much advice and help me build my dream pond. Allso for those who have followed along and stocked their ponds in similar fashion. It really is taking shape and I don't think I couldn't expect it to be doing any better than it is at this point.

As of today the pond clarity is around 36" and has been steadily clearing as the summer goes along. I feel like this is just about perfect, but not sure if Im correct on that assumption...

The SMB are right at a pound and measure in the 12-13" range, HSB are 1 1/2# and are 14", perch are fat and feeding well and the larger ones are 11" 3/4#. The GSH are numerous in all lengths and up to 8" in size. The schools are quite impressive and Im really happy that I decided to stock them. Many of the bass we've caught look to be feeding well on them and are often regurgitating them as we fight them to shore. As of now the fathead minnows are still very much present and some of the schools are massive especially near the beach area as they seem to prefer the cover of the small pontoon boat that we tie there.

The perch and HSB are on the feed well and seem to be benefitting from it. It took about a year for the HSB to finally figure out where the feed was but now they are there feeding aggressively on a nightly basis. We really enjoy the HSB even though there are only 16 stocked at this point... Would it be a mistake to stock another 16 next spring?

I've been able to confirm that the SMB and the Perch have both had their first successful spawn which is exciting for me to see! The 0 year old SMB range in size from 2-4"and the perch look to be 2" or so. These lengths are only estimates as Im going off of sightings only. The visibility of the water has really improved and made it possible to easily identify the fish species. Also I realize this is when the management really begins...

Wish I had an update on the RES as we haven't seen a single fish dead or alive since we stocked 900 of them nearly 2 years ago... Im really baffled on this one! Should I be seeing young ones near bank as I walk around if they have successfully reproduced? Is there any chance they have all died and we didn't see a single dead fish?

The only real negative I have to report is the presence of GSF. Not sure how they got in the pond, but they are most definitely there. We are aggressively removing them and I am staying positive about it. We are actually making a game out of removing them from the pond at night with a net are really getting the hang of it. The numbers seem to be staying very low as we haven't notice them feeding on pellets at all and haven't caught them fishing yet unless we are targeting them. We spend a lot of time at the pond observing and just relaxing. We have been doing some fishing, but try not to over do it and have done well at not over pressuring the fish thus far..

When will it be time to begin removing SMB or YP? I feel like now that I've confirmed reproduction its probably not too far off!

Thanks for making this pond what it is shaping up to be! All the credit goes to the many pond meisters on this forum who have been so forth coming with advice!

Nice when a plan comes together Jamie!

If you will put some minnow traps in about a foot of water and bait it with some fish or dog food you might be able to get some of the GSF out that way. GSF seem to have a real attraction to fish food in a trap.

With lots of FHM and shiners you likely will get lots of them in the trap too, but you can return them to the water and it will give you a good chance to look at some of your YOY fish. I regularly keep a half dozen traps around the bank of various ponds of mine and will throw them in periodically just to see what goes in. Also use them to transfer fish from one pond to another when I am trying to expand a certain population.

Good luck on seeing RES. I have only seen a few from the bank. Check out Shorty's thread on catching them, but the problem I find is that some other fish wants to bite my hook before the RES gets to it. But I do catch a few RES and am thrilled when I do.

It is still early in your fishery. Be patient. Adding more HSB at this point will likely put a big decrease in your minnow forage base. Add HSB only as you harvest them or have mortality. I would wait until the panfish populations become noticably abundant before adding any more HSB. Reproduction from the SMB when they grow to 8" will heavily impact the minnow forage esp the FHM unles you regularly remove predators. Juvenile YP will also prey heavily on the FHM. It is always much better to have ample minnows as forage instead of having to play "catch up" and regularly be adding forage fish. Always seeing and trapping good numbers of minnows indicates a proper balance of predator - prey numbers.

Snrub, your right I do need to get several minnow traps going. I have set one from time to time and catch mostly FHM,shiners and crayfish. Only caught a few GSF, but I think I need to get the trap out a little bit deeper. I baited one with an 8" shiner Id found dead just for the heck of it and when I pulled it up the next day he was completely stripped to bones by crayfish! I couldn't figure out how they did it right through the cage, but when I pulled up the trap there were several clamped to it. No problems with my crayfish numbers as they seem to be really thriving.

On the RES I think other fish biting so quickly is a big part of it, but I can't believe we haven't caught or seen at least one. I guess time will tell.

Bill I don't mind waiting on HSB. I thought my initial stocking was a little low at 16 in 3 1/2 ac. My total stocking for SMB was 50 initially in fall of 2014 and 100 in 2015. Id rather be conservative going forward and keep plenty of food in the pond so I'll take your advice and wait until I see the need for more predators.

How soon should I be looking to harvest SMB in order to keep my numbers under control? I was thinking of taking some of the 2015 batch or some of the newly spawned 2016 out this fall? I really want to stay ahead of them if I can...

Your stocker SMB are at 42/ac. Based on the numbers of YOY bass that should be 3-5" by October, I think you should try to maintain close to the 50 SMB number per acre. Or if you begin to see fewer FHM and forage catches in your traps it is time to remove some more predators. Let the numbers of forage fish present be your guide. It is easy to get too many bass since it happens frequently in ponds.

I am a few years ahead of you with SMB, RES, YP, and GSH, my biggest worry are the GSH getting out of control and limiting reproduction on everything else. In the last two years I have seen very limited SMB and YP recruitment. I did have have a very big GSH and RES sunfish hatch last year but YOY SMB and YP have been sparse.

Like you I did not see my RES for the first few years, they were there, it just took a while to figure out how to catch them.

Any updates on this? I will be doing something similar.
Thanks!
Heppy

So after 7+ years of stocking my pond Id like to start giving some updates. Ive meant to do this long ago, but better late then never I guess. The largest SMB to date was caught this spring and was 21" long. Unfortunately I wasn't prepared to weigh him, but he was really fat and healthy! I guess him in the 4-4.5 pound range. SMB in the 16"-19" range are very common. I haven't fished for YP for at least a year, but they were between 13-14" back then so possibly have broken the 14" mark by now.

The forage base appears to be staying very strong as I see many large clouds of golden shiners around the edges of the pond, which Im very happy about. Ive continued to feed, but not as dedicated as Ive planned to. When we are feeding its pretty much every evening, but when we run out I can't always get away to drive the hour plus trip to get feed. So It goes a little while with out feeding. YP are still hitting it really well as expected, but what I didn't really expect was the large number of SMB that agressively hit the feed also. Its really something to see these huge fish explosively hitting the pellets just like a top water bait!

Over the last few years we've eaten some perch, but haven't removed them very aggressively. Ive noticed a good mix of sizes while feeding so I feel good about them reproducing in the pond thus far, but wouldn't say abundantly.

The smallmouth are also reproducing as we continue to catch young of the year fish every summer. We have removed almost all smb that are under 12" to this point and plan to continue to do so.

Over all I couldn't be happier with the pond. Its turned out to be everything I hoped it would to this point. But I keep pushing the goals up and up. Time will tell if Ill ever catch a 6# smallie out of this place or not, but it sure seems like 5# is becoming realistic.

Keeping the larger sized SMB growing well will be the biggest challenge going forward... Ive got a small forage pond that Ive been growing golden shiners in for the last several years. So its full of larger brood stock that are ready to be mover over as soon as I take the time to learn how to use a cast net.

Ive been feeding Zeigler silver pellets for years. Ive been told that they are perfect for the perch, but maybe a little low on protein for the bass. So I've been mixing in some Plantimum, but Im a little concerned about it being a little tough on the perch so I'm still feeding 75% silver. Any recommendations for that scenario? Id like to keep the bass growing well.

Just want to say thanks again to everyone on this site that shared so much great information! Without that help Im sure my pond wouldn't be where it is today.

Optimal Bass... 44% P, 8% lipid I believe, best case for both-I think this formula is really hard to top for both species.
And, it's delivered right to your door when you need it.

Thanks Snipe. Ill have to check it out.

Yes -- because since you have to drive an hour to get the Zeigler and for not feeding the fish until you get more feed consider economically using Optimal for your fish. Driving 50 miles is expensive when gas is above $4. I feed Optimal bass pellets (3/8") to the adult perch and bass. Smaller fish would eat and grow to adults using the Optimal bluegill feed.

This site is great. So after 7 years what was the verdict on the RES? Maybe they just do better here in Tennessee. I have 2 ponds that I fish regularly. One pond is nearly 50/50 with native BG. They are swimming around and you see them with the regular BG, They hit artifical lures/jigs ( love a roadrunner). Another pond I fish, you can catch them really good in april and may when the are bedding. The rest of the time you might catch 5 shellcracker to every 50 BG.

The pond I just stocked here, has 400 RES and 300 CNBG. I see them everyday when I feed. Some eat pellets but most of my redear move in after the CNBG have feed and the FHM move in. My Redear pound on them till dark. The CNBG do not seem as interested in the minnows but devour the pellets.

One thing that I did different was I stocked the FHM and RES first. Then CNBG 6 weeks later, so maybe that helped them feed on pellets since they were the only fish in there, I do not know. But once you put CBNG in get your wallet out they feed like piranha's

Great report, Jamie, and congratulations!

SMB will hit feed very readily in my experience, and they absolutely go after Aquamax Largemouth or Optimal Hand Throw like crazy. Both of these feeds are about 1" in diameter.

For the 12" or less smallies that your are culling, what are you doing with those fish?