Hello all. I have a .18 acre pond approximately 8 ft deep at center. 6ft average. Debating wether to stock a bg hsb combination or if pond is too small to accomplish this with success. I have been lurking on this site for around a year and debating the best combo for the new to me pond. Just nervous to pull the trigger due to fear of overpopulation of bg which seems to be a problem.

Also if stocking for spring would it be best to stock fhm bg this spring and stock hsb in winter or stock all together at once. Any benefits or drawbacks either way? Any advice is appreciated.

You can try it but hybrid bluegills/HSB with a feeder might be a better choice. I've done that several times for neighbors and there have been no control issues. Toss in a dozen RES for snail issues.

The HBG will spawn some but I've never seen an issue. Their progeny is green sunfish which some people don't like but I'm not one of them. The GSF will out fight a BG/CNBG/RES any day. And, I've never personally seen them take over a Texas pond.

How many of each is dependent on the amount of water you really have in July and August.

Water level is not a big issue as we have a well and I can keep brim full during the summer if need be. How many of each would you stock? I figure the hsb will keep any hbg spawn in check but unsure of how many to stock initially and wether to stock all at once or establish a fhm hbg base before adding stripers

I think I would try 100 HBG and about 10 HSB. But, I haven't done one that was less than 1/3 acre so am not real sure.

That's the # that I would start with if it were mine.

Thanks for the advice dave

I'm in the same boat with a very small (new) pond about .2 ac.
I'm not sure its even worth the cost of trying to manage it - i'm figureing $200-$300 bucks for FHM and BG and LMB.

I'm really tepted to just drop a few minnow traps in my neighbors pond and pick out the species i dont want. I'm thinking some local creek will be good for striped dace, plus mixed breed farm pond bluegill and maybe two 8" LMB - throw it all in and see what happens.


cost - free!! and i bet i'll learn something. then the next poperty i buy will have a real pond big enough to actually manage and stock and i'll apply what i've learned.

2isgreen I have been very tempted to do this as well. Living less than a mile from two bayous i have thought about and almost done this numerous times. Also 10 minutes from the gulf of Mexico I have been intrigued by bobby rice and his experiments with saltwater fish in freshwater pond. All of this is why I delayed stocking last march when we bought the property.

Unfortunately I believe I am much too dumb to pull this off effectively without adding some unwanted species. I figure most experts will say the same about adding unwanted species unknowingly being the biggest drawback to this approach. However it is basically free and with small pond like you and I have if you later decide it does not work for you can always roetone the pond for about what it would cost to stock from hatchery.

Maybe a hybrid approach would actually work best - buy the FHM, and locally source some BG and LMB.

Bucket stocking is a big temptation. But, you really can't be sure that you won't introduce something like a parasite into your pond. I think you will find that stocking is the cheapest part of the trip.

This has been my concern and why I have avoided bucket stocking so far. Still the temptation is great but figure do it once and do it right then I know if something goes wrong it is my own fault. I am planning to stock last week in February.

I'm not sure you'll be happy with LMB in a pond this small. You could do single-sex LMB, though, if you really want them.

Agree Bocomo. I'd pass on anything that spawns.

WRFinTX, I would love to have a HSB/CNBG .18 pond w/o LMB!
I only post information gained from personal experience.
Our 1/4 acre pond was stocked in Spring 2005 with FHM, RES, and FHM.
Spring of 2006 stocked 100 fingerling HSB - only occasional hand feeding - HSB "forage" trained.

Added one (1) female LMB ~3 yrs later - (1)BC some 5 years.

WE "ladder- stock HSB each fall - last fall 8, 1-2 lb HS.,
Currently transfer "cull" CNBG from main pond to little pond.
Produced numerous 5lb+ HSB over the years - fun little pond.

Below photo - Son Jeff's HSB caught last week end.
Good luck,
George

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Thanks for the advice George. I have read and re-read many of your posts trying to make an ultimate decision. Your pond looks a blast and would like to acheive a fraction of your success one day.

In your opinion how many of each would you stock of fhm hsb and cnbg? Also should I throw them all in at once late February or stock fhm and cnbg in Feb and bass in fall? Any benefits one way or other. Also debating aeration for this pond. It is my understanding your little pond is not aerated any benefit to not having aeration that you have seen? Or any drawbacks to adding aeration. I have power close and can build a cover for the pump to be housed in.

I consult with and rely on Todd Overton’s fish stocking numbers - he has more experience with HSB and CNBG than anyone in this part of the country.

I would stock forage fish in the spring and 8-10 inch HSB in the fall - - how many (?) ask Todd - you know that I push the envelope - right?
I’ll be catching 10 inch HSB by fall and one pounders soon after - a blast on the fly!

With power close to pond, I would install Kasco surface aeration to cope with Texas drought and hot weather. IMO, bottom diffusfer aeration would not be a consideration.

Have fun,
George

Thanks george. I appreciate your advice and am glad that you came back to the forum so that I may pick your brain. I thought for a minute I had missed my opportunity. I am planning on contacting Todd this week and setting up pickup for late February. ..can't wait to get this baby up and running.

Randy

One more question. Can someone explain the differences in surface vs. diffuser aeration? I think I am correct in thinking bottom diffuser aeration mixes the water column more effectively ...not necessarily a good thing in hot texas weather. And surface provides water movement providing more oxygen but allows for a thermocline to remain? I am probably seriously off base.

You pretty much hit it on the head, unless you combine a surface agitator with a tube that allows water from deeper in the water column to be brought to the surface.

As to whether it's more O2, that all depends on how it's measured.

I'll bet George will have a slightly different take on it, and I'd say his take on it is correct too.

I believe the key to your decision as to selection of bottom diffuser or surface aeration is depth and dimensions of your of your water body, and I failed to ask that question.
I believe esshup and I both agree there is a need at times for operation of one or both systems, which we have in our 2 acre pond, and no aeration in 1/4 acre pond with no fish kill ever. The challenge is managing the biomass.
My primary goal is coping with ever-changing water volume due to drought conditions and my pushing the limits on biomass to prevent another major fish kill.

What is your pond depth – I believe that will give you the answer.

George

Sorry,missed water depth.
With 8ft depth and 6 ft avgerage with electricity on site,perfect for surface aeration. A properly sized Kasco unit will pull water from those depths and create a wake greater than a bottom diffuser system.
Disclaimer: I don't sell stuff -only share experience.

In 6ft of water in our 2 acre pond, we have a clean hard clay bottom that is posible only by drawing water from the bottom.
Surface aeration creates O2 - bottom difusers circulate water. Sratification, IMO will not be a problem ina "shallow" .18 acre pond.
Good luck,
George

In a clients pond, which is 7/8 ac, 7' max depth (lotta muck) he has both. He runs both systems from early spring to late fall, strictly the bottom system in the winter. Golden Rainbow trout were still alive in the pond in 78°F water. The whole water column in the pond was at saturation levels (78°F the O2 reading was 8.2 mg/l)

Yes, I recall - as you know I operate a similar system on a 2 acre pond. I do not belive our dual system would be a valid comparison to a virgin pond with no muck build up with an average depth of 6ft.
Thsnk goodness I don't have to do client stuff - I would starve to death..

Hi Randy, I forgot another thing - is your HSB goal for fun or food or combination?
Makes a difference in stocking density.
I have said at times that I would love to have a HSB pond only - no excess forage problems - feed them and catch them on a fly rod - kinda like fishing one of Todd's ponds!

Also forgot to mention - NO structure or cover to maximize HSB predation of CNBG.
We have one GC and single sex tilapia in our little pond that handles aquatic vegetation and FA very well.
I would love to start all over but too quick too old – I love small ponds!
George

Ps: Forgot to address your brackish water – striped bass love Texoma brackish water.
Mrs G has caught a 13+ lb HSB out of lake Texoma!

I appreciate all the advice I really do. I guess my main goal is to have fun, a few fish dinners a year and be able to fish a couple days every month. Never thought of hsb only. Ill have to seriously sonsider that!

At first I figured ill catch and stock some bg and lmb and have a big bass pond. Thank god I found this forum and researched how to create a good fishery and avoid a stunted mess. It bothers me that the pond is muddy but I have done a jar test and it settles in a few days so I assume its wind. Plenty of gams and some crawfish found in it last summer. Turtles and frogs love this thing as well. There isn't much vegetation and no cover.

Here is a stupid question..when you sink in to your ankle in the shallows is that muck? If so it has that. Does aeration help that?

Good old Texas mud in a new pond - muck stinks...organic material...
G/

Just a thought to throw out there. In small ponds where overbreeding may be an issue why would you not Use Gambusia minnows over FHM?


Gambusia are known to prey on eggs, larvae, and juveniles of various fishes, including those of largemouth bass. They are also known to prey on adults of smaller fish species. Gambusia are difficult to eliminate once established (Meffe 1983; Marsh and Minckley 1990),

Gambusia would probably just be there. They probably wouldn't effectively "control" the population, and wouldn't be a real numerpus forage base. They would have minor effects on the ecosystem, but nothing drastic. For a small pond, you never know, things can be different depending on habitat and other stuff.

I thought I read somewhere that gams were too fast and small to be used as forage. I figure they cant hurt but if they eat eggs that would be good for me. I worry about bluegill overpopulation.

You could always go with the HBG instead of the CNBG.....

By the way...Happy Birthday!

I have considered hbg but worry because I have not been able to find a reputable source in texas. Anyone know of any? Most down here deal in cnbg except the fish truck guys.

thanks for the birthday wishes. I turned thirty today and my wife tells me as a gift to price what I want aeration and fish wise make a decision and she will foot the bill. Definitely picked a winner. My first love is music and been playing guitar 15 years after putting up with my guitar addiction this long i guess she figures this one will be cheaper. Little does she know. And got me a subsciption to the boss this evening..thats what I call a good day.

Tony, good advice for Northern ponds but we have options in the South that need to be discussed. I love your passion and posts for your HBG and have a high regard for your achievements.

WRFinTX, the reason that you can’t find a reputable source for HBG in Texas is fish farmers like Bob Waldrop of Tyler Fish Farms and Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries will not take any risk to dilute the pure Florida CNBG genetics that they have spent years developing.

If you want HBG they are cheap and easy to obtain when the Arkansas fish truck shows up at your local feed store. Just be prepared to accept many junk species in the mix.
George

WRF,

Take a look here. They have HBG listed in their price sheet.
HBG in Texas

I don't believe that Todd raises HBG on his farm but will let him speak for himself.

I do know that Todd has many reliable sources and since he is in the fish business can obtain just about any species a customer wants.
George

We have HBGL listed in order to be competitive. This is the only reason they are listed. I don't put them in my ponds, just buy and sell. Recently we have experimented with HBGL in some aquaponics systems. You have never seen me promote HBGL on the forum for pond stocking. They typically under-perform and have to be restocked because they seem to disappear over time in ponds. They are promoted by some outfits because they are hardy and easy to find. I recommend CNBG. They will grow larger and provide HSB with forage.

Typically underperform? I suppose that might depend upon one's definition of "perform"?

I regularly catch HBG that weigh between 1.25 and 1.5 lbs, I never have to worry about them overpopulating the pond and stunting, (matter of fact, they help control my LMB yoy), and a HBG will hands down outfight a comparably sized BG (and I suspect a CNBG as well) anytime.

That's my kind of underperformance!

Tony, I love your kind of "underperformance"!
I believe it's a big mistake to compare northern ponds with southern ponds and why I don't ever give advise about ice fishing...

I recall Ewest posting about growing some of Todd’s CNBG to 1 lb in 12 months and this is our growth rate as well.
I have hit near 1.5 lbs in 18 months a couple of times.
I was shooting for 2 lb CNBG but fish kill of 2011 set me back but maybe some day……

There is absolutely no concern about CNBG over population if proper management techniques are applied.

Good point SPRKPLUG. It is all relative.

But relative to the hype? Here is a quote taken from another website promoting HBGL: "This fish will reproduce twice per year which makes it ideally suited for feeding a new or existing bass population. However, this fish will reproduce at 90% male so it won't take over your pond like most bream. It will feed on a commercial feed with annual growth rates of up to 1/2 to 3/4 pound per season. With a good management program in place these fish can reach weights of 2 to 2 1/2 pounds and exceptional fish will reach the weight of 3 pounds or greater! Make the Hybrid Bluegill a part of your management program and reap the rewards for years to come." Compared to this they typically underperform in my experience.

I don't make big claims about HBGL. It is up to folks in the field to report results. I am sure millions of HBGL have been stocked nationwide. Where are all the pictures of huge HBGL from the field? There should be more pictures of these trophies. I can't find many.

Todd, Tony, George, I agree with all your points. It's all about the customers goals for that particular pond.

For instance, take a pond where they want to manage for trophy BG, have a FA problem, and the pond is stocked with LMB as a predator. The goal is to have the LMB concentrate on eating the YOY BG. Would Hybrid Tilapia (i.e. typically 90+% male) be a better choice to stock or still stock 50%/50% ratio of non-hybrid Tilapia?

What is a hybrid tilapia?
I manage our small pond with same sex tilapia - no overcrowding and good FA control - normally 5lbs dependant upon severity of FA.

G/

George, I'm pulling for you on those 2lb CNBG!! I would love to see you posting photos of those beauties! I'm hoping for a great growing season in Texas, with plenty of rainfall...you guys certainly deserve it!


As far as the HBG hype....sure, there's some out there. I consider such hype to be the leftovers from an obsolete way of thinking, from a time when HBG were often labeled as the perfect sunfish...the answer to stunting problems in ponds everywhere. Now we know better, or at least most of us do. Unfortunately, there are still some places that advertise the fish unfairly and inaccurately. But this is not the fish's fault, as much as it is the folks selling them.

To automatically discard the fish due to inaccuracies in its description may, in some instances, be doing yourself as well as your pond, a disservice. If my new car doesn't get the 60 mpg that the salesman who sold it to me said that it would, do I blame the car?

No....I blame the person who misrepresented it to me, and I blame myself for not doing the proper research, and not shopping/talking to other dealers before I bought it.

George makes an excellent point when he says that the risk of CNBG overpopulation is of no concern if proper management is applied. I agree with him on that point. But I must also stress that the very same is true of the HBG. When are we ever going to get over this idea that one can simply dump HBG fingerlings into a BOW, and be on your way to a trophy sunfish pond without fear of any repercussions?

That idea won't work with HBG, anymore than it will with native BG.

As far as trophy Bluegills go, yes, native BG have the potential to outgrow HBG. That doesn't automatically mean that they will. Take the photos of those three pound Bluegills we all love to admire....they seem to come from one or two places. How many guys on here have three pound bluegills swimming in their pond? Shoot, how many can reliably and consistently catch two pound bluegills in their own BOW?? Where are all the photos of those fish? That's often touted as a reason to choose BG over HBG...BG will get larger.

How many will get larger? Let's be honest,what percentage of an average CNBG population will hit two pounds? I haven't raised a two pound HBG yet, but I've got fish that I think are capable of getting there.


I'm not trying to argue, or say that the OP should stock HBG. I'm actually in agreement with what's been said here.....It's all relative.

WRFinTX, sorry your topic got hi-jacked!
If I can be of any help PM me – what happens in Texas stays in Texas…

Im actually glad it got hijacked. This info is very valuable to me as I have admired all of the respondents success in their own ponds and am trying to create some of this myself. Both tony and george grow beautiful fish hybrid or not and are obviously doing things right. I value all opinions and agree ultimately it all does depend. I feel that since my goal is to be able to fish sporadically and have a few meals a year...also be able to get my almost two year old daughter into fishing...that I will probably end up going the cnbg route as I am blessed with good genetics close by in buffalo tx. That really has more to do with it than anything. The fish truck guys worry me. I don't wanna start by stocking inferior fish and I cant guarantee the quality off a fish truck vs going and seeing and picking up my babies.

Again thank you to everyone for the great advice.

Randy

Randy, if I was faced with the choice of having to drive 6 hrs one way to get good quality fish, or have iffy fish delivered, the driveway would be in the rear view mirror in a heartbeat.

Im with you esshup. Ill be making the trip the last weekend in February to get my little guys and gals. At least then ill have piece of mind knowing I stocked good quality and if I screw it up....which I am sure I will..I can blame myself.

I'll just throw in an opinion, but I wouldn't stock HBG unless I absolutely needed to because I just think they're fugly.

I have caught them to about 1.25 lbs out of the pond at the Bush Library when I was at A&M. Also it's like "yah, I caught a big sunfish, but what the hell does it count as?" I feel the same about the guadalupe/smallmouth mutts that you catch out of the guadalupe river. It's almost like a "tainted" fish to me.

I much prefer CNBG if given the opportunity. They are very pretty. Though I still prefer the look of the bluegill strain from the Mississippi River that I caught from the oxbow lakes in NE LA though.

Anyway, that's my opinion on Hybrid bluegill. I understand there are situations where HBG work better than a regular BG though.

As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks like to target carp, or catfish, and they probably won't be winning any beauty contests' anytime soon.

I've even heard rumors that suggest some folks in the vicinity of the Trinity River target Alligator Gar..... Guess it takes all kinds!

I've fished for gator gar in the navasota river (a little to the west of the trinity). I've had a 5-6 footer hooked, but about 35 lbs is the best I've caught. We used live male bluegill on 80 lb braid/steel leadeds and bass gear. Probably would have ruined a reel on a good fish. Was fun though.

I've kayaked directly over a gar that was about 7 ft long on the colorado. I got about 3 ft over the top over him (about 3 ft over him) before I realized it wasn't a stump (fairly clear water that day). I know the approximate length and size because he seemed as long as my kayak and just as wide. I about pooped my britches when I saw what it was (middle of winter and was afraid I was going to spook it and have it turn me over).

George, a hybrid Tilapia is what they typically raise for the food industry, and treat the eggs somehow (I don't know how) so they are mostly male - they grow faster that way. If you have access to a bunch of Tilapia, and the supplier can sex 'em for you, so much the better!!!

Scott, you weren't around when tilapia were first introduced to our Texas ponds, but we have a lot of experience.
Overton can sort male/female tilapia as fast as he can look at them - even I can sort male/females from the same water.

Food industry source of tilapia may be necessary for your part of the country, but a non-issue for Texas ponds.
They are readily available each spring and inexpensive.
G/

George, they are available up here too, but not readily, and they aren't inexpensive!!

Yeah, I know...remember the days when you were asking questions instead of answering them?
We talked about his stuff..remember your thoughts about finding a food source provider?
We were very fortunate to have been on the leading edge of pond tilapia usage.
G/

I have and always will recommend hybrid fish in small Texas ponds. The HBG will spawn somewhat but not that effectively. The biggest problem in Texas ponds, other than drought, is overstocked ponds after a couple of years. And, they are usually bass heavy.

I have a small pond, about 1/10 acre when it rains, at the back of my place. It's about 3/4 of a mile from the house. For years it was a BG forage pond and I stocked a lot of other water holes from it. But, due to not being able to get anyone on the end of a seine, I have had a lot of fish kills. In a couple of years, it is full of fish again. If I ignore it, they over spawn and die. It's a PITA to trap it and toss them in the creek so it just doesn't get done like it should.

HBG ponds don't have that problem.