Well with this recent snow and a half inch of rain we got on Friday the pond came up another 4 ft, still aways to go, but I feel I need to come up with a stocking plan. If everything goes as planned I would like to stock my FHM and BG this spring. Then in the spring of 2015 stock my LMB,HSB,CC,HBG,YP. I know I am a little heavy on the predators, but I plan on only a small number of CC,and HSB. Does this sound ok? I will stock heavy on the FHM and BG this spring, then the BG should get in one spawn in the spring of 2015 before the predators are big enough to prey on them. I guess your first question is what is my goal. Well I guess my goal is to have a pond with realy big fish, and from what I am reading in other forums, that is not possible when you have a pond with big LMB. So without the LMB, what keeps the pond from getting overstocked with YP and BG. If I was to stock LMB, then do I remove all bass over 14"? I kind of like the idea of a HSB,SMB,CC,BG,HBG,YP,pond, would this work, and if so what kind of numbers would I stock? The pond is about 3 acres, with the deepest part being 16ft. I probably have at least a half acre of 4ft. and under. Thanks guys appreciate all the help. Steve

You said your goal is big fish.

What species of big fish do you want?

Esshup here is what I would like to do. I would like to raise big BG and big YP. I would like to stock HSB,SMB in place of LMB. I thought I would stock a small number of CC to help control the YP and the BG. I figure I will be able to control the CC and the HSB. I am not sure about raising SMB, have only caught a few out of Spoon River, never out of any ponds around here. So if this will work what kind of numbers do you suggest. I do plan on feeding, but haven't made a decision if I am going to aerate or not. Thanks for the help.

Steve-
Several of us have the SMB/BG combination, with and without YP and HSB. An emerging school of thought is that it may be possible to control BG numbers with SMB---if the BG are added well after the SMB are established, with multiple year classes present to prey on YOY BG at all stages of their growth in their first year. Sort of the exact opposite of the "establish the forage base first" mantra. It's too early at this point to know if this strategy will work or not, we're trying to get other suckers pond managers to try it also.There are other factors that can help the SMB as well-but having a well established population is probably key.

You have one of the premier pond managers not too far away-Herman Brothers. They can likely help with advice, fish sourcing, etc and you couldn't possibly deal with better people.

Consider first using RES and/or HBG instead of BG. Then when the need or desire arises (usually after 5-8yrs) add the BG. SMB will overall do and thrive much 'better' without BG and you will have fewer management problems if you first start or begin without BG. Add them later if not satisfied with results of RES-HBG.
If you haven't read through this topic, check it out for examples of what HBG can be in a pond fishery that is fed pellets.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

"Nodding head in agreement...."

I second both posts. Talk to Nate Herman, and leave the BG out of the mix for now. I'd definately feed, and make sure you stocked pellet trained YP, SMB, HSB. I know the RES in my clients pond are doing well, but they aren't growing fast (he's not feeding and feed trained RES are about impossible to find). Take a look at some of Sprkplug's posts about HBG. I think he's got HBG that are 1.5 lbs after a few years and feeding them good quality food.

Your pond will do better if aerated - the fish can utilize the whole water column and not be limited to the part above the thermocline during the summer, among other reasons.

RES get as big or bigger than BG. HBG grow really fast the first few years, and they are made for kids to catch. HSB will pull a LMB backwards in a pond if tied tail to tail. SMB put on a tremendous aerial display. SMB, if in a pond with LMB need to be periodically restocked due to the LMB out competing them. You can grow 13"-14" YP in a pond relatively easily, and Cecil Baird1 grew one to 16".

All good fish for a pond! Don't forget your forage base too - at the very least FHM to start. GSH will take some predation pressure off the YP. Good or bad, depending on the amount of predators in the pond. If your heart isn't set on CC, I'd leave them out. They are cheap to buy in larger sizes, and easily added later if you really feel that you need 'em.

Thanks guys for all the info. I was planning on calling Nate to help me come up with a stocking plan.

Ok I have finally have decided to stock the pond with HBG,RES,SMB,HSB, and YP. Was wondering if it would be ok to stock the HBG,RES this spring along with the FM. Then maybe waiting until the spring of 2015 to stock the SMB,HSB,YP?

Steve sounds like a good stocking plan, and Nate will guide you well.

I harbor some reservations regarding your forage base once the FHM are extirpated from the fishery. Your SMB, YP and HSB will have to make due with YOY and age 1 HBG, RES and YP as forage. Fish available in those size ranges [1-3"] will be heavily pressured, and I think you would benefit from considering alternative forage sources to help relieve the pressure.

I recommend crayfish - whatever is native to your area likely Northern or Papershell is my WAG.

Also recommend Grass Shrimp to help feed all your young fish, particularly your RES, YP, and HBG and SMB up to age 2.

Consider also another forage fish like another minnow species [bluntnose] or spotfin or golden shiner. The GSH will compete with your YP and HBG - but they will also help feed your SMB and HSB.

Lastly, consider implementing a pellet program with a Texas Hunter feeder. I have a pond about your size and one feeder takes care of it.

Hope some of this helps - Nate can provide all these fish and the feeder except maybe the BNM and SFS.

I wouldn't stock the HBG with the RES and forage. HBG are very predatory with big mouths. They are cheap to source even at bigger sizes. Leave them out until your stock the other predators. Let your forage fish grow unmolested. RES will eat a few but it will be minimal at worst.

If it was me, I would work with Nate and see if I could get RBS instead of HBG. Nate is in the forefront of exotic and unusual fish species and stocking combinations. I think he could help you get a source of RBS in your area. I think you'd be happy with the RBS results compared to HBG for your planned fish stocking combination.

I'd love to see someone try the RBS...still waiting on some real life reports on their role/niche in a fishery.

I will talk to Nate about the RBS. I will be feeding, and had planned on adding some crayfish. Was wondering if the HSB,SMB,would be able to control YP and RBS both. I am assuming that the RBS would have a lot larger spawn than the HBG. Was also wondering will the RBS take to pellets.

RBS are obviously not mostly male like HBG are. However, they are even less prolific than GSF and their success is even more limited in ponds that do not have clean sand or gravel bottoms. They can nest in muck/mud but their success rates are lower.

You can also look into sourcing the golden color morph of RBS which would make them even more susceptible to predation. Contact Greg Grimes, he can put you on a source of them if Nate cannot. And yes, RBS will readily take to pellets. I was able to get wild caught RBS on pellets without issue. I had a few male BG that were pellet trained and the RBS learned from them. The ones from the hatchery will come pellet trained.

It would be interesting to see how the RBS perform in Illinois, especially since having a population of large panfish is one of the goals.

Some photos of RBS appear to have a more terminal mouth like a RES and the AL DNR stated a preferred forage item was mollusks and crayfish. Wonder if they possess the pharyngeal molars like RES and PS? Looks like the world record is 1.12, so they seem to top out a little beyond PS but definitely smaller than a BG.

OK guys I could really use some help here. I finally got enough rain this week to get the pond within 26 inches of being full. My plan is to stock SMB,YP,HSB,RES. In the spring I stocked my FHM,GSH, 250 RES, 200 Hybrid RES. I was planning on stocking HBG, but a hatchery in northern Illinois thought I would be short on the forage and would need BG. I am definitely not going with BG. As you guys have advised me earlier in this post,I have tried to contact Nate Herman but I haven't heard anything back from him yet. I noticed he hasn't been on PB or his web site since July. My question is this, should I stock some HBG, and some more RES this fall, and if so what kind of numbers. Should I stock the Hybrid RES, or the standard RES. The hybrids have done really well this year, they were 2" to 4", and in 11 weeks were 6 1/2 to 7 1/4 inches. They pulled off a spawn, and was taking to pellets. I am also worried about my forage base, so I was wondering if I should stock extra heavy on the HBG, and the RES this fall, so they might pull off a spawn come next spring. Then in the spring stock the predators. I would think I would still have another good FHM spawn. I figure the HBG will eat some of the smaller FHM this winter, but most of the adults will survive. Thanks in advance for the help. Steve