Here is a good topic for everyone. Whats your thoughts on stocking some bullheads in a new pond for extra forage for bass and for kids to catch. When i was a kid all the old farm ponds had lots of bullheads in them and there was always nice healthy big bass. Anymore very few of these same ponds have bullheads since they have been cleaned out or had channel cat added to them. I am thinking there has to be some good in have them in a pond. i remember those huge schools of baby bullheads and the bass just going crazy eating them. any thoughts? I was thinking about stocking 25 of them in a pond.

Does anyone like bullheads in a pond for largemouth

I don't think they really make much difference. If you want variety add some. A pond with a healthy established LMB population should keep them under control.

I agree I have a small pond over ran with bullheads but the added a few bass and the bullheads are well kept in check and both fish species are huge and healthy.

So is what I am hearing is that bullheads are good for bass forage. And bullheads don't grow very big they probably dont compete with bass for food that much. I know nobody wants bullheads but bass love them and they are very fun for young kids to catch. So really what are they hurting?

Are bullheads the same thing as mud-cats?

Not for sure what a mud cat is

Ok...I looked it up:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/species/catfish/

"Unlike other catfish which are scavengers,
flatheads (mud cats) prey only on live fish"

interesting

No that is a flathead they grow very big

KSBASS, in a KS pond with LMB and black bullheads, you almost certainly will end up with a low density of big (2 pound?) bullheads that the kids will occasionally catch. Those are impressive fish. As you probably know, their offspring each summer will school in pods, and the bass will find them very easy prey. I think the general resistance to bullheads is that they overpopulate and stunt when there aren't enough predators, and so people just sort of generally avoid them.

Dave-Not to hijack thread [can start a new one if needed], but could you give some insight into your experience with SMB and BH?

Yolk -- I can't tell you! I don't know what SMB and BH would do in a pond. I have no experience on that combiination whatsoever! You'd think that those pods of young bullies are so vulnerable that the smallies could/would get them, but the smallies are not as effective a predator as LMB. I guess we would have to consider such an effort to be experimental. Wonder if anyone else has any observations?

Thanks, Dave.
Hopefully others with experience will chime in....

Thanks Dave I just think its a good idea for extra forage plus fun for kids as long as they are managed. Im not for sure on the smallmouth as i have never stocked them but i know LM love em. So i think will go ahead and stock some. Knothing else the bass will eat most and if i want them out i will just catch em all out. but I doubt i will need to. The LM will handle them on their own

Not to belabor the point, but I guess bullheads
are also sometimes known as mud-cats.

"The black bullhead is one of several
catfish informally referred to as mud catfish"

http://www.smithcreekfishfarm.com/p-94-the-bullhead-catfish.aspx

TJ and Sunil have bullheads swimming with smallmouth. TJ's I know are not a problem. I think the combination of a lot of predators as well as the bullheads possibly getting a late start in relation to these predators. They were well established before the bullheads found their way in and I think he rarely sees them.

Thanks, Omaha. That certanly makes sense.
This is gettng pretty far afield on a bass vs bullhead thread, but does any know if WE will consume BH? Just discovered that some of the WE my fish guy stocked 4 years ago as a lark have survived.

Just about any predatory fish will eat another fish if it can fit it in its mouth and they run into each other in the same habitat. Since WE get fairly large and BH start out very small, they both are nocturnal and bottom related fish, I suspect WE will feed on BH. There are far more ideal prey items for WE than BH. Just like there are far more ideal prey items for LMB than BH as well.

Thanks, CJ. I wasn't thinking of adding BH specifically for feeding the WE, more wondering if the WE would contribute meaningfully to controlling a BH population, when paired with SMB.
Might be a little risky, as there is a lot of cover in the pond and I'd fear that a lot of the BH might escape predation.

I would not intentionally stock bullheads. There are so many other options that would be better in my opinion.

My pond eventually arrived at a substantial population of advanced sized bullheads, 10-14"+, that were not subject to any predation. This was with 5lb. + LMB in the pond. Once a bullhead gets 12" +, I don't think they get eaten much by LMB.

We did a mass fishing derby to eradicate them. We took out maybe 80+, and it has made a huge difference in our immediate fishing area.

catmandoo cleaned most all of them, and found FA in most all of their guts. They could have been rooting in the FA for some other organism, but none the less, they consumed it.

I once saw a feed trained smallie torpedo a 14" bullhead that was hitting the feed. Made me proud.

This made me smile.

FWIW- Here's my experience with BH. I never knew I had them in my ponds until I had a winter kill. My LMB froze out 5 winters ago. I decided to try something new and not restock LMB not knowing I had BH in there. I think the LMB where eating them as fast as they were born. About 3 summers ago, for the first time, I noticed a pod of bullheads swimming. Fast forward to today, I am now forced to either add a predator like a LBM or kill and start over. THOSE BH ARE EVERYWHERE!

Bottom line as I see it...If you ever have a fish kill (DO sag, super cooling, or such) the BH will most likely survive. And without predation those bad boys will take over very quickly!

As much as I like eating those ugly buggers, I would avoid them at all costs.

The LMB, if stocked large enough can maybe control the cats. But, it takes time. Like several years and your mileage might vary due to climate differences.

Many, many years ago, we inadvertently found that a small ranch pond had 2 to 3 pound bass. The owner didn't know there were fish in it. So, we proceeded to start eating bass. Within a couple of years we only caught bullheads. There weren't enough bass to control them and the BH's had started to control the bass. We had screwed up the balance of the pond. So, finally we started bucket stocking 12 to 13 inch bass. Within about 3 years, it once more had nice bass and some whopper bullheads.

I was wondering if CC could knock back my BH numbers. I really don't want to start over and I am trying to avoid LMB. I am thinking of putting in 10-20 between 18"-24" this summer. Could CC do the same type of control like a LMB with regards to BH's?

Not the same, but they will eat BH.

CJ- I have access to CC. How many CC would you stock into a 1 acre pond to try and control the BH numbers? I could stock as big as 24" CC.

How big are the vast majority of the bullheads? Like a range, say 4"-6", 8"-10", etc...

We have caught and trapped a few 8"er's but most are the 4-6" range.

I can't say with high confidence, but by 20" a CC has a fairly large mouth. If the BH are plentiful and in the 4" range, I would think they would be able to prey on them.

I have caught a lot of channel cat off baby bh but a few large flathead should work better for you a 40 pounder could eat any bh I ever sean.

When you say baby BH, what length would you say they were?

I think I if put a few flatheads in my little drop of water that would be all I end up with!

3 to 5 inches, but even tho they eat them they might not control them bc What makes large mouth bass so good at CC and BH control is that they fry sworn together at a young age and with a few passes of a large mouth bass the fish are gone. When I was a kid I would swim a pond that always seed to produce large swarms of BH fry and I could swim up to and scoop up a hand full of them. So the point is if I could catch them a large mouth bass could with ease. I just don't think CC would take advantage of pursuing a sworn of bh like a bass would.

Yes they will eat BH. The two don't get along very well eventually the channel will take over the BH

I agree with Patrick. I have a pond that has had BH and CC in it for several years and I never noticed a decline in BH numbers.

However I do have a bass pond that caught some BH in the runoff water, and within about a year I have not seen another BH especially no BH swarms

This is just my experience though!

KSBASS,

Been a while since you've posted but just happened on this. Reading this made me go back and find some scenarios I had evaluated in an excel workbook. The question I was seeking answers for was whether BH could replace BG as bass forage. The obvious obstacle is fingerling survival of the BH because with no reproduction, the BH would be extirpated and they would not grow to sufficient size to feed large bass. One solution is to stock BH at a suitable size be eaten by 18+ in LMB and in sufficient quantity that they continue to grow while they are consumed by the large LMB. This scenario involves growing BH in a forage pond where they could be raised without aeration at 1200 lbs/acre (probably greater density could be achieved). The annual stocking to the main pond represents the recruitment you need but can't achieve in the presence of LMB in the main pond. I've cleaned up the spreadsheets and made them look nice and so anyone interested in the scenario is may download from the link below.

There are two scenarios. One which maximizes trophy bass and one which maximizes the production of eating size BH.

The appeal for trophy bass is that one manages nearly the entire BH biomass to be forage for large bass. The BH are stocked too large for 12" LMB to eat, the BH are harvested by fisherman when they are at the upper end of what LMB can eat. The BH will produce many offspring but the contingent of small LMB easily pick them off. The small bass are there to ensure that BH do not over recruit (the forage pond supplies the annual large LMB sized forage). When small bass can compete for 6" BH, these bass must be harvested. Maintaining the biomass of BH at lengths appropriate for 18 - 24 inch LMB ensures adequate forage for the trophy sized fish (which of course must be kept to an appropriate number). I imagined this as a BOW which provides twice a week recreational fishing for BH, where when BH are caught they are fin clipped (particularly the pectoral and dorsal spines) and perhaps the hyperdermic injection of air to make them struggle to stay below the surface. One would feed BH caught and released this way in no more quantity than the LMB could efficiently consume in a feeding.

The second scenario produces no large bass and depends upon relentless harvest of any bass large enough to eat the BH stockers. The presence of large LMB would reduce the BH harvest because of predation. On the other hand, insufficient small bass might allow excessive reproduction. In essence, however, they are the same management plan with this exception. Fisherman replace the trophy LMB as the apex predator in the latter scenario. BH are harvest in their second season to maximize production.

The blue spaces in the spreadsheets are places that you can manipulate with different numbers. The green spaces contain computational information of interest. These scenarios were set up for a BOW which can naturally produce 300 lbs of BH annually. The first scenario requires 1 sack of Catfish feed annually per acre and the second none. The milage you get would depend on your BOW's production potential and feeding program. It is meant to be a starting place. By adjusting the blue parameters you can find the conditions approximating a particular BOW. So you can also do what-ifs with the SS. If anyone has questions feel free to ask.

If you feed the BH a good quality fish pellet and start with 3"-5" fish they will grow to 9"-10" in two years and 11"- 13" in 3 years. I grew yellow BH in a cage for 3 years. They tolerate well cage life and lower water quality. A strong LMB population will keep the BH recruitment numbers to a minimum. Controlling the numbers of LMB will determine how many new YOY BH survive each year (young of year).

I read an article on fishing for BH in farm ponds several years ago. It said to enjoy them while you can because in a pond with adequate LMB predation eventually they would become extirpated with none of the young surviving and only the old large ones left.

Jpsdad's idea of using them for a forage fish for LMB by raising them in another pond is an interesting, outside the box thinking, concept. Not one I am going to implement, but interesting nonetheless.

In my old pond that became over run with GSF and BH, link to my thread and experience with GSF and BH in an old pond we fished it a few days ago and only caught one BH. A couple years ago we would have caught a bunch. So they are being crowded out and eliminated over time. We have both LMB and CC in that pond.

I've had BH in my pond almost since day one. When I fished for them I was catching fish close to 12 inches. Last year I saw several swarms simultaneously of 40-50 fish up to 4" in the pond. Since introducing the LMB and GSF have taken hold I've yet to see any YOY and only a very few 6-10 inch fish come to feed on pellets. I expect in a couple years, barring another flood, I'll be completely devoid of BH.

I wouldn't be doing it either, LOL! Big bass just are not that important to me But if they were, and if a state record were my goal, I just might if I had a couple of BOWs to do it with. The hardest part of big bass is all that it takes to grow forage of suitable size and in sufficient quantity.

I have a 1/8 acre forage pond, maybe max 8 feet deep. Water quality not as good as main BOW due to less natural air exchange & relatively less runoff. Still, managed to raise good numbers of CNBG last year & put them in main pond.

Wonder if BH would be better bass forage. They can take lower water quality than CNBG and cheaper grain based feed. Unlike CC, they won't outgrow what a large LMB can eat.

Downside: BH have larger mouths than any BG, may compete more directly with LMB for food.

anthropic,

BH compete also with the CNBG. . . and here is an example of how they can compete with LMB.

There is also a paper online on standing weights of OK farm ponds. One of things they noted was that BG size and standing weights suffered in the presence of BH. The scenario I worked up in the spreadsheet depended on no competing species for the BH and I wonder how the interaction would play out.

If you have some water nearby where you could source good quantities of some decent sized BH, then I really like the idea Bill had about caging them. Then you feed them to your bass from the cage at the rates you see fit. Chop off the pectoral and dorsal spines and the caudal fin and a 14" BH is an easy meal for a 24 inch LMB. It'll weigh a pound more right after the meal too! LOL.

Forage diversity is very good for growing predators because when one specie is lacking the other provides adequate food items.

I have found BH below my 15" outlet pipe from 3" to 8" in length, but my outlet pipe drops about 6' over its 80' length. I have never seen a BH in the pond or any catfish since the CC died off. Either the BH cannot get up the pipe or the LMB pick them off pretty quick. Either way, I am good with there being no BH in the pond. Think the BG are sufficient as LMB forage, but may add some LCS if more wash out the pipe on the SMB pond. I also once found gizzard shad below the pipe along with the BH and never found any of these in the pond either.

I will 2nd that bullheads eat a lot of bluegill. I have a lot of them in my lake. I put out a set line trying to catch a cat fish, to see if any have survived. I used a 4 to 5 inch green sunfish. Bait would be gone every time line twisted up but no fish. After a week of this I finally caught a 5 to 6 inch bullhead after I caught 2 or 3 of these I used the 5 inch bullhead for bait. He lasted about 2 days when I caught a 10 inch bullhead. I use that 10 inch fish for bait and finely caught a channel cat fish, maybe 2.5 lbs and 16 to 18 inches long. The mouth of that fish was very small compared to the size of the bait. Also use 1.5 and 2 inch jigs for crappie and catch a lot of bullheads that are 5 to 12 inch long. My point is they are a predator that will eat larger fish than most people would think they would. Not just a bottom feeding fish that eat grub and worms on the bottom of a pond.
I would not put them in any body of water, but I do know they will be hard to catch when you have a large bass population. The main question would be, do they eat too many smaller fish that the bass need or do they make good bass food them selves.

LMB also eat smaller LMB. BG also eat small BG and do many fish. So the answer is what are the goals and this will determine how the pond should be managed.

BHs feed from the bottom all the way to the top. They eat everything BG eat and can also eat mid-size forage fish. Other than things like carp, buffalo, and tilapia that can solely depend on a vegetarian diet, I know of no other fish that can attain the biomass of BH in a fertile farm pond without additional feed. Perhaps BG, but they would likely die from a DO event shortly after achieving a biomass of 800 lbs/acre in an un-aerated pond.





To willfully stock BH in pond would require a desire to have them. Even though I have fond memories of fishing for BH in my grandfather's pond and eating them for supper and breakfast, I probably wouldn't stock them in my pond either. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with feeding them in an impaired condition. In your case where you already have them, I would target them occasionally, enjoy catching them, and when caught one, I would clip the spines, trim the tail, and return the fish to its fate (though I wouldn't be averse to eating it). Whether it feeds a bass will depend on the size of your bass, the size of the BH, and the presence of other large predators that might compete for it. Worst case ... it recycles by other means.

As to the main question, there is most frequently both winners and losers in an interaction. The only fish that might benefit from a 13" BH gorging on BG would be a much larger predator fish like a 22"+ LMB that can't make efficient use of the prey that the BH was eating. The losers would be 12" to 16" LMB which would target the same fish the BH is capable of eating.