I recently purchased a home on 50 wooded acres in western MN that also features a 10 acre pond. I have always dreamed of owning a pond that I could manage for big BG. My pond is about 9 feet deep, but since the water is a bout 3 feet lower than normal it is probably 12 feet deep when the water levels are normal. It contains a fair amount of flooded timber. I have only owned it for 2 months now and it has been covered with ice since I purchased it. I did drill some holes through the ice and drop my AquaView down - saw quite a few golden shiners and no other fish. I tried ice fishing and did not catch anything - just nibbles from the shiners. My neighbor who is a long time resident of the area said that the shiners have been in there for 50 years or longer. I contacted the MN DNR for stocking info and they asked me to consider allowing them (the MN DNR) to use my pond as a walleye brood pond. They would do some test netting free of charge and if the pond is suitable they would stock with walleye fingerlings this spring and then trap net some of the walleyes back out in the fall. They say that they usually are able to trap about 30% of what they put in back out. I have 3 young boys that love to fish so my primary goal is to stock LMB and BG and manage for large BG. I would not mind having some walleyes in there too because it would add to the excitement of fishing the pond knowing that we could also catch walleyes. I am fairly certain that the walleyes would not spawn due to lack of a rocky bottom for spawning habitat. I would be willing to purchase an aerator if necessary to prevent winterkill. Does anyone out there have any opinions about allowing the DNR to stock walleyes? Would they negatively affect the potential to establish a high density LMB population and establish the BG population? Does anyone think that the GS will make it difficult to establish gamefish populations through competition for the zooplankton as a food source? If fingerling walleyes are stocked this spring when should I stock LMB and BG fingerlings? Thank you in advance - any advice is sincerely appreciated.

Brent, congratulations on the purchase of the pond! And, welcome to the forum...

Some very interesting questions you have!

There are a few things that hit me right off. First, if you are seeing huge numbers of GSH and nothing else in a 10 acre pond that has been around for 50 years plus, it indicates the pond winter kills pretty regularly. GSH are very winter kill tolerant while game fish are not quite so much. This leads me to believe you will need to establish an aeration program and especially one geared towards preventing winter kill. 9 feet deep is not deep enough to prevent winter kill in MN and 12 feet is pushing the limit as well. Aerating a pond of that size can cost some serious $$$$ though... I would make a separate post in the aeration section of the forum to start getting some good advice.

As far as your goals... If you are able to get an aeration system set up that will prevent winter kill, the sky is the limit. A pond that size has lots of carrying capacity and with that, lots of options. before I stocked anything, I would look into what you have in your pond. At 50 years of age, that's a long time for bucket stocking to happen, and only God knows what's in that pond now. As the weather warms, I would start doing some fishing. Especially with a smaller hook, size 8 or 10 and use small pieces of worm. You can also fish small shiners etc to try to gauge the different species and sizes of fish that may be in there.

Bringing the state into your private pond can have negative consequences. Mostly, they may rule the show... They may place restrictions on what you do with your pond if they are placing their fish in it. I would get in writing exactly what you can and cannot do if they stock fish. Who owns these fish after they do their original harvest? Will you have to follow state public water laws after they are done harvesting these fish. They may restrict you being able to stock any other species of fish until after they harvest or perhaps for years afterwards. They may restrict you from fishing your ponds until they harvest. Be very careful...

It will not be difficult establishing game fish into a pond full of GSH. However, they will directly compete with BG and small LMB for food sources. This is just something you are going to have to deal with though, as they are most likely there to stay. You may see as the years go on after stocking game fish and those game fish reproduce and grow in numbers that your GSH population will go down dramatically.

WE will not prevent you from growing quality BG in a LMB/BG pond. If anything, they may help some. But again, before you accept a deal from the DNR, research it and get the restrictions in writing.

CJ brings up very valid points. Here's another. Will the state require you to allow the public to fish the pond if public funds are used to stock the lake with WE?

I second getting everything in writing. It's hard just starting out - there's so many questions to ask; every answer might bring up more questions. But, that's the way you learn!

There will be plenty advice from members if you have more questions.

I agree on getting the DNR involved. I think it's very risky. I'd ask them to stock everything you need (they probably won't agree, but it's a starting point). You have something that they want - make 'em pay for it. Also, make the agreement for one year and see how it goes before you agree to a longer term deal...

I am glad the DNR guy that I deal with in Indiana is a lot friendlier and helpful than your guys seem to be. However, it seems like they would like to use your forage base to raise some fish which could work in your favor or not depending on your goals for the pond. If you want to fish for some walleye, then this might be a good deal, and these fish could test the suitability of your pond for other species next winter.

I would not let the DNR near your water. Who is the boss you or them - that is the question. I have even seen written agreements deemed unenforceable against the DNR type agencies after the fact because the agency decided the guy who signed for them (director) did not have authority to bind the state.

You ask them a question and their reply was why don't we do what is best for the DNR. That should be a big hint at their thought process. Do it your way and in the long run you will be very glad you did.

CJ's assessment of the situation (fish and pond) is very good.

Note - my only exception to DNR involment in a private water is if they provide assessment by electrofishing without obligation and charge to individuals as part of the public at large. In the past I have helped those type agencies do public education programs. Some of them are friends so it is not personal.

Congrats and welcome to the forum, Brent! Wow, what a score! I can count on a few fingers the number of forum members who bought a parcel with that large a BOW already established. Good for you.

Considering the low cost of WE from MN hatcheries I don't feel it's wise to involve the state for all the reasons mentioned above - certainly not to save a few hundred bucks on WE stocking. With the natural abundance of WE surrounding you it's conceivable you could stock hundreds of advanced fish for free, if you're willing to put in the time fishing, and supplementally stock another 50-100 annually of advanced fish [15"+] or whatever the MN minimum size reg calls for.

Now, if the state were willing to provide all fish stocking for free, annual electroshocking surveys free, and other management services [vegetation control, shoreline stablization, etc.] now maybe it's worth considering. The value of some free WE would not override my concerns involving the state in my slice of paradise - but that's my personal take.

I would check with some neighbors who own ponds and inquire their depth and ask if they are seeing fish kills. I am worried about the depth and current population of fish like Travis. However, considering your goals for the fishery [LMB/BG] I wouldn't be too worried about species present as LMB will utilize anything as forage, so you have that going for you. While a 10 acre lake might be costly to fully aerate, I don't think you need the entire lake aerated to prevent a fish kill - as long as you have some open water I think that will help prevent major kills. Aeration experts will be along shortly.

Congrat's on the property and the pond! My two cents on some of your questions.

From my experience and my small network of pond owners here in MN, a 9' deep pond would work fine under the right conditions. (Sorry to disagree CJ)
IMHO-You will almost certainley need aeration. Great people and very knowledge people on this forum for all your aeration needs. If I were you, I would go slow. Do nothing this year but learn what your pond has in it. Read, read, and read some more about pond management. Also and I think the most important, get in contact with a private pond ower near you. We pond owners love to talk about and show our ponds to other pond lovers. This will save you some coin and take years out of your learning curve. Set some inexpensive minnow traps, walk the shore looking into the water, do some fishing.

I'm sure I'm going to offend someone here but its been my experience...When it comes to private water in MN, NEVER EVER USE THE MN DNR for anything! NEVER!

I have heard this about MN. Too bad, such a waste!

Thank you all for your input! I had wondered if GS were more resistant to winterkill than gamefish - thank you CJSB2003. If it is true that there are no gamefish in the pond it is likely that it has experienced winterkills in the past. I will have to do some experimental fishing when the ice melts to find out for sure if it contains any gamefish. With my luck it will be full of bullheads - yuck! I believe that my pond is actually a natural pond (not man-made) and like many ponds in my area, it is likely a result of the rising water table (similar to what is occurring at Devil's Lake ND). I do think I am going to take a year or two to learn the pond better and study pond management before doing any stocking, no reason to be in a hurry, thank you mnfish. I have a guy from a local environmental company coming out tomorrow to measure dissolved O2 top to bottom. We have had a real winter in MN this year with over 2 feet of ice on the pond and 18-24 inches of snow on top of the ice. I would guess that this would be about the best time of year to measure dissolved O2 levels. I will post the results tomorrow.

Please post water temps at the levels that he measures the O2 also. Both numbers are intertwined.

Aerating part of the lake might do more harm than good. Fish near the diffuser should survive, and fish away from the diffuser might die. They don't know to swim towards higher O2 levels, I can attest to that from winterkill in a clients pond last year.......

Since you will live there and get 12"-24" of ice, areas of the pond can be snow plowed with a 4 wheeler or small ATV. Snow cover for extended periods is the primary cause of winterkill. Plow snow in strips 4'-8' wide preferrably in N-S directions. This will allow sunlight penetration thru ice into the water and produce oxygen minimizing winter kills. Lighr will easily penetrate 24" of ice with no snow cover. Many northern lake owners do this. Make sure ice is uniformly 10"-12" thick before plowing snow with an ATV. Snow can be plowed in areas remote from the aeration diffusers which will minimize chances winterkill in non-aerated areas.
Also consider using yellow perch (YP) in your fishery. They tolerate lower DO concentrations compared to some of the more common sportfish. YP can be combined with BG, pumpkinseed sunfish, LMB, SMB, and or walleye. Northern pike could reproduce in the pond if shallow, marshy, weedy bays are present. IMO reproducing NP would be detrimental to the overall fishery balance. Adding 30-50 walleye 4z"-8" long every 2-3 yrs would provide good bonus fish to the pond. Kep us advised of your progress with this pond. Use this thread so we have a history of the situation. Try going back and modifying the title as 'Finally Own a Pond in MN'. Moderators can do that for you if you can't figure out how to do it.

Bill:

I've done the "modify the title" thing before and a moderator has to do it. IIRC I found that the titles in each reply has to be changed or it won't automatically change with a new response.

Esshup - Okay I will try to change the title so it is a little more descriptive.

Bill: Thanks for the PM. Learned something new today!

Read the subject and posts. All were good and this will be another very good learning tool for all that need it, like me.
I cannot add any real factual substance to this subject but it did bring up a question from my simple mind. I am not trying to high jack, but in a response from esshup on aeration,it was stated that fish could die because they do not know to move to a higher o2 area of a pond. I have been inclined to believe they do move in lakes/ponds vertically for better water conditions that would include o2 as well as temp. Esshup, you have forgot more than I will ever know, so as a learning experience for me and I hope more than one ignorant soul(me),please explain for us why fish move up and down for temp. but not laterally for o2. That brings me to another condition in a lake this large (10 Acres) with trees,if fish that like trees, LMB and others, would they hang out in the tree area even thought temp., water conditions as well as o2 were not as good as other areas of the lake? The LMB or others would not move to better conditions? Or am I being a little to simplistic and fish will not move JUST for o2, all other condition about the same.
Esshup, I know you know why, but I want to learn why too.

No more high jack, and I would like to tell Brent H. you are or will soon, be glad you have hooked up with the pond boss family. Welcome and you have already saved at the least, money, wasted time,and some frustration by waiting to do anything. Ask questions,and read, read, read.
I am sure it took me longer(approx 1 yr.) for the light bulb to come on and you only a day or two, but most of us get there sooner or later. You have found the best place to VET your pond.

I assure you fish will move for better DO and temps. Its survival !

Think of the things that would cause you to move in a hurry - danger would be one - but at the very top of the list would be air. If you can't breathe you will move if possible. Same for temps. If you are out freezing in the wind you move for cover. Fish are no different - it’s a biological response.

The problem in MN is the combo of low DO and cold which can result in a catch 22. If there is any indication that your pond winterkills then do something as evidence shows that those that do are often repeat offenders.

Hi ewest, the DO then is not so much the issue, it is the cold h2o? I know the metabolic rate of the fish slow in the cold water and does their ability to sense the low o2 diminish too? I guess what I am asking is, what are the dynamics that would prevent the fish from moving to the areator area where the o2 is probably higher in the above mentioned lake example(cold water)?

esshup stated:
Aerating part of the lake might do more harm than good. Fish near the diffuser should survive, and fish away from the diffuser might die. They don't know to swim towards higher O2 levels, I can attest to that from winterkill in a clients pond last year.......

I guess I am a bit confused. I have read that in some cases large ponds,irregular pond shapes,larger and smaller lakes may need more than one aeration heads to promote circulation in areas not effectively circulated. SO, if the fish will move, why not have just one aeration station with a head(s) that will circulate the water in the time frame required and the fish can just move into that area.
I know what assuming does, but here are the ideas that pop into my head. When water is cold, the fish will not move to the aerated area because they are to sluggish/dormant,too far to go, or something like that. In the warmer weather I do not have any idea why a fish would not move to a aerated area of the pond/lake if o2 is low in another area. Just trying to figure it out/understand.

I understand sometimes "it depends" and I get that now. Maybe this is one of those cases where I just do not have enough knowledge to be able to figure it out, just yet,and I just need to keep on reading.

mpc, I can not fathom a winter kill in a properly aerated pond unless it is too shallow for the given climate extremes and became supercooled. An iced over pond that is aerated deeply can quickly over (super) cool the pond, killing fish, and is why diffusers should be moved to more shallow areas to both MILDLY circulate/aerate water and keep an opening in ice for toxic gasses to escape without over cooling the deeper waters...

MANY factors come into play in aeration and is why some here are experts dedicated to that one and only aspect in waters management.

Rainman answered your question. The catch 22 is DO vs. cold water. If the fish move to max DO they freeze. If they don't move they suffocate.

In an unaerated shallow pond with ice and no snow removal the DO goes down and the water gets cold. A lethal situation. Ponds that winter kill tend to do it repeatedly.

Well, I had the DO and temps measured in 1 foot increments in my pond in 3 locations top to bottom. DO concentrations were similar in all 3 locations and ranged from about 2.6 ppm at the top to about 1.3 ppm at the bottom. It looks like it will winter kill for sure unless I install an aerator and plow snow. I may decide to install an aerator in a year or two - I need that much time to save up for an aerator and convince my wife. Like I said before no reason to be in a hurry. If nothing else it is a beautiful pond and attracts quite a few ducks and geese in the fall - we also like to hunt waterfowl. Thanks essup, I thought that the fish would move to areas with higher O2 levels but it makes sense that they don't. I have seen isolated bays off of larger lakes winter kill and wondered why the fish didn't move out - makes sense that they didn't know to do so.

mpc, I'm far from knowing as much as I should know!

In a clients pond last year, there was a winterkill. Windmill aeration. Long relatively narrow for it's length pond, shallow on one end, winter diffuser set in deepest end of the pond, about 2/3 down the water column. Post winterkill (under the ice) there were many more dead fish on the shallower end away from the diffuser than were in the deeper end around the diffuser. That's what I based my comment on. My thoughts were that if they could sense higher O2 levels, why weren't the dead ones near the diffuser where the O2 levels were higher? Why so many in the shallow end?

This pond had 75 HSB and 20 RBT stocked in it, along with RES, YP, GSF, GSH and FHM. At the time of the winterkill there were 75 HSB and 16 RBT in it. 74 HSB died, 13 RBT died. No other fish were observed killed by the winterkill.

Brent, stock some FHM in there along with those GSH. They will help control mosquito larvae in shallow water and they'll survive low O2 levels. When you get around to installing an aeration system, and finally fish, the forage base should be pretty well established.

Thanks ewest, makes sense TO THIS THICK SKULL. I did learn something. Caught between an ice cube and no air, I might just sit there too, if I were real cold.
Being from EAST TX. too, I do not consider real cold water often. It has been 30+ years since we had a fish kill on a major body of water around here, due to ice.
I did realize that the pond was a cold BOW(winter pond), but wanted to get a better feel as to why the fish would not move.
I have read in other posts and subjects about in Northern climates mostly, to move the diffuser up to shallower water to help keep a few degree warmer water area for the fish to be in, near the pond bottom area.
If I remember right, about 39F degrees or better, is the magic number.

Thanks Rainman, you and ewest have me cleared up.

Thanks too esshup, I hate to hear about your clients fish die off. I will better now understand one scenario that might have happened. Deep, too cold water aerator too deep and no 02 in shallow water, due to ice and no circulation, no diffuser, the end result, catch 22 and the die off.

Brent - While there is a lot of good info above; I suggest that you step back and figure out what you really have for a pond and what it contains for fish and etc.

Every pond Minnesota is different. There are many 6-10 foot deep ponds around here that haven't had winter kills in my life-time. Gathering opinions and anecdotal evidence is a part of the process, but that is far less important than actual observations and sampling.

A one time D.O. test will give you information about a single point in time. Ponds are living things and like any living thing they are changing on a continuous basis. While interesting, that point in time test really won't tell you a lot.

If you haven't checked my Weekly Observations it may be worth a look.

Think of it this way; your 10 acre pond probably contains around 25,000,000 gallons of water. It will be a big (but fun) job figuring out what all those gallons contain.

I suggest fishing that pond hard for a year to see what you have for fish populations. If you can afford it, you could hire professionals do the fish survey. If your budget is limited, just go fishing a lot and get your friends and family to help. Keep records and after a period of time the picture will begin clearing.

And finally, keep the DNR out of your business unless you have a DNR officer that has been your best friend for life. Even then........