Pond Boss
Posted By: budster Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/24/12 12:42 PM
My Pond was re-constructed after drying out last summer in the drought. It is doing well, full and "happy". In early March I stocked 200 1-3" CNBG, 100 3-6" CNBG, 100 3-6" RSF, and 5 #'s of FHM, and I have been feeding lightly since April. The Pond is only 1/2 acre, and while I know I need to add some predators at some point, I am reluctant to use LMB as my Goal is to raise good size eating CNBG's, not LMB. It seems to me that the HSB would be a good choice for this purpose as they will not propagate, but the question I have is how many to stock? Adding enough to control CNBG population without wiping them out. I guess I'm not sure as to when to add the predators also, this fall or early next spring? If anyone can help with your thoughts and ideas I would appreciate it, Thanks......................Budster
Posted By: ewest Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/24/12 09:37 PM
Are you going to feed ? What about aeration ? How deep is the pond?
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/24/12 10:31 PM
I'll be watching this closely. My newest pond now has 2-4 inch redear sunfish, 3-4 inch hybrid bluegill, 4-5 inch channel cats, and a bunch of fatheads/rosy reds. This pond is intended as a put-and-take pond, mainly for kids and the elderly. It intentionally has no structure, except for some places for the fatheads to sneak into for a little love and bliss. It currently only has about 6-8 inches of visibility, due to the turbidity of building it (it is about 5 weeks old, and has been at full pool from week 2). I expect it will clear by spring with a 2-4 foot visibility. It has steep sides, so I don't expect a lot of weeds. If I do get some weeds, I'll add a few grass carp.

I'm not yet quite sure what to use as the predator to keep the hybrid bluegill offspring under control. I don't think the channel cats will be enough. I feel that LMB will be just too hard to manage.

I plan to put rainbow and golden trout into the pond for the cool season, and they may be enough to keep the number of offspring real low. I'm tending towards adding a small number of hybrid striped bass. I just don't want to add any largemouth bass. The RES are in there to keep the snail population down. If their offspring get eaten, I can always add more when I add hybrid bluegill each year.

Thanks,
Ken


Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/24/12 11:37 PM
George1 has experience with the CNBG-HSB combination in a smaller pond similar to yours. Hopefully he will share his insight on this. You might be somewhat behind in the stocking stratigy if usine HSB due to their reproduction getting a head start. Lets hear what George says.

Here is some background from George on the topic as your homework.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=132149
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96494
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=281600http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279603


George uses tipaia for algae control in this small pond.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185530
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 01:52 PM
Sorry I missed this post ….

A small ¼ acre pond can be a jewel in the rough following simple guidelines I have addressed before. I know the Eric is not a believer of “natural” ponds by his definition, but I put a twist on it … wink

The secret to controlling overpopulation of CNBG in a small pond is HSB predation and catfish in appropriate numbers, whether one BC or a few CC.

Our ¼ acre pond currently has NO aeration, occasional hand feeding, and I have NEVER have had a fish kill. We continue to catch a few trophy size CNBG and an occasional 4-5 lb HSB almost every trip. I keep thinking I have caught them all because haven’t restocked in about 3 years – BUT – I revive them in an O2 live well and just keep on catching them. They are not as fat as feed trained HSB but are the most fun fly rod fish to catch in a pond.

Bud, the only concern I would have for your small pond is that you are located in East Texas which is noted for acidic water and successful HSB programs in southern waters require high alkalinity – check your water quality - you probably know all about this stuff but may have to lime heavily but should be no problem in a small pond.

The only documented failure of HSB in small ponds in Southern waters that I am aware of was Meadowlark’s East Texas Piney Woods pond.

I would stock FHM first until they they are so thick the water turns black - then stock Overton's HSB abd pure Florida CNBG in numbers he recommends.

Good luck on your pond – small ponds are fun!
George

Picture below is HSB caught a couple of weeks ago – they don’t grow as large as James, Nate’s or Cason’s big ponds but mine are better ‘cause I catch mine on a fly rod …. :>)
Pardon my big hands ... grin



Posted By: ewest Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 03:27 PM
Thanks George. BTW our ponds are natural. Only have very limited supp. feeding.
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: budster
My Pond was re-constructed after drying out last summer in the drought. It is doing well, full and "happy". In early March I stocked 200 1-3" CNBG, 100 3-6" CNBG, 100 3-6" RSF, and 5 #'s of FHM, and I have been feeding lightly since April. The Pond is only 1/2 acre, and while I know I need to add some predators at some point, I am reluctant to use LMB as my Goal is to raise good size eating CNBG's, not LMB. It seems to me that the HSB would be a good choice for this purpose as they will not propagate, but the question I have is how many to stock? Adding enough to control CNBG population without wiping them out. I guess I'm not sure as to when to add the predators also, this fall or early next spring? If anyone can help with your thoughts and ideas I would appreciate it, Thanks......................Budster

Bud, I missed your existing stocking rates and time to stock predators.
You should have a pond full of FHM and CNBG by fall – I would stock 100 6-8 inch HSB this fall if that is the route you have decided to go.
Also if you do the HSB thing, they may need BC help in controlling the CNBG by following year - watch size and numbers of 8-9 inch CNBG which you should have by next spring.
George
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 05:25 PM
Thanks for the info. George 1.

I thought my stocking schedule was about right, I just didn't when the CNBG population would have grown to the right numbers. I am a little surprised by the number of HSB you recomend, 100 seems like a lot for a 1/2 acre pond, but that's why I asked for help, because I was not sure. If i continue to feed the CNBG's will the HSB eventually start eating pellets or will they prefer the CNBG's if they are in big enough numbers? The pond is only about 6' deep at the deepest, probably 4' deep on average, and I surface aerate 24/7, and top off with well water. The pond tends to be low alkalinity, but have the opportunity to lime with liquid lime soon. I will add a small amount of lime to start and go at it slowly. Thanks again for in-put george I appreciate it.....................Budster
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 05:54 PM
Budster, I would feed the CNBG on the heavy side, until or if they slow down with hot weather ...... then slow down and stop feeding when HSB become acclimated.
Get the HSB on natural forage as soon as possible.
I love to throw in a handful of feed to see the commotion.
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 06:02 PM
George:

If I continue to feed after the HSB are in and acclimated, will they start to feed on the pellets along with the CNBG or will they be satisfied with predating on the CNBG's.

Thanks again......................Budster
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 06:32 PM
George,

Have you found a correlation between the size of HSB and the size of the sunfish that they can consume?

Being as far north as I am, I can't grow CNBG, so I chose HBG, RES, and CC for our new 1/4 acre put-and-take pond. This pond is intended for underprivileged/handicapped kids and the elderly. The dam is built so that a large van with wheel chair lifts can easily offload and load passengers.

I feel I will need a top line predator to control the hybrid bluegill offspring, and I plan to replenish the HBG annually. I'm just not sure if 15-20 inch HSB will be capable of eating 3-4 inch HBG. I'm also thinking I will need to replenish my RES, and I usually can only get them in the 2-3 inch size. I'm not worried about the catfish, as I can usually get them in the 6-8 inch range, or larger. So far, I have not added a top line predator, and I really would like one that doesn't reproduce.

Also, I'm curious why you suggest getting the HSB on natural forage as soon as possible. I am currently, and was planning on, feeding the hybrid bluegill and channel cats to satiation every day. The new pond does have lots of sex crazed rosy reds and fatheads that are making babies pretty fast.

In my other pond, feeding the northern strain bluegill and catfish to satiation everyday means feeding the HSB too. The HSB certainly make a spectacular show when feeding.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: budster
George:

If I continue to feed after the HSB are in and acclimated, will they start to feed on the pellets along with the CNBG or will they be satisfied with predating on the CNBG's.

Thanks again......................Budster

Based on my experience, if acclimated on natural forage for longer period of time, they will prefer natural forage .
The first 100, 4-6 inch HSB stocked in new 1/4 acre pond full of FHM, never got feed trained.

IMO, I believe if you stock this year 4-6 inch HSB spawn early enough, your chances will improve over 8-10 inch HSB that have been on pellets for a longer period of time.
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/25/12 07:02 PM
Originally Posted By: catmandoo
George,

Have you found a correlation between the size of HSB and the size of the sunfish that they can consume?

Being as far north as I am, I can't grow CNBG, so I chose HBG, RES, and CC for our new 1/4 acre put-and-take pond. This pond is intended for underprivileged/handicapped kids and the elderly. The dam is built so that a large van with wheel chair lifts can easily offload and load passengers.

I feel I will need a top line predator to control the hybrid bluegill offspring, and I plan to replenish the HBG annually. I'm just not sure if 15-20 inch HSB will be capable of eating 3-4 inch HBG. I'm also thinking I will need to replenish my RES, and I usually can only get them in the 2-3 inch size. I'm not worried about the catfish, as I can usually get them in the 6-8 inch range, or larger. So far, I have not added a top line predator, and I really would like one that doesn't reproduce.

Also, I'm curious why you suggest getting the HSB on natural forage as soon as possible. I am currently, and was planning on, feeding the hybrid bluegill and channel cats to satiation every day. The new pond does have lots of sex crazed rosy reds and fatheads that are making babies pretty fast.


In my other pond, feeding the northern strain bluegill and catfish to satiation everyday means feeding the HSB too. The HSB certainly make a spectacular show when feeding.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken

Ken, I am unable to make a correlation because when BG get too large for HSB, my lone BC takes over, leaving me trophy CNBG.

As I mentioned to Budster, my first stocking of 4-6 inch HSB into a new ¼ acre pond full of FHM, NEVER got on pellets!
I thought they were all dead until my son said he was catching them on small spinner baits . I tried it and caught 16 fat HSB in a row to move to main pond. Caught many others from at the time brood pond.

Regards,
George
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/26/12 01:03 AM
I think George's heavy stocking rate in the small pond results in strong predation pressure on the small BG which is necessary to minimize over population of BG.

In Catmandoo's situation since you are using HBG the numbers of HSb should or would not need to be as high as George's example. IMO HSB will definately consume sunfish that are appropriate to the HSB mouth size. It will take a pretty large HSB (18"+?) to routinely eat a 4" sunfish.
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 06/26/12 11:17 AM
Bill, in light of Budster's "Goal is to raise good size eating CNBG's", another reason for the high HSB stocking rate is that he is going to discover how much fun they are to catch and better table fare than BG .. IMO ... grin

After initial stocking, numbers should be replaced annually to replace those taken for the table and C&R morts.
Posted By: george1 Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/26/12 11:51 AM
Budster, as mentined before, critical hardness and alkalinity levels are required for a sucessful HSB program.
Consult with a fisheries biologist before you "pull the trigger" on HSB stocking.

I don't want to be drug through the mud for another East Texas HSB failure.
George
Posted By: budster Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/26/12 12:46 PM

george:

Thanks for the "heads-up". I will be sure to pay critical attention to Alkalinity. My pastures are regularly tested and limed for Horse Hay production so the ability to control Alkalinity in the pond is at hand. We use liquid lime so spraying into the Pond around the perimeter is fairly easy and effective, the accurate testing for Ph, in the Pond, is not so easy.

Thanks again.................Budster
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 11:14 AM
Budster, careful need to distinguish between alkalinity and hardness. Total hardness, which is concentration of minerals such as calcium and magnesium in freshwater, needs to be at least 20ppm for HSB stocking. Alkalinity is buffering capacity, measured in concentration of carbonate and bicarbonates, also needs to be at least 20ppm for good results also IMO.

I support George's recommendation of 100 HSBs in 1/2 acre. This provides enough fish for CNBG pressure and allows room for you to remove slow growers and buffer for you to lose some fish to natural causes over time.

I am not a fan of the liquid lime used in ponds. I took chemistry and all in college, but still need someone to explain how tons of crude calcium carbonate (lime) can somehow be equal in effectiveness to a small number of gallons of liquid lime. Crude powdered ag lime can raise hardness also, but I would have very little faith in using liquid lime to raise hardness.

I have some HSBs in my aquarium that avg about 1 lb in size that will easily gulp a 3" bluegill. HSBs can have more potential impact on bluegill populations than many realize.
Posted By: budster Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 02:54 PM
Thanks Todd:

The hardness of the Pond is 54ppm at last check. I top off with well water that tests at 188 ppm Hardness out of the ground. The well water is typically high in iron for wells in East Texas, it tested at 1.6, high but not too high to be a problem.

I have not been able to test the Alkalinity, however it is probably low due to the swings in Ph from AM to PM, 7.2 to 9.0 on a hot sunny day. As you know most East Texas soil is on the acidic side so some type of lime treatment will be necessary, however, I will have it tested first to be sure.

I'm not sure how to explain the properties of liquid lime other than to say the stuff is extremely heavy. It requires a "mongo" size pump
on the spray rig to survive pushing that stuff out. My neighbor cuts and bails 550 acres around me, and swears by it, has used it for years with good results. That's about all I can say, sure makes it easier to lime a pond, spraying it 30' into the water instead of spreading from a small boat, (load and shovel, load and shovel,etc.).

Thanks again, I'll see you guys in September..............Budster
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 07:01 PM
Been measuring BG size vs HSB gape capability. At first glace it doesn't appear possible for a 18" HSB to manage anything beyond a 3" BG. However, through angling experiments I am already up to 4.5" with 18" HSB and will continue to increase the sizes to try and determine their gape limits. Not sure the top end yet, and it seems to defy what one can discern at first glance of the appearance of HSB limited gape. Hard for me to believe - but have proof positive at the end of my line.

Despite my heavy stocking of HSB in my fishery, why then do the BG population appear to continue to expand and stunt? I think my heavy feeding program helps take pressure off the BG - it has to. If not driven by hunger will a HSB hunt the shallows/vegetation for BG when there are defenseless floating cheeseburgers available?

While I agree HSB will rely on BG as forage, and also agree they can manage larger BG than appears possible, I also think an aggressive feeding program takes significant pressure off the BG population as forage items as other's suggest here.

If you want HSB to manage your BG population, limit or eliminate your pellet program and rely on aquatic invertabrates to grow your BG. I support that recommendation mentioned here by other HSB veterans...I just don't have the guts to stop the feeding...but I should, and measure the impact on my BG population.
Posted By: george1 Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 07:32 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
.....................................................................
If you want HSB to manage your BG population, limit or eliminate your pellet program and rely on aquatic invertabrates to grow your BG. That's my recommendation. I just don't have the guts to stop the feeding...but I should, and measure the impact on my BG population.

Agreed!

TJ, if you want to get your HSB on natural forage you have to stop feeding for some time, depending upon size of stockers. With no large predators and good FHM/BG forage base, stock fingerling HSB - they may never get on pellets.
Large HSB stockers are harder to forage train.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 08:31 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57

If you want HSB to manage your BG population, limit or eliminate your pellet program and rely on aquatic invertabrates to grow your BG. That's my recommendation. I just don't have the guts to stop the feeding...but I should, and measure the impact on my BG population.


And therein lies the rub. At least where growing trophy BG is concerned. I understand your hesitation regarding suspending your feeding program, TJ... I sure wouldn't be in favor of it in my ponds.

I'm beginning to see artificial feeding in a different light. Keeping in mind that I'm referring to HBG, not native BG. I once considered pellet feeding as a supplemental source, with natural forage comprising the majority of my fish's diet. Now I see it the other way around, with artificial feed being the primary source, and natural forage being supplemental. Having a natural forage source would be great, but I think it carries with it an unacceptable risk...that being the neccessity of providing cover for the forage itself, if there is to be any chance of it becoming self-sustaining. That same cover can also be utilized by yoy fish, and when it comes to HBG, or even BG, I don't consider that a good thing, especially in a small pond.

I use LMB to control both my BG and my HBG, because they are cheap and plentiful. In three years of management over the HBG pond, I have yet to see any recruitment from either HBG, or LMB. I'm sure there must be some of both, but their numbers are evidently so small as to not be cause for concern. They don't show up in traps, or by angling.

I'm cautiously wondering if I have struck a balance of a different sort, in which the population is not self-sustaining, but rather self-limiting. I'm hopeful, but only time will tell.
Posted By: esshup Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/27/12 10:01 PM
The majority of BG in my pond did NOT come from a hatchery, so they didn't learn to eat pellets at a young age. I still have very few BG eating pellets, even using a feeder. The majority of them are eating natural forage in the pond, and look it.

So, it might depend on where the fish came from too. The LMB in the pond are feed trained, and eat pellets, but they are really hammering the natural forage. I purposely overstocked the pond with BG last Fall, putting in somewhere around 2,000 3" stunted BG that were seined/trapped from another pond. (I gave up counting them once I passed 1,500 fish) Very few survived the winter, and I still think my pond is BG light. I even fed the trout all winter long. The fishing rule is every LMB, no matter what the size is to be removed if it doesn't have a tag in it. There are 40 tagged LMB in the pond.
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 03:39 AM
Thanks big TJ.

I know what you're thinking George. The shocker boat may reveal some HSBs on CNBG forage in main pond and off pellets almost entirely .
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 04:00 AM
I think I mentioned this above -- but, whatever. This is a really interesting thread.

My newest pond, which is only a quarter acre, is planned as put-and-take. Primarily hybrid bluegill and channel cats. I added RES to keep down potential parasites. It also has a reproducing population of fatheads/rosy-reds.

I'm still at a loss for a top line predator for the HBG. I was planning on using HSB, but if, as Todd says, a 1 lb. HSB can gobble a 3 inch BG, then I'm not sure how I would keep a HBG population, since that is about the maximum size HBG I can buy locally. I was hoping to add small HBG and small CC each spring to supplement what has been taken out, but I still need something too keep the RES, HBG and CC recruitment from going out of control.

Do I just put in one small hungry LMB each springtime, and hopefully pull it out when after totally gorging itself on newly hatched fish?

Thanks,
Ken
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 04:39 AM
Agreed Ken this is good stuff here...lots of experts sharing their experiences with HSB as apex predators/panfish pop regulators is new science we all benefit from learning. Just another reason this forum is such a valuable resource for us all.

My take on your potential fishery -

It's my understanding HBG reproduction occurs, but 99% offspring are Male. I would think this would limit their reproduction capabilities significantly, and population. I don't have experience with HBG but hopefully someone can chime in on that thought.

Similarly, RES spawn typically 1x annually and females lay a fraction of the eggs of a BG - think I've read something like 8,000 vs 80,000 for BG - not to mention multiple BG spawns annually. Again, might suggest that RES population regulation won't become a management issue for you.

Not sure I know of many fisheries where CC are the only predator - with exception of Lusk's catfish pond that has high density CC and BG to help provide forage in addition to his feeding program. I'm assuming his CC keep the BG population in check, but have never directly inquired. The Boss needs to weigh in on this one.

You mention your CC will reproduce...that's another issue. I don't know if adult CC and HBG will keep YOY CC in check? If not, you seem to be needing an apex predator utilizing all species as forage, which was your original question. Seems introducing LMB will only create another species' population to control, unless you go with single sex fish. I'd go with males as their max size and gape are smaller than a female. You want small fish targeted, not your 8" RES or HBG - which a dozen 4-5# females would be liable to do. I imagine males in a .25 AC pond would max out around 2-2.5# and would be a better control method for smaller panfish and CC.

HSB could also serve this purpose, and are an easier control fish as you don't have to wait until Spring to identify gender as you would likely have to do with LMB. 12 HSB in that pond can be easily managed...too much predation you can harvest a few - not enough impact on panfish and CC you can stock a few more until the balance you desire is achieved.

In terms of stocking CC or HBG at small sizes - do you use grow out cages to release at end of season at a size less liable to be subject to predation?

Just my thoughts - sounds like a cool project. Were it my pond I'd go with the HSB as the panfish/cc equalizer. They are my favorite pond fish for many reasons.
Posted By: RC51 Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 12:42 PM
LMB or HSB? How about a little of both? My HSB I put in my pond in April seem to be doing quite well. When I catch one that is they look good. Some of them have already grown from 8 to 10 inches and are now pushing 12 inches. The last LMB I caught looked pretty nice also. Maybe just on the skinny side. I did not have a scale to determine for sure. I do feed my HSB AM500/600 along with my BG. So they may not eat as many BG as one would think when your feeding them on the side. At the 12 inch mark I am sure they could handle my 1 to 2 inch BG which is nice cause my bigger LMB dont really mess with them unless they have to. They are to dang hard to catch and not worth the trouble for a 1.5 to 2.5 pound bass or bigger. This is also why I keep some of my larger GSF. Yes they compete for food, but I have soooooooo many small things swiming around in my pond now it's unreal. My BG and CNBG have been on beds for 6 weeks straight now. I think some get done and others come right in and take over the beds. I mean it's a constant rotation sence I starting feeding them AM500. TJ is right the cool thing about the HSB is you can control them so much better. I put 30 in my pond. 15 of them were 6 to 8 inch and 15, 8 to 10 inch. I may have gone a little high for a 1 acre pond but I figured some of them may not make it. And if I end up not seeing to many fish all around my shore I know it's time I may need to start keeping a few of them. With bass it's very hard to determine what you have. Unless you can somehow get all females or males or like some out here use a very good tagging system for them. If you have 25 bass tagged and you catch a bass that is not tagged then you get rid of it. And even then your still guessing some as to what you have and dont have with bass. I know for a fact I have 30 or less HSB in my pond. It's never going to be more. That's the nice thing about HSB. I think some LMB are good to have though for the control of the medium sized BG. Yes some 18 inch HSB may eat a few 4 to 5 inch BG but your 18 inch LMB will eat many more I bet. This will better help you regulate your BG in that size range that no one really likes to catch anyway. That's just my 2 cents on what I have learned on these 2 very valuable fish in the last few months. So I by any means am no expert but I am learning fast and taking good notes! smile
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 02:35 PM
What if you consider the LMB a sacrificial entity, where their only role is as a management tool? I think it can be hard sometimes, to consider a fish in this light, but then again, look at the Grass Carp... their only role in a pond is to help with plant management.

Why then, can we not look at LMB the same way? Where their only purpose in a pond is to control recruitment of the other species present, as well as their own? Certainly, GC will not reproduce whereas LMB will, but maybe preventing reproduction is not the goal here, rather preventing recruitment will serve the same purpose?

I'm certainly not advocating that this plan will work in every pond, but in a pond built with this strategy in mind, no structure or cover, basically a bowl shape, and stocked with the appropriate species, in this case HBG and CC, would the LMB control recruitment of ALL species present? Including their own?

We know that CC and HBG will readily take to feed, so that would seem to leave the LMB few options:

1) Learn to eat artificial feed.
2) Devour every living thing in the pond that will fit in their mouths, including their own offspring.
3) A combination of 1 & 2.
4) Starve to death.

I see #3 occurring in the HBG pond where I'm at. After three years I still have no noticeable recruitment of either species. Maybe that means it's working, or maybe it's getting ready to blow up in my face, I don't know. So far I'm satisfied.

I have nothing against HSB, I have some in one pond and I'm looking forward to growing them out, It promises to be a lot of fun. I just don't want to limit myself to looking at a fish in the same way, or utilizing it in the same manner time after time. Once you remove the notion of having a typical, balanced pond, it may open up other avenues and other means of accomplishing one's goals, however untraditional those may be.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Heads up on Hybrid Stripers - 06/28/12 03:46 PM
When I rebuilt my pond several years ago I wanted a similar predator such as Catmandoo -Ken describes. I wanted a predator that did not get real large, would reproduce moderately and preyed primarily on just the smaller fish such as YOY yellow perch. My homework found a place that provided that fish, the Suwannee bass at Zetts Fish Farm Drifting PA. When I was ready to order they quit handling this fish. shocked crazy

There are subspecies of bass as primarily stream dwellers that stay smaller and will survive in ponds, max size in (): Guadalupe bass (record-3.6lb 18" see below), Redeye bass (10"-11" record 3 lb 2 oz), Shoal bass (6.0lb) and Suwannee bass (16.5", 3.5lb). Problem is no one raises any of them. This would be a small niche market for someone with an extra small pond or two and wanted to make a few dollars selling some of these speciality small predators. Greg Grimes???
See link for examples of these fish:

http://www.roughfish.com/~roughfis/group-clone/102

http://anglerslifelist.com/taxon/suwannee-bass

http://www.georgiariverfishing.com/GAarticles/WakullaSuwannees/WakullaSuwannees.htm

Guadalupe Bass

http://jacksonkayak.com/blog/2012/02/23/the-plight-of-the-guadalupe-bass/

http://www.bio.txstate.edu/~tbonner/txfishes/micropterus%20treculii.htm

http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/Texas/Fish_Guadalupe_Bass.html

Redeye Bass

http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=395
http://www.outdooralabama.com/fishing/freshwater/fish/bassblack/redeye/fishing.cfm

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/fish/species/redeyebass.html
http://www.outdooralabama.com/fishing/freshwater/fish/bassblack/redeye/

Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/20/12 03:40 PM
[quote=george1]Sorry I missed this post ….

A small ¼ acre pond can be a jewel in the rough following simple guidelines I have addressed before. I know the Eric is not a believer of “natural” ponds by his definition, but I put a twist on it … wink

The secret to controlling overpopulation of CNBG in a small pond is HSB predation and catfish in appropriate numbers, whether one BC or a few CC.

Our ¼ acre pond currently has NO aeration, occasional hand feeding, and I have NEVER have had a fish kill. We continue to catch a few trophy size CNBG and an occasional 4-5 lb HSB almost every trip. I keep thinking I have caught them all because haven’t restocked in about 3 years – BUT – I revive them in an O2 live well and just keep on catching them. They are not as fat as feed trained HSB but are the most fun fly rod fish to catch in a pond.

Bud, the only concern I would have for your small pond is that you are located in East Texas which is noted for acidic water and successful HSB programs in southern waters require high alkalinity – check your water quality - you probably know all about this stuff but may have to lime heavily but should be no problem in a small pond.

The only documented failure of HSB in small ponds in Southern waters that I am aware of was Meadowlark’s East Texas Piney Woods pond.

I would stock FHM first until they they are so thick the water turns black - then stock Overton's HSB abd pure Florida CNBG in numbers he recommends.

Good luck on your pond – small ponds are fun!
George [quote=george1]






George: Well, a summer has passed, 300+ CNBG's I stocked last March have turned into Ga-Zillions of fry and CNBG's of all sizes. I have watched my water closly all summer and it looks good. DO levels have stayed high, I limed it with 1/2t of pellets last month and my Alk. is at 125, and hardness at 190+, I have good vegitation growth and have maintained a moderate alge bloom all summer...........So last week I stocked 50 4"-5" HSB from Todd's Overton Fisheries, I have not added a BC or any CC yet, I would like to Keep the pond as is if possible, I guess we'll see how well the CNBG population is controlled by my new neighbors!........Bud

Maybe 50 more next spring?


Posted By: John Wann Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/20/12 08:12 PM
Would small mouth control the BG and F1s?
Posted By: John Wann Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/20/12 08:41 PM
Is there anyway to sex LMB and only put females in pond? Anybody tried this?
Posted By: Rainman Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/20/12 09:12 PM
smallies won't control BG at all...even less likely they'd control the more aggresseive F-1

In Missouri, I am not sure an F-1 will be much different that a northern bass.
Posted By: esshup Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/20/12 11:14 PM
The only way to correctly sex LMB is during the spawn. Same other answer as Rainman.
Posted By: ewest Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/22/12 01:38 AM
See this on sexing LMB http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=103583&fpart=1.
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/22/12 12:50 PM
Well, a summer has passed, 300+ CNBG's I stocked last March have turned into Ga-Zillions of fry and CNBG's of all sizes. I have watched my water closly all summer and it looks good. DO levels have stayed high, I limed it with 1/2t of pellets last month and my Alk. is at 125, and hardness at 190+, I have good vegitation growth and have maintained a moderate alge bloom all summer...........So last week I stocked 50 4"-5" HSB from Todd's Overton Fisheries, I have not added a BC or any CC yet, I would like to Keep the pond as is if possible, I guess we'll see how well the CNBG population is controlled by my new neighbors! Any bets?...............Bud

Maybe 50 more next spring?
Posted By: fish n chips Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/22/12 02:45 PM
Are you feeding the CNBG at this time. If not, are you planning to in the future. I would guess that by not feeding, the HSB will eat more CNBG. Whats your thoughts and plans on this?
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/22/12 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Are you feeding the CNBG at this time. If not, are you planning to in the future. I would guess that by not feeding, the HSB will eat more CNBG. Whats your thoughts and plans on this?



Well here's the plan, only with the cooperation of the HSB's of course! I have been feeding the CNBG since I stocked them in March of 012. They are definately pellet dependent, both in habit and necessity based on sheer numbers that have developed over the summer. I plan to continue feeding with the hope that the HSB's, because they are very young (4-5") and not necessarily pellet dependent yet, will develop a preference for forage over pellets, that is the reason I waited till fall to stock, and purchased the youngest stock possible, so there would be ample CNBG frye and small CNBG, for the HSB to "train" on, so to speak. In addition I have a large population of FHM for forage. I think it is logical to assume a hungry fish would prefer natural forage to pellets, so if this is true the challenge is to provide enough natural forage to keep the predators off the pellets. Are there enough predators to control the forage population? that's another challenge, determining the right number of HSB's for balance, but that's why I chose HSB's, they provide easy population control.

Well, that's the plan, how good a one is yet to be seen, but I'm having a ball trying! Now it's time to shoot holes in my plan, so let's hear from ya'll...............Budster
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/23/12 12:38 AM
All HSB from hatcheries are raised on pellets. The larger the HSB from a hatchery the more habituated they are to pellets.
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/23/12 04:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
All HSB from hatcheries are raised on pellets. The larger the HSB from a hatchery the more habituated they are to pellets.


Bill: Exactly my point, I stocked with the youngest HSB possible, and have tried to offer the most desirable forage to increase the chance of these HSB's prefer forage over pellets. If it makes any difference, Todd thinks the plan has a chance with the right number of HSB's...................Budster
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/23/12 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: budster
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
All HSB from hatcheries are raised on pellets. The larger the HSB from a hatchery the more habituated they are to pellets.


Bill: Exactly my point, I stocked with the youngest HSB possible, and have tried to offer the most desirable forage to increase the chance of these HSB's prefer forage over pellets. If it makes any difference, Todd thinks the plan has a chance with the right number of HSB's...................Budster

Bud, I believe you are on the right track with your stocking program and especially liming your E. Texas pond. With abundant forage and smaller size HSB, my experience says they will become forage trained.
See link: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...8&site_id=1

Because of my experience of feeding my expensive 4-6 inch HSB to adult LMB, we built a ¼ acre “grow-out pond” in the spring and stocked with FH, CNBG, and RES. The following spring the water was black with FHM and CNBG when we stocked fingerling HSB - they NEVER became pellet trained - thought they were all dead until fall and this what we began to catch!

Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 02:00 PM
Originally Posted By: george1
Because of my experience of feeding my expensive 4-6 inch HSB to adult LMB, we built a ¼ acre “grow-out pond” in the spring and stocked with FH, CNBG, and RES. The following spring the water was black with FHM and CNBG when we stocked fingerling HSB - they NEVER became pellet trained - thought they were all dead until fall and this what we began to catch!



George: I can only hope! At least I have hope, coming from a Pondster like yourself, with all your experience with HSB's, I feel like I have a chance! Thanks

I just finished reading through the link you provided about this subject. I got a real feel for what you have discovered through the years, sure helps a newbee like me shave off some trial and error from my "resume'". Thanks again, with help from the likes of you and Todd my fish will be winners! and so will my Dinner Table!.................Budster
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 03:09 PM
George1:

In reading through your Thread "Hybrid Stripers" it became evident that the most critical time of the year for HSB is the middle of summer, when water temps. can go 90+ degrees F here in E. Texas. Bruces's chart of temps. show any thing over 80F, causing high stress, and probable mortality in catch and release situations. I wonder if it is possible to cool, to a degree that would be effective, a 1/2 acre pond. I have plumbed my well to my pond, have installed a spray nozzle on the up-right, and I use it to top-off the Pond. I have generally done this at night, for about 10-12 hrs., as my Well pumps 1200g an hour, or about 12k-14k gal. during the night. I have used this proceedure about every other night to replace evaporated water, and introduce some freshly oxygenated H2O. When it rains of course I have to stop topping-off, but when the weather is at it's hottest here in Texas, we have very little rain. My question would be, if I used this practice during the heat of the day, would 10K gals. of cool water be effective in cooling down a 1/2 acre Pond. The water is being pumped from 330 ft., so it's temp., even in the summer, is very cool, around 68F to 70F.. Could this practice minimize the stress levels experienced by HSB in very warm water, or would this introduction of cool water, that amounts to approx. 1% of the total water volume, be too little to be effective? I guess the drawback is obvious, I would be limited to an amount of water equal only to the rate of evaporation as I have no reasonable means of continuous out-flow, and would that amount (approx. 6k-7k gal. day) be adequate to approach desired effect.

I will stop rambling on now and wait to hear your and others opinions of this approach, surely some one out there has tried something similiar, and I'd bet you have too................Budster
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 03:29 PM
Bud, Todd utilizes deep well water for his tilapia program and other purposes - he can help you for answers to your questions.
Biggest risk for summer heat in my experience is low water and too many fish .... wish I had a deep well .... grin
Keep us up to date with reports and pictures.
HSB rule coolgood luck!!!
George
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 04:05 PM
Budster why don't you throw 5-10 or so in next year and see if they survive through the summer, if they do you'll have a bonus bigger class and you know they'll survive through them specific conditions..
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Budster why don't you throw 5-10 or so in next year and see if they survive through the summer, if they do you'll have a bonus bigger class and you know they'll survive through them specific conditions..

BGK- no need to experiment:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...8&site_id=1
smile

My experience for HSB to control CNBG over population - stock minimum 100 HSB for Bud's 1/2 acre pond - create "stocking ladder" following fall to replace morts.
Add adult female LMB 3rd year if necessary.

Never had a fish kill in un-aerated 1/4 acre pond in 8 years - grown some really nice HSB... cool
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Budster why don't you throw 5-10 or so in next year and see if they survive through the summer, if they do you'll have a bonus bigger class and you know they'll survive through them specific conditions..


Bluegillkiller: I stocked 50 4-5"ers last week. They have a full season CNBG spawn for forage, I think they're happy, at least till next summer when "the heat is on". As I understand it, they will survive the heat, however, catch and release under that stress takes a toll. I guess I will have a Bonus Bigger Class, instead of 10 I'll have 50. Thanks for your interest....................Budster
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: george1
BGK- no need to experiment:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.phpubb=showflat&Forum=5&topic=000199&ngNumber=8&site_id=1:)

My experience for HSB to control CNBG over population - stock minimum 100 HSB for Bud's 1/2 acre pond - create "stocking ladder" following fall to replace morts.
Add adult female LMB 3rd year if necessary.

Never had a fish kill in un-aerated 1/4 acre pond in 8 years - grown some really nice HSB... cool



George1:

I guess I'm half way there, have considered adding 50 more next spring, maybe a good idea!

Budster
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/24/12 09:59 PM
Cool.. I caught 2 fat HSB today there definatley slowing down in my pond.. Feed has been off since the 1st..
Posted By: overtonfisheries Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/26/12 02:29 PM
One of the nations largest Hybrid Striper Farms is Silver Streak, located near El Campo, TX on the gulf coast. Summertime elevated water temps this far south are surely stressful on HSB, but they overcome this with substantial surface aeration with paddlewheels. Cooling pond water with well water is not efficient IMO, but is a nice secondary benefit to keeping your pond full in the summer. Adequate surface aeration is the most important key to HSB survival through the heat of the summer. We deal a line of Kasco surface aerators that are perfect for this.
Posted By: george1 Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/26/12 02:57 PM
I added Kasco surface aerator after a partial fsih kill last summer - ran 24/7 - may turn it off this weekend with this cold front. No more fish kills for me.



I am a belt and suspenders guy.. grin



IMO, overcrowding causes more problems than our Texas heat - our 2 acre pond shrank to 1 acre and too many fish and not enough water - I push the evelope on numbers of HSB.

Never had a fish kill in 1/4 acre with NO aeration but control numbers to prevent overcrowding.
Posted By: esshup Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/26/12 03:02 PM
The trout farm that I get my trout from has ponds that are lined, are shallow, and are about 1/10 to 2/10 ac each. They have at least one Kasco going in each pond all year long.

He does have to clean them 2x day during the Fall due to leaves clogging them. He has a rope tied to the shore from the aerator going to both sides of the pond. He just yanks the Kasco back and forth a few times to shake the leaves off of it. No going into the water.
Posted By: budster Re: Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers - 10/26/12 07:28 PM
Well I guess I'll have the best of both worlds. I've got to top off with well water to keep volume at max., and in turn it will cool a little also. I definately areate also, have been running a 4500gph fountain all summer, it seems to do a good job, but a little pricey (6.3A at 120V). I received my DO2 meter in the mail yesterday, no more guessing on next summer's hot days. If 5.0 is the absolute min. for DO2, what is a good level on a hot summer day? Anything over 5.0 I guess! Just wonderin'........................Budster
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