There are three of them in the bucket. Can you spot them among the empty midge casings? They are smaller than the empty midge casings. Hint one of them is two o'clock a few inches from the tadpole. There is another one at eleven o'clock near the edge of the bucket. I think the third and smallest one is in the center of the bucket.


A closer look, that is a an empty midge casing floating at the top of the glass for scale.


An even closer look. Fathead minnow fry? Golden Shiner Fry? Something else?

Good photos, looks like FHM fry to me.

I'm thinking fathead minnow as well, the fish in my picture is somewhere around 9-10MM long. I will say at that size it would be hard to say for sure even with a picture. Golden shiner fry are very similar and I do have a small number of them in the pond.

I did find this:


http://www.fishbabies.ca/waterbabies/wbabies4.html

99.9% certain those are Muskie YOY. Congrats Steve!

I went and caught two more yesterday, the smaller less developed one is 7-8mm, the larger more developed one is 12-13mm. I released both of into my SMB tank last night.

Looking more like paddlefish yoy today. Sorry for the missed id!

I think the larger fish is a GSH late fry because it appears to have a concave margin on the anal fin which becomes visible at about 14mm. the FHM anal fin at 13-14mm is shaped more rounded. By the way: very good pictures.

There are thousands fry of the in the pond right now, even a few larger ones that might be more definative as to what they actually are. I will see if I can catch a bigger one and post a few more pictures.

I put in three dozen GSH last June that were 2" to 2-1/2" along with 5 dozen fatheads that reproduced like mad. I wasn't sure any of them survived my alum treatment to clear the water last July (PH crash) but I did find one dead 5" GSH back in March. I also put in four gallons of fatheads at the begining of December a month after stocking 20 5-9" SMB.

Gosh, not a nibble on my efforts to stir up some dust?

Ok, ok - here are my true observations:

1. I can't ID the type of forage it is, but reproduction is a great sign for your fishery!

2. Those are remarkable photos...you need to teach me how to do that. What type of camera is being used?

I laughed at your fry identification.

The camera is a Sony Cybershot, 8.1 mega-pixal, its few years old. The best focal point is 12-16", from there I am editing and cropping the photos in MS Paint in order to enlarge the image.

Here is an original I took this morning.


The same image cropped in MS paint.

One other thing, take a lot of pictures that way you increase the odds of getting one or two good shots. I caught some larger fry but had a hard time getting a clear good picture of the fins.

TJ, here are a few more examples of the larger fry I caught late this morning.










This one kind of shows the fins.

Those look more like GSH to me than small FHM. A FHM will have a more slender body shape than those in the last picture. Note you may have both species of YOY in the pond.

Yeah, those recent photos appear to be GSH fry. No doubt you have both species of fry in your pond...

Any implications for my pond? Am I predator light in my 1/4 acre pond? I have freshly hatched fry everywhere. I also have flooded smart-weed and grass that the fry can hide in.

Here is what I have stocked so far:

June 2011: 3 dozen GSH, 5 dozen FHM

Mid July 2011: Alum treatment to clear the water and hydrated lyme to bring the PH back up. I had minnows trying to get out of the water when the PH crashed.

Late October 2011: 20 5-9" SMB (mostly 5", one 9")

Early December 2011: 110 4-6" RES and 4 gallons of small to medium sized minnows.
Note: I had to break 1" of ice to these stock fish, I'm not sure if the RES succumbed to a fish fungus or not due to the cold water temps. Never saw any RES floaters but I have tons of snails and fingernail clams for them to eat. I did see quite a few FHM floaters at the end of December with fungus infections.

March/April/May 2012: 11 2-5" YP & 30 4-6" YP (41 YP total), 28 2-3" RES and three 2" SMB

I do have 72 SMB that I am currently pellet training, they are now 3-5" long. Should I stock them sooner rather than later? I was planning to set them loose in about 4 weeks and was hoping to have them close 6" before they putting them in the pond. With this many fry in the pond I think they are going to ignore pellets for a while. I am wondering if I could end up with too many GSH down the road?

72 SMB seems like a lot for a 1/4 acre pond to me. But I am not a smallmouth expert.

Thus the pellet training program.

Ahhh. I guess I missed that. Makes it justifiable.

1. I think you're fine stocking whenever you want, due to lack of predators. It's up to you, but I'd do sooner than later with more friendly water/air temps=less stress.

2. You will have a big population of GSH, this I can safely predict as my HSB and SMB can't keep my population down. This is not a bad thing - since you don't have BG fishery they fill their niche and will keep the SMB healthy with plenty of forage options in addition to crayfish and pellets. You're likely to experience schools of GSH that hammer pellets and make it difficult for the SMB to keep up, but I find my SMB are focusing as much on the smaller GSH taking pellets as they are to the pellets themselves. An adult GSH can take AM 600, but the LM pellet is obviously beyond their gape. As soon as your SMB make that 12" mark they can start taking hydrated AM LM pellets, and soon thereafter dry pellets with no competition and it's then that they really start improving WR.

3. Your stocking rates are heavy on the SMB, but with abundant forage from GSH and pellet program you may be okay. Might need to cull a few fish that don't take off, but that's no big deal. I see a population of 35-40 15" fish in a .25 AC bow a reasonable goal, maybe more.

4. If you are not seeing the RES you want to, I have a local source for free RES. Guy wanted BG stocked, the fish truck was out of everything but RES, and five years later he has quite an established population. No more buying RES for me!

I wouldn't mind a few more RES just for insurance purposes. I suspect most of the ones I got in December didn't make it. I know the ones I held back in late March (weren't sure if they were BG or RES) all but one died from fungus infections in my tank when the water temps were still in the mid 50's. A few locally sourced RES would be great.

Quick question. I am seeing another recent large hatch of GSH/FHM fry all over my pond right now. Is this normal after the hot water temps we had? Is a GSH spawn tied to the moon phases?

Good question, not sure if GSH spawn is in relation to the moon phases or not... I do not have any GSH stocked in my pond yet, but my RRFHM and FHM have been spawning like crazy the last week or so.

Golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas) egg production and effects of water temperature, lunar phase, and weather on spawning
by Clemment, Troy, M.S., UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS AT PINE BLUFF, 2003, 65 pages; EP25754
Abstract:

This study was done to determine the number of eggs produced by golden shiners (Notemigonus crysoleucas) over the spawning season and the relationship of daily egg production to environmental variables. Eight, 5.9 m2 plastic-lined pools were each stocked 15 March, 2000 with 50 golden shiners, 9.2 ± 3.7 g (mean ± SD) in body weight each. Fish were fed once daily at 5% body weight with a 40% protein, 9% fat, extruded (pelleted) feed. A spawning substrate was placed in four randomly selected pools, while mats were not placed in the remaining four pools. For a 111-day period (16 March–4 July), spawning mats were collected daily and replaced with clean ones. Eggs were removed in a 1.5% sodium sulfite bath and the total volume of eggs from each pool was recorded. The mean number of eggs per mL, based on counts of 27, 2-mL samples, was 704 (SD = 109). Spawning commenced within a day of stocking at mean water temperature of 15°C and continued until the daily temperature averaged 30°C. The number of eggs collected daily from individual pools ranged from 0 to 33,792 with season-long averages of 4,986 to 7,284 per day. There were only 4 days when no eggs were collected. The number of days separating peak spawning events varied throughout the season. In some cases high numbers of eggs were produced 2 or 3 days in a row. Egg production peaked in May, when an average of 14,339 eggs were collected daily per kg of golden shiners. The mean number of eggs collected daily increased with water temperature up to a peak at 22°C, then decreased as water temperature continued to increase. Approximately 2.75 million eggs were produced over the 111-day period by 2.4 kg of fish (mean of stocking and harvest weight). Egg production was not correlated with lunar phase, barometric pressure, and rainfall. Fish growth, condition, and gonadosomic index did not differ significantly between fish held with and without spawning substrate.

I figured the GSH would quit spawning once the water temps got hot, I remember reading about it. We did have three to four weeks of one hundred degree plus days, I am sure the water temps were in the upper 80's to low 90's during that time. Once the hot weather hit I did not see any newly hatched fry around my pond during that time, I figured the Gshiners were probably done spawning for the summer.

Things have cooled down quite a bit in the last two weeks and now I am seeing freshly hatched fry everywhere again. Do GSH start spawning again once the water cools?

See ewest's post here: Golden Shiners

Thanks Eric!

Water temps are controlling factor assuming good fish condition. When water temps reach 68F +- they start - stop or greatly reduce at 81 F+- and start back when water cools below 81 but above 68 but later spawn is a lesser one. Note the study stopped in July and did not cover the cool down period.

I wonder how much success GSH born in August and Sept have in colder climates where winters can be harsh. I would think small GSH would struggle to survive a winter.

Entirely likely. That is a big factor for most species up north. They starve to death - not as much food/shorter growing season plus they use up more reserves due to the cold. Shorty can let us know next spring.

I should be predator heavy going into winter, even if we have a mild winter I doubt many of the late summer hatch GSH survive. The same will likely be true of the early hatched GSH, the survival percentage for most YOY fish is pretty low. At the moment I still have a ton of 1-2" GSH/FHM everywhere.

I have seen late hatch BG fry survive winters here at my dad's old pond, I won't be suprised to see a few small GSH at ice out but won't expect to see many.

Shorty,

I always wonder what the reasoning is behind such a small pond? I'm not trying to be rude or anything, just genuinely curious.

Why not? To have a pond or not have a pond is the question.

The pond I stocked is an old existing cattle watering hole that I had the silt dug out of. Making it bigger would have required moving the dam down the hill and I did not think moving the existing dam was worth the extra costs and the water shed that feeds it wouldn't be large enough to keep a larger pond full. You can grow some nice fish in a small BOW, just look at what Cecil has done. IMO a small pond is much easier to manage than a large one, my dad's old pond was 9.9 acres and was a lot of work. I do like feeding and watching the fish plus all of the others stuff that comes with a pond. I do have two other potential pond sites on my place but that will be a few years down the road.

gwa, here's my take on the small ponds. I've got one biggie, and 3 small(1/3 acre or less) ponds.

Here's some of my non-professional personal opinions:

1) Small ponds are so much easier to manage time and money wise.
2) Results can be seen much easier.
3) Chemical and fish cost is far more manageable. One gallon each of SHORE-KLEAR and Cutrine Plus will manage all 3 small ponds for a year.
4) Big water can make many preferable options undoable. Whitecap for 15 acres? I can't pull the trigger on that, but a backpack sprayer can handle my small ponds relatively cheaply.
5) Start up cost is greatly reduced, because Caterpillar time is $$$.
6) Small ponds are Koi ponds for big boys(IMHO). They're tranquil, beautiful to look at, and very kid friendly.

These are just a few reasons I get the small pond attraction. When I started all this, I just wanted enough shoreline to keep the fences up, but have changed my opinion since then. I almost wish I had more small ponds instead of the one big one.

As we speak, I'm almost at the point of letting the big lake self manage, and devote all my time to the smaller ones.

Big water is great and lot's of fun, but damn they can be expensive and time consuming. Especially here in TX where we now seem to have a 10 month weed growing season.

Just my opinion.

Al, as many big water fishermen know, you have to spend a lot of time finding fish.....we KNOW where they are in our small ponds...

George you're absolutely correct, and big water fish are very inconsiderate. They'll move after searching for and finding them.

Hey the extended growing season was good for first year of our newest pond allowing the BG to reprdouce a lot

I caught my first GSH on hook & line yesterday. Could this be an early hatch GSH from last spring?



I still have a lot of GSH in the 1-1/2" range swiming around the edge of the weed line. I assume these are last summers late hatch from August.

Steve whats the size - 4-6"? If so I think it could be an early summer spawn age 1 GSH. Looks SMBlicious.

This one was right around 6". I am also seeing a few 3-4" GSH but mostly schools of 1-1/2" GSH. I am pretty sure that these are last summers late hatch GSH, they were right around 1" going into winter at ice up.

Last year at ice out I found one dead 5-6" GSH which I assume was one of the original 3 dozen GSH I had stocked in June of 2011.

I think the 6" GSH was probably one of the hatchlings from original stockers of June 2011.

Bill, any idea when GSH sexually mature? Here are a few pictures from my June 4th 2011 stocking, I had two morts. Could they have pulled off a spawn late summer 2011?





I am surprised how much the water clarity has changed since the GSH were stocked. It's almost too clear now.

That 6" GSH was likely one of the original stocked broodfish. In WI and MN a 6" GSH is near 5 yrs old. GSH in upper to middle Mississippi Rv are 4 yrs old at 6". Golden shiners will spawn during the temperature range of 68-80F so you could have easily had hatches in summer of 2011 which are likely 4"-5" long this year as two year olds. GSH in southern states can spawn at 7 months old but most spawn at 12-14 months old.

Thanks Bill! I am just puzzled, the one I caught yesterday wasn't much bigger than the dead one I found at ice out last year, it was at least 5" or longer. We did have an early spring last year which gave us a longer than usual growing season in 2012.

On another odd note, I also caught one 6" YP, likely a male, and another YP that was 10-1/2" and very gravid. Those two were both the largest and smallst YP I have seen out of my pond so far.

Fish from the same year class will grow at different rates. Each spawn as slower growing runts and fast growing individuals with lots of ones in-between. Your perch a good evidence of the variance in growth rates even if they were from two different year classes.

Thanks Bill!

Any thought on whether these are GSH or FHM?

GSH?


FHM? (2 pictures, same fish)

I think you are correct. Top fish is a GSH and bottom 2 pics are of a FHM.

Thanks Bill!

I concur.

Late - but me too !

Did those fish come out of muddy water?

No on the muddy water, I did have them in a bucket overnight while my camera battery charged so I could take pictures. I caught them while raking a small patch FA and picked them up off the muddy wet bank the night before. I did mud it up a tad while raking. Why do you ask? What do you see in the picture?

The muddy picture above is from my June 2011 FHM and GSH stocking before my alum treatment. The water clarity at ice out this spring was 8-9ft. I have since added a small amount of pond dye to reduce the water clarity down to 3-4ft.

we have a few ponds that are muddy like that. Would GSH or FHM live in that type of water?

We are thinkg of adding a few pounds of each within a few weeks if they will make it and spawn.

Thanks

FHM would be fine and I think GSH would do OK as well. The muddy water picture was right after it filled in early June of 2011. At the time I stocked 5 dozen large FHM and 3 dozen GSH when it was still muddy. When I did my alum treatment 6 weeks later to clear the water I had small minnows everywhere.

I found a dead adult GSH floating today, it appears that something tried to eat it but couldn't quite get it down, it measured 6-3/4". I bet this was one of my original stockers.

I am starting to see a lot of fry, not sure what they are but there are a lot of them. My collection method was to use an old tea cup and simply dip the cup in the water. These could be anything but I am guessing GSH.



A closer view, there are 16 fry in this picture.



In a clear glass.



Any guesses?

I am saying GSH. They do not look like FHM fry and do look more like GSH fry to me. If there are no other species of Cyprinids in the pond, then GSH it would be.

My FHM have been thinned down quite a bit over the last year but there a few large FHM still present. I still have quite a few GSH from last summers late hatch that are now 1-1/4". I did notice that some of the slightly larger fry have a very faint black spot on the tip of the tail. Could some of these be SMB fry? I might be in trouble if they are but I still think they are GSH.

I have been looking for YP fry but have not seen any yet.

SMB fry when small are jet black. When they are about an inch to an inch and half they start to get more normal coloration but at that point, their tails become a distinct tricoloration.

Thanks CJ! I figure these are most likely GSH fry. I still have yet to see any YP or SMB fry in the pond. I do think some of my SMB have spawned in the last week or so.

It's where the black bass family gets their name. Their fry start out jet black, SMB, LMB, spotted, etc...

Does anyone have a good picture or description of what GSH eggs look like before they hatch?

A slightly opaque round sphere about 1 MM in size.