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SMB & HSB will co-habitate okay even at different sizes, plus with good or proper spawning substrate, the SMB will often successfully recruit with HSB present providing the HSB are not too abundant. Too abundant will be determined by habitat type and amount in each pond. HSB and LMB can co-habitate & thrive. The SMB will survive, but not do very well with the LMB even if both are stocked at the same size -small or large. It does not take very long for the LMB to always soon crowd out the smallies. To get the smallies to be present long term with LMB, smallies need to be restocked periodcally as larger individuals (8"-12").
Read these with confidence; as they were written from lots of testing and experience:

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/largemouth_smallmouth.html

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond...ul-Aug-2004.pdf

Initially I would start out with something along the lines of 45% SMB, 45% HSB, and 10% LMB.

Then get on a program (or raise your own) where you stock a handful of SMB and HSB every year.

Also if you want to help your smallies compete, feed them high protein pellets. Native SMB will take to pellets much faster than native LMB.

What happens is the LMB will take the prime feeding areas in the pond and in a pond there arent too many of them to begin with. By supplementally feeding the SMB pellets you give the upper hand back to them!

Will SMB survive and reproduce in a 1/3 acre central Indiana pond without feeding. If so, what type of forage fish should be stocked and when. I am planning a pond that might end up this small but I have not surveyed the area yet. I will try to at least have one 12' hole. I already have a BG, LMB, CC pond.

RAH, here is a thread from the archives which may be of some use.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...ite_id=1#import

And another. Good SMB discussions from the Archives,

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=103428#Post103428

RAH - This is a portion of my post from the link that JamesB provided above. ""After working with them (SMB) for over 20 years, SMB should do fine in your pond, and if you have a patch of pea gravel and or larger gravel(1"-2") (in 2-4ft of water) they will very likely spawn especially if crayfish from the creek invade the pond. Crayfish are impt but not necessary for successful SMB spawning.""
This assumes that LMB are not present in the pond with the smallies. I've never seen smallies spawn in a pond when LMB were present.

A depth of 12' is deep enough for SMB in your pond. I've had them spawn in a pond just 7' deep. Water quality (no low DO) is more important for SMB than depth and cool water. SMB will easily tolerate water 90F. For several indepth articles about raising SMB in smaller midwest ponds see the link for copies of my 5 articles about SMB that were published in Pond Boss magazine.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/growing-smallmouth.html

Ditto with everything Bill said and posted links too.

Just to put it out there from experience, I've had feed trained smallies with largemouths in a .62 acre pond with just a little rip rap on one side of the pond.

My observations were:

1.) Virtually no reproduction of smallmouth although I did find one fingerling that was not stocked when I drained the pond.

2.) The largemouth were more aggressive and crowded out the smallies at feeding time.

3.) I did get good growth on the feed trained smallies I planted although I was not able to tell how much they fed on pellets.


And I put smallies in a floating cage to get them up to size before planting them into the pond, or they would have become expensive largemouth forage.

Since draining the pond I have eliminated the green carp (largemouths) and started over with just feed trained smallies, mostly female yellow perch, and mostly male bluegills. The smallies are doing well and show up at feeding time now. They totally wiped out the thousands of fathead minnows that were in the pond before I planted them.

Thanks guys. The pond is not yet built, so there is no problem stocking what I want. There is also no chance of fish accedentally getting in the pond from flooding. I could stock FHM once built and then the SMB a year later. I have some concrete chucks that I can make a border with and then fill with pea gravel or river rock (1-2"). I prefer to use the larger stones if this is equally suitable.\ Sounds like I should aim for 3 feet of water over that. Should I stock shiners along with the FHM? If so, should they be stocked together, or do the FHM need to get established before stocking the shiners?

You can stock shiners before, after, or at the same time as the FHM. You wont need very many shiners when stocked with the FHM. What you are basically interested in is to get some GSH to large size so they are large sized brood stock when the FHM are eliminated. Also try to stock some or at least a few papershell crayfish with the minnows so they also have a chance to get established and reproduce before adding SMB. If interested in YP &/or RES as panfish, you can also stock fingerling YP in Spring when you stock the minnows or stock YP (2 sizes) in the fall with the SMB. Then the YP will spawn the next spring and provide YOY YP as extra forage for the SMB in addition to minnow shiner-forage. SMB are ALWAYS more common in fall rather than in spring. SMB fingerling are often difficult to find in Spring. YOY - young of year

I would stock fathead minnows and golden shiners at the same time. I would also stock crayfish and grass shrimp as well. Lake chub suckers are also a good addition to your forage base.

I don't see any problems with stocking all of those forage items at the same time. Just be certain that you have areas of cover and proper spawning areas for all of the species that you plan on using as forage. If they don't reproduce and survive you won't have a very good forage base.

Also, letting the pond sit for a year or two with JUST forage and no predators is a great idea. When you put those fingerling smallmouths in your pond it will be nice to see them blasting the millions of fathead minnows cruising around the shoreline.

We have lots of crayfish around so I do not think that they are an issue. They build mounds all over the place in our area. I do not know the species. What advantage do yellow perch offer to growing SMB? I do like RES. How do they fit in to the feed chain?

Lots of benefits of YP vs RES for partnering with SMB. YP provide good forage as 1"-5" individuals for SMB and adult YP of 8"-14" are a very good and tasty panfish. YP go together with SMB like BG go with LMB. YP and SMB occur naturally together and compliment each other in many northern lakes. IMO YP are actually better as a forage fish for SMB compared to RES. Pros of YP vs RES is YP are: more prolific, are more fusiform and easier to be swallowed, feed on a wider variety of foods, are easier to pellet train, will tolerate lower DO, and are a whole lot easier to catch than RES. IMO YP also inhabit more areas naturally frequented by SMB compared to RES. This is not to say that one should not stock RES and YP with SMB. I think RES and YP can partner okay with SMB. I think several pond owners here have RES, YP and SMB together. Maybe they can comment on this topic and how the combination is doing in their pond.

The signs of crayfish that you are seeing indicate that these are not the best crayfish to have in ponds due to the burrows they create thus perforating the walls of the pond. A couple genera with associated species of crayfish do make the characteristic chimney like burrows on the pond banks. Papershell crayfish (Orconectes immunis) do not normally make these types of burrows that damage pond walls and bottoms. Thus Papershell crayfish are a better pond inhabitant compared to some of the other common crayfish. Papershell crayfish are not native to all states. It is good to know what species of crayfish inhabit ones area. IMO you should discourage the crayfish that create the chimney types of burrows on the pond banks.

So when should YP be stocked relative to other species? No choice on the crayfish, they are everywhere. Neighbors enjoy the fish, but I am just a sport fisherman. I like to entertain my friends.

As noted above: "If interested in YP &/or RES as panfish, you can also stock fingerling YP in Spring when you stock the minnows or stock YP (2 sizes) in the fall with the SMB. Then the YP will spawn the next spring and provide YOY YP as extra forage for the SMB in addition to minnow shiner-forage.""

Fingerling YP of 2"-4" do not normally eat lots of minnows at least few if any minnows longer than 1.2". These smaller YP are thriving on primarily invetebrates, mostly insect larvae that are too large for the minnows and shiners. Once the YP get to 5"-6" then the diet becomes more and more small fish 3/4"-1.3" long. Thus a very large majority of the first FHM spawns survive into the first fall-winter. After the YP spawn and SMB are added expect to see large reductions in FHM numbers. After SMB spawn, the number of FHM often disappears, usually the smallest ones 'go' first and later the adult FHM disappear due to SMB predation. Then the fishery has to rely on other forage species as the 'backbone' of the fishery. This is where a shiner-crayfish combination, pellet feeding and maintaining proper number of prey and predator are VERY important for producing a truly high quality fishery. BALENCE of numbers is important. Overpopulation of predators and not enough prey species are often the main problems in many ponds.

If one uses pellet trained YP as first stockers then the stocking numbers and sizes can change significantly.

Bill, to the extent that one wants to use worms to fish for YP, don't GSH become a nuisance as baitstealers? Are other minnow species -- banded killifish, perhaps -- suitable alternatives to GSH? Or are GSH just a necessary evil to round out the forage base for a SMB/YP/RES pond? Are other shiners -- spot fin, satifin, Redfin, -- less predatory than GSH, or are they just as much a mixed bag?

It's all about mouth size. GSH because they reach a larger size have a larger mouth than the other listed forage species. Banded killies have a more upturned mouth designed for surface feeding and is smaller in general than the other shiner species. The other shiner species only reach about 4.5" or less max, so they never get big enough to really grow a mouth large enough to steal bait.

I have found that stocking the the other species first and giving them the time to multiply and fully adapt to the pond produces better results. I would stock the GSH at the same time as the original SMB stocking. This is assuming you are stocking GSH in the 3"-4" range and SMB of about the same size. This way the GSH do not get too big a jump start on your SMB. Otherwise you may get a very numerous original stocking class of GSH which can cause issues. These include GSH being very predecious on the eggs and fry of other forage fish species. So they may really reduce the reproductive potential of the other species which are less prolific and more desirable. Giving those other species a jump start without the presence of GSH gives them a better chance at establishing themselves and staying present in the pond even after SMB are present and reproducing. Stocking the GSH at the same time as the SMB means those GSH will always be too big for the SMB to feed on. They will be the future breeders of your pond. As they die of old age, you hope that your pond has the correct spawning and rearing areas that allows a few GSH born in your pond to reach adulthood and spawn themselves, thus keeping GSH present in your pond but not so numerous as to cause issues.

CJ provides a good alternate plan. GSH have their pros and cons. GSH bait stealing is one of the main negative features of GSH as I see it. One way to combat this problem is to use minnows as the primary live bait for YP. Live and dead minnows work as very good bait for YP in my perch pond.

Another option to not have the bait stealing problem is avoid GSH. Not using GSH requires 'trade offs' if you desire some large sized smallies (14"-20") and a good population of adult YP (8"-14"). Trade offs are: going through the hastle of getting satinfin, spotfin &/or redfin shiners, plus maybe bluntnose minnnows. The other trade off is establishing pellet feeding SMB and YP which is not a simple endeavor. The shiners and bluntnose occur in VA. These fish are not readily available commerically and it really takes a concerted effort to obtain them from the very few isolated private growers or going through the effort to collect them yourself as native fish. This path is not easy and requires homework, time, and probably assistance or good advice.

Using these alternative forage species requires establishing some submerged vegetation for them to perpetuate or thrive in the presence of SMB and YP because these shiners as 4-5" adults without underwater vegetative habitat can still be eaten by 12"-14" SMB. Artificial structure is rarely expansive enough. I advise establishing the vegetation asap after the pond has water in it. Especially for a SMB fishery, you want substancial cover to be established when the predators are added.

Maintaining a pellet feeding predator community and proper thinning of the predators helps a lot to reduce the predatory pressure on the forage fish communnity.

I have also found shallow rocky areas, as in 6"-12" depth where these species can hide in the shallows and the rock crevices to also be excellent escape cover and for most of them also good spawning areas. Good stands of desirable aquatic vegetation are also very important as Bill mentioned.

Proper species of vegetation both emergent and submerged are very important components of creating and having good habitat for the fishery. Assisting Mother Nature can do good things for improving habitat.

CJ makes a good point. Research has shown that rocky shoreline habitat with numerous rock crevices near nesting sites improves survival of SMB fry & fingerling, which helps with recruitment and maintaining viable SMB populations.