Recently got done renovating our 1 1/2 acre pond by lining with 2' of clay and added some structure.


From what I've read here, I should start with fatheads this year and maybe some shiners next spring to form a good feed base. With the rock, would it be a good idea to add crayfish?


I'm not particularly looking to catch giant fish. Just want a good selection and variety that will make it fun.

Fish I enjoy would be(in order of preference):


Walleye
pike
striped bass(hybrid)
crappie
trout
LMB and SMB
bluegill



If anyone would be inclined, I'd appreciate their input on what they would do.



Of course, I know ya'll hate pics but I'll still show a couple of what we have. About 14' deep.



Last week we added rock for about 1 1/2 days with the excavator.






View from pond facing our cabin.

You're right, I absolutely hate those photos. Mainly because I have serious cabin envy.

lol


Well actually our cabin-cabin is up in the woods.

Great job with the habitat!!

Okay, now I REALLY hate your photos.

Thanks man. Learned it all here.

lol

Not sure what it is about cabins and ponds that make men forget about everything else. I'm like a little kid here and I don't care.


We sit back about a 1/4 miles back in the woods of lovely Pa.

Moderators, can you do something about this guy?

Jeez he's ruining my entire day.

Just a quick reply, others will have a more detailed response - I'm running short of time this a.m.

I'd throw lots of both shiners and FHM in the pond this year, and try like heck to get some grass or emergent plants growing on the pond edges so the shiners will have spawning areas next spring. Get a huge forage base for all those predators!

You wanted response on the following for your pond:
Walleye
Good, put 'n take fishery. No recruitment in ponds, relatively slow growing (compared to bass)
pike
Will eat anything that they can fit in their mouths, and will try to eat larger fish as well. Impossible to control what they eat. Possible reproduction in ponds, depending on habitat.
striped bass(hybrid)
Put 'n take fishery. Will grow quickly if pellet fed.
crappie
Not recommended for ponds. They reproduct unpredictably, and will take extensive management by the pond owner. Can overpopulate quickly. Not a preferred forage fish by predators.
trout
Put 'n take. Will not survive water temps 70° and above. Usually seasonal stocking - stocked in the fall, removed by late spring.
LMB and SMB
Take your pick. Either one or the other. SMB will get overrun by LMB in a pond. You cannot sustain a SMB population with LMB in a pond. You can always switch to a LMB population if you have a SMB population, but not the other way around.
bluegill
Good forage fish for LMB. Maybe too much fecundity for SMB.

If you want SMB, look into RES if they'll survive in your area. I'd also look at YP and/or PSK.

You have LOTS of predators in the list with minimal forage fish. Crayfish will be a plus. Make sure that you find a supplier that will have species that are found locally - non-native are easier to find, but they could turn into invasives or not make it at all.

Gotta run.

I would stay away from pike in a pond under 5 acres. Just not enough biomass to support a high end predator like that. Esshup hit the other species dead on. With the rocky habitat you have placed at your pond, I can see SMB doing well in it. If you are indifferent as to whether you want SMB or LMB, I could go with the SMB as they are easier to manage. Finding an initial source for the SMB may be a little tricky, but IMO would be worth it. I think managing SMB is usually easier. They don't wipe out forage bases as quickly as LMB do and the stocking of other species is easier as they are less apt to eat them. Such as HSB, WE or trout. Unless you have a pretty steady spring running into your pond, I doubt trout would survive in it year round. Even being up in northwest PA, you're still gonna struggle. However, you'll have a very long window that trout will survive in your pond. Have you decided if you are going to aerate and feed your fish? Both factors weigh heavily on stocking numbers and other advice given... Fill in those details and we can work on a time line and stocking numbers for your pond and your goals for it.

Esshup, I really appreciate all the info. To be quite frank, I never would have attempted building my pond without all the help I've gotten here.

Incredible human and fish habitat there - excellent work - these pics made my day. Your rock piles and points are screaming SMB and YP to me. I know you didn't list YP on your list, but they fill the Crappie niche well as an aggressive panfish and are great table fare and won't pose the same overpopulation risk as Crappie with their more fusiform body - more easily preyed upon even when they get larger. I agree with Scott and Travis 100% above RE stocking suggestions.

CJ, not sure how much it matter but pond is spring fed. I know last year when the pond was almost full we tried to swim in it and it couldn't have been more than 72' during the hottest period of summer. Actually, below your waist was even colder. The spring at the outlet is near 50' and comes down the hill over rocks which I believe I read helps with aeration. Not sure how much it helps though.


For the bass, not really particular. I like catching both. Would like to throw some HSB in if I could.


I'm probably not going to feed my fish but would like to get a good amount of food started this year such as minnows, shiners, crawfish and maybe some aquatic vegetation. The goal is for the pond to be self sustaining if possible.

YP would be cool. We have them in the creek about 150 yrds behind the pond.


I never understood the importance of structure until I started reading here and am real appreciative for the help. To be honest, it's sort of addictive. Might build some of those lego type wood structures I've seen on here.


lol

I had visions of making the bottom look like ancient ruins and maybe burying some silver coins but it was too much work. Maybe I'll get some sand for a beach and bury some coins there for the nieces and nephews.

Sounds like if your pond is spring fed and stays cool, then there is a decent chance of trout survival. If the DO levels can remain high enough, you might have a chance. You may be able to only hold brown trout over, but you won't know until you stock trout. I would consider stocking 20-30 of each species, brown, brook and rainbows and see how they do. Then depending on the results you can consider one species over another. Tiger trout and the favorite palomino(golden rainbow) trout are also options to consider. Once your predator base gets established you will need to stock trout at least 8" and closer to 10" to make sure they don't become expensive fish food. Trout will need to be restocked periodically as they will not reproduce in your pond.

HSB should do well in your pond with the cooler temps, particularly the larger fish as they need cooler higher DO levels. I see no reason why you cannot stock them. They will need to be restocked periodically though as they will not reproduce. The same holds true for the walleye. They are more of a cool water species as well and it would be very remote they would reproduce, so there would be a need to restock them. For the HSB and WE, restocking can be done annually or every other year to allow you to have well represented size ranges available in your pond.

If you pond is staying chilly enough for trout and is in NW PA, RES(redear sunfish) will not be an option. They are a great species for the south, but when you start getting north of the Mason-Dixon line things get blurry and throw in the heavy spring influence of you pond, they just aren't going to do well.

As TJ said, consider YP of crappie. Crappies are a challenge to work with at best while YP are far more easier to manage. Crappies are fine eating, but I think YP are even better. Plus YP make a far better forage base, particularly for WE. Since you will not be feeding, you are going to need a very solid natural food chain.

Go with the SMB over the LMB in my opinion. It's going to be easier to maintain a self sustaining food chain with SMB where as with LMB, they will eat everything and themselves and cause a real challenge. It will also be difficult on your WE as the LMB out compete them and will eat even the larger end stocker fish.

Species I would consider for stocking into your pond:
Trout(any of the 5 varieties I mentioned)
walleye(WE)
hybrid striped bass(HBS)
smallmouth bass(SMB)
yellow perch(YP)
pumpkinseed sunfish(PS)
golden shiners(GSH)
fathead minnows(FHM)
banded killifish(BKF)

This fall if your pond level is correct I would stock your forage fish. I would stock 5 pounds of GSH, 5 pounds of FHM and 500 BKF. Zett's is the only place I know that sells banded killfish and they are in northern WV. They call them bull minnows. It may be a pain to get them, but if you are going on a straight natural food chain with little to no feeding, I strongly recommend you get them.

I would then give your forage a full year to reproduce. The following fall I would stock the SMB(75) and WE(15-20). The following spring, I would stock the YP(250) and HSB(20).

When you see your SMB have reached the 12" range, then I would stock the PS(300). This will make sure your bass are big enough to control the PS so they do not over populate and stunt.

Trout can be stocked the same time as the first SMB and WE, but I would hold off on stocking them at least one more year.

The recommended stocking numbers are on the lower end as you will not be feeding and since you want to hold trout you cannot fertilize as this will run the risk of lowering DO levels. This stocking recommendation will IMO give you the best chance at producing fish of all species in quality size fish relying solely on a natural food chain which is a real challenge in a smaller pond. Do a search on spawning habits of the FHM and GSH, you want to make sure they are making lots of babies in the first year. BKF spawn very similar to GSH.

If you want to add crayfish, I would recommend finding the closest pond or lake to your place and trapping them from there. Then transfer them to your pond. Just a few dozen without predation should take hold. That way you are getting a species adapted to non flowing waters that is already found in your area. Fish farms most often sell species that are not native to the Northeast and you don't want them...

Great work T. Are you going to start charging an online fee?

One consideration RE feeding: Fish will grow up to 300% faster with a supplemental feeding program. It may not seem important now, but when you stock your pond the waiting for them to attain sporting size can be excruciating. Even with my pellet program it still required two full seasons for fish to be catchable. Just something to consider - hopefully you're far more patient than I!

CJ, that's an amazing plan! I'm a little floored you went out of your way to help me out like that.



I would be ecstatic if my pond could hold all those varieties of fish you recommended.




....I've got to show this to my wife.



Thanks again!

Rex Roae

Thank you so much for this incredible information. My husband is so excited about your fish recommendations. He wasn't sure what to do and now he is ready to go! Can't thank you enough for taking the time to provide this level of detail.
Rex's wife (Brenda) :-)

This many predators in a smaller pond is a CHALLENGE... You will have to closely monitor the predators and forage. The biggest thing feeding pellets does is allow you to have more biomass along with the added benefit of faster growth rates. There is however no need to feed if you are willing to be patient, know your biomass levels will be lower and expect slower growth rates.

Keys to making this stocking plan work:

1)Be patient and allow your forage base to establish. (FHM will be gone within a couple years, leaving you just the GSH and BKF.)

2)Provide some shallow areas for the young forage to take cover. This is important is in my opinion the number one reason many smaller ponds cannot support a permanent forage fish population after predator over abundance. Most smaller ponds have very steep sides with limited shallow areas. Usually to prevent aquatic vegetation issues, but to the detriment of natural forage.

3)Provide structure in the deeper areas.

4)Provide spawning areas for the different forage species. Again, research on the forum how GSH and FHM spawn and provide that for them. Keep the FHM spawn structure SHALLOW! Less than 1 foot...

5)Be realistic in your goals for a 1.5 acre pond... This means limited stocking of species. Keep the stockings of the HSB and WE minimal, 10-20 per year max! If your SMB are successful in their spawns, you may have to harvest large numbers of their offspring. This could also be the case with the YP. There are no pellets for them to eat, they will be relying solely on natural forage. There is only so much natural forage a 1.5 acre pond can produce... It may be prudent to even lower the stocking number of SMB down to 50 to allow more forage for the WE and HSB. Keep in mind that the trout will also be feeding on your forage base. Having all these species in a smaller pond can be done, but it is not easy particularly when relying solely on a natural forage base. It seems like you are living on site, so managing the pond will be easier.

If this seems a bit overwhelming, a simpler stocking plan with less species can be recommended... HSB and WE can be added further down the road.

rrroae, great looking pond and cabins you've built, and the advice given should help you get a first class pond going. (you didn't know CJ gets paid by the word )
The only thing I would add is to get a thermometer with temp. probe, also a water test kit and keep a journal of water temps. and quality readings, they could come in handy later on.
Good luck and keep us updated.

I would really think about aeration and feeding. It might be an up-front cost to get the systems set up, but it can really increase the number of fish your pond can hold, and prevent fish kills. My thought is that it's a virtual expansion of the size of a pond. You have at least a year to think about it while your forage base builds up.

Definitely add some (local) crayfish BUT let them establish before the predators are added. I like the looks of Pumpkinseed sunfish versus Bluegill and yellow perch are nice. One note on your wish for Pike. Yes, they will eat everything in site but are cool to have - I love their looks and they are a great ambush predator. Instead, consider chain pickerel which are in the same pike family and don't get nearly as big. Grass or redfin pickerel are too small and will get eaten by bass, etc. but Chain pickerel will hold their own. Unlike Pike, who will eat everything out of house and home, chain pickerel (so I hear) will keep a decent pond balance and prevent both Bass and sunfish from getting overpopulated as they will eat some of the 6-9 inch bass. Any pike species likes some weeds or lily pad areas to spawn in and to ambush their prey from. This is one way to control them. i.e. of you have minimal weedy areas, the pickerel will never get out of control. Not many people sell chain pickerel, but you should be able to catch them from other lakes in PA.

Rex beautiful pond you have built there, we live in a nice part of the world don't we?? I was just curious where you were located in NW PA? I also would like to extend an invite to give you some yellow perch next year, I have a pond that is full of young of the year and they will be easily trapped or caught by hook and line next year. It would help me reduce my numbers as well as give your pond a boost once you have your forage base started. You have enough water to add some FH minnows already, don't wait.

CJ, if one day a couple years from now I threw in my pole and caught a 6" perch, I'd be ecstatic. It's beyond my imagination to think I could catch a variety of species including some nicer size fish out of a hole I had dug on my own property. Heck, sometimes I don't believe I really have a cabin in the woods.



You've given me a ton of information that I'm very appreciative for and it's really comforting having a plan to go forward with instead of the hours and hours of head scratching I usually end up doing.


Thank you for being so selfless with your time and knowledge.

Rex

I can get crawfish out of the creek that sits behind the pond. Also have some type of larger salamander(about 8") that we found when digging for the culvert from the spring to the pond. Not sure if they have any benefit.


I'll forgo the pike or any subspecies for the time being in lieu of stocking with walleye. They might not fight like pike or pickerel but they're a good size gamefish I'd be more than happy catching.

Joe, that is a very thoughtful offer for the perch that I might have to take you up on.


I live over in Guys Mills near Sugar Lake. Small world.


Rex

See! I told you the experts would be along shortly. I don't have anything left to add.

Well let me know when the experts show up, I have more questions Esshup.

Rex it is indeed a small world, I live 1/2 mile off of Rt. 408 a few miles east of the pheasant farm near a bend in the road called Teepleville. I have been to Sugar Lake many times, I worked on a bridge down in Milledgeville last year operating a crane and commuted down 173 daily for a while.

As far as the perch think nothing of it, it's an excuse to fish, a way to help me manage my pond, and it will save you a few bucks instead of having to buy them. I have seen lots of little ones this year, they will be hungry come spring, for sure.

Hey Joe - I am glad you have been popping your head in more of late! You and Ken inspired me to start a worm farm this year with the kids based on your old posts years back, and I was wondering where a forum vet like yourself had been spending their time. Good to have you back - we need veteran guidance!

Teehjaeh I'm just a poor country boy who loves to eat fish, as to where I have been spending my time, well, long story short version is usually in a crane somewhere or in my garage and getting caught up on all the work I neglected the previous year when I finished my house renovation. I am far from an expert, I'm still learning like everyone, but I feel like you gotta pay it forward and give something back to a board that has given so much to me. I have always enjoyed your posts as well and I really like your signature, I think of it everytime fishing gets slow, or hunting too, I'm really not out there anymore for the success as much as the experience.

You're here. As long as you don't start arguing with yourself over your answers you'll be fine.

CJ, Dave Willis, you, everybody else who answered; they all were good answers in my book. I'm just along for the ride.

Ask away!!

If your spring has a fair distance to run before it gets to your pond maybe a small forage pond would be a good idea. The other guys know better but i think a bunch of extra fhm once or twice a year would help get your smaller mouthed predators (smb/yp/hsb) up to catchable size a little quicker. What do you think guys? I think it would make culling an absolute necessity though, as more young would survive and would make stunting of the bass and perch more likely. Just a thought.

I think the forage pond is a good idea. In my mind, culling = fish for the table.

Joe, again I appreciate the kind offer. I also think it would be pretty cool seeing your pond.


PaWatergremlin, that small forage pond sounds like a neat idea. I might have the perfect place for it.

Anytime you want to swing by Rex, I am home most every evening to feed at 8:30 to 9 or so, matter of fact, it's time to feed the fish now. Get some FH's in there, you can't go wrong having fathead minnows in your pond, everything eats them.

My only concern with the forage pond being built between the spring source and the pond is the water will warm up substantially in the forage pond before it enters the main pond.

Rex, if you are interested in species of forage that may be better than the golden shiners and fatheads but are unsure how or where to catch and ID them. Maybe we can work out a weekend next spring and I can take a trip up your way and either bring you some or locally collect them. Species like bluntnose minnows, spotfin shiners and banded killifish...

Joe,

just put an order in for 5 lbs of minnows and 5 lbs of shiners. Should have them by next Wed.

Didn't think about that. I believe that would negate my trout plans so I'll have to think of something else.




CJ, I really appreciate it but I think I found a source online that I'm going to try.

http://agmap.psu.edu/Businesses/3075

I must say your generosity floors me. I sometimes lose faith in people but every once in awhile I'll meet someone like yourself that reminds me that there are still good people around. If you ever want to vacation up this way, you'd be welcome to use our cabin and I'd be more than happy to show you around.

John Sproch is a fish supplier that Sunil uses. If I recall correctly, the SMB pictured on that web page are from Sunil's pond... From what I hear, he can be tough to get a hold of but can help in getting you unusual fish and larger than normal sizes as well. Something you will need for your pond goals.

Keep us updated on how things progress... That is the most frustrating thing about the forum in my opinion. Many folks come in for advice but then never or rarely check back in to share how things are progressing. That is how we all learn.

Rex you can buy fatheads more locally at Hilltop Hatchery over near Corry or at Raup Fisheries near Conneautville, both are within an hour drive more or less from Sugar Lake area. I bought my FH's from Raup as well as some Yellow Perch stock, Hilltop has a website if you google it. Many smaller local hatcheries not far from here carry trout, you could put some in for the winter and figure on removing them in the spring to eat before water got too warm. Glad you got some fish on the way, you will enjoy opening those bags, guaranteed!!!

Joe, I did order my fatheads and shiners from Raup. I'll be using Sproch's nursery for the other fish since he stocks harder to find species. Today I'll set up a crawfish trap down at the creek.

Got this structure idea from a thread here at pond boss. Do you guys like it?

Should I build more?

Love it...How long did that take to build?

And how did you anchor it all down?

Logs were already cut. Took about 2 hrs. Tied with welding wire. Not staked down but I could tie it down to some blocks.

You may want to anchor it with some heavy blocks or rocks or it may float... Structure is good, but don't over do it either. Putting it in before the pond fills is a great idea. It is easier to do and allows you to place it exactly where you want it. If you're going with SMB, search for SMB info on here particularly how to build spawning beds for them... I would construct a couple dozen beds for them to spawn in.

Stainless wire? If not, the wire may rot thru in a couple of years. Hopefully the logs will be waterlogged enough so they won't float.

Not sure what welded wire is made of but it is used for fencing on farms for livestock.



I ordered some paracord today which is nylon and I'll use that to reinforce the structure. Made an additional log structure like the above today but this time I put rocks on the base to help secure it. I'll do that to the first log structure as well.


CJ, I've been checking out those SMB spawning beds on the forums. Seems you just put some rock in a small square and fill with pea gravel. I'll give it a shot.

I thought you meant that you tied it together with welding wire that is used on a Mig Welder, sorry. You can use either aluminum, steel or stainless steel in a Mig Welder.

With the welded wire and the paracord, it will hold together for a long time.

Wasn't sure on the paracord but nylon seemed like a good choice. Couldn't get a tight wrap with the welded wire because it's thick and not the easiest to work with. Hopefully the paracord will do a good job.



If you guys have never used it, paracord is great for about everything you can't do with duct tape.


Really good deal on Amazon right now for 1000' ft spool.

http://www.amazon.com/Olive-Parachute-Pa...0KWVA63J4207SGY