Let me throw out this idea and see what you all think. One of the great aspects of this site is the ability to learn from so many people and to learn without making all the mistakes a newbie like me would be prone to make.

As the "dream" pushes forward, one thing I have learned from my Pond Boss magazine is plans change and there are many options available on how to run your pond.

Originally I was looking at a .5 acre catfish pond which would sit above the main pond of WE, SMB and YP. As I read more and more about pond capacities and catfish, I am thinking that .5 acre is going to support more fish than I will eat. In my warped mind, to have too many fish in a body of water that are not being eaten is to under utilize that body of water. If you have read the "Catfish and what" thread, we explored other options for the .5 acre and other fish to complement the catfish but none were forth coming. HSB, RE are not allowed in WI. I am avoiding BG, LMB and others to avoid any fish moving from above to the lower main pond and upsetting the balance of the lower pond.

After re-reading Cecil's article and his several ponds set up at 1/10th acre BOW, Eric West's work using blocking nets to create hatchery options and and the articles in the magazine on mini-ponds, I was wondering if I could split the .5 acre pond with a blocking net into two parts and have catfish in one side and rainbow trout in the other.

1. The side with trout would be dug deeper, 10-12 feet with narrow sides to help with water heating up
Is this typically deep enough for trout

2. I have a well that could pump water as Cecil does for 4 months of the year to keep water cool.

3. A Vertex aerator will be installed
if this split is possible should the aerator be on the catfish side or trout side?

4. I will have a feeder installed to feed fish.
dumb question - would I or should I have a separate feeder and use separate types of food or is trout and catfish food close enough for my small limited operations?

5. Trout and Catfish will be stocked at low densities.
Question - is this good 50-100 fish to be stocked?

6. I will have several forage ponds producing FH, Golden shiners, Blunt-nose (I hope). These forage fish will help supplement the feeding. I will leave the Golden shiners out of the .5 pond.
question- Goldens are two quick for catfish and can grow too large or at least that is what I have read and understood. Does that apply to Trout also?

Finally, I am thinking about the blocking net for the following reasons:
- the .5 acre pond will be excavated as part of the barrow area
- To have two separate ponds, I would have to build a dividing wall between them
- I was hoping in this crazy plan to share aerator, feeder, food, drain pipe, overflow pipe between the two .25 acre ponds (save a little money)
- If the plan eventually proved to be stupid and not maintainable, I could just pull out the blocking net and go back to having a .5 acre catfish pond.

There it is-- any feedback or threads helping in the planing, decision process is appreciated.

Kurt I'm sure more knowledgeable people will give you advice but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

1&2, 10 to 12 ft should be deep enough if you can pump cold well water in, but it would help to increase the O2 in the well water by running it down a short course of rocks to the pond.
3. In most cases an aerator is a big help but let the experts weigh in.
4. Catfish don't require as high a protein diet as trout, and I believe that catfish usually use sinking feed, so it's a matter of how much efficiency you want.
5.Yeah I would say no more than 50 in a quarter acre, but that also depends on what size you are stocking.
6. I have lots of GSH in my trout pond and they love them, and I'm sure Channel cats would make use of them also.

If you stock trout start off with rainbows, they're the most tolerant of warmer water but try to keep it under 70F.

Good luck, read up on as much info as possible.

Thanks,

any help is appreciated. I am really excited about this project.

Kurt, I just saw this post... Give me some time to digest it all and I will try to give you some well thought out ideas and opinions of mine...

I like how you try to utilize so many ideas of different members to make things work for you and your goals!

Here is my first impression of mixing trout and CC. My dad's friend has a trout pond which stays naturally cold because of a fairly decent sized spring flowing into it and the higher elevation his property is located(around 3000'). Before he dug other ponds on his property, he mixed some CC in with the trout. No blocking net, they just were held together. The biggest thing I saw was the CC just didn't grow fast. They survived, but growth rates were slow even with supplemental feeding. I think that may be one of your biggest challenges in a dual pond like this.

Even if the CC and trout are separated by a blocking net, which I am not sure is even needed... The water temperature on the CC side is pretty much going to be close to the temperature on the trout side. The net isn't going to effect the water flow between the two sides. Even if you dig the trout side a bit deeper. The use of an aerator would have to probably be utilized the way AP does and that is have it set to only run when air temps are below say 68 degrees. How many nights in the summer does the air temp drop below 68 in your area? The deeper aspect would be helpful in giving you more water volume allowing it to maintain a cooler temp through a heat spell. However, you're gonna have to run that well water a lot in the summer I am guessing... Cecil is the man to ask when it comes to that. Perhaps, you can send him a PM and ask him to post his thoughts and ideas on this as well...

As far as feed, use trout feed the catfish will do just fine on it, but not vice versa. I don't think GSH are too fast for CC to feed on. Once CC reach the 2 pound range, they are efficient piscavorous predators. If your purpose in this pond is to grow catfish to eating size and then harvest them, the need to stock GSH is not there. FHM would do fine. FHM will usually hold up in numbers when only CC and trout are present. Now if you plan to grow CC larger than a couple pounds, then you can consider adding GSH. Remember though, you're planning on feeding pellets so the CC and trout will be obtaining most of their food via pellets in all likelihood. GSH may get too big for the trout and CC and you could have issues with that, so that is why I would hesitate adding them even if you plan on growing the CC larger than 2 pounds. Rely on FHM, bluntnose minnows and pellets to feed your CC and trout.

To wrap it up... I don't think you even need a block net... There is no reason you can't mix trout and CC IMO. Unless your growing 8 pound plus CC which would then prey on your trout, they will live together fine. I think you will see greatly reduced growth rates in your CC if they are kept in water temps suitable for trout but they will grow. Feed them trout feed and both the trout and CC will grow fine. See if you can get Cecil to weigh in on how much well water pumping you're gonna need to keep the pond cool enough for trout. I think that is going to be the biggest challenge... Keeping the pond cold enough and oxygenated enough through the warm summer months. A combination of well water, aeration used in the correct way may allow trout to survive the summer, but I think it will be a challenge.

Best of luck and keep us updated on what you decide to do...

Fantastic info. It sounds like keeping the water cool with well pumping will be the biggest challenge.

Since construction has not started in the barrow area the following questions pertain to what can be done to help with keeping water cooler.

Elevation of pond is minimal around 1000ft.
Steeper banks to minimize water warming and depths at lest 10-12 feet

Pond Construction
In pond construction I read that you want no more than 25% 3 feet or less to minimize weed growth and at least 25% to be the deeper area say 10-12 feet. That leaves roughly 50% to be from 3 feet to the bottom depth. In this pond would I want a greater % to be at the deepest point say 50% to be 10-12 foot?

Thanks again. I will keep the rusted wheels of my mind slowly turning

Kurt, if you can afford to go deeper i would think it would minize heat transfer. More deep area v's shallow. Many people around here thought it was a waste of time/money for me to go to 18 ft with my pond here in Fl. But i feel that i will have the chance to grow larger fish due to them having access to colder water during the hot summers. They are unlikely to slow down eating (during summer time) compared to shallow ponds in my area. I think its money well spent as long as you can areate all of the depth so its usable. My areator runs 24/7 at 18 ft deep.

I forgot to ask this question.

Since trout will not reproduce and I will not put in structure for catfish to reproduce, I will need to yearly or every other year re-stock both catfish and trout. After several years, trout and catfish remaining in the pond will have some size to them probably each fish will be less than 100LBS haha but seriously folks, if I re-stock I am thinking that the fingerlings will become food for the larger and older fish.

Do I need to plan on growing out trout and catfish in a cage (many articles in Pond Boss by Bill and Cecil) or in a grow out pond???

Or will fingerling trout and catfish be able to avoid predation with enough Fatheads and blunt-nose and supplemental feeding??

It depends on what the goal of the pond is... Are these trout and catfish mostly for food, as in harvesting shortly after they reach eating size? Trout, around 10"-12", CC around 14"-16". Will you be harvesting them after a year or two of growth or are you going to try to grow larger fish by letting them in the pond for several years. If you allow CC to reach 4 or 5 pounds and trout to push the 15"+ range, you're gonna experience them eating some of the fingerlings you stock. Utilizing cage culture or stocking larger fish will mitigate this. One thing nice about CC is how cheap advanced fingerlings are. I find when stocking trout into the creek behind our cabin, that fish under 9" are turned into forage for other fish. When I stocked them 10"+, they survive and do well... Stocking 4" trout into a pond that contains 5 pound CC and 18" trout is going lead to an expensive food source those fingerlings become.

Again, thanks for the info I think the plan is changing with all things considered. I read a little on WI DNR and NY DNR and I think I am leaning toward your first option there CJBS2003.

I think I will lean toward stocking in the fall maybe 50 8-10inch and look to fish them out by late May or June. I may try the first year to run the well and aerator when needed but since we do not live on site, it sounds like the trout may take more care than we can provide during the warmer months.

The catfish would sort of be in the same boat. I am not looking to grow big fish but more toward eating size and fun catching size though it will not be a priority to fish them out.

Since I would be stocking a small number of trout and catfish 50 maybe a little more in the .5 pond, the cost is not so high that I could not look at larger more advanced fish which as you stated should help limit fish loss due to predation.

anything else I need to think through?

With my experience this winter, if you run an aerator during the winter, you can feed the trout in the same hole all winter long. I had an aerator set at 4' depth (suspended) in 10' of water in front of the feeder. The feeder was set to go off once/day and the trout ate every day. From late October until now they've put on from 2"-4" and some have gained over 1/2#. I stocked 10"-12" fish, IIRC they were right around 1# when stocked. I caught one Wed night that was 15" and 1.6#.

Deepness doesn't automatically make a pond fit for trout. We have natural lakes in my area that are 60 to 70 feet deep and only have enough oxygen in the top 20 feet as soon as late June. Sure, that deeper water can stay cool enough for trout after the pond stratifies, but you need a minimum of 5 ppm until the pond turns over in fall. Most ponds start to get depleted oxygen in their hypoliminion at your latitude. There are exceptions as in some very deep gravel pits with low fertility substrata however. But usually these pits are quite deep at at least 30 or 40 feet deep and have a low fertility.

One alternative is hypolimnetic aeration where oxygen is injected into the hypolimnion or diffuser aeration is so minimal it won't break up the stratification.



But keep in mind my I was pumping 45 gpms 24 /7 . That's 64,800 gallons a day. To keep a .5 acre pond cool enough you might have to pump at least 5 X that much or 225 gallons a day which comes out to 324,000 gallons a day.



If you're talking about a diffuser that breaks up the thermocline, if you're not pumping enough water (as in above) you will probably warm your water up too much for the trout. My .5 acre pond that uses diffusion to break up the thermocline warms up to the upper 70's in the summer from top to bottom.



High protein for the trout - at least 41 percent. But I would simplify by using the high protein for both.



What size?



Trout will go after the fatheads and shiners if they are not too big.



The trout can catch the shiners, however if you are also feeding the trout pellets they will predominately feed on the pellets.



I tried a blocking net once to separate browns and brooks in the 1/10th acre pond. It was a failure and a waste of time and money.

I have a question; I live in Minnesota and have a very small pond in my back yard (4'wide X 20'long and 4' deep)for you guys this is not even a pond but a pail.
Anyhoo, I am wondering if it would be possible to raise rainbow trout for a season. My intention is to probably just fish them out during the year and not overwinter them or really try and raise them, just fish them. It has excellent aeration but it does get a bit warm. Is this just a pipe dream or is it possible? If not is there another species that could handle these conditions?
Thanks

If you're NOT going to make it a flow through pond with aerated well water than it is pipe dream (year around that is). However one thing you have going for you is a smaller a pond is easier keep it cool as you won't have to flow through as much water (less pumping).

As far as overwintering them it's usually easier to overwinter trout than it is to oversummer them for obvious reasons.

It really depends on several factors, but I believe you could possibly do it successfully. A pond that size, if it has any water movement at all, will probably have pretty consistent temperatures everywhere. Rainbow would probably be my only choice. If you are north of Duluth, you might have a chance to make it through the summer, but not the winter. If you are south of the Cities, I'd say you don't have a chance to make it through the summer or winter.

You probably could do OK from ice-out until mid-June, and from late September until ice-over.

The neat thing about trout, if they have clean well-oxygenated moving water at or below the mid-60s, is that you can crowd them. Hatchery rainbow take feed readily, they grow fast, and they are easy to catch. Unfortunately, they start to die pretty quickly when the temperature gets into the high 60s, and/or if you don't have adequate oxygen.

Good luck,
Ken

Good points Ken. What some people forget about trout is they are routinely raised in raceways 3 feet deep and maybe double that in width. The don't need much room but they do need 55 to 65 F. temp water for optimum growth and health along with a minimum of 5 ppm of D.O.

I think the temp may get as high as the upper 60's. I am thinking that I would stock it with 10-30 10" fish and then kind of fish them out over the year ( April-Nov). I have good areation (2'wide falls dropping straight down 2' into a catch basin). Would they be able to survive the season? Is this a good size to try this with?
Thanks again.

If your pond temps max at the upper 60's you may be able to pull off holdover through the summer. If you stock brown trout you have a better chance then rainbows or brooks.

Cecil:

What's the temp range of Brookies vs. Browns vs. Rainbows? What are the lethal upper limits? (providing there is enough DO at those temps)

Terra,

Nobody knows more about raising trophy trout in small ponds than our friend Cecil. He has raised some monster trout. If he suggests browns, I'd go with browns.

This is Cecil and one of his back yard browns:



I don't have a lot experience with browns, but if they feed anywhere near like rainbow, they will grow quite fast. You just have to make sure you supply a good high protein feed, and not so much as to degrade water quality, but enough that they grow really fast.

With the description of your water source, I think you could go near the high end for quantity. At least out here, trout are relatively inexpensive and easy to locate from dealers. It may be worth a try with a small quantity. Keep increasing the quantity to see when you reach water quality limits or die off.

Good luck. Keep us informed.

Ken

How fast should I assume that they would grow given adequate amounts of food?
What size would be Ideal to start with?
When you say on the high end of quantity, how many would you suggest?
Thanks again

Up to an inch per month.




Depends on how long you want to wait for them to get to a certain size. Sometimes smaller fish adapt better initially, but they are also easier prey by predator birds and other fish.



I think Ken said this?

Personally I go by flow rate at a max harvest of 12 lbs. per gpm. I tried not to go much above 500 lbs. of trout upon harvest of my 1/10th acre pond with 45 gpm.




Here's my biggest brown. Just under 12 lbs. It was 5 years old maximum. I got it as a 3 year old about 18 inches and kept it two more years. My neighbor is holding it as he got off his lawnmower and helped me land it.

Terra,

As for size, it is a balancing act. The smaller and younger they are, the higher the mortality rate. The larger and older they are, the slower they grow, and the closer they are to their last days. Somewhere in between is just right. Ten to twelve inch trout should be good place to start.

Ken

P.S. This link will give you a good idea of weight vs. length. Relative Weight for Trout, Pike, Musky and Rock Bass

THose are some beautiful fish, Cecil. I'm envious, I do not think that I'll be able to grow any that big.
I am thinking that I would like them at least 12-14" (small filleting size) when I catch them.
I'll only have 7 months to grow them and I will not be able to overwinter them.
I could assume that if I want to catch some that are around the 14" range maybe start with 10" fish.
Will they grow quicker with the warmer temps or will they do poorly because of it?
Im shooting about a 1/550th of an acre pond. 10 fish?
When you mention flow rate what am I measuring?
My pump circulates about 1800GPH or 30 gallons per minute.
This rate is the pump to the falls, or the amount coming over the falls.
Thanks again

They will grow the fastest at the upper range of their optimum temps which are 55 to 65 F. Above and below that, growth is not as good. Too high and you end up with stress, disease, and mortalities.




Not sure. When in doubt always stock conservatively.




I'm talking about inflow of fresh water which in my case was well water.

From all the research I have done, the limits really do vary greatly. Even among the same species. I've tried to pin point a magical number and just can't seem to find it. DO plays as big a role as temperature if not more so. If you have full saturation, trout of all species can handle much warmer temps. Brown trout definitely are more tolerant. Some studies I have seen put them being able to tolerate 78 degrees indefinitely at full saturation and up to 84 degrees for short periods of time. Obviously, this stresses them greatly. Brook trout are by far the least tolerant of the bunch. There are a lot of good studies from Tennessee where they study rainbow trout and brown trout survival in tailwater fisheries from reservoirs. They constantly check temp and DO through out the year and see how survival rates are. Fishing closer to the dam do best, as that is where the water is the coolest... Further down river where the water gets a chance to warm up survival is greatly cut back. A place I fish for trout in a tailwater fishery hold rainbows year round for the first 5 miles or so downstream of the dam and then it switches over to solely browns for another 10 before trout can no longer survive through the summer.

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

If you can, post photos and keep us informed of progress -- including successes and failures. Not that we want you to fail, but knowing what not to do is probably more important than just being lucky.

We've got some real interesting Pond Bosses here who raise "fun fish" and trophy fish under very unusual circumstances. It is always fun and inspiring to read about what other people are doing.

Here are some trout that overwintered in my pond that is mainly managed for big bluegill and feisty channel catfish. I put them in at about 10-12 inches in October, and we start taking them out in April and May at 12 to 14 inches. This year my pond was iced over from early December until mid-March, so we didn't get much feeding time.



Just for fun, we always put in a few goldens.

Thanks CJ. That information is good enough for me. I was thinking that if the RBT don't make it this Summer I'd try and throw some Browns in with the RBT next Fall and see how they do.

esshup, we could do an exchange program, your trout could summer in my pond, and we ship all the trout to winter in your pond.

I love when a question sparks such good discussion and insights from so many different people. I can't wait until I ma the person posting pictures of beauties caught. Patience, patience, patience.

AP:

Not a problem! When is Rex going that way??

I gotta take a video of them feeding now. They're jumping completely out of the water when feeding.

As many of you know, I love cooking and eating -- especially fish, roadkill, venison, etc. I can take or leave most trout -- except for slow/cold smoked.

Feeding is my major reason for loving them. It is so incredible to take kids and the elderly down to the pond and let them throw pellets into the water. Trout must be naturally near-sighted. In seconds of throwing pellets into the pond, the crazy trout attack pellets like they are mayflies 2 feet above the water surface. These silly fish jump straight out of the water, dance on their tails for a second or two, and belly flop back into the pond -- before they repeat the whole sequence.

Kurt -

If your goal for the catfish are guests of honor for dinner, have you given any thought to cage raising some in your main pond while reserving the 0.5 acre pond for trout only.

- Russ

I have thought about cage raising but my concern is that I do not live on the pond site and will only visit during the weekends and not every weekend will I be able to get there.

I kind of like the idea of aerating and feeding through the winter and fishing out the trout come the spring and then spending the summer and early fall fishing for catfish. Once fall hits again, re-stocking trout and some catfish for the next year.

I think the well and water needs will be too great to summer over the trout.

My thought after reading all the entries is to find 8-10 inch trout for the fall and with feeding they should put on a couple of inches before spring.