Hello everybody:

I am subscriber to Pond Boss Magazine and I have been reading this forum for the last few weeks. I have met Cecil Baird 1 and Rainman - by phone – and they were very kind to me and shared their wisdom. My ponds are in NW Indiana. Both are new and approximately 1 acre large and up to 14 feet deep. Both are fed from ground water, which is not unusual for NW Indiana ponds. But they therefore fluctuate in depth – 6 feet this year alone. Both ponds are made mostly of sand with some clay and gravel. Also both ponds will have air diffusers powered by windmills and/or Koenders EL compressors, all supplied by Superior Windmill in Regina, Canada.

My goal with these ponds is the following:

Swimming for the kids
Providing dinner for the family
Making a dent in the mosquito population

I am not interested in:

Hands-on pond management
Trophy fish
Catch & release

I have come up with the following stocking plan for each pond:

Spring 2010:

Farm Raised Fathead Minnows (5lb)
Golden Shiner (25lb)
Redear Sunfish (50)

Fall 2010:

Smallmouth Bass (100)

I know that I will have to build some gravel nests so that the smallmouth bass will be able to reproduce.
I was planning to buy the fish from Keystone Hatcheries in Richmond, IL. But it seems that they will not be delivering to Indiana in 2010.

Here are my questions for all the experienced smallmouth bass pond owners & managers:

Do I have the right stocking plan for my goals?
Any suggestions how to reach my goals in a more efficient manner?
Did I forget something?

And the most important question:

As I will not be able to get the fish delivered from Keystone Hatcheries, where should I order the fish from? Which hatcheries are trustworthy?

All competent advice and suggestions are most welcome.
Thank you very much.
Regards,
FRIZ

Welcome to the forum!

There are lots of guys who can give you great advice on here... Best of luck in your plans.

Friz:

Welcome! Where are you at in Hooserville? I believe Rainman could deliver smallies to you, he made a trip to Pa. with some this Fall.

I share your pain with the water level fluctuations, mine dropped 3' this summer. It would have dropped more, but I ran the well into the pond for a while to keep the level up. Since I drained that pipe for the winter, it's dropped another 8" in the past 2 weeks.

What slope are your pond banks, and what have you planted for erosion control? I'm guessing that they'll bounce from 1 ac to 5/8 ac depending on the time of the year. Like me, if you want to have a dock it'll have to be a floating one due to the water fluctuations. I'm guessing that you probably could go 10x more on the RES stocking, but I'll leave that up to someone that has better knowledge on stocking rates than I have. 50 RES in an acre pond aren't very many, and if you don't release the ones that you catch, they could be wiped out pretty quickly.

What size RES and SMB were you planning on stocking?

Thank you.
Regards,
FRIZ

Hi esshub:

Where are you at in Hooserville?
I am close to Bass Lake. Approximately 30 minutes away from you.
What slope are your pond banks, and what have you planted for erosion control?
The slope is approximately 1/3. What plants are you recommending for erosion control?
If you want to have a dock it'll have to be a floating one due to the water fluctuations.
I am very interested in hearing, maybe seeing, what you recommend.
What size RES and SMB were you planning on stocking?
As big as possible. As I assume that will increase the survival rate and reproduction.

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Howdy Friz.

Jones Fish in Newtown OH would deliver to you and carry all the species you are interested in.

Like Esshup said, let the 50 RES stockers spawn before removing any.

I think you will want your SMB beds at a variety of depths, to cover all the possible water levels they might see at spawning time.

A good GSH population will last few/several years in the face of LMB predation; they might last indefinitely against Smallies.

No, I am close to Bass Lake. Approximately 30 minutes away from you.

That is pretty close, Yep, you are in the yellow gold area of Starke County! If you ever decide to feed, I'm getting my AquaMax from Bar M Feed in Culver.

The slope is approximately 1/3. What plants are you recommending for erosion control?

That's my quandry. I can find plants/seeds of plants to cover water fluctuating up to 24" in depth, but nothing past that unless I want a bunch of cattails around the pond, which I don't. I bought an emergent seed mixture from Spencer Restoration Nursery and I'm thinking of buying some of their lake enhancement system for other areas of the pond.

I am very interested in hearing, maybe seeing, what you recommend.

I'm just going to make a do-it-yourself dock using treated wood and a bunch of 30 gallon plastic drums for floats. It'll be "T" shaped to help with stability. That's this winter's project - the weekly auction (Kankakee Valley Auction) near Walkerton usually has those barrels cheap, between $2 and $5 each.

As big as possible. As I assume that will increase the survival rate and reproduction.

Yes it will. It'll probably be a balancing act between price and size.

Theo:

If FRIZ isn't planning on catch-n-release, how many RES of what size should he stock per acre?

50 6" or better would be enough to get a nice spawn the first year IF they were returned when caught.

This was the first year we fished my new pond after putting 29 RES adults in the Spring of 2008. We caught most all of the adults at least once this year (fishing for RES without a large population of BG present is a whole different ball game - much easier to catch RES without a bunch of BG present IME) and a bunch of yearlings as well.

If he is going to remove RES during the first year, I think I'd want 200 stockers to have at least 50 left after catching and keeping any that were caught.

Don't forget crawdads!
With only 50 RE I would wait to stock the SMB.

Thank you everybody, for your insightful responses.

So if I do not want to spend more money on fish, I will have to catch & release for all of 2010 and most of 2011. Is this correct?

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

You let 50 adult Redears get two years of spawning in, and you should have plenty.

Hi Theo:

Thank you for your advice.

Have you dealt with Jones Fish in Newtown OH personally? Can I assume that there were no negative experiences? Everybody was satisfied with their products and services? I apologize for being so persistent, but I do not have any money to waste.

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Hi Friz and welcome to Pond Boss. Great first post!

Are you going to stock both of your ponds with the same type of fish? The reason that I ask is that many folks that have multiple ponds will use a different mix of fish in each pond. This provides them with a different fishing experience at each pond. For example you can have your SMB/RES/Minnow pond as one pond and perhaps a LMB/BG pond as your second pond. I'm just using LMB/BG as an example, obviously you could choose a completely different mix.

Anyhoo, thanks for posting, we're glad you found us!

Hi jeffhasapond:

I hear you concerning the second pond. But if you keep my goals in mind, I do not think that a LMB/BG pond is a good idea. Do you have any other ideas? I am open to suggestions, but please keep my goals in mind.

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

I have bought fish from Jones on five different occasions for two different ponds. This included 3 truck deliveries and 2 bags via UPS. In all instances, they have delivered as advertised wrt both size and numbers. All fish have been healthy (there were a couple of dead FHM in the last 10 pounds ).

Jones does not have the lowest prices for fish around here, but they will deliver what they agreed to.

Let's let someone that really knows what they are talking about give you an opinion Friz. I'd probably suggest something like a Manatee/Pink Dolphin mix for a swimming pond and the experts would have a conniption over it.

Cecil is in IN and he has raised many different species including several types of trout. Cecil any thoughts about the species of fish that Friz could use in IN that would work keeping his goals in mind?

Thank you very much.
Regards,
FRIZ

How about one big flathead catfish and two alligators?

If the gator numbers got out of control, he could always add a couple tiger muskie.

Or a killer whale.

Let the record show that I was only partially responsible for this thread diversion.

Although the gators will likely get sluggish in the wintertime so the muskie could probably keep them under control.

I think I've bought fish from Jones even more times than Theo, and my neighbor across the street has purchased from them twice. All of my purchases have met their minimum, so the truck has delivered right to the pond. As with Theo, other than a few dead FHM (which they puropsely gave me extra) I've had no problems. I've purchased FHM, GSH, HBG, CC, 12+" Pellet trained LMB, bullfrog tadpoles and Mosquito Fish. They didn't have the Gams when they delivered the fish, so they shipped them no charge.

I second JHAP's suggestion of having each pond with different fish, (although I'm not buying into his stocking suggestions ), but before suggesting what species, I'd like to find out what your definition of "hands-on pond management" is.

i.e.:

You're aerating, while slightly hands on, is something that you don't have to fiddle with on a weekly, or even monthly basis.

Feeding with an automatic feeder that you'd only have to fill once a month? Hands-on or Hands-off?

Stocking one pond with some or all hybrid fish that don't spawn so you have to re-stock on a yearly or bi-yearly basis? Hands-on or Hands-off?

etc.

FRIZ: How frequently would you be fishing in the pond(s), and what is the frequency of dinners that would be caught from the pond (also, how many mouths to feed)? Does the family like catfish?

Fritz,

Given your stated goal of feeding your family and fairly hands-off management, channel catfish might be a good idea for one of your ponds. They probably won't reproduce well, but you could just restock every few years. CC and FHM alone is a fairly common stocking plan, and posters here have mentioned that RES can be added too.

Should you plan to feed fish, hybrid striped bass are another good choice, they'll do well in a pond by themselves if fed.


I do think that you might be overestimating the amount of work that goes into management of LMB. Various members of my family own a handful of ponds in central Texas ranging from .4 to 1 acre in size, and all consistently grew harvestable LMB, CC, and BG for 10 to 25 years with no aeration, little to no feeding, and no stocking after the first year; only ending when a massive drought dried all ponds up. The main goal in managing LMB/BG ponds is in removing LMB to prevent overpopulation, and it sounds as if that hits one of your objectives anyway.

Is this a great place or what?

Hi esshub:

I think I've bought fish from Jones…
Thank you for the recommendation.

You're aerating, while slightly hands on, is something that you don't have to fiddle with on a weekly, or even monthly basis.
You got that one right.

Feeding with an automatic feeder…
I am not interested.

Stocking one pond with some or all hybrid fish that don't spawn so you have to re-stock on a yearly or bi-yearly basis?
This could be a reluctant “maybe”. What do you have in mind?

How frequently would you be fishing in the pond(s), and what is the frequency of dinners that would be caught from the pond (also, how many mouths to feed)?
I would expect to feed 4-6 people once or twice a week.

Does the family like catfish?
NO!

I am looking forward to your recommendations.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Hi txelen:

Thank you for your input. Your idea concerning catfish is interesting, however everybody in my family dislikes catfish. Obviously I know very little about pond management. But I am reluctant; it seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner.

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Does Yellow Perch sound appetizing?
SMB & YP do well togeather.

I find this topic and comments interesting.
Basics: Two one acre ponds. No supplemental feeding. Aerated. Fluctuating water level, NW Indiana.

Goal: How frequently would you be fishing in the pond(s), and what is the frequency of dinners that would be caught from the pond (also, how many mouths to feed)?
I would expect to feed 4-6 people once or twice a week.

Expectation: “seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner”. “Everybody in my family dislikes catfish”.

I don’t think this plan will work. Here is why.
First, I considered the amount of fish it will take to feed 6 people just once a week. I used 0.6 lbs of fish per person which is a relatively a small serving of fish X 6 persons, 52 weeks = 187.2 lbs of fillets. I used a dress out weight of medium bass and BG of about 50% that gives a total fish live weight harvest of 374 lbs. 187/bs per acre. (Dress-out-weight of 50% may be a little high for small sizes.)

IMO in an average IN pond, with no supplemental feeding, and with “average” fertility expect a allowable harvest of 25–60 maybe 80 lbs of live weight fish per acre. IMO a SMB-RES pond will produce on the low end of this scale 20-40 lbs of fish /acre.

I am not sure why FRIZ thinks the SMB/RES/GS are “so much easier to manage”. He does not give his reasons or rationale. IMO someone misled him for some unknown reason. I think the SMB-RES-GS pond will require more management and will produce fewer harvestable fish per acre than a LMB-BG pond. Golden shiner (GS) will not contribute directly to edible fish. Historically the LMB-BG fishery is a standard well researched stocking combination that produced and is capable of providing the most harvestable fish with the least amount of management.

Without fertilization or supplemental feeding the amount of self perpuating fish (higher food chain fish/predators) that can be raised and harvested per acre drops significantly, thus what probably appears as low estimates provided above. Annual pond fertility and resulting fish production are dependant on soils of the watershed. The watershed may cause slightly more of less harvestable fish per acre but IMO not significantly different amounts. If others have differing results please provide your experiences.

Hi Ric Swaim
Thank you for your suggestion. So how is this done? Instead of the Golden Shiner I would add Yellow Perch?
How would the stocking plan look for this pond? How many Yellow Perch instead of the 25lb of Golden Shiner?

Spring 2010:
Farm Raised Fathead Minnows (5lb)
Yellow Perch (???)
Redear Sunfish (50)

Fall 2010:
Smallmouth Bass (100)

Will I have to add Walleye to keep the balance in the pond? Or will the Smallmouth Bass handle it by itself?

Please advise.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Yellow Perch fill a different ecological niche than Golden Shiners.

I've never dealt with SMB in a pond, but it seems that your expectations are really high. You'll probably need to compromise somewhere by feeding, taking fewer fish out, using different species, or some combination thereof.

Regarding catfish, is it a flavor issue, or do they just dislike the idea of catfish? I know some people have an aversion to them as "dirty" fish or something. Maybe if they'd just try some fillets, they'll like it?

In my opinion, and take it with a grain of salt because I don't have experience in your climate or with pond culture of SMB/Walleye, your best bet for generating food per acre is to stock LMB, CC, BG, RES, and FHM; feed occasionally if you have an inexpensive source of Aquamax, and take LMB, CC, and some of the BG for eating occasionally after the second year.


Members with experience growing tilapia:

Might a LMB/BG/Tilapia pond be a good choice for this situation? The tilapia would help convert pond biomass away from flora and into edible LMB/Tilapia, but I'm not sure how effective they would be in his climate.

Bill:

Thanks for an experts input. You touched a lot of bases in a short time!

I was hoping that FRIZ liked CC, and there would only be a few mouths to feed.

IMO, I think he'd do better with a traditional LMB/BG stocking due to the high harvest rates. With that high of a harvest rate, I think he'd be better off with fish that have high fecundity.

txelen, I don't think Tilapia would be any benefit, unless they would take some pressure off of the BG recruitment and allow more of them to grow while feeding the LMB. It's too early to tell if he'll have a FA problem.

With those high harvest rates, I don't think he'll have any overpopulation problems!

In keeping with his goals of swimming in the pond, I wonder if a LMB/RES/GSH pond and a LMB/BG pond would be better suited to his goals? Swim in the LMB/RES pond to reduce any nipping by BG? (although I've never had that problem)

Bill: What do you suggest FRIZ stock that would meet his food goal?

For his present goals I'm not sure what fishery would produce his goals. Probably one that is more herbivore based. BG-RES-YP- bass are all meat eaters and higher on the food chain. At his latitude and without pellet feeding, it will likely take 3 yrs to produce a 7-8" BG and 10-13" bass.
Others with more experience with food production fisheries will have to provide some help here. some sort of Fertilization program may be an option for him since he has a form of "aeration".

esshup- with his goals the LMB RES swimming pond will produce very few harvestable fish compared to LMB-BG-catfish.

There are only a very few ways to get that harvest rate and they all involve feeding. The species would be CC , tilapia and possibly HSB. Even with feeding it will be hard to get a LMB/BG pond to produce in those amounts. You would have to run the pond at a very high density with lots of feeding to have a chance for those rates.

Cody agrees with ewest.

Thank you everybody for your insightful responses.

Are you guys trying to tell me that I want to eat too much fish?
Also, why can’t the kids go swimming if Bluegill Sunfish are in the pond?

Please clarify.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Not that you eat too much fish... Just that 2 ponds totaling 2 acres may not able to to sustain that amount of harvest it would require to keep up with your demands. Particularly if you use SMB/RES...

How about common carp? When raised in clean waters they are actually very good eating IMO. They are fast growing, high fecundity and will meet your demands... The rest of the world uses them for a reason. Us Americans just decided long ago we were too good for them.

As far as bluegills causing an issue in swimming ponds it because they have a tendency to nip at swimmers. It isn't really painful, but more of an annoyance...

On the topic of carp, one of my top fishing memories of all time was catching a 12" goldfish in a pond at a park near my house when I was 5-6 years old. People would dump their unwanted pet fish into it, I guess that's how it got there.

That fish sure seemed big at the time.

Just a thought. FRIZ, are those 6 people all adults, or are there smaller kids in the mix? If there were, then Bills #'s might be on the high side for now, but they'll change as the kids get bigger. I'm not talking about teenagers, I think they eat more than adults! It's not that you want to eat too many fish, it's just a wee bit too much for the size of the water to grow them in without more of a "hands-on" approach.

Also, there will probably be several weeks or months where fish will not be taken due to ice, spawning, or people simply being tired of eating fish.

Looks like all the guys with the knowledge are chiming in. I will just chime in to say hi.

Comment of: "Also, there will probably be several weeks or months where fish will not be taken due to ice, spawning, or people simply being tired of eating fish."
Just becasue one does not or is not able to fish due to reasons stated and numerous other reasons does not mean that fish can not be eaten once a week or twice a week. Fish do freeze well and if done properly can be caught, cleaned, frozen and eaten at a much later date. Many anglers stock up on fish while the catching is available or good. Then later they enjoy regular meals of fish.

Two good methods of freezing fresh fish are the new home variety of vacuum sealing/packaging devices or freezing fish pieces immersed in water in plastic freezer bags. With these methods fish will not freezer burn, will not develop off flavors from freezer odors and will stay in great condition for several years if kept frozen.

ALSO back to another topic Friz stated: ""it seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner."" Can someone explain the rationale of this statement?. Is there any truth to this or is it a myth or just the sales pitch of a fish salesman pushing RES, SMB, & GS? This could be a whole new topic.

Bill:

You mentioning freezing fish in water brings back memories. My grandmother would de-scale, behead and gut panfish, put them in a 1/2 gallon milk carton (remember those) and freeze them. Since my grandfather passed away when I was a little kid, I was tasked with catching fish for her every weekend. We'd bring them back to her in 1/2 gallon or 1 gallon milk cartons. The lake house was 1 1/2 to 2 hr from home.

I freeze fillets in ziplock bags with water (and as little air as possible) every year. They taste fine several months later and are very hard to tell apart from fresh when I am cooking a mix of the two types.

Alright:

So I will have to cut down on the expected consumption of fish for the family. And if I decide to take your recommendation and dedicate one pond to Largemouth Black Bass & Bluegill Sunfish, would the following stocking plan be appropriate?

Spring 2010:

Bluegill Sunfish
2-4" (150)
4-6" (100)
6-8" (50)
Redear Sunfish
2-4" (25)
4-6" (25)

Fall 2010:

Largemouth Black Bass
3-4" (40)
5-7" (35)
8-10" (25)

Would this Largemouth Black Bass & Bluegill Sunfish pond conform to my goals?
Could I start fishing in the summer of 2011 or would I have to wait till 2012?



Please advise.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Too many large bass too soon, IMO. You need forage for them when they are put in; a 10" LMB will be looking for 3" BG/RES to eat, and he closest to what he wants may easily be the smaller initial sunfish stockers.

I would definitely add about 10 lbs of FHM to the spring stocking, to multiply small fish quickly and provide initial forage for the LMB.

Also, that's a 3.5:1 bream:bass ratio, which is OK IMHO if you want to be bass heavy and concentrate on fewer, larger BG/RES.

P.S. Does the family like fried potatoes? They go great with fish and will extend you fish supply while filling everyone up.

Theo:

I know that there is a possibility of GSH competing with the YOY BG, but what do you think of adding 5# of 3" or so GSH to each pond to help take some predation pressure off of the BG?

FRIZ; FWIW, it takes 10# of food (i.e. forage fish) to put one # of weight on each LMB.

I know it goes against his hands-off management goal, but feeding the fish would help his other goals a bunch!

For food production management, I personally wouldn't put GSH in.

I tend to agree with Theo. Friz doesn't seem to be interested in growing larger bass (16+") thus shiners are not needed or IMO useful. Shiners will consume food items, contribute biomass and are not edible as panfish/food source. IMO Friz should stick with edible fish to more fully and more efficiently utilize the pond's productivity. HIs ponds are remote and feeding is not a desired option for him. He will have constant problems with interlopers, even with watchful neighbors, once the fishery becomes attractive. Many here know how very hard it is to keep free loader anglers out of their ponds.

Initial stocking, I would omit the 8"-10" LMB and use the money to buy more smaller BG and maybe 50-200 papershell crayfish. He will definately be eating more BG than bass. Use NO pond dye, that will suppress fish production. After several years I thnk Friz will get a real education as to how many fish (BG-LMB) can be harvested annually from a one acre pond with out fertilization and supplimental feeding. Ponds are not limitless as many people mistakenly think.

First of all, interesting thread we have here. Getting down to the basics of pond management which, as a new pondmeister I find fascinating.

From the start of this thread, I too wondered about the logic behind the idea of a SMB pond being easier to manage than a LMB pond, since from the little research I've done since getting the 'pond bug', I've read the opposite. A LMB/BG pond is supposed to be the easiest to manage.

Thinking a little outside the box here, but what about crappie? In small pond they tend to overpopulate, correct? But with the expected high harvest rates, wouldn't that actually be beneficial to his goals? And a predator can be added to keep them better in check of course. And obviously very good table fare as well. Just throwing that in the mix.

Since Crappie are primarily predators, adding another species towards the top of the food chain would lower the total edible pounds of fish that could be harvested each year IMO.

The problem with crappie is when they overpopulate, you end up with a gazillion crappie about three inches long and thin enough you can almost see through them, in other words far too small and puny to eat. They overload the carrying capacity of the BOW to the extent that they don't grow at all; the only way to get them bigger is to remove the majority of the gazillions from the pond. It would be akin to throwing a can of gasoline on a campfire to make it burn a little hotter.

Walt what are your opinions about this optimization of the food production goal? How is it best accomplished IYO? Any others with some possible ideas that are reading this thread?

Bill/Theo:

I see now (and understand) why you recommend no GSH. Once the pond is stocked, and he starts fishing, should there be an upper slot limit size on the BG to keep some bigger breeders in the pond? (bigger breeders = more eggs per nest) Any slot size limit on LMB?

I was thinking of the LMB/RES pond (stocking rates of RES higher than normal) to minimize the nipping problem that's been reported with BG.

Bill, I would agree with you and others who have observed that Friz probably won't be able to achieve his goals, with a pond that small, without supplemental feeding, or at the very least fertilization (and I know the latter can cause problems with winter kill at that latitude). I also agree that a LMB/BG stocking combination would require less management than others, and would provide more food for the table. If Friz got one of the Texas Hunter feeders that has a 215-lb. capacity of floating fish food, he could conceivably fill it once a month and still feed the fish several times a day during peak periods, and during slower feeding periods he would only have to fill it once every couple months. And of course at his latitude I'm guessing he would only be feeding eight or so months out of the year anyway, so that's five or six instances a year of management work, not a lot by my estimation. I would make both ponds LMB/BG to get the most production; he could put a feeder on one and fertilize one, ceasing the fertilization the first of August so by the time ice arrives the plankton bloom (possibly? I know this would happen in TN but I don't live in IN and haven't seen his pond to know how fertile it is, what the soil is like, etc.) will have dissipated enough to lessen the chance of a winter kill, or just put feeders on both. Beginning the second year, I would keep maybe ten pounds of bass a year, and 100 pounds of bluegill a year, per pond - if feeding or fertilizing, as obviously those numbers would go down greatly without management and the concomitant increased carrying capacity. That comes to 220 pounds of fish per year, which is a lot of fish meals.

Any data on HSB, mosquito fish, and fatheads in an unfed pond?

Just an idea:
You'd have to restock HSB periodically but overall it would seem seem easier to manage since they won't reproduce. Since HSB would be the top predator and have fairly small mouths for their size, smaller/less expensive HSB could be added to replenish those removed. HSB put up a heck of a fight, are easy to clean, and are quite tasty. Fluctuating water levels wouldn't effect the forage fish much either. If growth of the HSB is less than needed, pellets could be an option later.

Walt:

His two ponds are within 25 miles of me, and his soil type is very similar to mine. Some clay, with lots of very yellow sand, minimal organics in the sandy soil. His ponds are dug, groundwater ponds as well, and if like mine, they will see a lot of water flow underground, because they are dug into the water table. There is minimal clay in the area, and it would be too costly to truck enough in to correctly line the pond (s). This past summer, I saw at least two, more likely 3 distinct blooms, each lasting for a couple of weeks in my pond. (renovated, i.e. re-dug 90% of the bottom in summer 2008, went from 7' max to 22' max) I think it might be due to subterraneum water flow in/out of the pond.

My neighbor across the street has a dug, groundwater pond, dug 9-2008, probably 1/3 ac. Rex saw it, maybe he'll chime in on the size as well. My neighbor has 100 HBG 6", maybe a dozen LMB to 12", and 100 CC 14"-16" in the pond. He started aerating late Spring 2009, and once he got rid of the tame ducks he had, his clarity is 30" or so, with a pretty good FA problem. He hand feeds with generic floating catfish food from Tractor Supply by hand 1x day - close to 1 coffee can/day.

Point being, I think without fertilization, I think FRIZ won't be able to sustain a photoplankton bloom thick enough to keep water clarity between the magic numbers, and his fish producing capacity will suffer.

In regards to feeding, here's my experience in my pond.
I'm really not sure of how many BG are in my pond, after an almost 100% fish kill during the winter of 2003/2004, I stocked close to 1,000 6"-9" BG (90% or greater Males) in 2005 (before I knew about PB). Late in the summer of 2005, I found out that I shouldn't have stocked that many, and had friends come over for a serious weekend of fishing. We removed about half of them before winter set in. Now, like I said, keep in mind that those were 90% Males. How many BG are in the pond now? I did stock 100 6"-9" CC Spring of 2009, and there should be maybe 50 16+" CC from the previous year's stocking and 4 CC 25+". The pond is LMB lite, I only stocked a dozen between 14" and 16" in 2006, plus 4 more 12+" pellet trained LMB from Jones in Spring 2009. I have been stocking between 10-15## FHM and 10#-15# GSH 2x year. There is minimal cover in the pond, no weeds, 6 porcupine fish attractors 5' dia and a couple 10"-12" tall fruit trees. I've only removed 2 LMB, 50-80 BG between 7"-9" and as many CC as I could.

I'm saying this because of what I'm seeing when I feed. I have an ADF75, set to throw food for 1 to 3 seconds per feeding, 2 to 3 times a day, depending on the time of the year and water temp. I normally start/stop feeding when water temps are in the mid to low 50's - that's when the fish stop feeding. I've gone thru a total of 200# of AquaMax 500/600 this year feeding the BG/LMB/CC. I will adjust the amount of feed thrown so that there is minimal food floating on the water 15 minutes after the feeder stops throwing the food. I live on the property, and know that the feeder was working the whole feeding season. Am I using less feed due to low BG numbers, the BG having more natural food & are feeding less on the pellets, are they not feeding agressively because they weren't raised on pellets, or ??

I don't want to dilute FRIZ's thread, but I'm sorta trying to tie in my feeding scenario into his pond thread to get a handle on how much he actually would be feeding if he decides to feed. I rarely catch a BG less than 6" (pond record is 11"), and all the LMB that I'm catching are over 100 WR.

Esshup keep at it as it sounds like you are on track. May need to start keeping a few of the CC. With large inflows and outflows it can be very difficult to keep a plankton bloom going.

The feeding amounts I estimated are very much on the high side, the maximum he could expect to feed with very aggressive bluegill that take to the food very well. Bluegill from a hatchery should take to pellet food pretty well, especially if he buys intermediates or larger. I go through a lot of food because most of the BOWs I'm managing at the moment are overpopulated with bluegill so the bluegill really go after the food. But certainly I've seen ponds where the bluegill are less crowded and they don't feed as aggressively, a scenario which would require less food.

So he easily could get through two or even three months or more with 215 lbs. of food and still have very good growth of the fish. I don't doubt that your fish are growing well on 200 lbs. of food for an entire season. I'm just feeding some tightly-packed-in bluegill.

How big is your pond? It could very well be that there's lots of natural food in it for them.

"blooms" ????????????????????????

I still think common carp are the way to go... There is a reason the rest of the world uses them! If you are trying to crank out pounds of fish to eat common carp are it. My dad's best friend who is a complete survivalist the end of the world is coming sort of guy has 4 ponds on his property. He raises common carp in one. There was 14 people living on his "compound" lots of mouths to feed and the carp keep up with the demand.

But if you don't like eating carp, you don't like eating carp... I have to say, when from a clean BOW they are good eating. He also has a LMB/BG pond, a CC/FHM pond and a trout pond.

esshub is correct with his assessment.



I am starting to get confused…

So let me ask a few simple questions:

Can I establish a pond with Largemouth Black Bass/Bluegill Sunfish/ Redear Sunfish? And a second pond with Smallmouth Bass/Golden Shiner/Redear Sunfish?
Can I “occasionally” remove some fish for consumption?
Can the kids go swimming in the ponds?
Will the fish in the ponds make a “small” dent in the mosquito population?
If I do not want to feed or fertilize, will the fish population be self sustained and grow “slowly”?
Tell me more about the “common carp”. Can they thrive in a Smallmouth Bass and/or Largemouth Black Bass pond? Or do they need a designated pond? How many to stock? Where to buy?

Please clarify.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Friz,

The term "bloom" refers to the presence of microscopic algae in the pond called phytoplankton. When the phytoplankton grow fast and persist, it is called blooming- much like flowers bloom. Afterall, we are talking about plants. Blooms are important becasue they are the base of the food chain. Microscopic animals called zooplankton feed on the blooms, which are then fed on by insects and small fish and then on up on the food chain.

Your goals of wanting significant harvest will be difficult if not impossible to achieve without creating blooms by fertilizing or by using artificial feeds. This isn't to say that you can't have a nice pond, but wihout a significant "base", you won't be able to grow fish quickly nor will you be able to create and sustain the total poundage (biomass) of fish in the pond as you could by being more agressive with fertilizing or feeding.

Your fish can still get big, but it will take longer. You can still sustain a fishery, but your overall numbers will likely be low. You can absolutely occassionally remove fish. I would have no problem swimming in your ponds, but the folks here are right that sunfish will nibble at you, especially if you have moles on your skin!! Trust me! I wouldn't expect too many mosquitoes with the presence of just about any fish species.

It's too bad your ponds aren't in an area with more soil fertility, but it is what it is. The important thing is that you are doing your homework now and there are so many people on this forum willing to give their advice/opinions. It sounds to me like you are going to have an enjoyable pond, but just know without any supplemental management (given your soil fertility) that you are not going to be able to have a fish producing factory. Sounds like you will be O.K. with this. Do know that you can change this scenario with a fertilization/and or feeding program. Things will just be slow otherwise.

Thank you Shawn Banks.
Regards,
FRIZ

How about combining Omaha's & Ryan Freeze's ideas & put in Crappie & HSB with Gams & FH?

Since he is wishing to save $ on the initial stocking IMO all forage should be put in a year in advance of preditors esp. crawfish if SMB is in the mix.



Friz,
There are others here much better at advising on numbers to stock & I defer to them.
I don't think Walleye are needed to help SMB but as a non reproducing & good eating fish they could be added or even substituted for such as HSB offers you've had.
Bill Cody & others are the guys to pay attention to not me. I just like to offer opinions esp. when BC ask for them.

If you have a LMB-BG pond and a SMB-RES pond, swimming will be best in the SMB pond - guaranteed. Plan to use SMB pond for the swimming; esp for the females.
Generally SMB pond will grow fewer fish to eat and they will grow a little slower than fish in the LMB pond. This is because usu. SMB reproduce less and grow slower than LMB. RES in SMB pond also reproduce less than BG resulting in fewer available fish to eat.

Keep in mind that a SMB pond can very easily be converted to a LMB pond just by adding LMB and or BG. But one cannot make a successful thriving SMB pond from a LMB pond without removing all the LMB.

Ponds with small fish (1"-2") rarely have a mosquito problem. Mosquitos are VERY vulnerable to small fish predation. Mosquitos present will come from other wet areas often sometimes miles away.

Basically if you don't fertilize nor feed the fish, the ponds will not grow as many fish, nor will they grow as fast, and often, larger fish will be fewer in numbers. Generally fertilization and Pellet feeding equals more fish and bigger fish; often 2-5 times more fish - depending on circumstances.

Common carp & koi - Cyprinus carpio are imports and exotics in the US from Europe-Germany. They are omnivores eating a wide variety of living and dead plants and animals which allows them to exist on a wide variety of foods. This allows them to always find something to eat, thus always growing. They feed lower on the food chain than panfish and predators. This also allows more of them in terms of pounds of biomass per acre to grow on the natural foods produced by a pond. Carp are essentially bottom feeders eating stuff associated with the bottom sediments - on and in the mud.

They have a sucker like mouth and usually feed by rooting in the sediments for food items -roiling the water as they feed. Ponds with a fair number of carp 20-30/ac are always muddy looking. The more carp the muddier the pond gets due to the constant feeding actviity. Carp do not have stomachs so they cannot binge feed and cannot store food for several days between feedings like bass and panfish. Thus carp and koi need to feed regularly keeping sediments stirred and water mucky.

AS CJBS says carp are pretty good eating when harvested from cleaner, non-polluted waters which is why they were brought into the US from Europe. They are in the minnow family so they have a few more bones compared to bass, catfish and panfish.

Before stocking carp, hybrid striped bass (HSB) or any other fish you have never eaten I HIGHLY suggest you eat one before stocking it.

Ewest, I'm keeping every one that I catch (well 'cept for the 4 biggest ones - I know they were there, because I handled all 4 when the pond was renovated). I caught one of them this Spring on a 5" floating Rapala. It was fun getting the 25" 14.5# CC in on 4# test line! After weighing and measuring, I slipped one of Gregs' numbered floy tags in it. So far I haven't seen it, nor it's 3 other rather largish buddies.

The ones that were stocked Spring 2009 all had the adiopse fin clipped off. I'm trying to get a handle on the growth rates.

FRIZ: Photoplankton blooms. The clarity of the water gets less, and it gets greener, or browner depending on the type of plankton that is growing. Photoplankton are the building blocks that the pond's live inhabitants are grown on. Ideally, I shoot for 18" - 24" readings on a Secchi disk.

Thank you esshup.
Regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ:

Bill Cody said it all. To paraphrase him, the answer to your first 4 questions is YES. Common carp are in all the local lakes and rivers. They'll get to 30+ lbs locally, and can be put in just about any body of water (BOW). Now, once they are in, they are a real pain in the arse to remove without killing the whole pond, and there's no guarantee even then. If you want to try some carp, let me know and I can catch some for you out of Koontz Lake, usually with a day's notice. To me, they're MUCH worse than CC for table fare. I've tried them smoked, and they were still soft. I much prefer Buffalo to Carp. They are fun to catch, but personally, I don't like them for table fare, cooked like you would a LMB, BG or CC. Here's a picture of one that my nephew caught earlier this year:


CJ: I'll let you take it from here on where to buy and what size/how many to stock.

Thank you very much.
Regards,
FRIZ

Some of the commercial fisherman at Lake Erie will take carp they net from the lake, put them in a pond and feed them field corn for 1-3 weeks. Then seine then out and ship them to NY for eager fresh fish buyers. One guy near me in the open water season regularly drives a fish truck from WI to NY hauling fresh carp.

Hi Bill Cody:

A few out-of-the-box questions please:

Would it be feasible to have a Smallmouth Bass/Yellow Perch pond?

In a Smallmouth Bass/Golden Shiner/Redear Sunfish pond, could one drastically increase Redear Sunfish (from 50 to 300)?



Could one have a Redear Sunfish/Yellow Perch pond with just a few Smallmouth Bass?

Please forgive if my questions should be silly.
Regards,
FRIZ

I won't speak for the experts here, but if I could chime in I believe having just a few of the bigger teeth (SMB), you'll end up with too many stunted RES and YP.

EDIT: And FRIZ, don't worry about asking "silly" or "too many" questions. I'm about as new as you are to this and those questions simply don't exist in this forum.

Thank you Omaha:
Regards,
FRIZ

The reason my dad's friend chose common carp for his one pond was they produce lots and lots of food to eat. He has the survival mode in mind and wants an easy to raise fish that'll feed him and his family without any worries of production or survival. He doesn't supplement them with any feed nor fertilizes the pond. But if you don't like eating carp, there is no point in raising them unless you are truly looking at them as a survival type thing... The pond is around an acre and probably has 300-500 carp in it depending on the time of year. I am not sure why, but the water doesn't get muddy. Perhaps it is a bottom material, I don't know but the water is usually quite clear, 3-4' clarity. However, compared to his trout and LMB/BG pond, it is less clear.

There you go, Friz - stock carp, and you will have more fish than your family can (or, at least, will) eat.

I would like to see a 1 acre pond with 300-500 adult carp and water clarity at 4ft. Although I do not consider 3-4ft of visibility as quite clear. Quite clear water for me is 6-8ft.

It should be noted that many people don't like the taste of carp; they're still regarded by many as a rough fish. I have never eaten one but have heard numerous people express a less-than-gourmand experience with them. And, as has been noted already, they have more bones than a bass or a bluegill, and thus require more skill to clean, and also increase the chance one will encounter bones while eating.

Filleting them, making sure to take out the dark vein of meat along the lateral line, then grinding the fillets will take care of the bones. Fish cakes anyone? I still don't like 'em (to eat, they're a blast to catch).

FRIZ, are SMB of high personal prioty? Don't get me wrong, they're near the top of my personal favorite fish for sport but don't seem well suited for the primary goal of food production.

HSB are very mild, similar in taste and texture to tilapia. They are a common commercial food fish. Meijer's sells them whole around here in the fresh seafood area.

Here's one my daughter caught a couple of years after stocking. Hand fed once per day fairly consistently Spring to fall. If growing fish for food, ease of management, and sport and if channel catfish are out of the question, then I can't think of a better species choice than HSB. It would take quite a few BG or RES to yield equal pounds of meat as one HSB.



Since swimming is a priority, I would guess that clear water would be desired. Fertilizing will likely increase growing capactiy but will turn the water green and reduce visability. Feeding will also increase fertility indirectly but less so if fed at reasonable rates.

Thank you Ryan Freeze:
Regards,
FRIZ

If he's going to feed, a LMB/BG pond would require less management, and definitely a lot less money, long term than HSB because the latter would have to be replaced by yearly stockings, while the bluegill and bass will self-perpetuate once stocked and not require any supplemental stocking. Also, bluegill will be more dependable day in and day out in terms of catchability than HSB, significantly so for the average angler.

Because of the above reasons I will stick to my original plan.



Thank you everybody for your input.
Regards,
FRIZ

Good Luck with your ponds. Please come back occassionally and report here your experiences. Let us know how good our advice was to you. We can also help with varioius pond problems as they arise. And they will arise.

Hi Bill Cody:

Thank you for all your advice. I will be around, and ask a lot of questions. Also, I will definitely stay in touch with my “neighbors” esshub and Cecil Baird 1.

Merry Christmas,
FRIZ

Friz, it sure would be good to hear an update on this thread. It is pushing a few years now. Have any of your plans changed to meet goals yet?