Folks,
This is an area specific question, but I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me.

I'm the proud owner/builder of a new pond in the Northern Sacramento Valley of CA. Being a new pond owner, I'm trying to get up to speed on the availability of LMB, RES, BG, CC, etc hatcheries in my area and/or the ability to mail order from outside the state. I know that CA has some stringent stocking laws and a recent law suit has apparently has made things tougher on hatcheries and pond owners alike. From what I've read previously on the DFG website, I don't need a stocking permit for the afore mentioned species in my particular county (Butte), so my question is this. Are there hatcheries in my area that I can get LMB (specifically F1's), RES, BG and CC? And will I have to register with the state due to the recent lawsuit? And finally, If I can't get these species close to home, will people ship fish to CA from other parts of the country?

I don't have anything to hide, but at the same time, I don't like the idea of submitting to random inspections by the state. Kind of like gun registry....once you register, then they know where to find you.

Thanks for the input.
DD

Welcome to the forum, Dude.

[I can't believe I actually got to call someone "Dude". Hey Sunil, am I cool or what?]

Seriously, welcome-we've got some great members from California, who can no doubt shed some light on your questions, as they've done a fair bit of stocking themselves. At least one is off line for a bit, so be patient...

I'm not from California but your DFG should have a list of private hatcheries and locations, whether it is on line, or you have to request it.

I've tried to get fish from a guy in Sacramento. I won't share his name because I've called him about 7 times and he's never returned my calls. Maybe you should make friends with your neighbors that have ponds

I know where he can get some GSF.


Here's some info I found.
http://www.proaqua.com/lake-pond-stocking

I personally would say skip the proaqua company - their prices on BG and RES are nothing short of outrageous, and especially considering they don't even sell coppernose bluegill, you can do better than that. I just checked to make sure, and Suttle Fish Farms out of MS ships fish; they only ship smaller sizes so you'd probably have to go with fingerlings, but two major advantages to them for you would be 1) their prices are a fraction of proaqua and 2) they sell Florida and F-1 bass, as well as coppernose bluegill, all three of which grow to monstrous sizes in your state and which you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to have, IMHO:

http://www.suttlefish.com/

They also mention that they do live delivery to anywhere in the U.S. for larger orders. Unless you have a large pond and don't mind spending a small fortune, that might not be an option; but if you've got plenty of dough and need several fish, it sounds from their website like they'd truck them right to you.

Look at these 2 threads and contact DIED or JHAP for more info.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=2413&Number=26193#Post26193

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=8061&Number=83328#Post83328

I don't know if any of the southern species will work, it gets pretty chilly in that area.

I think I'd find something local. Overnight shipping from those places would be a deal killer for me if I lived in California. I ship frozen fish ground out there from Indiana and it's a killer. JMO of course.

Overnight shipping is costly... It made my lake chubsuckers go from $1 a piece to $4.25 a piece!

I regularly ship Tilapia to Cali. FWIW, I air freight same-=day deliveries up to 100 pounds per container to LAX and Burbank for $250-$350 per 100#. With Bass and the sunfish, 50 pounds per container would be close to the max due to much higher oxygen demands. The CC couldn't be over 4 inches or the spines would pop the bags, but shippable weights are close to 100 pounds per container. All my shipments have been inspected and approved by the California Dept. of Agriculture.

Duckdude, if you type into a google search the phrase "2009 REGISTERED AQUACULTURISTS" you will get an adobe report that lists all of the registered fish suppliers by county. I have found that these suppliers will know what regulations will apply to you.

DIED and I are in El Dorado county. We used "Freshwater Fish Company" in Elk Grove, very nice guy. His business is currently for sale though.

Thanks guys for the help.
DD

No problemo DD. Any update on your pond?

JHAP,
No update other than, I'm working on the engineering of the solar pumping plant that I'll be installing and the pond is slowly beginning to fill from the recent rains that we've had here.

The pond is a 1.25 acres and averages 6 feet deep with a few spots 10-12' or so. I've put in around 35 standing dead timbers, stumps and logs (lots of work with a post hole digger!) as well as two truck and trailer loads of boulders and river rock. I also added a couple of manzanita bushes and quite a bit of gravel for spawning beds etc.

I transplanted somewhere around 15 hard stem bulrush clumps (tules) also. They're pretty small so I'll likely fertilize them to get them going.

All in all I tried to put in as many different types of structure (channels, submerged humps, drop offs, ridges, verticle banks, etc)that I could fit into this size pond.

It's always been my dream to build my own pond in my backyard and I'm totally stoked to see it finally come to fruition.

I can't wait to sit in the back yard with a margarita and watch my girls (6 yrs, 4 yrs and 10 mons)catch fish after fish!

Bring on the rain!!!
DD

First off. Thanks to everyone for the good suggestions. Well my rain dance seems to have worked wonders! If I was smart I'd really start wishing to win the state lottery!

The pond has gone from a trickle of water to nearly full in a week and a half.

I've talked to many of the local aquaculturists (some of which have been mentioned here) and have had mixed responses. Most places are pretty spendy compared to fish from other states ($3/fish for a 2"-4" LMB,BG and RES). I need to take a look at the cost of out of state shipping to see if it's a better deal.

Also, the local selection is mostly limited to northern LMB, CC and BG.

One of the most expensive places says that they do have Florida largemouths (which I'd like to have) and Florida bluegills which they claim are way better than the other strain of bluegills. I'm not sure about this and the information that I've gathered so far doesn't confirm this.

Maybe someone else can shed some light on these?

Of course the locals also recommend a much higher stocking rate than I've seen mentioned here, which drives the cost up even more.

So I guess I'm still shopping around.
DD

hi duckdude,
did you get the aquaculturalist list ok? it seems they dont keep it updated very well as many places i called back in 2006 either didnt return calls or were out of business. the freshwater fish co that jhap and i used had northern lmb, res, bg, and spotted lmb, in addition to bunch of other things you probably dont want in the pond, but i'm not sure he's still in business.

if you end up needing fish shipped to you, i would pm todd overton, he will probably make as good a deal as you could get.

the florida strain bg are probably coppernose (cnbg) and they are extremely impressive when grown in good conditions.

how will you keep yer pond full over the summer?

also, i apologize if i didnt see this earlier, but what are yer goals for the pond? depending on what they are, you wont need to stock high numbers of things to develop an awesome fishing hole in a year or two.

Duckdude, you're probably too far north for Fla. LMB and CNBG to thrive; sorry that I missed your specific area of the state when I made my previous post. Those two strains do fantastic in southern CA and grow to monstrous sizes, but that's several hours south of you - completely my mistake, I just didn't take the time to notice what part of the state you're in.

Northern-strain LMB and bluegill would likely do better in your region.

if biggs is where i think it is (up above yuba city) florida lmb and cnbg should do just fine. there is a thermal belt along the east side of the central valley (i call it the toehills) where all types of citrus is grown. it rarely freezes, and when it does it doesnt last long. its probably very rare that a pond would even get ice around the edges let alone freeze over but duckdude could speak to this better than i.

In that case, I'd say go for it! Coppernose have been caught out of multiple CA lakes well over three pounds, within the past fifteen years, including some in the past couple years; and of course several of the biggest LMB of all time, all of them Fla.'s, have come from the state in the past twenty or so years.

There are a couple of hatcheries where I am at in Nor Cal. Problem is they are not very user friendly, and barely advertise. Problem #2, they do not have your desired species. They most have baitfish, sturgeon, trout and catfish. I think most of the better ones were regulated to death and either sold, folded or just left for greener pastures, no pun intended. I have Fla strain exclusively in one of my ponds. But without dna testing that could mean anything as even FLA LMB have some mixed genes these days. I bet smallies would thrive there. I have the same exact problems, the fish cost more to ship than the fish themselves. I might be able to help you, in fact I know I can. Where do you want to start?

Sorry guys. I was just sure that everyone knew exactly where Biggs is

I'm located in the Sacramento Valley, about an hour north of Sacramento. The elevation here is about 90 feet above sea level and we seldom drop below freezing.

I have talked to the guy from Freshwater Fish Co. in Elk Grove (I think I interrupted his vacation in Hawaii). Understandably he was very short on the phone, but it sounded like he was still in business, but only had northern strain LMB, RES and was vague about his BG. When I asked about Florida LMB and his subspecies of BG he got a little defensive.

Anyway, I'll check with Overton and see what they can do.
Thanks

PS. I agree with Pond Frogs assessment of Norcal fish hatcheries. Customer service seems a little lacking here.

Oh yeah, as for the goals of the pond. I'm probably looking for as good as a trophy bass fishery as I can get out of a pond of my size. I'd like to have enough BG and RES to keep my kids happy and to feed my bass. Monster BG are not the goal, but would be welcome.

The CC and maybe a few winter time rainbows would be more of a put and take type of thing.

You should be able to grow very large bluegill even with focusing on the bass; something you might consider would be stocking a couple tiger muskie to keep the small bass thinned along with the smaller bluegill (recommended in a recent PB article). Feeding the bluegill with an automatic feeder will make a big difference, both for them providing the bass with more forage and growing larger themselves.

I would suggest skipping catfish if you think you might use a feeder, as they'll hog most of the food and physically knock the bluegill out of the way when they (CC) get larger so the bluegill don't get much of it.

I think California Dept. of Fish and Game would freak over Tiger Muskies coming in. The've recently spent 10's of millions of dollars trying to eradicate northern pike from a lake not far from here(two different times).

I do plan on feeding the fish and the channel catfish would be fished heavily as we love to eat em.
DD

in a pond that size, the catfish may become hard to catch....keep that in mind, ask catmandoo about it.

some additional 2c.......if you can afford it, build another pond just for catfish (and gsf :D), and dont mix the cats w/ the bass/bg pond.

yer right that the dept. of F&G would freak over muskies. i wish tilapia were readily available and "legal". if you want big bass, i would pursue getting a permit to stock tilapia.

Ha Lake Davis, you want to see a typical government Chinese fire drill, that was it. Rotenone the entire lake, kill lake , kill local economy, oops pike still there. Somebody sabotaged them and put them back in, no they were just upstream and you are basically another incompetent government agency trying to blame incompetence on unknown source. Kill everything again, hope for best. What a fiasco.

I know that guy in Elk Grove, not exactly Mr. Happy. I ask him some basic questions and he gets all bent out of shape for no reason. Then I only do commercial business. I decided not to deal with him because if he talked like that in person I'd walk away pissed off. I think he is the new owner as the old one sold.

I'd start off with bg and channel cats in same pond. I'd wait til next season for bass. You should contact me.

First off, thanks for the update Duckdude!




Yep that is the guy that DIED and I purchased our fish from. He is a "different" sort of fellow (I know, I know, children who live in glass houses...) but IMHO had good quality fish at reasonable prices. DIED and I both tried contacting several fish farms, most either don't answer their phone or won't return phone calls. Stocking fish in Northern California can be quite frustrating.

So the Freshwater Fish Co did in fact sell?

"stocking a couple tiger muskie to keep the small bass thinned along with the smaller bluegill (recommended in a recent PB article)"

Was that suggested as a part of an initial stocking of a pond?

If we are talking about the same place. I had 6 right around my area. Two folded, one changed operators and practically got shut down by the state, rightfully so. The best one was a striped bass and sturgeon place, got robbed, then state said stripers were eating salmon and stopped stocking them and they went out of business. One is still buzzin along and one was on the market for sale I think after owner passed, Freshwater Fish Co. It got pulled off the market and the new operator is not being nominated for Mr. Congeniality.

I could find out the exact circumstances. They may have been taken over by a Canadian Coporation. I can barely get anything locally any longer. Baitfish, catfish and sturgeon. I have some pond maintenance down that way within a couple of weeks. I'll visit two and post my findings here.

Sounds like my experiences with the local aquaculturists is pretty much the status quo. If CA wasn't so lawsuit/permitting happy, then maybe more of the reputable guys could stay in business. It's amazing that it's easier to get sturgeon for a pond than bass, bluegills and redears!

Because of the frustrations that come with talking directly to these people, I've begun asking them all if they have a website that I could visit. My thinking is that then I won't really know how caustic the person is that I'm dealing with and I won't feel bad about sending them my business. The problem is that out of the eight or so that I've spoke to only two have websites.

Now, I'm no wiz at business, but I would think that this would be the most important way of getting my name out there. Without the poorly updated list from DFG how do people find these guys?

I'm convinced that this pond business is only for the tough skinned and hard headed!
DD

You are walking in my old worn out shoes. In my almost vast experience dealing with these guys in California, up North, they are allergic to the web, hate being bothered on the phone and don't want business. Yes, that State of Cal list is very outdated. The best way for me is just to directly stop in and say hello. I have found in person the people tend to be a bit friendlier rather than thinking you are jerking them around on the phone wasting thier valuable time. And employees are far easier to deal with then people who answer the phone. I need some fish also, as always. I'll visit two and get availability, prices, contact info, whatever I can Mr. Duck. I also have duck club customers who I make dec weights for and we are going to start millet planting this season.

Pond Frog,
Thanks for the help. We California pond guys need to form support group!

By the way, are you doing Jap Millet or watergrass? In my "real" life, I'm a wildlife biologist with the government. I work on the restoration and enhancement of private land habitats in the north valley. I mostly work on wetlands (duck clubs), since that's what I'm surrounded by.

We may have crossed paths at some point.
DD

We are going to try a mixed millet blend. There are some hybrids that supposedly outperform ordinary Jap millet. One is called Chipawa millet. A bit pricey but I think it is worth a try if you are going to go through all of the effort. Supposedly it produces much more millet and later in the season. We may go for the trifecta and put one of the colored millets in. I think black but I would have to take a look at my notes as that project is late in the Summer.

Our goal is to have a long lasting different flowering time millet availability. Don't want to get to far off the topic here as I am not bus proof. I'm talking about up near Delevan. Lambertville? Hopefully you were not involved with the maybe ongoing Lake Davis fiasco. If so, I retract my incompetent statements.

Back to your pond. If you could get them, what would be your stocking goals as far as size, quantity and timing? If I remember correctly, you were thinking LMB (F1), BG, RES, CC.

Pond Frog,
No offense on the incompetent government statements, I hear it even from my family. Luckily for me, I work for the US Gov so I wasn't involved with the Lake Davis fiasco and I actually get paid for working on Fridays. My office is at the Sacramento NWR and I work on many of the clubs in the Lambertville area. What a small world.

As for the pond stocking, I'm most likely looking for fingerling size (1"-3") fish to keep the costs down. If I could get some slightly bigger (4"-6") at a reasonable rate then I'd go that route.

I've read a few places that it's okay to stock predatory and prey fish together as long as they're similar size. I'm not sure if this is true or not. Someone else may have an different opinion.

I'd like to get them in as soon as possible, however the pond is pretty muddy from the rain/run-off and it doesn't have much in the way of insects or plants for that matter. I had it halfway done last year when it ended up filling with rain water. Sometime in the early to mid-Spring the pond came alive with tree frog tadpoles and invertabrates. I'm expecting similar results this year.

The stocking rate that I'm considering is:
F1 Largemouths- 125
Florida Largemouths- 25
Redear Sunfish- 300
Coppernose Bluegill- 700
Channel Catfish- 75
Fathead Minnows- 1,000

Maybe I can get some pointers from you up there sometime. Trade for some fish work. I'd love to have an expert duck opinion about anything. But we can talk about operation millet and other things down the road. There is a decent California pond stocking guidelines out there. Out of UC Davis. They are very strong on such matters. They have slightly different numbers, and say to put cc and bg in first, in Spring and next year establish LMB. I cna get you that doc if you desire, or its URL. It's a pdf file.

Looks like you added quite a bit to the plate. I don't even know if I can cook all that up, but with my in person visits within a week or so I will have that shopping list in hand. I can also transport to save you money if that helps. Maybe we can trade some services.

I'd love to get your opinion sometime on the management of my pond. I can't say that I'm the "expert duck" guy around here but I've been doing it for a few years anyway.

I've looked up the UC Davis guidelines and seen other similar recommendations. It seems as a general rule the stocking ratio is roughly 10 BG/RES per bass and any where from 100-200 bass per acre depending on the pond. It sounds like I may be high on the side of predator fish since I'm considering CC.

My pond is 1.25 acres and isn't very productive at the moment. I'm hoping that will all change soon. I also plan on feeding the fish and fertilizing as needed.

I think you can run up the LMB/BG ratio to 15%. Maybe bump up the CC, which should be calculated seperately anyway. I think the key or starting point is minnows. I'd say 2,000, minimum a month before you plant anything else. Would you consider Gambusia instead of fatheads? I'm sure you can figure out the pros and cons there, if not, I'll point them out. Western guidelines say if you want to plant all in one season, get those minnows in first.

Those stocking numbers are very high if you want a decent chance at trophy bluegill as you mentioned earlier. Those numbers are better for trophy bass, but will also not give you growth rates on the sunfish as good as you would get with lower sunfish numbers. And those numbers are very high, period, unless you fertilize or feed.

And, stocking the bluegill a year before the bass is another method that is great for the bass but will limit the bluegill growth due to higher numbers of them.

That depends on your goals and the location. For example in cold climates (N. US ) BG are often added a year after LMB and FH due to the potential for BG stunting. In the deep south it is common to stock FH in March and BG/CNBG/RES , and small LMB in June. It is also common in the south to Stock BG etc in the Fall and LMB the next spring/summer. This is using small stocker fish (2 inch) for all but the FH which are adults. There are other ways and methods using larger fish. These are also for a balanced pond population. The methods used for intentionally misbalancing the population ( ie trophy LMB or trophy BG) are different. There are other factors as well such as feeding.

In warm water locations the general idea is you don't want your initial brood forage fish (other than FH)to be eaten before the forage base is established. In cold water locations the idea is to avoid BG stunting. Of course this changes as the species change ( tilapia , shad , GShiners etc).

Actually the numbers he came up with are per acre from a study at UC Davis CA. And his pond is 25% larger. This is our local study, from the top ag university in the region. They are based on a high pond fertility rating. Even if you went average its 100-750 per surface acre, but he has 1 1/4. Personally I'd start there, but it's duck's pond so that's what he wants. The eventual problem there is the pond's fish bio mass capacity are going to be exceeded. Going to have to cull everything steadily or you can't get trophy fish. And these numbers are based on harvest of fish moderately to heavily.

They even have a Western stocking strategy. Minnows early Spring. Everything else, one month later. But CC can be done anytime before fall. The alternative is to get minnows and BG to spawn a couple of times and then put LMB in. My best results have been forage first. Let them find cover, spawn once if possible. Introduced bass have plenty of food.

UC Davis might be relatively unknown outside our area because they have a dink div 2 sports program, but they draw a lot of grads in, world class students, have state of the art research facilities and a bunch of money flowing in. When they put out a paper on ecology or the environment, I respect it.

Does the level of your pond fluctuate much Duckdude?

Down in El Dorado county we have huge fluctuations in pond levels due to the long hot and dry summers. I'm guessing that you'd be in the same situation unless you bump with well water or something. DIED's pond and mine will drop 7 to 8 vertical feet from end of the spring rains to the beginning of fall rains.

Yup, I lose 8-9 feet per season. Middle year of the drought 2008, over 10 feet. That is a very good question.

It sounds like the UC Davis study was focused entirely on growing large bass - if so, then that isn't in line with Duckdude's stated goals. If the goal of the study was to develop a balanced population of good-sized bluegill and bass both, it would seem odd to me that the results are much more in line with what pond managers in other areas of the country, specifically areas with long growing seasons as Duckdude states he has, recommend for misbalanced ponds geared solely toward trophy bass.

IMO that's the key, as Ewest mentions above - intentionally skewing the pond solely toward the optimal state for trophy bass, which is overpopulated bluegill, is very different from stocking numbers which have a better chance of resulting in a balanced population. If he stocks 1,000 sunfish per acre, the bass will never get the sunfish under control without a considerable poundage of sunfish being harvested by anglers each year; granted, you mention that the study was done with moderate to heavy harvest figured on, as well as high fertility. To me it just makes more sense not to put oneself behind the eight ball right off the bat in regards to one's goals, but rather to stock in a manner that gives one the best chance of realizing said goals. Just my $.02.

Initial stocking of 2 inch fish. Commonly issued suggestions.

2000 BG/CNBG/RES per acre are suggested for trophy LMB ponds.

1000 BG/CNBG/RES per acre are suggested for balanced LMB/BG ponds.

The number of LMB per acre depends on the goal:

100 LMB per acre for a balanced pond.

Anywhere from 30-60 LMB per acre for a trophy LMB pond

This is for fertile ponds in warm climates (long growing season).

If the pond is infertile the numbers are cut in half.

If additional species are included the numbers need to be adjusted. You have to leave room for growth to carrying capacity.

I have not seen written research or presentations from fisheries scientists on the stocking numbers for a trophy BG pond. There are different ways to get that and I am not sure relying on stocking numbers is the best way. For example you don't want the first in BG eaten as they will have the best growth rate. Its their babies you want to limit. Feeding also makes a big difference in raising trophy BG.

Eric:

I've got a question on carrying capacity, but I'll start a different thread. I read the archives about it and my head is reeling and my eyes are slowly focusing on the screen.

1,000 bluegill per acre is not quite a standard recommendation for a balanced pond. Most state game and fish agencies recommend half that number of bluegill per acre for a balanced pond.

Mississippi recommends 500 bluegill per acre:

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2525.pdf

North Carolina recommends 700 in a fertilized pond (half that many for unfertilized):

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/nreos/wild/fisheries/mgt_guide/chapter2.html#options

Georgia recommends 400 per acre:

http://warnell.forestry.uga.edu/service/library/index.php3?docID=41&docHistory%5B%5D=1

Tennessee recommends 500:

http://www.tnfish.org/FarmPondManagement_TWRA/files/TWRAPondManagement.pdf

Arkansas recommends 800 for a fertilized pond, half that many for unfertilized:

http://www.tnfish.org/FarmPondManagement_TWRA/files/TWRAPondManagement.pdf

Florida recommends between 250 and 500:

http://myfwc.com/conservation/conservationyou_daily_living_pond_management.htm#fish


LA, SC, AL, and TX recommend 1,000 per acre for a fertilized pond.

And California's stocking densities are 150, 200-1000 LMB-BG for a highly fertile pond, 100, 125-750 for an average pond. This data was based on Southeast US, then tested, and modified to fit our local conditions. They take into account arid, dry conditions, heavy predation and a more rapid establishment of a useable fishery.

The stocking tables are guidelines, and can be modified with an experienced local pond manager. That be me.

The guidelines are set to produce a fast balanced fishery not lunkers or trophy bass. In my experience a pond in NorCal is not very likely to produce many lunker bass unless it is trout stocked. Too many cold months where the bass just go off thier feed. Plus a pond that size just does not have the room.

Duck says he wants his daughters to enjoy the fishery. I am in this business for my young boys. The trophy bass might be tough to achieve. But the majority of my customers want thier ponds kid friendly. So do I.

Pond Frog those are good numbers. I am familiar with UC Davis and if the area is as described ( more similar to a SE pond) that is good info.

The rates given for MS are for an infertile pond at 500 BG/RES per acre. The guy who heads the project and I have given pond mgt seminars together in the past and the rate for a fertile pond he suggests is 1000 with 100 LMB for a balanced pond as I noted earlier. Given the instructions for writing the pond mgt booklets across the SE for ag extension agencies most are for fish production on a sustained basis and are for infertile ponds. They were developed during the depression years and for food supply purposes. In that time period ponds were not limed and fertilized when needed so the instructions were for infertile waters. The general suggestion for fertile waters as I stated is 1000-100 for fertile SE ponds and 500-50 for infertile ponds. The book clearly states 10 to 1 BG/LMB.

Everything must be taken in context (which the UC Davis' info does.) Blind reliance on state mgt links to fish numbers without understanding the purpose and application is not only bad advice to others but is dangerous for the newbie. I have warned certain people of this before.

A balance pond is what most people enjoy. That or a put and take fishery is best for kids.

I think they are at least close. And with a pond that size aggressive culling can get you in balance, I would hope. I don't use the numbers as gospel, or with a grain of salt, just guidelines. To me the most important factor is customers or clients goals. Then a healthy balance of species, especially BG/LMB ratio. 15% is pushing it, but with minnows I think that would fly. If not you start culling. Last but not least is sustainability. I have seen a pond that exact size just ruined. Of course costs factor in, and boy do we get raped up here. Bright side is starting from scratch can be a whole lot easier than an established pond that went bad. No matter how long I do this, I am always learning and always humble. Thanks for the input.

lets try asking this again.

duckdude, how will you keep yer pond full during the summer?

if you dont have supplemental water, this will affect (or should affect) yer stocking strategy.

Wow guys! Thanks for all the good comments. As a biologist I knew that there had to be a lot more to managing a pond than beats the eye, but I now see that this stuff can be taken as far as one wants to take it!

I always tell my landowners that wetland managment is an art not a science and it appears that pond managment is no different.

As I stated before, my goal is for good solid bass fishing (no illusions of breaking any world records) and plenty of BG and RES for the kids. The catfish would be harvested heavily as we love to eat em.

My pond's water level will be static as I've purchased a Grundfos pump and will be installing 1400 watts worth of solar panels to provide plenty of water (thank you NRCS!).

Anyway, it's all good discussion and gives me something to ponder.

Thanks,
DD

As an accountant I had no clue as to what it took to manage a pond. I figured you have a hole, it has some water in it, it has some fish swimming around, how can I make this tax deductible?

And then I find out I have to manage the damn thing?!?!



Oh great, now I hate you.

I woudl like to see facts that support the claim that "most state agency recommendations were written during the Depression." That's not very flattering to the average state game and fish agency, which usually requires a bachelor's degree in fisheries science for all of their fisheries biologists. I would wager that contacting any of the agencies I listed would clear this up. It's pretty indefensible to characterize a recommendation coming from a degreed fisheries biologist as "dangerous," when the recommendation is much more likely to result in a balanced pond than the one being provided in this thread, especially if there is a good deal of cold weather in the area in question - more cold weather means less predation on bluegill by bass, not more. Pretty basic.

I only dream of static ponds. Reality is watching level drop daily and fearing all of the fish I love will be floating soon. You are blessed my son. Ponder Gambusia vs. Fatheads.

DD:

Can you tell me more about how to go about getting NRCS to help with the pump and solar? I'd really like to keep the water in the pond at a constant level, but it will take pumping water roughly 8-9 months out of the year. Which Grundfos pump do you have?

Thanks.

I stand a better chance of getting my HA to sponsor a trip to the moon than them blessing a pump tapping the depleted wells. That's just fantasyland for me. Some guys have all the luck, I got a rock.

DIED,
Last year NRCS in CA had a "Native Pollinator" initiative that brought in an extra $1 million to their WHIP (for those who don't know Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program....we love our acronyms in the Gov). Anyway, I knew I wanted to have a pond in my backyard and I'm a habitat biologist so I wanted to get as much habitat back there as possible. They (NRCS)had trouble getting people to do projects for native pollinators so they prioritized my project because I not only wanted a pond, native grasses and trees I was willing to do some native wildflowers, bee blocks etc. I felt that this was no concession on my part since who wouldn't want some cool native forbs blooming from mid-spring to late summer.

I likely wouldn't have been funded had I not gone for the pollinator stuff. As it turned out, I got money for excavation of the pond, a 40 gpm solar pump, native grasses, trees and wildflowers. What a deal!

Unfortunately, it sounds like the additional pollinator money may have been a one shot deal. I would encourage you though to talk to your local NRCS folks in El Dorado County.

Beware though, not all offices are created equal. I live in Butte County and our people are willing to help out. Some gov't workers have figured out that they'll get paid whether they administer their program or not.

Although I don't cover your area, I do know who does for the Fish and Wildlife Service. I may be able to help you out if you don't have any luck with NRCS.
DD

By the way, I bought the 40SQF-5. My water is at 20 ft. down and with pumping I'll be pulling it from 30ft. I should be able to get 40 gpm with 1400 watts. The problem is that's a lot of panels!

Interesting stuff Duckdude!

Jeffhasapond,
Soooooo, about you seeking an opportunity to make a pond tax deductible? Any luck? Wanna share your results with the group????

Couppe

Always.
No.
Not particularly.



The short answer is that in order to obtain any deduction related to pond expenses the pond must be used in some form for the production of income (raising and selling fish, a fee for fishing business) or for certain farmers under certain circumstances as a conservation measurement. Farmers have a completely unique set of internal revenue code that govern what they can deduct and how they can deduct it and to be perfectly honest I'm not that familiar with this area of tax code.

So far I haven't taken any steps to either create a farm or create an income producing activity at my place so this pretty much rules out any tax deduction.

Someday however, when Green Sunfish are truly appreciated for the magnificent fish that they are, I shall be sitting on the proverbial gold mine.

I was mostly being silly but difficult to see a persons facial expressions. lol.

I actually have about 24 acres in the conservation program on the home place for trees and quail preservation but that is another topic altogether.

Thanks for responding to the question, good stuff....

thats great info duckdude, thanks. i never considered seeking federal assistance, and my county is well known for its indifference. even if i did seek and recieve an offer of assistance, my geographic area is much more problematic in finding productive groundwater than yours. i live on bedrock and the water travels in discrete fractures which are not easy to locate. it could take tens of thousands of dollars of trying to locate a producing vein, and if you found any, it might be at depths as great as 900 feet, from which no practical solar array could extract the water.

i'm glad to see you have some real water available, as you probably already figured, to put 1 inch of water in a 1 acre pond takes over 25,000 gallons. to keep up with an inch per day loss due to evaporation and/or slight leaking would require 15 to 20 gpm ballpark. sounds like you got that covered!!

Dave,
Yeah, it was a real shocker when I realized how much water it was going to take to keep it up in the summer.

I'm lucky in the fact that my pond was dug in 100% hardpan and I already had a previously drilled 8" ag well. However, I wasn't considering myself lucky when I was trying to dig through that hardpan!

DuckDude:

When I visit my local NRCS office, what questions do I need to ask them about the different programs?

Esshup,

I'd just go in and inquire about all their different conservation programs. They get hundreds of millions of dollars a year through the Farm Bill for the various programs like Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program (WHIP), Environmental Quality Incentive Program (EQIP), Wetland Reserve Program (WRP), Conservation Security Program (CSP) just to name a few. Without getting into too much detail, all the programs have specific landowner/property eligibility requirements. I've included the webpages for WHIP and WRP since they are the most common conservation programs that I've used.

You want to think about it from their prospective when you are seeking government assistance. They may have specific goals that on the outside don't match up with your goals, but they may be willing to meet you half way. In my case, I was okay with incorporating the native forb/hedgerow into my project and they were then okay with helping me on my pond and pump.

You also need to be as creative as possible when you let them in on your plans. When I speak to them about my pond I never refer to it as a fish (bass) pond. I say that it's a permanent wetland that we excavated deeper than usual to preclude encroachment of emergent vegetation (aka. cattails, tules, etc).

When we talk about the species that will benefit from the pond, we talk about all the sensitive wetland dependent species that live in my area (eg. western pond turtles, giant garter snakes, American bitterns and locally breeding waterfowl to name a few). All state and federally listed species as well as waterfowl are what are known as "Federal Trust Resources" and projects benefitting these are a program priority.

Your neck of the woods may be different, but in my area no one wants to fund a bass pond. However, because fish find their way into nearly every watercourse then having fish in a permanent wetland isn't considered a travesty. I just don't advertise that I'm actively putting them in there.

In the case of aquaculture, NRCS is big on this and cost share and assistance is readily available to benefit these operations.

I can be more specific about the requirements and goals of easch individual projects if needed, but my recommendation is to enquire from them as to what types of projects have been spending their money on locally and then try to figure out how to incorporate some of their ideas into your own plan.

Good luck and let me know how it goes. Maybe I can give you some pointers.
DD

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[url=http://coralreef.gov/grants/nrcs/Wildlife_Hab_Prog_Factsheet.pdf]

DD:

Thanks. I'll delve further into it later on tonight.