_____________

EDIT: Here is a link to the Rehabbing Mr. H\'s small pond thread. It will be an attempt at a trophy GSF pond. I made that thread to deal with the general process of fixing the pond, while this thread can deal with specific strategies for managing trophy GSF.

______________

EDIT: After this thread got to be about 10 pages long I learned that Green Sunfish are not naturally found in my immediate area. The main goal of this pond is good catching/eating fish, but if possible I would rather use local types of fish. Luckily Warmouth (Lepomis Gulosus) is native to Grady county and is very similar to GSF.

________________

ORIGINAL POST:

I'm aware that to most people GSF are a trash fish. They overpopulate, stunt, compete with "good" fish for forage, etc.

On the other hand, they are very aggressive, taste good (I hear), and can get pretty big in the right environment. The current record in Georgia is 1lb - 7oz. That came from a private pond and it isn't likely that the pond was managed for large GSF. What's possible if you do manage for them? I wouldn't mind having a little pond inhabited with GSF upwards of 2lbs.

What I hope is that some of you can switch gears from repeating the common wisdom about GSF and give a thought to how you might manage for trophy Greenies.

DIED, was that you who has the big Greens? Did you get them by managing for them?

GW - the key would be to stock enough LMB to keep their numbers in check so they don't stunt. One of the most impressive big LMB lakes I have fished in our local area had a GSF for a forage base, the GSF did an excellent job of keeping the LMB fry/population under control until aquatic vegetation got out of hand. Prespawn LMB at 18" were always over 5 lbs sometimes pushing 6 lbs.

I was wondering if they (LMB and GSF) might keep each others populations in check.

By subbing GSF for BG can you avoid the stunted LMB you end up with when you manage for large lepomis?

Could Talapia and/or GC help avoid that without causing a bigger problem of some kind?

Yes, so long as there is very little cover for young of the year to hide in. Those 18" LMB were regulary eating 6-7" GSF and the GSF kept LMB reproduction to a minumum. This lake changed dramitically when curlyleaf pond weed and chara showed up giving the YOY of both species places to avoid predation.

Thanks for the feedback Shorty.

Do you have any info on the sizes of GSF in that good bass lake?

Lot's of 6-9" GSF which made the LMB fishing tough at times even when throwing big baits, you just couldn't keep the GSF from hitting just about anything you were throwing for the LMB.

GC controling aquatic vegetaion is really dependent on the type of vegetation and the stocking densities of GC. If the vegetation is low on the GC "preference list" and there are not enough of them, they won't keep the vegetation under control.

GW,

I'm not one of those "common wisdom" folks who abhore GSF. In fact, I love the aggressiveness of the GSF. On little rivers and oxbows in this part of the world, they provide some extreme excitement on the right tackle. They can be a great fish...

Having said that, I've never had much of any success with them in ponds. They simply can not withstand the pressure from LMB in my ponds. On occasion, I've had GSF introduced to a pond by unwanted hatchery stocking when stocking other fish. The GSF always disappear completely after a couple of years.

I think if I were to try for a trophy greenie pond, I might choose the HSB as the predator. They are an inferior predator to the LMB on sunfish and as we've discussed in other threads, without artificial feeding, it would seem they would have a good chance at controlling the greenies and giving you a shot at trophy ones. Its an interesting thought, a trophy greenie pond...hmmm I like the thought of that...what do you think of the HSB/GSF combo? One downside would be the catchability of the HSB in a small pond over time, but the greenies would probably more than make up for that with their aggressiveness. Throw in some Gams and you might just have an interesting pond.

I just don't know if the HSB would keep the numbers of small fish down sufficiently....they didn't in my GG pond, but maybe GSF would be different...and again, success may depend on how tolerant you are of also catching small fish.

GW - one thing I need to mention about this lake, it was well established with GSF before the LMB were ever put in.

I had a biologist from LSU tell me that the most successful trophy LMB lakes he's ever seen all had GSF in them. Maybe they're not as bad as everyone thinks. I think it all depends on what you are looking for.

Though the GSF population in my ponds hasn't gained much in numbers or size, for whatever reason, the coppernose bluegulls are not only holding their own but are also growing. Every time I go down there I take either some small earthworms or Berkley Power Nuggets to toss in the largest of the ponds, and the coppernose seem to be on a steady growth trend.
They've been in there for a little over two years. As for spawning, I really don't know at this point.

In the "TGG Experiment: Summary and Conclusions" thread I mentioned an interest in stocking my small pond with GG/HSB. I'm equally as interested in trying GSF/HSB instead of the GG.

I'm really not too excited about stunted LMB. I was half hoping that someone would say that the LMB and GSF would each control the other resulting in good sizes of both. Shorty's observation that a good LMB lake had lots of 6 - 9 inch GSF gives some hope maybe.

I will most likely stock the larger pond which is Cindy's (girlfriend), with CNBG/RES, LMB and maybe CC. That pond will be roughly 5 acres. In my 1/2 - 3/4 acre pond I would like to be more experimental.

Hi Larry, how long have the Greenies been in there and were they stocked on purpose?

If they were intentionally stocked, what was the goal?

cheyenne19 did he happen to say what else was in those lakes ?

Larry Bozka, Larry Hartley here. Its a small world. I've really enjoyed reading some of your saltwater articles over the years and look forward to reading your views on ponds and the Black Salty in particular....maybe once in awhile you can slip in any hot info on the lower coast south of the Land Cut. I'm trying to find time to learn that area for fly fishing.

GW,
If you follow along Meadowlarks suggestion and forget catching the hsb, comcentrate on the greenies and introduce tilapia as soon each year as you can you might have a manageable population. Watch your balance and stock each species as needed.
Sounds workable.

Thanks Rad. What would be the reason to not catch the HSB? Is it to focus more on controlling the Greens? I sure would like to have HSB available for the deep fryer...

No, he didn't. He did say that he thought they helped the LMB as far as forage goes. I just mentioned wanting to remove them, and those were his comments about them. SE Pond Mgt said that the GSF that are in my pond would make great forage, but didn't comment on the lasting affects on recruitment of LMB.

I like GSF and don't really see a problem on LMB recruitment. The GSF only spawns once per year and most of them get eaten when small. Actually, if the eat some of the small LMB, that ain't always bad.

Could it be that the GSF are considered a problem because folks are managing for other Sunfish, but could work fine if you were managing for them? By fine I mean decent numbers of easy to catch 1 pounders.

I wonder what would happen if Dr. Condello were to apply his methods to Greenies...

That's exactly what I think about them. They might help to stop avoid LMB overcrowding.

It all depends. You should hear that a lot here. Every pond is different as are fish populations. There is some commonality based on biology and mother nature's rules don't change. Every pond has a carrying capacity limit which studies have shown usually fills to its "normal capacity" in 2-3 years. That is why stocking fish happens once in a new pond. For example in a BG/LMB pond you don't stock 1000BG and 100LMB pre acre every year you do it once. Absent a biologic change in the system ( like starting a feeding program or a fertility increase) from that point on it is about managing the populations to get to your goals. You may add some fish and take some out and some will die and others will be born and grow but the lbs of fish per acre carrying capacity stays rather constant.

If you want a balanced LMB/lepomis pond GSF are not the best choice. GSF take up carrying capacity like a BG (size/weight) but are much less productive as forage. By far in the south the most common problem in pond fish populations is stunted LMB (8-12 in) due partly to not enough forage even when stocked with BG. The BG simply can't alone reproduce enough to sustain the LMB. Given that even BG are often not productive enough to sustain a balanced LMB pond why take up carrying capacity with a less productive alternative in GSF. It is contrary to the goal.

Further lepomis and their hybrids are born and grow quickly until they reach the point where energy is diverted to reproductive activity at which point growth slows to a low rate. They are genetically wired to reproduce ASAP to preserve the species absent a suppresser (like a pond at carrying capacity or in BG the presence of large male BG). What does this mean ? Because in a new pond GSF don't produce enough offspring to sustain the LMB few if any get big (they are eaten), therefore the remaining GSF are wired to become active as reproducers quicker and thus they exhibit very low growth. That is why most LMB ponds with GSF have GSF populations made up of mostly small (less than 5in)GSF which are struggling to survive as a population and are reproducing as fast as they can and not getting bigger. That goes on for a while until the GSF population can't withstand the pressure and you end up with some small GSF and a lot of skinny LMB eating everything in sight. In addition studies show that LMB will eat GSF first over BG because of their shape and the gape limit of the LMB. So even larger GSF(say 6 in) are eaten by LMB before smaller BG (say 4in ). The GSF remain subject to predation much longer than the BG due to shape and size. Generally speaking because this scenario has gone on for millennia GSF have survived and adapted and genetic selection has selected for small size and quick reproduction in most populations. DIED may have a GSF population which has not been subject to the normal genetic selection process or they may have some other genes mixed in. One other point - some Fisheries Scientists who do research on lepomis believe it is getting harder to find pure GSF and thus they see wider variation in test results on growth and fecundity. The point being you may not be able to find a hatchery with them or they may not be quality GSF. Most hatcheries don't carry GSF.

That is what is the most common outcome. Can there be exceptions - yes. Can you count on being an exception or manage to that outcome. I don't know. I generally don't bet against mother nature unless I am willing to suffer the loss. Most pond owners don't want to take that risk and therefore it is not recommended by fisheries managers. If you want to take that risk with your pond with the information available, I say go for it - we will try to help- keep us updated so we can learn along with you.

Here's a post by Dave in El Dorado from his Sunfish pond thread . Dave, did you do anything particular to get those fat Greenies?

Thanks ewest. It will helpful to use your post to fine tune this idea.

"If you want a balanced LMB/lepomis pond GSF are not the best choice."

I don't care about LMB for this pond. In fact I don't like the idea of relying on stunted LMB to manage for large Lepomis, though I understand the reasoning. The question of using HSB as a predator has come up. What do you think of that?

"Generally speaking because this scenario has gone on for millennia GSF have survived and adapted and genetic selection has selected for small size and quick reproduction in most populations. DIED may have a GSF population which has not been subject to the normal genetic selection process or they may have some other genes mixed in. One other point - some Fisheries Scientists who do research on lepomis believe it is getting harder to find pure GSF and thus they see wider variation in test results on growth and fecundity. The point being you may not be able to find a hatchery with them or they may not be quality GSF. Most hatcheries don't carry GSF."

What about collecting from other ponds and wild populations?

What if I applied all of the techniques that Bruce has used to raise his trophy BG?

What are options for having the GSF be the apex predator?

I'm probably showing my ignorance, but what would a GSF/Talapia pond be like? I'm only a few miles from the Florida/Georgia line.

Some would work to help manage for large GSF; some would not. Perhaps the manner in which GSF are most like their cousins the BG is in appearance; in many behavioral aspects (spawning, mouth size and the closely related eating preferences) they are as different as any two Lepomis can be. For example I don't believe we have much idea, if any, whether the presence of large males delays maturation in GSF as it does in BG.

Maybe it is possible to "dial in" the management formula for a trophy GSF pond and produce such a fishery, maybe not. The known examples could be due to local phenomena making them unreproducible exceptions. My favorite example of an exception is Lusk's story of the unfished, unmanaged pond that produce huge trophy LMB - becuase cormorants regularly came through and wiped out most of the bass population, leaving a few surviviors with beau coup forage.

There is a huge opportunity for someone who loves the idea of a trophy GSF pond to work out the rules and publish "the book" on such a pond. If you say to yourself "It might as well be me," give it a shot!

Theo, for a moment I thought you were going to say that GSF were more like LMB than BG. What do you think about that comparison?

Maybe the way to approach this is more like a trophy LMB strategy with the GSF filling the basses role and a traditional or non-traditional selection of very small forage fish. These could be gambusia or maybe some of the super small sunfish.

Does anyone know if GSF take pellets easily? If so, how would that effect the strategy?

GW, DIED is in fact the one that has the huge GSF in his pond. I've emailed him that there is a GSF thread going on so hopefully he'll tell you all about it.

He does not have any bass in his pond so the GSF is the primary predator. Prior to his adding the BG and RES in March, he only had Gams and GSF in his pond. So there was no predation pressure besides GSF eating GSF.

Now that he has added BG and RES he is pellet feeding. I don't think (but am not positive) that the GSF are eating the pellets but that is not to say that they can't be pellet trained.

I'm sure he'll be along soon to fill in the details.

GW - based on what I know about the GSF lake I previously mentioned I would leave other types of sunfish out, at least intially for a couple of years, to avoid hybridization. BG have been introduced into the mix on the lake I know, there are now lot's of BG and HBG in there and the GSF numbers have dropped dramticaly in both numbers and size. I do like the tilapia idea, the offspring would provide plenty of small fish for both the LMB and GSF to forage on. The nice thing about GSF is their big mouth and their abilty to eat prey much larger than most sunfish can. They also have a more streamlined body shape that lets the LMB more easily eat them in larger sizes than other sunfish. They way I see it is that the with GSF only in ther mix you should see very little LMB reproduction and the existing LMB should be able to work on GSF up to 7-8". If the timing and stocking numbers work out you could end up with a trophy GSF & trophy LMB pond. If it we me, I would stock the GSF only, then wait a year or two before adding any LMB.

What Ewest describes here is exactly what I found in my pond when I purchased the property. I had a 3 acre pond with stunted LMB, numerous GSF and a couple (well five that I know of) catfish. But the GSF were simply not producing enough forage for the LMB. Since there was lots of vegetation in the pond the GSF had plenty of places to hide and multiply and not get eaten.

I personally like the GSF, they fight like a fish twice their size and they are IMHO one of the most beautiful of the sunfish. But just not adequate for LMB forage. In March I added BG and RES - I have no idea how this will work in the long run - time will tell. Since I don't live at the property this will be an unmanaged/unscientific/unprofessional/uninhibited/unnatural/unemcumbered/uncola experiment. And that's all I have to say about that.

jeffhasapond, my thoughts are the key to this whole idea of GSF only pond would be almost NO aquatic vegetation to give the YOY for either the GSF of LMB to hide in. Having a significant amout of aquatic vegetation will mess it up, I've seen it happen at the lake I mentioned. I would be very hawkish on keeping it weed free.

Our neighbor on the section has a small GSF only pond with nothing else in it, I'll stop by sometime and see if can find out what the average size of GSF are without any other predators present. A couple of years ago I tried to talk him into putting 1/2 dozen LMB from our pond in it and he said "No, it was just too much fun for the kids to go fish."

GSF readily eat pellets. If you watch my thread on feeding my 30gallon you can see the GSF is king be it bugs pellets or anything that is edible.

That's good news (for one interested in Greenies). Does anyone think it would be any different in a pond?

GSF aggressively taking pellets seems to be a key factor doesn't it? I'm a rookie, but isn't part of the problem with overpopulation the fact that forage is depleted too quickly?

I'm starting to think that a GSF pond with no LMB might be the way to go. Keep plant growth to a minimum, feed pellets, and harvest selectively and aggressively.

g-dub...sorry i've been away playing with dirt.

i've previously posted (probably too much) about the background info on my pond, the downstream ranch pond, and the GSF. the info is spread around. nutshell (as much as i am able).....the GSF originally came from a nearby old unmanaged 5 ac ranch pond containing only LMB and GSF. LMB are largely stunted but with occassional whoppers over 5 lb (a ranch hand caught a 10 lb and an 11 lb LMB late last fall both with bellies full of LMB fry and frogs). the GSF are all huge and smaller year classes of GSF seemingly absent. I moved some GSF over to my pond last summer and never saw them again until this spring (those pics from me you posted here). They dont appear to have gained much in length, but they definitely have gained girth presumably since i stocked the BG in february.

the unmanaged ranch pond seems to have its own balance that shorty alluded to. with just LMB and GSF, you have trophies of both species, with the majority of LMB being 8-14 inches and looking a bit underfed.

if you have nothing better to do, below are some links with more detailed background info on my pond the ranch pond and the GSF (they are really funny for me to re-read........i know so little now.......i knew even less then, a true fingerling ) it reminds me of why i love this place, and compells me to thank again the HOF (hall of fame) pond bosses who've helped me learn so much the last year including but not limited to ewest, theo, bruce, cody, ML....too long a list to name all:

unwanted fish?

keeping things simple

gambusia, bluegill and spotted bass

HBG pic/question

the now former world record RES came from a canal not far from my place.....maybe the next world record GSF is swimming around right in front of me

p.s. i dont think the mommies and daddies are eating pellets but all the little ones are. took them about 30 seconds to figure it out.

GSF will agressivley eat about anything.

I think that's the way to start for a couple of years, after which if you wanted you could add a few LMB for some additional tropheys to the pond. Without weeds present I wouldn't expect much LMB recruitment if any at all. I do know that the NE G & P biologist told the home owners association at the lake I mentioned that they would likley have to restock LMB periodically due to very poor recruitment from GSF predation on the LMB fry.

Well I know a sure-fire method for producing lunker Greenies, but I don't have the resources to offer Cecil $100 for every 2 pounder he produces.

It's probably just my lack of knowledge, but it just doesn't seem all that unlikely that a small pond could produce good numbers of 1lb GSF.

They eat like pigs apparently so why couldn't you just stuff them until they grow large? I think ewest had a good point about genetics, but with a little effort I believe some decent breeders could be had. The Georgia record for GSF was set a few years ago at 1lb 7oz and 11 inches so they are out there. Considering the common opinion about GSF I think it's safe to assume that big Greenie wasn't big because someone managed for it.

Maybe before we go further someone could try and shoot down that logic (feed them heavily = big GSF).

no challenge from me.

as Dr. Frankenbruce once told me (a couple weeks ago):

General rule...

Identify the fish you want to grow big, then assure that there are fewer fish than their particular food resource will support.


running around the shoreline like a madman making all the grasshoppers jump into the pond dont hurt neither.

That's really funny--because I've actually done that before.

I am doing some research on the subject for answers if they exist.

Lepomis reproduce more offspring if well conditioned (lots of food). If you put in small GSF to start a population and feed them they will quickly become reproductive to fill the space and will produce more offspring. Without predation they will continue that process until the carrying capacity of the pond is reached and stunt. That is also true of BG and PS and others except RES (can't find a case of reported RES stunting).

ewest, it's really great that you're willing to take the time to research something for the benefit of others. I know you've been thanked many times but I would like to add my thanks to the list.

I'm glad that GSF are similar to BG in this aspect, not because that makes it any easier to manage, but because there's so much information about raising BG.

My pond will be small so seining might work for population control. Maybe I should keep the contour simple and without too much structure. What about removable structure? The maximum depth will probably be less than 6 feet. Also in a normal weather pattern I could lower the pond significantly and expect it to fill pretty quickly.

I did find research that said GSF commonly eat small LMB, fry and eggs. Maybe they would put pressure on their own fry as well. Is cannibalism a large factor in managing any other species? Would it make sense to stop feeding pellets after a spawn to encourage adults to eat the fry?

GW thanks. That is what this forum is all about. I have some bits and pieces.

You note a very good point - that small ponds are much easier to manage/control by many means. Seining and trapping are great ways to manage small ponds. Drawdowns are a good tool for several reasons. They concentrate fish for eating and allow the dry ground to become much more productive when re-flooded. Just have to be sure it will refill.

GSF and BG are big predators of yoy fish no matter the type including their own species. Male BG as a general matter know there own offspring by smell (chemical detection) and don't eat them. They can tell sneaker BG yoy from there own and have been observed picking out the intruder yoy and eating them. The biggest predator of yoy BG are small BG.

More later as I find interesting parts to the puzzle.

eric,
the fact that the ranch pond only has LMB and GSF, and all (the visible or catchable) GSF are huge, sounds like an exception to what you are saying. Shorty mentioned the huge difference aquatic growth (weeds) make. I believe this (having weeds) could be the critical (management) factor for large GSF success in ponds with LMB. Weeds dominate fairly large portions of both my pond and the ranch pond....despite thte difficulty of observing small GSF in the ranch pond there is lots of cover for little survivors. only the large GSF can survive open water with the LMB present which is also where they are so easy to catch.

regarding our GSF genetics, i've spoken with the rancher and he recalls never introducing anything other than those green sunnies, but as you say, they may have started with mixed genes. after observing these guys, looking at books, on-line resources, and seeing jeff's GSF, they sure look like pure strain GSF to me. i'll try and remember to count up some gill rakes, fin rays, and take a few more gape measurements and report back.

earlier in this thread, g-dub wondered about GSF eating LMB fry?....absolutely, and their own....i've seen it wit me own two eyes.

Here's some good info and images for identifying GFS:

Green Sunfish

Click Attribute Details under the photos for more data.


I found this great photo of a Greenie by John White.


click to enlarge

Here is another GSF one from the archives via Bruce.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000034





There is a good discussion of HBG and GSF id here.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439

I'd like to go into this idea further because there is a lot of information about raising trophy LMB using smaller sunfish as a forage base.

To clarify about the small sunfish I mentioned above I'm thinking of species that don't get more that a few inches long. In other words, at their maximum size they would still represent forage for mature GSF. I would exclude any fish that might cross breed with the GSF.

I'm picturing my 1/2 acre pond with several species of small indigenous fish, none of which grow beyond a few inches, and GSF playing the role of apex predator.

The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that GSF behave much like LMB. They are aggressive ambush hunters and older fish are territorial about feeding ground. LMB-like, right? Their body shape is really more like a LMB than a BG to my eye.

If you manage for trophy LMB in a small pond isn't a key issue controlling their numbers? I assume that a pond this size couldn't support many 10lb + fish. Here's where a big advantage of GSF comes into play. Using the same ratio of biomass/water volume you could have 10 good size GSF for every 10lb LMB you don't have. We are fortunate because we will have the 5 acre pond for trophy LMB.

Other advantages over LMB are that GSF are super tolerant of bad water conditions including low DO, high temps (over 100 degrees F), and toxic chemicals to name a few. They don't seem as likely to become hook shy as LMB, partly because there would be 10 X more individual fish than the same total weight of LMB.

Like any well fed apex fish I know they would need aggressive population control. What about regular trapping/transfer of small and medium GSF to the larger trophy bass pond? I would also move large females as recommended by Dr Bruce, which is also beneficial because male GSF get larger. Essentially the Greenie pond might serve as forage production for the LMB pond.

This article got me excited about the different indigenous fish I might collect for this pond:

http://www.nanfa.org/articles/acgeorgia.shtml

Here are some of the fish that guy collected in road side waters in my area:

Banded Sunfish

Pirate Perch

Sharpfin Chubsucker

Bayou Topminnow

Grass Pickerel

Brook Silverside

Pygmy Sunfish

Lemon Killifish

Fliers

Okay, I know I'm getting carried away, but that article got me excited about what I might do with my little pond. When I was a kid all I did on warm days was play in creeks and ponds. I can't wait to get back at it.

g-dub, a couple more related thoughts from el dorado.

for the past year, those lunker GSF of mine you admire have been the apex predator. with my relatively clear water situation, i've seen no evidence yet of cross-breeding, but everything is still very young. i too am hoping that the species remain distinct but realize i've set myself up for a potential lepomis mutt pond cross-bred situation. despite this, the younger GSF (now over 5-inches) are growing at an alarming rate, extremely bloated bellies and very very aggressive. the ranchpond lunkers are adding alarming girth. i attribute this to having a good gam population, GSF fry, BG fry, and small BG for the large GSF. i am extremely happy with this situation as long as it lasts, but will be watching closely as the biomass nears carrying capacity. at the first indication of any underfed fish (namely the BG), i'll probably put 10 to 20 adult same sex LMB in the pond. i would hate to decimate the GSF, but in my size pond, so few non-breedding bass and having weed cover should allow the GSF to continue to trophy sizes. my current thinking FWIW.

Dave, have you allowed yourself to dream what the maximum size of a GSF in your pond might be?

I can't find a state record listed for California.

Maybe you already have it.

Well, if the GSF get pushed out you can still manage for nice BG. I would untimatly be happy with a healthy population of any sunfish.

Some good news, my neighbor who has a little pond upstream from my proposed GSF pond is interested in experimenting with GSF. His little pond is in bad shape and might have experienced a fish kill. He has bigger ponds also, and the idea of a small GSF pond that his grandkids would enjoy sounded good to him. I'm going over there today to take some photos and measurements.

Also for more GSF - LMB comparisons; if GSF have enough room they don't spawn in groups.

GW what I have seen is that like most lepomis they are colony spawners but in smaller groups of nests.

Are the nests as closely spaced as other lepomis?

I read that the male GSF are extremely territorial while on a nest. Are BG similar when nesting?

Yes nests are about the same but just not as many. Where BG may have 10 to 100 nests GSF seem to have 5 to 15. As with BG they are both territorial and there are some solitary nesters as well.

bruce, i havent tried to locate a CA state record, and if you cant find it, maybe no one has ever submitted. anyways, chasing records seems to me like too much trouble when i'm happy just knowing myself i got some happy healthy hogs....and having a few of you guys oooh and ahhh at the pics.

regarding maximum sizes....tell you the truth, after stocking those bad boys last year, i actually thought they would shrink from lack of forage (LMB fry). what a surprise that they're still growing, and growing fat. makes me wonder if i could document a 12 or 13 incher at 1.5 lbs plus......then in my dreams i would lay claim to the consistenly largest GSF in north america

a small observation between my BG and GSF....the GSF definitely hang in different areas generally deeper and on the fringes of schooling BG. They are clearly the opportunists who use the perhaps less astute BG (i was going to say "dumber") to locate food sources. whether insects on surface or thrown pellets, the GSF lie in wait below the BG and when food is present on the surface, thrust themselves vertically through the BG school snatching the food before the slower BG, and quickly diving back down to the bottom. i watch variations of this every evening i'm able to give a hand feed or chase a few insects into pond.

The Georgia record was only 11 inches but weighed 1lb 7oz. Dr Peter Moyle who comes up most often when I'm researching GSF stated that the maximum size is 2.2 lbs. I can live with that.

That is equal to you catching a 20 lb LMB - it will not happen very often if at all. I don't think anyone on the forum has caught a LMB that size or even close.

Here for FishBase GSF

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3371

lgth -- 31cm - 12.205 in
wt --- 960 gm - 2.117 lbs

As it turns out I'll be able to try a GSF pond before my pond is ready. Mr. H, my neighbor, has several ponds including one that's about 1/5 acre located just behind his house. This pond is in rough shape now and may have suffered a fish kill. I offered to help him with the pond, which of course means asking you all to help me, help him. I mentioned my idea for a Greenie pond and he liked it enough to try it in his pond.

I think it's a great approach for this pond for a few reasons. Unlike his other ponds, this one is dependent on run-off from a fairly small watershed, so it's likely to get low at times. At this point it has lost about 2/3 of it's volume. GSF are often the last fish to survive in low water situations like this making them a good choice I think. I've read that they can survive DO down to 4 mg/L (I assume that's pretty low). A GSF pond matches Mr. H's goal of providing fun fishing for his grandchildren. If we can get decent sized fish then it will also provide a handy supply of good eating fish.

Here's what I know about the pond so far:

*The pond is about 12 years old.

*At full pool it's about 130 ft by 50 ft.

*It's maximum depth is about 10 ft, but it's down about 5 feet.

*Based on good clay content and Mr. H's observations the pond doesn't leak.

*It's had a duckweed (watermeal) problem which has been treated chemically without success.

*About 1 year ago (3) 11 inch GC were stocked, but no reduction in the watermeal was observed.

*No fish have been observed in several months, including the GC. (I don't know what was previously stocked, but will ask soon.)

*The pond has a good population of tadpoles and frogs.


I've caught 6 inch GSF in Mr. H's big pond, and I'm thinking that we could collect some to stock the small pond. Mr. H has some fish pellets and is willing to regularly hand feed.

Would it be wise to add some GSF now and hope for a spawn, or is it too late in the season?

Would it be better to add Fatheads and let them multiply before adding GSF?

Can the GSF thrive with the duckweed/watermeal? Can Gambusia?

Can the GSF thrive without a forage fish population, relying on tadpoles, insects, and pellet feeding?

Any input will be appreciated.

I agree ewest. I meant that I can live with a fish whose potential is 2.2lbs. A good number of scrappy 1lb fish is my primary goal.

My secondary goal is to beat the 1lb 7oz Ga record (and post my pic on Cecil's website).

Get rid of the DW first as it can kill all the fish even GSF and FH. Check out the DW posts here. In a small pond you can seine , drag or net most of the DW. Then be prepared to treat it until no more shows up. Spray the banks and anywhere you see it.

Also check the water/soil to see the alkalinity.

for mine, the heaviest i've noted so far since getting the boga is just a hair under 1.25 lb.

with dropping water levels ahead and subsequent concentration of forage....who knows, maybe 1.5 on the horizon? 1.75 by Fall???? still dreaming

good luck GW.

1.25 lbs would be a new state record here.

I just now found Jeff's Green Sunfish thread. Looks like I'm late to the party.

Jeffhasapond, DIED, I'm thinking we should start a Green Sunfish club. I'm working on some names.

Greenie
Appreciation
Group

Greenie
Association of
Superior
Pondmeisters

Cyanellus
Research &
Appreciation
Project

G.A.G.
G.A.S.P.
C.R.A.P.

hmm nice ring to all of them

i noticed my pic links were busted in jeff's old thread. i'll try and restore those. a while back i moved pics in photobucket from a general folder to a fish folder, that's probably when it happened.

..........perhaps i should consider an overnight package for you theo?

GW, you are now officially the 5th member of the Green Sunfish Club as follows:

Member #1 and Club President: Dave Davidson1

Member #2: Dave In El Dorado (aka DIED)

Member #3: Jeffhasapond

Member #4: Joey

Member #5: GW

A certificate will be in the mail shortly, unfortunately I traded the remaining decoder rings for a six pack of beer so you're out of luck there.


Joey was the last inductee to the club in this thread... GSF club membership

We don't have an official club name yet so perhaps would should take a vote after performing the secret hand shake.

I hate to tell you greenie lovers,...but ya'll are one rogue redear away from Armageddon.

Today I spoke with a person who has been managing ponds for over 20 years and currently works for a well respected pond management company. I asked him about a source for good GSF genes and of course he wanted to know why in the world I would want that. He seemed interested (or amazed), so he got the whole story. He has never heard of anyone managing for trophy Greenies. I mentioned a small group of misfits on the PB forum.

When I told him I intended to trap and transfer the smaller GSF to a LMB pond he said that in his experience GSF don't thrive in such a pond because the LMB prefer them over other lepomis. That's a good thing, me thinks.

Oh, and Bruce......

IN YOUR FACE!

That's classic. But oh so wrong.

I like them because the smaller ones are perfect bass forage. If they live, nothing messes with them but me. You'll know it when one gets on the line.

For quite awhile, I lived the mantra and tossed them on the bank. Then I noticed that they were kickin butts and takin names at feeding time. I like that.

I doubt that anyone has ever studied this. I wonder if the "undesirable" progeny from a HBG has the size capability of either parent. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the F1's from ML's GG's were allowed to grow undisturbed in his ponds with plentiful feed.

EXPERIMENT IDEA ALERT!
HINT! HINT! HINT!

Interesting question DD1. Is there a lot of variation in the shape/size in the F1's?

Which gets me thinking. Consider what makes GG special - big mouth and aggressiveness which helps them attain maximum BG size more quickly and easily than pure BG. Pure BG can get near 5lbs and it seems like GSF traits (big mouth/aggressiveness) are responsible for the rapid growth in GG. GSF already have the traits that should make it easy to manage them for trophy size (1 1/2lbs). If you can live with a fish that lacks the BG size potential, and be happy with fish upwards of 2lbs, then why not go with the pure genetics of the GSF? That way you don't have to change how you manage for future generations. In fact you can actively select better fish and improve your fishes genetics.

GSF are everything that GG are (just smaller)(and better LMB forage)(and genetically pure).

Which brings up another possible misconception about GSF, that they aren't as fecund as BG. What about this:

"Spawning occurs in Lepomis cyanellus when the water rises above 21 degrees Celsius (70 degrees Fahrenheit). It is thought that L. cyanellus may produce the same number of eggs as Lepomis macrochirus, which is roughly 50,000. It takes normally 1 to 2 days for the eggs to hatch and another 5 to 7 days of protection from the male until they become independent (Parr, 2002)."

It doesn't make sense to say on one hand that GSF don't reproduce enough (to be good forage), and then say that they tend to overpopulate (leading to stunting). Seems that GSF reproduce just as much as other lepomis, but are preferred and preyed upon more by larger predators because of their shape.

The common wisdom about Green Sunfish isn't adding up.

I have almost no knowledge here, but some questions. GW, you're asking what I've been thinking as I've followed this thread. If GSF over populate and stunt, then why can't they provide enough forage? I understand the concept of their competition with small bass, but could that not be used as a management tool for LMB as well?

This maybe some of the answer GW:

If the GSF only spawns once per year while BG spawn 2 or more times per year this would of course make the BG a better forage choice for LMB.

I'm no fish expert and you raise some interesting questions. I look forward to seeing where the discussion goes.

As I said earlier, my pond only had LMB and GSF in it when I purchased the property and the relative weight in my bass was significantly low. At the beginning of March I added lots (over 3,000) fingerling BG and the relative weight of my LMB had improved significantly by the end of April.

That's not particularly scientific but there it is.

Originally posted by jeffhasapond:

I was thinking of perhaps

"Reckless Enthusiasts of Cyanellus Trying to Utilize Murderous Sunfish"

and will allow usage of this conditionally upon my acceptance as the seventh member of the club.

Thanks jeffhasapond, more peices to the puzzle.

I'm curious about the idea that GSF only spawn once a year. Is the same true of any other Sunfish? Your experience must have some significance, but I'd like to know more. For example, are there possibly some unusual circumstances that can cause GSF to spawn multiple times in a season? I think it's established that many fish will adjust their spawning behavior to environmental influences. Maybe if they were the apex predator in a pond they would spawn more often.

At this time my focus is on a Greenie pond without larger predators.

Shorty, I'm really hoping that you can gather some data from your neighbor with the GSF pond. It would be great if he used the internet and would join the forum and discuss his pond.

...........

no

He wasn't home Sunday afternoon when I knocked his door but I will keep trying.

Thanks Shorty.

Hey, aren't you at least an honorary member?

Only if you say so, the one lonely male GSF we had in our pond many years ago was removed by my brother. As of last summer only one of his hybrid offspring is still known to exist in our pond, according to my brother-in-law he was 11-1/4" long last July.

Now if I remember right, jeffhasapond also has a substantial amount of aquatic vegetation in his pond which will have an influence on the efficacy of predation relationships.

Heck, I don't even have a pond yet!

I'll find out soon if I'm "managing" my neighbor's pond. I told him what I would do, and my price for doing it (zero, and worth every penny).

If he goes for it my first order of business will be to construct a "corral" in his big pond. Then, I will (have no choice but to) start fishing that pond for GSF. I'll start pellet training my new herd until their new home is ready.

I'm also going to get some FH in the small pond as soon as I get a handle on the watermeal. I don't have much patience so I'll probably start straining the weeds out manually until the chemicals start to work.

I welcome any feedback from you experienced pond bossers.

Originally quoted by GW:

Ouch!

I'm not sure a wannabe pondmeister can fall any lower than to be REJECTED for membership in the Green Sunfish Club.

OK, you show the proper outlook; broadmindedness. I agree. Any other opinions?

After thinking about it more, I hope that GSF wouldn't spawn more than once a year, even if they are the apex predator. Granted it would mean less small fish to trap and move to the LMB pond, but it also means less work controlling their numbers. In a little pond the population control could probably be accomplished with rod and reel.

GSF will spawn more than once in one year in the right conditions.

these (5/07 pics) are the product of two spawns last year:

first spawn (~july-august 06)


second spawn (~oct-nov 06):


it helps to live in a place where 90 degree days are possible into november.

Dave, can you offer some evidence that the fish spawned twice? Couldn't that variation in size come from the same spawn?

Whether or not they do spawn more than once a year is a wash in my opinion. One spawn = less work to maintain a limited population. Multiple spawns = more forage for your larger fish.

I don't know after that rather disparaging name suggestion.

Maybe if Yolk wore a pink T-Shirt every day during the next Pond Boss Convention that had the following on the front and back...I'm A Reckless Enthusiasts of Cyanellus Trying to Utilize Murderous Sunfish" (using of course the acronym only). And if he was put on Top Secret Double Probation I would consider his membership.

But anymore blasphemous remarks like that from Yoke and I'll have to check the treasury to see if we have enough funds to hire someone to "adjust his attitude."

In a recent pole at a Law Enforcement convention the most feared organizations were ranked as follows:

1. Mafia

2. Yakuza

3. Triad

4. Pond Boss Green Sunfish Club

Ya just shouldn't mess with the Green Sunfish Club, ya just shouldn't.

:D That's a very polite way of saying my pond is overrun with Elodea.

That's not a bad idea, even though Shorty removed GSF from his own pond (a DIRECT violation of Article 2, Subsection 7, Paragraph B of the GSF Club's Membership Rules and Regulations) he does speak of GSF with dignity and respect. It is my belief that Shorty should receive the very first Honorary Member designation with all of the rights and privileges that do convey with such a prestigious title.

I second that motion.

Originally posted by Dave Davidson1:

That's very generous of you. For the last several years, I've usually been accused of "broadhindedness" instead.


Originally posted by jeffhasapond:

Jeff, I appreciate your forebearance, and have a project underway which may improve my chances of acceptance in this august organization in the future-more on this if it comes to fruition.

By the way, I think you left off your list of most feared organizations my personal favorite, the S.P.S.D.P*, which rumor has it has a strike team in Denton, Neb., just biding their time.


*Society for the Prevention of Sexual Deviancy in Panfish.

Shorty tends to reject club memberships.

While I've told him he's a member of B.I.S.A., he still refuse to acknowledge the same.

Perhaps is the $1,450,000.00 initiation fee.

Who knows?

jeff.... ....yer funny.

yolk, at my place, i have the red carpet out for panfish deviancy.....if bruce's fish only knew where the party really was.......

g-dub, i'll give you that it could have been different parental fish spawning at different times, but my belief is that it is not a difference in growth rates due to the consistent and large number of fish in each size class.....there's no tweeners.

Keep in mind that it only takes three or four rogue males in a late nesting mood to pull off a "late spawn". If you were to get out your filet knife in mid to late summer and clean several females you'll find ovaries in varying stages of development. I believe that the mere presence of nest guarding males will stimulate a certain number of female bluegill, or probably greenies to prepare to lay eggs. In bluegill and green sunfish I've found it (multiple nestings) to be the rule, rather than the exception. In nature there's a tremendous benefit to multiple spawns, as this gives a population insurance from irregular weather patterns, or the periodic presence of high densitiy predator populations.

I got the OK from Mr. H, my neighbor, to work on rehabilitating his small pond. I plan on ordering Sonar AS for the watermeal, and a bottom diffuser.

Your post is encouraging Bruce, because I would love to get some adult GSF into the pond and see them spawn this year. Is that reasonable for newly introduced fish?

What would be a good goal as far as numbers of GSF to collect for this 1/5 acre pond? It's currently at half of normal pool. I may order 500 Gams to stock and wait for 2 or 3 weeks before adding the GSF. During this time I would begin pellet training the Greenies in a netted area of Mr. H's 7 acre pond. Are the Gams worth it ($100) with that short time frame? Once the GSF are in the pond they will be pellet fed daily. I'm thinking that maybe I should forget about waiting for the Gams to multiply so that I have a better chance of a GSF spawn this year.

Any thoughts?

g-dub, on the gams, thats a bit pricey, but you dont need many if the pond has shallow weedy areas for them to hide. you might have seen me post before, i stocked NINE mosquito fish in April 06, and by the end of the summer i had in the tens of thousands. as long as the Gams have shelter, you can put the GSF in at the same time.

GSF are amazing. if you stock adult GSF, they will easily spawn the first year provided you stock well before Fall. I stocked ~29 adults (lunkers ) and every corner of my ~ 1 acre pond now has GSF.

GSF are the best i've ever seen at surviving in the worst conditions. i have a small pool (10 x 30) in the seasonal creek below my house to which GSF fry and YOY migrate upstream in the winter (to escape LMB predation in the ranch pond). By early summer the (formerly) YOY have matured enough to spawn.

My first pond brood of summer 2006 (pictured on previous page) are now spawning. in the absence of heavy (LMB) predation, the GSF population numbers are staggering in my pond. the shallows where not choked with weeds are choked with minute fry that are now likely a combination of BG and GSF (and hopefully RES).

regarding the pellet feeding......my GSF learned immediately only because the BG were taking feed. the GSF in the pool below my house will not readily take feed. you might find, in the absence of BG, you'll have to work at it to get them to take feed.

Ok, I'll call of the attitude adjustment team. But just remember we will be watching, we are always watching. Speaking of which - stop eating those Cheetos, you'll spoil your dinner.


They are on a "watch dog" list. As DIED mentioned we not only approve of sexual deviancy in our Sunfish we encourage it. I did however enjoy their recent 60 Minutes segment "Pornography and Panfish - Are your Fry Safe?"

I can attest to that. When Dave and I netted Gams from his pond he had HUGE schools of them - all from a mere nine.

We netted about 50-75 and put them in my pond last year. In April I spotted several schools of what I believe to be Gam fry and each school numbered in the thousands. The are prolific little beasties.

Just remember Dave, what happens in El Dorado stays in El Dorado.

This is going to be an interesting experiment GW!

Is the pond 1/5 acre at half full or are you saying that it's 1/5 at full pool and so therefore it is currently at 1/10 acre?

Bruce has a ton of experience in raising large sunfish - I would think all of the same rules and recommendations apply whether your are raising BG or GSF.

The pond is 1/5 acre at full pool. I'm going to start a new thread about the rehabbing of this pond that will focus on all aspects and not just Greenies.

For now I'm off to see if I can collect some gams in one of Mr. H's other three ponds.

(Today I'm helping him plant peanuts. My girlfriend thinks "farmer tan" is too sexy....)

".....recent 60 Minutes segment "Pornography and Panfish - Are your Fry Safe?"


"Just remember Dave, what happens in El Dorado stays in El Dorado."

I'm going to be looking into the idea of mixing RES with the GSF. I'm curious about whether they would be very likely to cross breed, and if so what the offspring would be like. I can't imagine what the downside of such a cross would be.

RES strike me as a great fish even though I've never fished for them. Any thoughts about how RES might influence a pond managed for trophy GSF?

GW, I'm just assuming that you never read the RES thread.

Here it is for reference. I highly suggest that you read it in it's entirety - beginning to end.

RES Thread

There was a reason for this comment by one of our resident sunfish experts....

Talk about mixing the WORST of both worlds.

No more likely to crossbreed than any other two Lepomis species, i.e. it doesn't happen very often. GSFxRES crosses should grown bigger than pure Greenies do.

Theo, Theo, Theo, sometimes you have such a cruel, dry sense of humor.

Adding RES to the GSF pond is appealing becuase for one thing it's a bigger fish. The snail control is nice too.

Would it take much effort to control RES numbers in a Greenie pond? They seem a little more difficult to cull by fishing than GSF.

How would they do in a pond that only averaged 4 feet deep and was very warm? I'm referring to Mr. H's pond which may vary from 10 ft to 5ft at full pool depending on the weather pattern.

RES are the only sunfish NOT reported to overpopulate. I don't think they'll overrun the GSF.

I would think that you would be fine with a RES and GSF mix. Heck I mixed RES, GSF and BG. Of course time will tell if I created toxic sunfish soup.

When I added the additional sunfish (RES and BG) I expressed concerns about cross hybridization and was told the same thing that Theo just told you. Some hybridization could occur but it shouldn't really be an issue. On the other had Shorty mentioned a pond or lake in which quite a bit of hybridization occurred so I don't know.

I added RES for the same reason you are considering it - snail patrol.

Also keep in mind that when the pond is at it's lowest level during the heat of the summer it would be very easy to seine it to remove fish if fishing wasn't controlling the population enough.

Theo made a great point several pages back about GSF being more like bass in behavior than like BG. GSF are highly aggressive and (for a sunfish) have huge mouths. It seems to me that if you are trying to raise "trophy" quality GSF, which IMHO would have to be over 1.5 lbs, you will have to manage specifically for that (much like Bruce does with his BG). Providing enough food (forage or sunfish chow) and proper culling will be a issue that you will have to work out.

This does sound like a great project.

Given how much my meager GSF fight I would imagine that a GSF that weighed over 1.5 lbs (on light tackle) would be a blast to catch.

If you proceed with this it will be very interesting to compare your results with DIED in a year or two. He has GSF at 1.25 lbs already. Like myself he added BG and RES and has gams by the thousands and is feeding in addition. In his pond GSF are the dominant predator. I am not sure if he is still thinking of adding bass or not. I would not be surprised at all if DIED were to catch a 1.5 pound GSF in the not too distant future.

My pond is a completely different situation since I have LMB and am focusing on getting their relative weight up and overall size up. Based upon what my neighbors have said my pond use to have LMB that were in the 4 to 5 pound range in it. But no one was monitoring what was being removed and I guess the big bass were taken out. All that has nothing to do with GSF, I guess the point that I was trying to make was that I will not be in the running for producing trophy GSF.

[Ya know I edited this post eight times to remove stupidity and it could probably use a ninth or tenth stupidity removal process. I just can't stop editing. Put the mouse down and back away from the keyboard. "Word" can spell check and check for grammar, is there a program to scan a post for stupidity? - - Norton Anti Stupid Version 5.1 or something? Of course maybe I'm better off if such a program is not available. If the moderators used such a program to scan this forum probably 80% of my posts would be removed. Oh well, time for more coffee.]

What does the science show about lepomis crosses. There is quite a bit out there and some of it is surprising. That said lets start with the seminal paper by Childers. I picked out a few points to ponder. Note the difference in the % male offspring in reciprocal Rm X Gf (70%)and Gm X Rf (50%). That last # means the primary reason (other than catchability) being low reproduction is missing from half (low viability half - G X R) of the R X G pairing and still much higher than HBG ( 90%+) in the other pairing . Lots of babies means high potential stunting. Where was this thread going ?

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth.

4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.


The R × G, G × B, and W × G pairing successfully hybridized each time they were tested.

4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.


4.4 Rate of growth
In an attempt to determine whether certain F1 hybrid sunfishes actually grow faster than their parent species, two experiments were conducted in which equal numbers of uniformly sized F1 hybrids and parent species were stocked in ponds which contained no other fishes. Intraspecific competition is keener than interspecific competition because individuals of the same species are more nearly equal in their structural, functional, and behavioural adaptations. Consequently in experiments designed to compare rates of growth, it is imperative to use equal numbers of similarly sized fishes. In the first experiment the growth rate of BG F1 hybrids was compared to that of green sunfish. In the second experiment the growth rates of GR F1 hybrids, green sunfish, and red-ear sunfish were compared.

In both experiments the average increase in total length of the hybrids was not significantly different from the increases of the parental species. The population densities of the fishes in both ponds were much lower than would be found in most normal natural populations. In both experiments intraspecific and interspecific competition was undoubtedly quite light; consequently, the question of whether certain F1 hybrid sunfishes are superior to their parent species in rate of growth cannot be answered until high density populations containing equal numbers of equal sized hybrids and parent species are studied.

Thanks ewest, that's interesting.

Trophy

Green

Sunfish.

:p

originally posted by JHAP: "..............It seems to me that if you are trying to raise "trophy" quality GSF, which IMHO would have to be over 1.5 lbs, ............"

i dunno jeff......i'd like to think we both have trophy fish right now. based on my experiences and what i've seen here at PB, anything over 9-inches and approaching a pound is trophy quality.

IIRC, rmedgar once said "hold on there pilgrims" when jeff was originally vying for largest private pond GSF in north america (per cecil's website).....rmedgar...any pics? no other PMs except maybe bill cody have posted GSF from their ponds.....i'd love to see them as i'm sure DD1, g-dub, and jeff would as well. give it up guys......show off yer GSF! it would be nice to have a thread showing GSF diversity across the country (even if they are only 6 inches long )

jeff, here's one you'll like, on the cross-breeding sub topic here, sunday, lake pardee, drop shot rig, worm chunk, deep weedbed at 35 foot, caught a ~9 to 9.5-inch RES (i think a female ) who now has a bunch of new friends at my place. she'll add some genetic diversity.

I'll just kick in my deservedly humble opinion.

I think a green sunfish is trophy sized at 3/4 pound. I'm not exagerating when I say that I've caught thousands, maybe ten thousand or more greenies and have never caught a single, legitimate 3/4 pounder.

I think those pics Bill posted are fairly common as an indicator of GSF as is the one Bruce posted in the archives.



The small one is common size and the big one would be trophy size based on studies I have seen.

Yep I most certainly would like to see photos of GSF. Come on folks Post 'em if ya got 'em.


Any idea what the RES weighed Dave? That is gonna be a great addition and I agree couldn't hurt with the genetic diversity.

If ya ever catch LMB over a pound I'd like to toss them in my pond. Same reason, change up the gene pool. My neighbor mentioned to me that a few years back he personally had caught a 4.5 pound LMB out of my pond. I guess that people kept pulling out all of the larger bass. So if ya ever catch one keep it alive in your bathtub till I get there, I'm sure your wife won't mind, it's for a good cause after all.

Well that makes me feel better. I guess even my GSF are something to be proud of.

Heck yes, they are!!

EVEN my GSF?! You're on probation mister! :p

jeff, she boga'd between 0.5 and 1.0....she was gyratin around so much it was hard to get an exact reading and i wanted to get her back into water ASAP. she had really nice body condition so i'm guessing around 3/4 lb. she'll probably never forgive me for lip gripping her with cold stainless steel

i'm really serious about wanting to see GSF from around the country, babies, average size, stunted, doesnt matter, i think we need to see them....if nobody responds with some pics, i may be forced to post pictures of my pigs on every post i make in the future.

Here's a Green that I caught in Mr H's big pond the other day. At the time I was waiting to find out if he wanted me to try GSF in his little pond. Now that I have his permission I want to construct a netted area in his big pond to save these guys until the little pond is fit for fish.



Any opinions about the purity of these GSF genes?

This from the HBG thread should help.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439;p=5

GSF
Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.

BG
BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.


HBG
Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers

These should help

GSF



GSF gill rakers



HBG


HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers



Pic of GSF from Bill Cody.
Note from Cody: I am not real positive that these small fish are pure green sunfish since they came from a pond that experienced 16 or more generations(yrs) of reproduction from HBG. These fish look very much like GSF to me.

boy that sure is a pretty fish g-dub. beautiful red eyes and mottling on body. thoughts on GSF genetics?

it appears to be missing a couple key items for pure GSF including black spots on rear of dorsal fin and on anal fin, none of the fins exhibit creamy colored (yellow/white) fin edges, the pectoral fin appears more pointed (GSF being somewhat rounded), but it does have a big mouth and the right body shape (more elongate than most other lepomis). i would say other genetics are involved perhaps RES, or other eastern variety, but GSF genes dominate.

Thanks ewest.

Dave, I compared my fish to the GSF description that ewest posted and there is no conflicting indicators. The description gives a lot of room for variation of colors, and when I count spines and rays it matches.

I'm sure that there could be other sunfish gene's in this fish, what I wonder is if it matters for my purposes. It's not likely that it has genes for any smaller fish, and it's got the right shape. Can anyone explain to me if it really matters in this experiment that I confirm pure GSF genes?

GW I would not worry past what you are already doing. A number of Fisheries Scientists who have done studies on GSF X BG (HBG)and other lepomis have related that they think the pool (availability) of pure GSF is shrinking due to the results they see in the studies. I would do what you are (looking and comparing) and check the gill rakers. That should be close enough.

i'm with ewest.....in the first place one of the reasons i stocked the sunnies from the ranchpond is that they live here. there's no absolute mine are pure GSF, but they have all the attributes and then some (large growth ).

they used to be in my pond years ago before renovation and before it dried up the first time in ~1998. to everybody's knowledge in the neighborhood, they were never "stocked" in my pond, they just showed up (for those bird theory lovers we do have intense heron, egret, kingfisher, and killdeer traffic between the two ponds).

they are as close to "native" fish as i could get. they can withstand the worst conditions i have to offer, and some of those conditions are pretty harsh towards the end of summer. i figured what better gene pool to use than what is successful in my environment....give them more food than they can eat and see what happens.

most importantly have a blast......and good luck.

Could these be the same species or at least share the majority of genes?

wow, now THAT's a green sunny. notice how round the pectoral fin is compared to the first fish. olive yellow underbelly, hint of spot at rear of dorsal fin, slight whitish rim on lower fin edges. the fish look related, the lower fish though much closer to pure GSF.....IMHO......

for comparison

GW,

The top picture looks like a warmouth. The red eyes are a good indicator.

hey bobad, didnt think of that, i also dont recall ever seeing one when i lived back east....but according to my little field guide (Peterson Guide w/ big GSF on cover ) the warmouth has brown lines radiating from behind red eyes (not as prevalent in young fish), and i think you can kind of see that in the first fish.

also, g-dub, it says for warmouth to check for patch of teeth on tongue (detect by feeling with finger).

I was being a bit tricky with that last post guys. It's likely that both fish are Warmouth. I read that the eye turns red on Warmouth when they're spawning which would fit the season. There's the web page where I got the bottom photo from:

http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/okwild/misc/warmouth.html

I took the top photo and posted it on the North American Native Fishes website and two members had no doubt that it was a Warmouth. They seem to know their fish.

Apparently GSF aren't indigenous here, but WM are. It's been my goal from early on to stock local fish so........................

does this mean I'm out of the club? Oh the pain and embarrassment!

Time to research Warmouths I guess. Can anyone offer comparisons to GSF?

That bottom picture looks green sunfishy to me.

In a post at NANFA I said:

"daveneely, no offense but how sure are of this ID? Since you brought up Warmouth I'm doing comparisons between them and GSF. Can you offer any major differences?"


daveneely said:

"No offense taken, but I'm quite sure on this ID.

While there's some variation across the range (and especially across different size classes) of green sunfish, in the southeastern US they'll nearly always have a large black spot at the insertion of both the dorsal and anal fins, and usually a yellowish or white margin on all median fins. Rather than the dark-striped cheek of a warmouth (often with three dark brown lines radiating posteriorly from the eye), greens will have bluish wavy streaks under the eye and onto the cheek. If you're still not sure, crank the mouth open and look at the tongue; warmouth have a patch of teeth on the anterior part of the tongue, that greens lack. You could also count the number of scales along the lateral line (36-44 in warmouth, 43-52 in greens), etc., etc...

Hope this helps.
Dave"

Hmmmmm.

Bruce, you wouldn't believe that website! It's a bunch of nerds who talk about and play with fish all the time.

Can you believe it?! :rolleyes:

When I do a google search, then press "images" for a particular lepomid, there probably a solid 25% of the fish that are clear misidentifications.

I ain't no warmouth expert, so that top photo could be anything and I'd believe it, but that bottom photo is questionable to say the least. We've got to get Cody to weigh in.

I think I will never stop being amazed and delighted by the astounding color and pattern variations in all the assorted Lepomis.

I posted the photo of the bottom fish on the NANFA board. Let's see what they have to say about too.

I will be constructing my holding net at Mr. H's big pond tomorrow, so I will soon be collecting these big mouth lepomis in earnest. That should at least make it easy to pin down what he's got.

i'm amazed too. i'm still not convinced on the bottom fish......i'm w/ bruce til the data is in....maybe its a warmouth GSF hybrid? GSF are not indigenous in CA either.....they were brought here during the gold rush era by covered wagon.....seriously....them GSF pioneers were some tough guys.

o and BTW g-dub.....the GSFA (GSF Association) is in shock....wait til jeffhasapond learns of the crimes committed herein. i know that one of the punishments for heresy is a long walk off a short dock in a FA infested pond

OK, yeah, well, when they tell you that's a creek chub you can come back to us and get the real scoop.

Did I say Green Sunfish? Eh, I meant WARMOUTH. Yeah, that's right, I thought we were talking about Waaaaarmouth. I hate Green Sunfish, always have.

Btw, there's a debate started at the other forum over the bottom fish photo also.

Well anywho, I care mostly about what the local fish is, and if that's what I'm catching in the big pond...

Will there be many changes in switching from trophy GSF to trophy Warmouth management?

NAFTA, NANFA......ross perot......you can just hear that huge sucking sound........

Haha! When I mentioned the Pond Boss forum at the NANFA forum and included a link, someone indicated concern. Apparently they had a run in with another forum that got out of control. I told them that couldn't happen here.

....of course you can read it for yourself...

http://forum.nanfa.org/index.php?showtopic=2027

On that forum my name is "fish for brains"

"It's also a fairly mature forum, age-wise".

Who are you calling "mature"!!!

GANG WAR!!!!!!!

Thought you might like that.

When fish enthusiasts clash .

Go to your room, GeeDub. :p

i just read that thread.....wow what a difference. funny. further supports why i only spend my time here.

warmouths get bigger than GSF?
i'm supposin mr. neely nary saw one of these:



tell me when i can quit showing off........... i really liked that fish.

World record Warmouth - 2lb 7 oz Guess Lake, Holt, FL

Still love the Greens though.

No membership for you! Thankfully, due to work constraints I had not sent your membership package. You are quite fortunate. Had I mailed out your membership package and had you received one of our decoder rings or the secret hand shake instructional DVD I would have had no alternative but to enter into a "Terminate with Extreme Prejudice" contract to remedy the situation. Consider yourself lucky.


Up until this statement I assumed that you made an innocent misidentification. The GSFA may give you one final benefit of the doubt and assume that you made this statement out of false bravado however I will make no assurances. Your fate will be discussed at a secret meeting of a portion of the GSFA that will be held sometime within the next 10 days at an undisclosed location somewhere in the Sierra Nevada Foothills.

Just remember GW, we are watching, we are always watching.......


"non scompigli appena con noi"

I never said I hated Green Sunfish. I love them, always have.


We have always been at war with Eurasia.

I never said I hated Green Sunfish. I love them, always have.


We have always been at war with Eurasia.

This declaration may result in some leniency. More so sense you posted it twice.

Originally posted by GW:

Of course we have, Winston, they're well known haters of green sunfish, I've heard that the savages actually EAT them.

Careful, comrades. Big Brother is watching you.

Evidently you don't have to be able to spell "green sunfish" in order to be a member of the society.

Eurasia is a pond weed, right?

The extra space was for dramatic effect, ya that's the ticket.

Now that I found out I'm in an area with more WM than GSF can anyone tell me if I can apply the same approach with the Warmouth as the goal species?

hi i live in south central illinois and i just dug out my pond completely, it is about 80' wide and 170' long, 14' deep in center and angles right to bank, there is no shallow area's. i was wondering what type of fish would be best to put in. i'm thinking red ear or hybrid blue gill, largemouth bass and some channel cat,but alot of people are telling me to leave catfish out. i can feed these fish,that isn't a problem. what should i do and when should i put fish in and how many. someone give me a plan and a little help.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Moved to it's own thread here.

Welcome, jh!.

For your own safety, perhaps one of the moderators could move your question to it's own thread....you've innocently and inadvertantly stumbled into a long running thread driven by crazed fans of green sunfish, and I'm not sure you'll get any objective advice here. Also, we won't be able to vouch for your personal safety; you might accidently disparage the greenies, and those guys from California would come after you with tire irons and the tax code.

While your question is being moved, I'll ask you what your fishery goals are, because someone who actually knows what they're talking about is going to do that anyway, so I'll save them the trouble. Also, look under the "What types of fish to choose" heading while you're getting relocated...lots of good info there.

Originally posted by GW:

No, that was last week. This week, Eurasia is a chlorophyl enhanced oxygenator developed to provide nutrition, habitat, and aesthetic supplementation by our friend and benefactor, BB

We've talked about the GSF being easy to catch and therefore less likely to become hook-shy, but I wonder. Could it be that their aggressive feeding behavior is related to their typical situation in the food chain? It seems that they are always in heavy competition for food with LMB and other Lepomis (including themselves).

Doesn't it seem logical that larger (older), well fed GSF will also tend to become hook shy?

I have found that every fish in my ponds can become hook shy.

Yes.

Yes we could.

But then of course we would have to kill you afterwards.


I found this on a website...

RANGE AND HABITAT: Warmouth sunfish are native to Ohio, but their distribution is limited to glaciated streams and lakes in the northeast part of the state. They are abundant in one of the few natural lakes in Ohio, Nettle Lake in Williams County, and in the Scioto River drainage in south-central Ohio. Warmouth prefer weedy lakes, sluggish streams, oxbows, marshes and ponds. They are a secretive fish seeking cover in rocky banks, stumps, or weed masses to avoid direct sunlight.

I wonder if that means that you would need to perhaps plant some non invasive lily or provide some other form of shading?

LIFE HISTORY: Warmouth are not colonial spawners like other sunfish species. However, males do fan out a nest, usually near a rock, stump, clump of vegetation, or other large object. The male guards the nest until the fry disperse. During this time the male will chase intruders off with gill covers spread wide and mouth open, to make himself appear larger. Adults eat primarily crayfish, aquatic sowbugs, aquatic insect larvae, and small fish. Warmouth can take four years to reach 6 inches in length.

Once again seems like some vegetation might be in order. I could ship you some Elodea if you would like.....

Four years to reach 6 inches??? I can't imagine that this would be true if you were feeding them.

Still seems like an interesting project even if GSF aren't involved.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/warmouth.html

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3373

Fecundity of Bluegill and Warmouth from a South Carolina Blackwater Lake
Frank M. Panek and Clarence R. Cofield

Carolina Power and Light Company, Energy and Environmental Center, New Hill, North Carolina 27562

Abstract.—The relations of fecundity to total length (mm) were developed for the bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) and warmouth (L. gulosus) from a large southeastern blackwater lake. Fecundity estimates for bluegills ranged from 571 to 27,027 eggs per female and were related to total length by the expression log10 F = -2.337 + 2.839 log10 TL (mm) with r² = 0.59 (where F = fecundity and TL = total length). Bluegill fecundity was lower and diameters of mature eggs were smaller than those reported in the literature. Fecundity estimates for warmouths ranged from 798 to 34,257 eggs per female and could be expressed by the relation log10 F = -4.678 + 3.889 log10 TL (mm) with r² = 0.67. Fecundity of warmouths as determined from this relation is similar to that for fish in other habitats.