"Starting the Dream" (see post in construction forum for details) is slowly moving forward. As I think ahead probably too far ahead I have a question about fish stocking. The pond should be about 2.5 acres when completed and 15 feet deep 25-50%. After reading the pond management handbooks from many states but most importantly from SD, WI and MI since the pond will be in southern Wisconsin, those manuals except for Dr Dave Willis frown upon the BG and LMB combo stating that after the 4-5 year initial stocking the pond will be overrun by stunted BG. Since the pond is an hour away from residence, I may be unable to manage the pond as intensely as required by the authors.
My long winded question is would YP make a better forage for LMB and a few 'bonus' walleyes than BG, understanding that YP are not multiple spawners? Would this combo with fathead or shiners as supplements work better than just BG?
Thanks for all the help and wonderful reading. My wife calls me obsessed and I don;t even have a pond yet.
kurt, is there any reason you wouldn't want to go with smallies as the, or one of the, main predators?
If I had something fresh and new like your pond, I might go SMB/YP/RES/HSB/WE after having established some other forage fish like GSH; I might even time the YP in earlier than the SMB/WE/HSB.
You could spice that up with some single sex LMB also.
Fathead and shiners will be very hard to maintain in a pond with reproducing LMB. As Sunil mentions consider using SMB instead of LMB. Then the yellow perch, minnow shiner combinations becomes more viable and somewhat easier to maintain. Addition of RES would provide the sunfish portion if you like a BG type fish. RES grown-hatched in your area/region, should survive in southern WI winters. A few WE per acre would serve as a bonus fish.
Thanks for the info. I grew up fishing northern, catfish and crappie so I am a bit lost when it comes to 'exotic' fish like smallmouth, perch and walleye.
Also, according the hatcheries and WI DNR RES are at least restricted if not prohibited in WI because they are not native. The hatcheries at this point or the ones I have contacted will not provide or can not provide them.
I think smallies would be fantastic to fish but if RES are out do I need something else like BG or pumpkin seed?
Would the combo of SM/YP/WE/HSB, would these exclude CC?
thanks everyone
kurt says -"Would the combo of SM/YP/WE/HSB, would these exclude CC"? Those are all predators. The SM and YP would be reproducing which means lots of forage fish would be required to feed all those predators. To get started consider reducing the types of predators to 1-2 maybe 3. If forage fish can annually maintain good numbers and keep predators growing then consider adding a 3rd or 4th predator. Many pondowners get carried away in adding too many types of predators that reproduce and as a result overeat the food source and the balance and growth of the fish are comprised.
Pumpkinseed and golden shiners can be useful forage fish in the proper situation. BG, since they are prolific, might be adequate with all those predators you are considering.
Thanks, Bill and everyone,
I think I would go with SM/YP/WE and GSH.
I need to spend some time reading about SM spawning so I can build proper structure.
Is there anything special YP need to reproduce?
kurt, if you don't subscribe to PB, you really should... Bill has a series of articles on SMB in it that has been spectacular. You can order back copies as well to get those that have already come out.
As far as YP, they need something to "hang" their eggs on. YP have long stringy eggs. They hang them on submerged tree limbs, aquatic vegetation and other structure. So if you are trying to promote YP reproduction in your pond, sink some branched trees, either natural or artificial ones.
Bill is the perch expert though, he may be able to give you ever better info...
I signed up for a subscription today.
A series of articles about yellow perch in ponds will be coming in PBoss magazine in late 2010 - 2011.
Just want to than everyone for the input. I meet with the Pond Consultant monday the 26th to finally walk the land now that the corn has been removed. Having at least targeted the types of fish YP/SM/WE is already helping as we start the initial planning and design process.
Let us know what the consultant recommends Kurt. It's fun to follow along with a project such as this!
Just got off the phone with Tim Gollon of Gollon Fisheries of Dodgeville Wisconsin. He was squeezing eggs but still took about 30 minutes to talk to me about fish and fish stocking.
Has anyone worked with Gollon Fisheries?? He seemed like a knowledgable guy and very easy to work with.
I am not looking to bad mouth the company here on the forum, just looking to see if anyone had a positive response. I am not sure if there are many northern pondmeisters on the site and maybe even less from Southern Wisconsin area but a little feedback would be nice.
he suggested for a 1 acre pond
5 gallon FH in the spring
500-600 3-5" YP
25 WE
75-100 SMB either 3-4" or 4-6"
prices were good
We got off the subject and never asked about GSH but they sell them.
Last question for all of you concerns the catfish pond. The 1/3 acre catfish pond will sit in front of the main pond and water will flow down hill from the forage ponds to the catfish pond and from the catfish pond to into the main pond (thanks Bob for advice). I just ordered the back issue of Pond Boss that talks about piping so hopefully that will help. As the water moves from the catfish pond to the main pond, how do I prevent catfish (small ones) from flowing into the main pond where I do not want them? Depending upon the type of piping am I safe to assume that a screen of sorts will stop the fish from moving? The main reason for asking is Tim mentioned that BG would be a better forage for catfish than FH but I am concerned about BG making there way to the main pond (along with overpopulation). Since I do not live on the land I am trying to avoid feeding at this time so forage fish will be the main diet for the catfish. In all of your collective wisdom what are your ideas?
I am still having fun.
Isolate the catfish pond. Depending on amount of desired production they probably will not need flow through. Or put the catfish pond after the big pond. Connecting ponds can be detrimental when/if fish export is a problem.
I haven't heard anything bad about Gallon fisheries. I do know they are a major baitfish and walleye supplier. They supplied my state of Indiana with advanced size walleyes to plant local public lakes.
The stocking advice looks good to me. I'm assuming just the fatheads are stocked in the spring?
I would also stock GSH. I am betting your FHM will be gone within a year or two. That will only leave you YP as your major forage. If you keep your SMB numbers reasonable and don't over stock your walleye, I think you can maintain a permanent GSH population. Particularly if you stock some more advanced sized adult fish. If no GSH are present, unless your YP and SMB are pellet trained I think you may have some forage base issues.
Kurt, the Gollons are one of the most respected fish farmers in the state. Tim really knows his stuff. I have worked with them for many years.
If this is new pond construction make sure you are jumping through all of the right hoops with the Wisc DNR.
To control potential blue gill and perch overpopulation you might consider a few northern pike. Buy your fish only from liscensed hatcheries (no wild transfers).
Think ahead concerning pond plants if you introduce the plants you want at the outset you will have less problems with algae and cat-tails later.
Jim,
Welcome aboard. I'm a big fan of your research!
Jim,
Do you think a northern pike is better than LMB at controlling an overpopulation of YP or BG?. Or are you saying NP would also be a good predator and bonus fish in addition to LMB? I have found NP to also eat small adult LMB. I have found that removing a 8"-11" LMB from a pond can create a respective surplus of 200-300 1.5"-3" sunfish or YP for each bass removed. If one pike eats just 10 bass per year I think that can create a sizable excess of smaller fish annually.
No proof here, but IMO as a NP grows larger (30+") it will tend to eat a larger percentage of bass compared to BG in previous years. This could then be counterproductive i.e. removing a more and more bass compared to BG. Are there any studies of the diet of smaller vs larger pike in the presence of primarily BG and LMB communities?
I have read on site and in the articles that Bill Cody wrote that there is limited research on future generations of pellet trained YP as it relates directly to how well future generations stay on pellets especially if an abundance of minnows is available.
I realize the benefit of feeding and the increase in production capabilities, however, are we saying that at some point when the first generation of pellet trained YP are harvested or die or regress to minnows over a northern winter without future stocking of pellet trainied YP, YP will become primarily or exclusively minnow eaters? Is the benefit of feeding then limited to that first generation?
Just wondering.
Very good question. The answer is "it all depends". It depends on at least three important things. I am giving away all my secrets.
1. It depends on how domesticated the original stocker perch were. This item is very important. The more or longer the stock had been domesticated the easier, quicker, and more likely the youngsers will take to feed. I prefer to deal with a strain of YP that has been domesticated since 1979 - 30+ years. A very high percentage of each generation of these fish easily take to pellets. It is importrant to know the history of your stocker fish.
2. Size of the pond. The smaller the pond, the larger the percentage of young YP are exposed to pellets and thus the larger the percent of each year class that takes to pellets. Crowding seems to be imporatant in pellet training.
3. Efforts to pellet train. I make it a point each year to catch some (50-80) YOY perch from the pond and pellet train them in a cage for 6-12 months. Releasing them back into the pond then insures numerous pelleting eating fish.
4. I think it is important to use softened or hydrated feed esp when pellet training.
Another thing I once or twice do annually is to fish with minnows in the pond and remove all YP caught. This tends to thin out minnow eating YP.
Now we all know how Bill grows massive YP...
Bill, you make a good point that at some level the pike may feed on smaller LMB. I probably would not let the pike get to 30"+ (they are plenty tasty). I think the pike will probably eat the panfish at a bigger size than the bass and may provide better control. With proper cover the bass will not be as available to predation as the panfish. I don't think this is an either/or consideration and I like the idea of hooking into a running, thrashing, water-wolf every now and again (just my $0.02).
About the pellet trained perch. We have seen much better training success over the years. I'm sure some of it is due to better diets and techniques. I suspect (but haven't proven) that some of the success is due to genetic predisposition. If you don't eat the food I am giving you, you starve and don't get to reproduce for the next generation. I think that having a subpopulation of trained fish will help to train the others.
While perch are minnow eaters (they're opportunists like everyone else) they would prefer to make a living eating bugs and its hard to provide enough bugs for everyone. We have seen many ponds over the years with incidental populations of minnows but the perch are only interested in eating the pellets.
I use dry floating feed to train (Silver Cup or Aquamax) but the real secret is freeze-dried krill. For the first few weeks of training the fish get about 10% krill powder mixed in with the feed and the results are excellent. I start training when the perch are 18-20mm (3/4") using a number 2 crumble and once the are eating well I go to a 1mm pellet, I really like the Silver Cup steel head diet (nice round oily pellet).
Using millows to thin-out the piciverous perch is a great idea!
Jim
Jim, Good information and ideas.
The problem that I have found with the rare top end predator in a perch or bass pond is difficulty in catching them when you want to and at the ideal size. One tends to always catch them when they are too small or too big or not at all. Frustrating. The darn fish won't read or follow the game plan.
I have an interesting perch fishery to tell you about. Small pond 0.2 ac, stocked first with FHM, bluntnose minnows, and grass shrimp. It cooks for one season. To this over a two year period we add 100 pellet conditioned just female YP 8"-9" long (B.Lynch Farm). Fish were well conditioned to AMax pellets. Owner after about a year got lazy and rarely fed perch since there appeared to be so many minnows present; why add pellets. Now he has lots of very thin bodied (very low Wr) perch and still an abundance of minnows and shrimp - mostly bluntnose. I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it first hand. The YP looked so bad this summer when they came up for a pellet offering, I felt sorry for them many were to a point of being emaciated.
You mention - "I think that having a subpopulation of trained fish will help to train the others." I also am a firm believer of using "teacher" fish when training larger fish such as YP and BG to pellets. As you know competition, hunger, and crowding also probably play a big part in fish learning to "try" a sinking or floating food. Trying vs accepting are two very important items in pellet training fish. Your method of training perch works very well, for as you mention, training fry and post larval YP. The YP I primarily work with for feed training are a minimum 3" and maximum 7" long. Above I called them YOY perch but many of them are 6-16 months old when feed training starts. They require a little different size and consistancy of starter food but flavors and basic ingredients are similar to your methods.
Again, welcome to this Forum. We are always excited to have another official "fish squeezer" among us.
For we YP disciples this is like watching the Super Bowl...it's pretty cool when Bill gets excited about something...you can tell he's writing from the soul. [sorry to talk about you like you left the room, Bill]
Okay Jim, now it's your turn. This is invaluable information.