I am looking for stocking recommendations for my pond in SE Michigan (I am just south of Ann Arbor).
BASIC INFO:
Pond is excavated with clay walls all the way through and was completed last July.
It is being fed by rainwater only, though I may drill a well in the future to keep it topped off in the summer months as needed.
The pond has approximately 1.5 acres of surface area with about a 1.2 acre rectangle at full depth (ranges from 12 feet on one end to 15 feet on the other). There is also about .3 acre swimming area that juts out. It has a large open area that only goes to 6 feet, then has an 8-1 sloped beach area.
Currently, the water has about 5 feet left to go until it is full. The main area currently has about an acre of surface area with depths ranging from 7-10 feet at the bottom. The swimming area has about a foot of water. If I don't put in a well, I'd estimate that it should be near-full by the end of the year.
There appears to be no leaks. So far, it holds water well, and has only gone up, never down, even last august when it first started filling.
I did not specifically build or sink any structure for the fish.
I am planning to try to keep weeds and plant growth to a minimum (as much as I can reasonably control it anyway).
I have an aeration system installed, though I am not currently running it.
Realistically, I will be the only one fishing the pond, and it's unlikely that I'll remove very many fish per year.
GOALS:
- Primarily a swimming pond. Fish are secondary.
- I want to keep the pond as clean as possible.
- I want low maintenance...I don't want to feed the fish every day, and I don't want to worry about having to kill off fish when they overproduce and stunt themselves.
- I'd rather have a few good-sized fish, than a lot of smaller ones.
QUESTIONS:
- What should I stock & when to meet these goals? Phases?
- I am concerned about LMB/BG combos. I likely won't pull too many out per year. Will BG overproduce? I can't drain pond if they do. HBG will be stunted eventually if I go that route, right? If I did LMB-only, I'd need to feed them? (I don't think I can get HSB in Michigan).
- Are there any special considerations I should take into account since the pond may not be especially fish-friendly (keeping down weeds & algea, no structure, focussing on clean swimming pond, etc)?
- Can anyone recommend reputable fish-sellers in my area?
MANY THANKS!!!
Derek - Check and see if Spring Valley Trout Farm at Dexter MI still carries LM bass. For your listed goals, I would stock a total of 30-40 LMB fingerlings or up to 6"-8"ers; nothing else. We do this stocking scenario often for swimming ponds in NW Ohio. Bass will not get much larger than 10"-12" unless you provide an additional food source such as minnows, panfish or pellets(if bass pretrained for pellet food). Addition of other fish will cause more maintenance to maintain a good balance. The LMB will not bother swimmers and will not overpopulate. You just won't be bothered by fishing buddies wanting to fish your pond because bass are too small. Bass could be stocked in fall or spring of 2008.
Weeds will be your biggest problem.
Given your low input/low output wrt fishing plan, I suggest you consider fish with no, low, or limited reproductive potential. These include:
HBG (if you manage these properly, it is to get virtually no effective reproduction, hence no stunting)
HSB (oops, I think you're right that they're a no-no in MI)
SMB
RES
CC
Walleyes
If you are stocking predators in numbers that will remain rather limited (i.e. not LMB), initial forage species stockings of GSH and even FHM, in addition to providing a good start-up, may last indefinitely.
Some things to consider to help refine your fish choices:
-Will you want to and be able to restock species on an annual (or perhaps longer interval) basis, or do you want populations which maintain themselves without restocking?
-What kind of fishing do you enjoy? What kinds of fish do you like to catch?
-Are you willing to put in spawning structures as might be needed for some species? These need not be intrusive wrt swimming access.
Brettski went through a similar kind of decision process with some defining parameters in common with yours. IIRC he didn't want to worry about LMB and BG overpopulating and had no strong fishing preferences. He ended up choosing RES/YP/SMB (which does require special spawning structures for the YP & especially SMB to reproduce). See his
Help me adopt my fish family thread for ideas to help your decision.
If you don't get any better fish supplier recommendations, Stony Creek (Equipment, IIRC) is in MI and handles most of the species I've mentioned. I have never bought fish from them, but I have been happy with equipment I've gotten from them. Bill Cody has also listed them as a source to go to for "stuff." They are a PBMag advertiser.
Bill I have also seen that done in conjunction with adding a few adult HBG every few years as put and take fish. Because the LMB #s are high relative to the HBG what few HBG offspring that occur are quickly consumed.
Thanks to everyone for the input thus far.
Not 100% sure about Spring Valley...I know they focus on on trout & run fishing ponds for visitors. When I checked their website a while back, they didn't have LMB, even though I think one of the government sites listed them as having them. They are close enough to be a potentially good source of minnows though, which leads me to my next question...
If I were to go with a LMB-Only scenario, could I use minnows as my only food-supplement? Would that be enough to get the size of the bass up a bit? If so, how self-sustaining would the minnow population be?
I have no problem throwing in some minnows once a year or so. I just don't want to worry about dragging around bags of fish-chow and feeding pellets all the time. I was under the impression that minnows would be too small to be a decent meal for adult LMB. If the two would work out well-enough together, that doesn't sound bad to me.
On a side note, I was also considering introducing bull-frog tadpoles. Would these just be all gobbled up by the LMB once they are established? I'm already realizing that I may have problems with Herons wanting to eat up anything that makes it's way into the shallows...I find about a million footprints every time I go back there.
Comments and my experiences.
Despite a lot of lakes not a lot of GOOD fish diverse private hatcheries in SE MI.
HBG - will bite, on a regular basis, the hell out of your swimmers - girls/females will hate you for putting them in the pond. Men-boys tolerate HBG bites better than females. Large HBG can cause mouth scrapes that seep/ooze blood. I can supply phone numbers for testimony.
RES - will only bite and bump the swimmers in the beach area during RES spawning season in MI which is June.
SMB is a good and better alternative to LMB for your situation. I did not suggest them for you because you will have a lot more difficulty finding them. Stock them if you can find them. SMB will not prey as hard on minnows as LMB. YOU could combine SMB and yellow perch. Neither will bother swimmers.
You could stock walleyes and perch neither will bother swimmers. Walleyes may also be real hard for you to locate.
You will need good experienced advice for these two-three fish combinations in a low input swimming pond. Also a combination fishery will take more of your time to manage it properly so the fishery produces decent sized fish and or an occassional fish meal. Clear swimming pool water produces few fish per acre.
Adding minnows is an option. Problem with that is the more you add the bigger the bass get and then the more food they need to maintain their present health and body condition. So you are caught up in a circle. Rarely will minnows be able to sustain themselves in a pond situation that you are hoping for - mainly swimming. Minnows need weedy and structure filled settings to maintain their numbers. Golden shiners are an option for you but very difficult to find. Swimmers do not like weedy, structure filled, cloudy, green, tinted water ponds. Swimmers want clean, clear blue water; fish don't. At least numerous big fish don't.
Ever consider adding just some minnows and then plant 50-100 trout from Spring Valley each September? Trout will survive in your location until early June maybe late June in some years. Minnows will repopulate during the absence of trout. In fall minnows will be abudant to feed each annual stocking of trout. If you don't feel like stocking trout every year in most cases that will also be okay.
Bullfrogs will not become establised very well (maybe 1-3 per acre) unless there are some emergent plants along the shoreline on opposite end of swimming area to protect and shelter the adults. Trout option vs bass option will allow for a lot more frogs.
I have a quick thought about trout, or any fish that would die off.
Depending on who's swimming in your pond, seeing some dead fish around in the water may not be too appealing. Granted, it may only happen once during a season, if at all, but it could prevent some from ever wanting to swim if they've seen it.
Unless of course, you have friends like this:
I'd still try it though.
After reading a number of posts with links to other posts, with links to other posts, etc, etc...I think the SMB-YP-RES (along with FHM & G-Shiners as needed ?) combo sounds very appealing to me. I am willing to install some structure to accomodate these species as needed. I'll probably make another post regarding structure recommendations after I have done some more research first.
Based on the pond information I had listed and with the assumption that I am adding adequate structure for both fish & forage, I'd like recommendations on:
1. Number & size of fish to stock.
2. Timeline as to when I can stock various species. I can get FH's semi-locally. The others will take a little more driving (or money), but they should be available.
For whatever it's worth, I am eager to get fish in there as soon as I can. If it would speed things up to pay extra for larger fish, that is probably not a problem. Also, I am a teacher so I have a good deal of time that I can invest after the second week of June. The spring time is really busy for me though, so if a "spring stocking" can wait until early summer, that's preferable.
Here is a list of
Hatcheries in MI I dont have any experience with any on that side of the state but their are quite a few over there with a good variety of species. Imlay city lists 30+ species available, including SMB, YP, walleye, sturgeon and burbot.
Thanks Bender.
I did actually have that list, but what I am finding is that even if they list lots of species, many don't actually have them all.
Do you happen to have any good experiences with any of the hatcheries in your particular area? I am orignally from Hastings, so I do get out that way several times a year. I don't mind a couple of hours of driving in order to get good selection and service.
Derek,
Several years ago I got 200 8"-10" Walleye from Stoney Creek Trout Farms over in Grant, Mi. They delivered to a lake about 1/2 hour from me and I picked them up there. I did not find a single dead one out of the bunch. I know you didn't mention Wallys but they delivered on tine, very healthy fish that were all the promised size or larger, no runts.
Good luck.
Dan
I was itching to get out of the house today, so I drove out and picked up FH minnows this afternoon. I dropped in about 20-25 lbs of FH's.
Please let me know what people think about this stocking plan.
I've been reading and getting lots of ideas for structure. I plan to add a bunch of misc. structure for spawning and hiding the 3rd week of June (that's when I will have lots of free time).
I'm planning to install a well which should hopefully fill the remainder of the pond in a couple months.
I also bought a couple bags of fish food to help supplement the spring stocking as needed. (This is no longer a concern for me...I initially thought that it would cost a lot more).
Right now, I am looking at Jones Fish Hatcheries in Ohio, as they seem to stock all of the fish I am looking at. I have one other place to check on.
Here's what I am thinking:
June:
75 x 2-4" Yellow Perch (they also offer 4-6" if that would be better)
75 x 2-4" Redear Sunfish (they also offer 4-6" if that would be better)
Golden Shiner? Should I add these too? If so, how many?
Fall:
50 x 3-5" Smallmouth Bass (they also offer 5-7" & 8-10", though they are a bit more pricey).
Does this make sense or do I need to wait longer? If I add larger fish, can I speed things up? What are my options?
I think it basically looks good.
I would hold off on Golden Shiners until maybe next year depending on how your SMB growth goes. Golden Shiners can get too big too soon, ahead of your predators ability to eat them.
I would think you could put the Yellow Perch and RES earlier if it was possible
Is there a size/number combination that would allow me to safely add the YP/RES and the SMB all at the same time? I assume that the 3-5" SMB would be eating FH's for a while anyway.
The Yellow Perch will not spawn this year due to their size and the fact that their spawn season has passed. There is a chance that they may spawn next spring '08 depending on how their growth goes. If they get to 7-8", might they spawn in '08?
The Redear Sunfish don't play too much part in the forage base equation (someone correct me there if I'm wrong).
Now for the Smallies - Remember that they don't grow as fast as LMB, so it's a tough call to know what size fish a 3-5" smallmouth can eat. Adult fathead minnows can be 2-3" or even 4" long. I think it's good that you've put the fatheads in now.
The question is when do 3-5" SMB begin to eat fish as their primary diet?
Because you have 1.5 acres of water, I think the number of 50 SMB is small especially in those small size classes, but I consider that good for now meaning that you won't have put anything way out of balance.
You might want to consider (30) 3-5" SMB, (10) 5-7" SMB, and (10) 8-10" SMB. That way, you'll have a few different year classes. Be aware that the larger SMB might eat the smaller SMB.
I would also add another 20-25lbs. of fathead minnows at the same time.
I guess after writing all of that, you could put everything in at one time with the risk that larger stocker SMB will eat some of the other non-fathead stockers.
If you stuck with all 3 species being the smallest available sizes, I think it would be safe "size-wise", i.e. 3"-5" SMB should not be eating and 2"-3" YP & RES. Just FHM, like you say.
Whether this is wise from an out-year perspective, wrt when the different species start spawning, I'd like to hear from Bill Cody or one of the other YP/SMB experts.
Until then, review Brettski's
Help me adopt my fish family (he was looking for character references), paying attention to discussion leading to the ultimate RES/YP/SMB decisoon and paying particular attention to Bill Cody's posts.
I am bumping this up, as it is now fall stocking season, and I am ready to plop in some more fish, possibly for a full stocking.
Here's where I am at:
- 1.5 acre pond, 15 months old, clay bottom. Filled by rainwater/runoff only.
- 20lbs of FH in Spring, 20lbs of FH in June - They seem to be spawning very well.
- 100 x 4-6" YP were put in around April/May.
- 55 x 4-5" RES were put in during late June.
- All appropriate structure will be complete within a few weeks.
- I can feed fish food, and I am willing to restock FH a couple times per year if needed.
I am going with SMB/YP/RES. My choices for fish suppliers are very limited with those selections. The place I am getting them from may or may not have different sizes available. The only YP available are 5-7". SMB & RES will be instock within the next two weeks.
My questions is this...how many of each fish (total) should I shoot for on a full stocking? I was thinking 125-150 SMB depending on size(s) available. How many YP & RES? Should I have equal numbers? More of one than another?
Derek:
I assume there is no evidence of RES or YP spawning this year. I think that both species ARE quite likely to spawn for you next year.
After kicking things around with Bill Cody, my current plans for stocking my 1/2 acre SMB/YP/RES pond next year are for small forage species (FHM + ???) and 20 adult RES to go in early Spring 2008 (and to have the RES spawn!), more adult/juvenile/fingerling RES (all I can glean from my main pond; I might get another 30-50 RES) during the course of 2008, then for 300 YP and 60-75 SMB (both smaller fingerlings) to go in Fall 2008.
Trying to translate over to your 1.5 acre pond (and stepping up to adult YP), 125-150 SMB sounds good. What size SMB is available to you in the imminent future? Figuring you are getting more of what will be adult, spawning YP and RES next Spring, I would want another 100 YP and 100-150 RES.
If Cody posts and contradicts me in any way, do what he says.
P.S. If you stock small (2"-4") SMB in with the larger YP, I am VERY interested in how the bass survive in the face of the potential threat of YP predation. It would help settle a question Cody has posed to me on what size YP I want to stock next Fall.
So it sounds like you are recommending equal numbers of YP/RES?
Will they contribute enough to feed the SMB at the 2.5/3-to-1 ratio that you suggested?
I called about fish availability yesterday, and I was told they won't know sizes on SMB/RES until they arrive in the next couple weeks. The YP are 5-7" only. I seriously doubt the YP/RES have spawned, but I have no idea how they are doing at all. Once in a great while, I will see a couple YP poking around near the surface in the evening when it is cooler. I personally haven't seen any killed off, but who knows. I found one dead YP a week after they were put in, and I found one dead RES (~5") a couple weeks ago. Those are the only dead fish I have seen at all.
My water visibility is very poor at the moment. I can put my hand in the water, and I won't be able to see it much beyond 12-16". I put in a jug of aquashade last spring (I really regret it now), and since the pond is not quite full yet, it gets pretty cloudy from clay runoff when it rains. For that reason, I don't see too many fish. I don't even see adult FHs any more, but since I constantly see various sizes of FH fry, I assume they are doing well. I can't go anywhere without seeing hundreds of baby fatheads.
So it sounds like you are recommending equal numbers of YP/RES?
Will they contribute enough to feed the SMB at the 2.5/3-to-1 ratio that you suggested?
Yes, personally I would stock roughly equal number of YP and RES (if added at the same time via the same method).
The best answer to the second question I can give is "We don't know." Certainly
I don't know.
There is a moderate amount of experience with the SMB/YP combo in ponds. (HEY, CODY!!!!) And people know how to manage things to make that pairing work.
(HEY, CODY!!!!) Thoughtful contemplation by multiple minds wrt adding RES to the mix has yielded the belief that the RES shouldn't screw stuff up much, if any, since they don't act as a predator on juvenile or adult fish and do not have a propensity to overpopulate themselves.
Cody published articles on YP management in a now-defunct magazine titled (IIRC)
Farm Pond Harvest. His YP management techniques include propping up or chopping down YP spawning success by adding spawning substrate after ice-off in the Spring (like tree branches or the Reel Weeds {tm} Dr. Dave Willis wrote about in a recent issue of PB Mag) and, if a reduced YP spawn is desired, removing the spawning substrate AFTER the egg masses are layed.
I'm putting the triple-threat SMB/YP/RES combo (and I'm not even wearing my swim fins) in just under a half acre; I figure I can tweak the populations as needed while I figure out how to make it work. Plus I'm looking to those a little ahead of me (like you and Brettski) for a little advance info.
That really doesn't help much, does it?
(HEY, CODY!!!!)P.S. Anyone with SMB/YP experience, please comment.
Derek, are you considering adding GSH next year or therafter? That would provide another source of forage for the SMB (and wrt GSH babies, the YP).
I wonder how big the yellow perch (from April/May) are now. If they were 4-6" then, I would think you might have some 8" ones by now.
YP of that size would be eating the fatheads right? But 100 of them for a 1.5 acre pond is not much especially because they would not have spawned yet.
The size of the existing YP perch population is an important factor in deciding how many SMB to stock if you can only get fingerling SMB, or even juvenile SMB.
The condition of the fathead population will also be an important factor for the SMB next spring.
Derek,
1. Try to find out how big your spring stocked fish are.
2. I think you are a little high on SMB to stock. I would conservatively initially stock around 60/ac (total of 90-100).
3. Use wire minnow traps baited with a small amount of bread to attract minnows which attract YOY fish to check spawn of YP, RES, SMB in July 2008 and 2009. Make adjustments if catching noticably more of one species - RES, YP or SMB.
4. After 3-4 yrs, I would try to achieve an 8:1 to 12:1 ratio of YP-RES:SMB. Mix of RES to YP can be your choice but it will likely be dominated by YP.
5. Once YP and SMB reach 8"-10" fathead numbers will be in danger of extinction depending the weed community of the pond. If growth of YP or SMB plateau, reduce predators rather than trying to supplimentally add FHM to maintain good growth rates.
6. If your fish that you initially stock are not initially pellet trained, and if you do not continually feed them pellets, the combination that you are stocking will not adapt well to eating pellets and will only marginally accept pellets in the future.
7. Your biggest concern will be loss of FHM or "minnow" stock and growth of SMB and YP will plateau at a less than big or trophy size.
8. Dr. Dave Willis in South Dakota finds that SMB usualy overpopulate in ponds. I find this also to be true in certain ponds. This may be a definate concern for you. Based on your goals, don't be hesitant to harvest some SMB after 2011-12 to reduce predation pressure.
Lots of good stuff to consider.
Need to mark my calendar for duties in 2009-2012.
Retarded question perhaps, but...what's my best chance of finding out the current size of my existing fish considering how few there are and how low the visibility is? Just throw out a hook and wish for the best? Some kind of traps? As it stands now, I haven't sunk all my bottom stucture yet, so I don't even know where they might be hanging out. I've gotta get the boat out in the next week or so to get everything where I want it.
Theo...I figured GSH (or something) might be necessary after a bit. My main problem though is that there really aren't any fish farms near me, and the few sources that are available generally wouldn't have them in stock. There are "fish days" a couple times a year within a reasonable drive, but they don't have much for selection and they are a bit expensive. After calling around a bit, I've found that most of the fish farms within driving distance (2-2.5 hours) in Michigan have no selection at all...just BG, HBG, LMB. I was reasonably satisfied with the place I plan to buy from, but their season is limited for the harder-to-find stuff, and it's a 2.5 hour drive each way. I got my initial RES from Jones FF out of Cincinnati, but I ended up getting almost nothing that I ordered, and it took a couple months to get a messed-up delivery out to me (and another 3 weeks to fedex a box full of dead tadpoles that should have been on the truck in the first place). Needless to say, I don't plan on doing that again. Really, the only thing that I can get locally (ie 35+ min drive each-way) are fatheads. I am sure there has got to be someplace within driving range, but I haven't found it yet. Unfortunately, the state list (kindly linked by Bender) is not very accurate in terms of selection.
Isn't there a fish farm called Laggis or something like that in MI.? I know it's a big state, but if you had to order from Cinci previously...
I would fish with some fatheads on a bobber. I would get some crawfish attractant like YUM, and dowse the fathead, line, and bobber with it. This will help with the visibility thing.
EDIT: That's to try and catch some YP.
Bad News, Derek. You have to go fishing.
I think I have a line on a fish farm (or two???) in Northern Ohio. I will see if I can locate that info this weekend in case it might do you some good.
Bill Cody knows the fish suppliers in the North end of our state, too.
That would be great! If there happens to be anything in the toledo area, that's actually a fairly reasonable drive for me.
I think Imlay City (MI) is around 2.5 hours each way, and they are the only place I found with SMB. I was happy with the fish I got there, but like I said, size choices are limited.
I did look up Laggis, but it is further away.
I was hoping to pick up fish this weekend, but all they have so far are the YP. I guess I can go fishing and sink my structure instead.
Derek:
Basically no help, I'm afraid. I found one place that lists YP, no SMB, which is probably farther away than you want. And
Stoney Creek , who advertise in PBMag and who I have purchased equipment off of, also list YP, no SMB. They are somewhere in MI.
Still, Derek should call those places. I have not found many of the fish suppliers websites to be accurate assuming that is what you mean by saying if they "list" a fish.
If they don't have something, they should be able to point you somewhere.
Derek,
You are discovering what I have known for quite awhile. It is a whole lot easier to plan & develop a stocking plan than it is to find the fish especially if your plans are for stocking something other than the normal LMB, BG, HBG. I have driven 3.5hrs one way to get a few SMB and YP. The difficulty of locating and obtaining some species makes your fishery that much more unique and valuable.
Imlay City fish farm is probably your best choice. Ridgeview Fin Farm Ridgeville Corners OH (finfarm.com) is about 1 hr south of Adrian and MI line. Laggis is worth the drive and has very good quality fish and several species are pellet trained.
Golden shiners are hard to locate in MI and OH. Shiners are not as hardy and not as popular as FHM thus only very few hatcheries carry them. If you want g.shiners you may have to go back to Jones. Maybe meet the truck (cell phone tag) when they are on a northern OH or southern MI delivery. If you want a really hard fish to locate stock some bluntnose minnows which do very well with y.perch and SMB if the pond has some underwater weeds for cover. My initial stock came from local waters.
Best way to check on the status of your fish is as suggested - fish with some live bait, worms or minnows from your pond. It should only take catching 4-6 fish to get an idea of what growth has been like this summer.
Derek,
May I offer a suggestion... If you find a supplier that has the type of fish you want, ask if they have a scheduled delivery coming anywhere near you in the future. I did that a few years ago when I got 200 8"-10" Walleye from Stoney Creek. They had a delivery scheduled 2 weeks away to a subdivision lake not too far from me. I did not have to pay any delivery charge and met the truck about 15 minutes from my place.
Good luck in your quest.
Dan
Thanks for all the help folks!!!
Stoney Creek doesn't carry SMB, but I do have their catalog, and they have been mentioned as being reputable. I may check out Laggis & Ridgeview as well. Adrian is only about 35-40min from me on the backroads, so that might actually be closer than Imlay City.
Tried to do a bit of fishing yesterday, but didn't have any luck (it was unbearably hot). I may try after work one of the evenings this week since it is supposed to cool off, and I see a lot more activity in the evening anyway.
Worst case scenario...I just buy fish big enough to avoid potential predation and avoid the small ones until I find someone that has what I need.
Your initially stocked 100 perch are very little predation threat to any fingerlings stocked this fall or spring. Those 100 YP are too busy eating very easy to catch fathead minnows rather than eating a few sportfish fingerlings that you will stock.
I wanted you to catch a few of the fish that you stocked this spring so you (we) had some idea of how well they grew in the murky water. Murky water usually slows down the growth (depending) of sight feeding sportfish.
Ugh...made phonecalls and got bad answers. Nobody seems to understand my need for instant gratification!!! :p
Imlay city is at least another two weeks out, and I don't know what sizes yet.
Laggis is out of SMB, YP and they don't carry RES.
Ridgeview has YP & RES, but they won't sell to anyone outside Ohio until the spring because their fish haven't been tested and allegedly their is some kind of restriction about crossing state lines with fish in the great-lakes area right now. Interestingly enough, they are closer to me than either of the Michigan fisheries.
The interstate problem is VHS (IIRC "viral hemmoraghic septicemia"). Cecil has posted extensively about it; it is why he currently has to scrifice 48 small SMB (for destructive testing) before he can ship his big SMB to BassPro.
Like I said earlier, it can be quite difficult to locate the desired fish primarily SMB and or walleye. You are now getting a better idea of what I meant. As I also said earlier, Imlay City is probably going to be your best choice at least for this year. Note that any fish you buy this fall will not grow very much at all from October to April in MI. In spring of 2008 fish availability may change. Keep in mind than during the spring fish sales, SMB are really, really hard to locate. Most everyone sells out of their SMB in the fall.
Derek,
Crystal Springs Fish Farm (231) 719-0335 up by Muskegon has a few SMB available. I am picking some up on Tuesday.
CS is only about 10 miles or so from me. I hear that they have a very good rep.
I picked up 100 x 6-7" YP and 150 x 5-6" RES this past weekend. I also got 10lbs of golden shiners, which may not have been a good idea yet, but I had the urge to buy fish, and they are a pain to find around here normally. HOPEFULLY, my Smallmouth will be in stock this week, and I'll take another trip to finish things out for now. I've been calling all month, and they keep telling me to try back in a week or two. I was very pleased with the fish I did get though...I think most of them were on the high side of the listed size-ranges. There were a few RES that looked almost ready to go in my frying pan.
Ok, change of plans...
Due to certification issues, Imlay City is not getting any SMB in this year. Laggis & Crystal Springs are out and won't have more until next August or later (and they will presumably be fingerlings?). I can't buy from out of state this fall.
New question:
If they do ok in the winter, I am expecting that I will have YP & RES both spawning next year. If I am not able to introduce SMB (possibly small ones) until next fall, do I run any serious risk of overpopulating to the point that my SMB can't catch up when they get big enough? Or is this actually a good thing to "give them a head start" for essentially two years?
Should I add a few walleye or something next spring to act as a temporary non-reproducing predator (HSB aren't available in MI)?
I'd like to stick with my original species as much as possible, but I don't want to let it get out of control right away. I don't mind adding in a second predator if it's not going to take over & interfere like LMB.
Obviously, I could fish out some of the bigger YP & RES next summer/fall if that helps, but I don't know if a handful of fish dinners will make a difference either. I have nothing to guage this on.
Any thoughts?
Any chance you could catch a few SMB in your area to put in now. Eyes would be better than nothing. I know Dave Willis has indicated the possibility that YP will get to far ahead of SMB with the resulting problems. The bigger YP and RES will not be the problem it will be their swarm of babies. You will need a predator. A few (10-15) local SMB in the 10-12in range would IMO be worth the risk of introduced problems. Check to see that they are from a location with no occurrence of VHS etc.
DerekG "I picked up 100 x 6-7" YP and 150 x 5-6" RES this past weekend. I also got 10lbs of golden shiners." Is this all the fish you have stocked so far?
No. I also put in 100 4-6" YP in May and 50 4-5" RES in June. Plus fatheads...20lbs in April and 20 lbs in May...they've been spawning all along.
So, not counting anything that may have died off, I should have a total of around 200 x 6-7" perch and 200 x 5-6" RES to go with the baitfish. I have actually seen only 1 dead YP & 1 dead RES, but obviously there could have been more. I do also have a full time GB Heron hanging out, but considering how infrequently I've seen any fish near the surface, I doubt it's had a huge impact.
If I don't add anything for the YP to spawn on near shore, will that slow them down some? The pond is only 15 months old with no significant vegetation, and it probably won't be completely full until June (or later).
Ewest, I wish I had the time to go fishing for some SMB, but it's really not an option for me at the moment.
Thanks again to everyone for the continued advice!
Ewest already spoke for me. I know that I'm more conservative than others on this web site. However, I'm not a big fan of smallmouths being in control of two panfish species. However, you did say that you don't have much vegetation, which may indeed give the smallies a chance to control perch and redears. Now, walleyes are very unlikely to reproduce in your pond. So, adding a few now or next spring to allow some predation on your panfish should not be very risky. They can serve as your predators initially, and you can fish them out once your smallmouths arrive. You may want to notch up your smallmouth stockings numbers, but in our studies in lakes and reservoirs, the walleyes just do not eat any smallmouths. I was very surprised by that, and of course, it may not apply in ponds where interactions among fish species is forced by the small size of the habitat.
DerekG’s summary paraphrased - ”Stocking into an unfilled 1.5 ac pond (15’ deep) at approx 7-10 deep currently with 4-5 ft to fill, I should have a total of around 200 x 6-7" perch and 200 x 5-6" RES to go with the baitfish of 40 lbs FHM breeders (spring) and 10 lbs golden shiners (fall).” Note 1/2 the YP & RES were stocked in spring and ½ in fall. Intended predators (SMB) will likely not be stocked until fall of 2008 and probably as fingerlings. Walleye (WE) might be introduced as a bonus fish.
DerekG asks “If I don't add anything for the YP to spawn on near shore, will that slow them down some?”
My answer is yes, however it all depends. It depends on several important things.
1. Of the 200 adult perch that are present, approx ½ are females - possible 100 egg strands in spring of 2008. No emergent or submerged weeds are present for spawning substrate, thus egg strands will settle and lie on a relatively new exposed mud bottom. Water has been murky cloudy all summer and is currently cloudy. Derek had a hard time catching any fish due to turbid water. This is no doubt due to silt clay being suspended from runoff and wave action on exposed bare mud shorelines. If current turbid conditions prevail in spring of 2008, YP egg strands will have a low hatching success due to suspended silt and clay particles settling on and suffocating embryos in egg strands.
My experience with YP is if one collects all egg strands that are deposited on numerous tree branches that have been deposited along the shoreline in shallow water, then the resulting YP hatch is negatively impacted. Amount of impact is fairly proportional to how many strands are laid in deep water and then hatch. Deep water egg strands in DerekG’s pond should have a very poor hatching success if water in again highly turbid in April of 2008. Also high degree of turbidity has a big negative affect on the phyto and zooplankton which fish fry feed on. Thus food will be in short supply due to high turbidity for the YP fry for those that do hatch.
So in mid March, set out 15 to 30 twiggy tree branches (4’-6’ long) at various places along the shoreline. I have found that YP will prefer to lay eggs along certain direction oriented shorelines. YP in my pond 1st prefer the east and 2 secondarily the west shoreline avoiding the northern, northwest, northeast shoreline. I get a few egg strands on the southern shore. However in other ponds I have seen YP prefer the northern shoreline. Check branches every few days and remove all egg strands. I am confident that with your current pond conditions, this will significantly affect the number of YP fry your pond produces in 2008. Turbidity and lack of shallow water remnant vegetation (natural spawning substrates) by themselves will have a big negative impact on you YP hatch.
2. I suspect that the RES will also have a hard time producing successful spawns in summer of 2008 due to all bottom areas are bare mud and coinciding high turbidity which has a negative affect on egg development and food for newly hatched fry.
3. There has been a previous discussion on this forum about adult yellow perch (YP) eating young bluegill (BG). Most of the information about this predatory behavior was based on a published research. I could not locate that topic using search. YP are a panfish as Dr. Willis mentions, but I consider them more of a predator than some of the other common panfish such as BG, RES, and other sunfishes. I consider YP similar to crappie when it comes to eating fish. Some articles indicate the YP prey on YOY BG especially during winter (Fullhart, Parsons, Willis, Reed 2002). Other articles report that YP were responsible for reducing the young of year YP by up to 25% in October and 96% mortality by year one due to cannibalism (Tarby 1974, Post & Evans 1989).
In DerekG’s pond YP cannibalism could have a significient impact on the 2008 YP hatch IF conditions are right. However I suspect that an abundance of FH minnows will result in a lot of FHM consumption instead of perch feeding in YOY perch. FHM are a very easy food item for YP. YP will not feed heavily on YOY perch in DerekG’s pond until the FHM are in short supply.
In summary, I think if DerekG can remove a large number of egg strands in 2008 and if the pond remains turbid, then survival of YOY Yperch in 2008 will be low. To verify the success of the YP – RES hatch, Derek should monitor the relative numbers of young fish by using wire minnow traps and maybe a few tows of a beach seine. If YP or RES numbers seem to be in excess YOY can be removed when trapped rather than releasing those fish back into the pond. If SMB are stocked as fingerlings, I would also monitor the YP and RES denisites each summer an fall until the SMB are able to spawn and their young are 6”-8” long. At that time the SMB and larger YP should be able to start eating enough young YP & RES to make a measurable impact on the numbers of young “panfish”. At this time I suspect the FH minnows will be rare or extinct and golden shiners and YOY RES & YP will be the backbone of the forage fish base. As with any fishery spawning success of each species present has a lot to do with the dynamics and interactions of the fish community.
As long as your pond remains turbid due to suspended clay/silt, the amount or degree of overall predation, spawning success, normal fish growth, and recruitment of young fish will all likely be reduced compared to relatively clear water conditions.
Great advice! Very specific and extremely helpful.
It hadn't even occured to me to give them a place to lay eggs, then yank them out before they hatch. Monitoring those habits will also help me identify their favorite sides of the pond for laying out eggs, and I can use that info for adjusting the spawn rate in future years.
I guess the only thing that I have that might contradict this plan is that the water has actually been clearing up quite a bit lately...plus in addition, I layed down straw along the slopes of about half my shoreline and also in the more heavily-eroded areas to be a little bit proactive in minimizing erosion in the spring. I was going to add a well this summer to keep the water topped off, but due to the possible depth and the need for a bigger electrical wire (man, copper is expensive these days!), I had to put that project off for a bit. If all goes well financially, I plan to add my well as soon as the area is dry enough to drive on next spring. That will hopefully top off the pond faster so I don't get so much silt runoff from the inner slopes, and I will also be able to water the spotty grass in the area around the pond, helping filter out some of the silt coming in from around the pond as well. I guess I'll just have to spend more time swimming this summer to muddy up the water more.
It will be hard to do enough swimming to keep 1.5 ac continually turbid. Typically right after ice out is when your water will be the clearest. As March winds, waves and rain runoff mix the pond, turbidity will increase and in your case your pond could quickly get fairly turbid. In fact you may have some trouble seeing the egg strands in 2-3 ft of water.
The critical time for turbidity or lack of it is when perch are laying eggs and those eggs are hatching. Y perch begin laying eggs when water gets close to 48F and spawning usually continues for about 3 weeks after that first egg strand is observed. Water temps around 50F are a little cold for comfortable swimming.
Egg strands will typically hatch in about 7-12 days after they are laid. Water temperature has a lot to do with rate of egg hatching. If the eggs don't hatch then there is little need to reduce phytoplankton & zooplankton communities as a way to limit food for hatchlings.
Removal of egg strands has been a very good way for me to keep numbers of young perch to a minimum in my pond. Each spring I typicaly remove about 50-75 egg strands per year from my pond. Since you are in SE MI, the common time for YP spawning in smaller ponds in our area is near April 1 to around Apr 20th. Occassionally very warm days in late March can result in the first egg strands to occur in the last few days of March. A cold April will result in spawning extending to the end of April when water tmeps can be 60F. Monitor the surface water temperatures and this will be a good indicator for when to look for eggs on brush.
BE sure to get the brush into the pond during early March 1-14. Lay brush with twigs sticking from water line to about 18"-24" deep. Often eggs are deposited very close to the water line in warmest water that has been warmed by the afternoon sun. Y perch will be more likely to use the brush for spawn sites when the perch have had time to get accustomed to the new brush additions. YP are somewhat hesitant to use new brush added during the active spawning period. In your new pond, YP should heavily utilize the tree branches for spawning because your pond currently has essentially no other spawning sites for them to use.
I suggest that you save my instructions and review them in late February or early March of 2008.
Keep us informed as to how the perch spawning and egg gathering is going for you next spring. I am interested in how accurate my predictions are for your situation. Since I am a little directly south (60mi) of you, keep in touch with me and I will let you know when I see the first YP egg strands in my pond. I have a few dependable early spawners.
aint that bill cody something?....great posts...great thread...
just my little thought for you derek.....perhaps aeration would help yer quest? sorry if i missed that you are already aerating.
my pond was ultra clear w/ alot of weeds until i started aerating (regularly) w/ bottom diffuser. i dont go 24/7, just through the night and until the sun hits the water in the morning. it has kept the pond turbid (w/ phyto bloom...not suspended particles) which has reduced the sunlight penetration and the excessive weed problems. it has also brought oxygen around and into the entire water column so fish are at all levels.
Yep, I've been aerating all this year. I guess it's almost time to shut down for the winter. A couple days ago, I was down to about 47 degrees in the water, though we've had a couple warm days lately.
The aeration may be adding to the turbidity in your new pond. If it clears over winter and stays clear during the YP spawn then even greater emphasis should be added to what Bill posted about limiting YP reproduction.
DerekG - Bottom aeration will definately help keep any suspended solids suspended as long as the aerator is running. If the solids are organic then they will decompose faster in suspension compared to lying on the bottom. If the solids are inorganic, clay and or silt then they will tend to stay suspended depending on their size, pond size, and strength of the currents produced by the aerator. In the spring you could use the aerator to your advantage to produce turbid or clear water basd on your desires. I typically do not start aerating is spring until the YP eggs have hatched. However you could run the aerator along with ocassionally manually stirring up the sediments to produce mud clouds. Then running the aerator would help keep the finest particles suspended to deter hatching of perch eggs, especially those lying directly on the pond bottom.
Postscript to earlier posts on this topic. My experiences with YP in NW Ohio are somewhat different than those described by Dr. Willis. Most all the ponds that I help manage or stock in my area use a strain of YP that have been domesticated since 1981 - 26 yrs. This compares to the YP that Dr. Willis deals with that assume are primarily wild fish.
There are numerous ponds in my area that are primarily just yellow perch. Some have a few non-reproducing predators whereas some of these small (0.2-3/4 acre) ponds have just yellow perch and no other predators except perch. None of the local YP ponds that I know of have overpopulations of YP IF there are good numbers of adult (8"-12") perch present. I think two factors are important in these ponds. One is the YP are fed pellets and the other is no over-harvest of adult perch occurs. Pellets keep good numbers of YP growing well, and maintaining numerous larger perch helps to increase the mortality rate of the YOY perch thus reducing the chance of overpopulation. Occassionally manual thinning of sub-adult perch is beneficial to reduce strong year classes.
Another feature that I have discovered with YP dominated ponds is feeding the YP causes those that eat pellets to grow faster than their siblings. Thus the non-pelleting perch stay small and slender bodied for a longer period of time compared to the always plump faster growers. Smaller skinny perch are then more vulnerable to predation from adult perch. This tends to keep the perch population dominated by faster growing well fed individuals.
The point of this postscript is to tell you not to worry too much about YP overpopulation in your specific situation if you are not able to stock SMB until fall of 2008. I often recommend not to add predators to YP ponds in my area until the YP have spawned at least once. My experience is that a pond can stay balanced with just YP present IF the YP are properly managed.
Hey Derek,
I don't have a pond yet, but have started doing some research and am finding this site great. A couple places you may want to try in Michigan that I have found that you haven't already mentioned.
Jacks Fish Farm, Jack@jacksfishfarm.com, and they can email you a price list. They have hyb bluegill, channel cats, largemouth bass, rainbow trout, perch, walleye, and black crappie.
Just wondering if you had thought about Crappie and if the perch you have are jumbo perch?
And in your, or anyones experience, are hyb bluegill really that aggressive with nipping swimmers? When we dig our pond, I would like to put Hyb Bluegills in there but I would also like my wife to swim in the pond and if she is getting nipped by fish all the time I can kiss that idea goodbye.
Look forward to reading your progress, I am not that far from you, just a bit north of Ann Arbor.
Derek,
Who did your pond for you? I am supposed to be getting a quote after the first of the year, but it can't hurt to get more than one. I would love to know who did it and if you were happy with them, and the cost? Post or pm me if you could. Thanks.