Anyone know off some off the wall fish I can stock in a deep south texas pond. Wanting something other that the reg bluegill and bass combo? Any ideas??

How big is the pond? How about a couple tiger muskie per acre?

pond little over an acer but im in south texas get to hot for muskie right.

tilapia?

yeah planing on tilapia was wanting a little more out there

Paddlefish, freshwater drum, redfish (can survive in fresh water???), pickeral,....

Gar, alligator gar, sturgeon (not really???),...

Don't forget the hybrid striped bass.

gar, grinnell, carp & buffalo and you'll be set!

I hear that the hybrid striped bass dont do well down here south in small ponds. Anyone know anything about white bass in a pond? And red drum wont even live in the tanks at cabelas so they prob wont live in mine, but mine is kinda salty maybe they would do great.

I for sure dont want gar but whats a grinnell?

A bowfin. http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/amiidae.html

Redfish can survive in freshwater. They just have to be 15"+ when you stock them. There is a lake by San Antonio that the TPWD stocked them into. Don't know if they are still doing it.

Excuse my ignorance all but isn't a "Bowfin" the same thing as a Choupique (Shoe-Pike) or "Mudfish" or "Cyprus Bass" or "Cypress Trout" as we call them in central Louisiana? If so, I have experiences with this fish as giving an excellent fight and will hit a plastic worm like there is no tomorrow.

Would a peacock bass live? or even be legal?

I've stocked northern pike in TN before and had them do very well, and it gets very hot here in the summer, usually with at least a couple days at 100 or better. I just read an article online that said the state of Arizona tried stocking tiger muskie, and they believe the stocking failed primarily due to pike eating the muskie fingerlings rather than the temperature.

I find this ideal interesting and might consider it my self.. An all exotic fish pond....Does any one know of a place that sells these sugested species??

See im getting some people thinking out of the box i like it. To the red fiish in SA yes they are still doing it i live close to these two lake my whole life and the red fishing is good here but there power plant lakes so they say warm. It could be worth a try but i wouldnt know where to get them. But the peacocks would be bad to the bone not sure if they would live down here or not.

Rio Grande Perch. You might have to re-stock annually, but they look really cool and I know some survive in area rivers.

Well, if you are talking apex predators, I think there is a species of shark that will live in very low concentrations of salt water, and maybe in fresh water.

Zambezi sharks and bronze whalers. That would make one heck of a pond!

I am just curious. Why do they have to be over 15 inches?

See I love these ideas! really good on the rio grand those are cool loooking fish

Definitely good on the Rio Grande - screw the expense and hassle of a border fence!

anyone know what rio grands feed on ????

Ken Henneke stocks Rio Grande Perch according to his website.

There's very little information available on them as a pond species. They're a cichlid, but wikipedia indicates that the RGP are a little bit more cold-tolerant than Mozambique Tilapia, only spawn once a year, and mature at 6" or so. Maybe it could overwinter in a central Texas pond? Not sure how they'd do with serious predation.

It'd be interesting to try them out and see what happens. If you can't find a hatchery with them you could check out the Guadalupe River and try to catch some.

Reds have to be 15" because the smaller ones cannot tolerate the low salinities. However I think the point is mute as even larger fish wouldn't survive in a smaller pond. It would just get too cold. The bigger lakes that are cooling reservoirs stay hotter because of that and also stay a more steady temp, something a smaller pond won't do.

The bull shark is the species that can tolerate freshwater the best. They have been found as far north as Illinois in the Mississippi.

Peacock bass would not survive in your part of Texas either. If you can't overwinter Mozambique Tilapia, you can't overwinter Peacocks.

That is the problem with the "exotic" pond fish... Where do you get them from? Unless you have a wild source, you are SOL. I'd love to get my hands on some freshwater drum, but they are not found in the wild around here.

Esox species may do well in the southern lake or reservoir, but I am not so sure about them doing well in a smaller pond. Perhaps chain pickerel as they have a far south native range, but tigers or NP, I would be doubtful about.

In smaller ponds, HSB do fine until they hit 4 or so pounds. George can share his experiences. Once they get over that size, they require cooler higher DO waters and die. An old member Meadowlark has lots of HSB experience in Texas waters and experienced numerous die offs in the summer when the fish got larger.

Meadowlark also stocked Pacu and raved about them. I think he had to put them in a hot tub for the winter though.

Yeah, that's dedication...

Oscar, Jack Dempsey, Texas Cichlid...

Just noticed Rio Grande Perch was already mentioned... which is just another name for Texas Cichlid.

I can spend the rest of my life fishing for 4-5 lb HSB, the greatest small “put and take” pond fish introduced into small Texas ponds.

Who has a small LMB pond that you can consistently catch 3-5 lb fighting fish on a daily basis that are also excellent table fare?
A 3 lb HSB will out fight a 5 lb LMB and a 5 pounder will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck.
Of course I am a dyed in the wool fly fisherman.

For several years I have successfully raised HSB in a small ¼ pond with no aeration for transfer to 2-acre pond with aeration.

The “secret” for success for HSB in a “put and take” species pond is to create a annual “stocking ladder”, restocking desired numbers of 8+ inch HSB on late winter/early spring schedule.

CJ I have heard this "Once they get over that size, they require cooler higher DO waters and die." many times but the studies I have seen do not reflect that. The ones I have read indicate that HSB can do about as well as BG and LMB in ponds ( they all reached thermal max and/or DO critical level about the same time). One problem is the fight untill they die aspect of HSB which is more prone to occur in hot water. There is a tendancy in small ponds that HSB don't reach their max size potential but still may get to 8 lbs.

Can you direct me to any studies/info on the "Once they get over that size, they require cooler higher DO waters and die." ?

This is not a test but rather a search on my part to check the data to see for sure about the answer.

What type of forage grows HSB in a small pond?

AquaMax is one type of forage that'll work.

Haha, I guess that's true. And to create a decent put-and-take HSB fishery in a small pond, that'd probably be necessary. Do HSB take those big Aquamax Largemouth pellets? How do HSB do with golden shiners?

Unless there's a big difference between a pond in TX and a pond in TN (which is certainly possible), pike definitely can survive and thrive in a TN pond because I've done it. I'll readily grant that they might fare differently in TX; but I would think if the pond had a decent amount of deeper water and didn't suffer too excessively from drought, they would be okay.

Don't rest until you have a Rio Grande Perch / Northern Pike / Magnolia Crappie / Rainbow Trout / Redfish / Bull Shark based ecosystem stable in your pond!

p.s. does anyone know a hatchery that'll ship feed-trained Bowfin?

WahooBob

Not sure how south in texas you are but peacock bass do well here in Florida from about west palm beach down to the country of Miami. They are IMHO 5x the fight of a regular LMB. But remember they are an exotic/tropical and even though I am in Florida (G'ville) our winters get too cold (relatively, no comments from you midwesterners)

Once my ducks get in a row (which at this point is like herding cats) I am going to attempt a SMB/YP/HSB pond. Which no one around here has. I am confident It will work based on the opinions of the experts and what I have seen from fellow pondmeisters.

I can attest to this as well, caught a number of them in Fort Lauderdale in a smallish lake and they really threw a fun tantrum each time. And were delicious too.

I don't know if the 10 degree (approx.) difference in temp would make a difference between locales. I've heard peacock fingerlings surviving in as low temp water as 56.

Peacocks could be tried (if they're legal to stock) but I think it gets too cold in the winter. It'll be below 55F average air temp for about 70 days.

How quickly do Peacock Bass grow? Do they take feed? If memory serves, it'd be warm enough probably early March - late November for them to survive. Maybe you could stock advanced fingerlings in late March along with some Tilapia, feed intensively, then fish them all out by November? Or have some alternating system where you stock adult Rainbow Trout just as the Peacocks are about to die and Peacock as the Rainbows are about to die? That'd actually be pretty cool, as long as you had a feeder and didn't mind stocking constantly.

I'll look into a scientific study on that. Part of my statement is anecdotal as there are forum members with HSB who hit as you said the 5-8 pound mark and don't get any bigger. While in larger reservoirs where their is a cool water, higher DO refuge they reach the high teens and even low 20's.

HSB's parent's the white and striped bass both have juvenile stages that are far more tolerant of lower DO and higher temps than larger adults of the same species. Perhaps hybrid vigor allows the HSB to be a bit more tolerant of lower DO and higher temps even at larger sizes but only to a certain extent. A 5-8 pound HSB as George said will pull your arm off and fight like a champ, it is far from the maximum size that can be reached... Something is killing the fish before they hit their peak size and I don't think it is just catching them during the summer and over stressing them.

Ok i did some research peacocks can live as far north as 26degN Im at 28 deg north so I could maybe get lucky that would be super cool.

Definitely let us know when you make your decision and keep us updated. Would love to see how they work out for you.

Eric, here is the best study I could find to prove my point... http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-05212003-112151/unrestricted/FinalThesisETD.pdf Check out pages 6-11 but the whole study is quite interesting. Anyone who is an HSB lover and or striped bass lover, there is a lot of interesting info in the study!

Just like with large striped bass, say those fish in excess of 15 pounds or so, large HSB say those fish in excess of 8 pounds require cool well oxygenated water. It appears HSB are a hair bit more tolerant of warmer lower DO waters than are full blooded stripers, but not by all that much...

Guys like Nate who are seeing rainbow trout hold over in some of the ponds and small lakes they manage could most likely see HSB grow to rather large sizes in those same lakes as they obviously have thermal and DO refuges for large HSB if they can also support trout. As long as those ponds and lakes have abundant food for the HSB to feed on while taking refuge, I suspect they could grow quite large!

Bruce, you've grown some rather large HSB over the years, any data on temps and DO in your ponds?

All you ever want to know or need to know about Striped Bass and Hybrids can be found in the American Fisheries Society publication "Culture and Propogation of Striped Bass and its Hybrids".
Pricy manual but necessary for serious discussions.

Points being raised about HSB mortality, DO and temperature tolerance has been discussed at great length previously by Condello, Overton, West and others.

I would recommend archival search for both academic and anecdotal informatioin regarding HSB.

George did you read the study in the link? I realize I am just a peon in the fish world in your eyes, but that study is pretty darn interesting and not found anywhere else...

I scanned it briefly - I rely on 20+ years Lake Texoma Striped Bass experience and more than 6 years pond HSB experience, as well as previous research of material from American Fisheries Society manual.
Have your researhed this lengthy publication?
If not, I highly recommend it.
I await Ewest's response.

Am I missing something George? Are you saying something in what you saw in my linked study does not match up with your 20+ years Lake Texoma Striped Bass experience and more than 6 years pond HSB experience as well as previous research of material from American Fisheries Society manual?

Having studied wildlife and fisheries science while at Penn State, I am rather familiar with the American Fisheries Society and their publications.

My apologies CJ.
It was not my intent to be condescending.
I appreciate your contributions to the forum – I am just bored with this subject that has been previously debated.

My apologies as well for beating a dead horse. I haven't been around all that long on here to completely know what has and hasn't been covered. With Eric asking me for a scientific study I figured all to be learned about the HSB hadn't been. In doing an archive search on the forum, I couldn't find the answers I was looking for which is why I am still asking and trying to learn...

CJ thanks for the info. I have read part and will reply when I get a second. George has been through this exercise and knows he can grow them well in his very hot water. The Symp. he cites has a ton of good info. However there is always new info to find and that was what I ask for and you provided. Thanks and the study has lots of info on first glance. I have more info and from ponds to add. I need to look more closely but on first glance it does not support (in fact contradicts) the notion that HSB need cooler water and more DO than ponds provide. More later.

I've found an article (in English) on feed training Peacock Bass. It looks like they're possible to feed train, but it's not clear if it's economically feasible.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-71082000000400015&script=sci_arttext

Are there even hatcheries in the US that sell Peacock Bass? Google indicates that people buy them for aquariums at about $20 for a 2" fish, they grow 1" or more per month, and central Texas would have about a 7 month safe growing season for them.

My dad owns a small piece of property near New Braunfels with a .12 acre, about 7' deep pond on it. The thing dried out completely over the terrible summer drought. It's starting to re-fill now that winter rains are hitting. I'm tempted to put a couple pounds of FHM in it when I'm back over winter, then buy a Peacock Bass from an aquarium supplier, put him in, and see if he's still there and grown up at the end of the summer.

If this is legal and my schedule works out, look forward to pictures.

Might not work in that small of a pond but who knows would be cool to try.

It's a tiny pond, but it did successfully grow a 10" LMB my uncle threw in a few years ago to control the unchecked GSF to about 18".

Only reason I say maybe not in the little pond is that it may get colder then a larger pond.

That's a good point. I'll just have to hope for warm weather. If I do this I'll probably try (or have someone else try) to catch the PB around early October, it'll still be plenty warm then. If the PB makes it to 8" between April and October, I'll consider the experiment a smashing success.

I just figured out I am at 29 * N too. May need to take a trip to the in laws in w palm to catch some peacock.

Man, I'd love to put one or two in an aquarium up here.

Evaluation of Two Sizes of Hybrid Striped Bass for Introduction into Small Ponds

J. Wesley Neal , James A. Rice , Richard L. Noble
In conclusion, until the catastrophic fish kill events, hybrid bass survived well in these typical small southeastern ponds with established centrarchid communities. Hybrid bass growth was slower in these unmanaged ponds than in large reservoirs or intensive culture, and the decline in condition after stocking indicated that the centrarchid prey base was not ideal for hybrid bass. This suggests that use of hybrid bass in this manner for creation of private fisheries will be limited to low-density stocking for diversification purposes only. However, better results might be obtained in ponds with a different trophic structure that includes soft-rayed fishes, such as clupeids. Supplemental feeding would increase growth rates and condition as well, and could be a viable option in smaller systems and in commercial fee fishing operations.



The fish kills presented an unexpected opportunity to estimate survival for the period from stocking to the time of the fish kill in each pond. These kills were the result of unusual circumstances that also caused the death of largemouth bass and bluegills, typically successful pond species. Both kills resulted from extreme anoxic conditions during early morning rainstorms; each pond destratified allowing deeper water with high oxygen demand to mix with the low oxygen surface water. These ponds did not have a history of fish kills, so we considered these events to be unusual.

The underlying data from this study included extensive temp and DO data indicating that the LMB , BG and HSB had about the same tolerance for these conditions.

I am looking forward to hearing what your impression of the study is. I have fished both Claytor and Smith Mountain, the reservoirs mentioned in the study. They are great fisheries, especially Smith Mountain.


I have never doubted the fact that one can grow HSB under 8 pounds quite well in a small southern pond. What I am curious about is, at want size do HSB hit that wall where they have to have the cooler higher DO waters to do well? I believe there is a distinct different in the requirements of a 5 pound HSB and a 15 pound HSB.



This is why this forum is so great, people openly sharing their thoughts and opinions. We will never learn everything there is to know about HSB or pond management. The open sharing of ideas among many pondmeisters with years of first hand experience and/or education make this one special place. As Bill Cody says, Pond Boss IS America's Journal on Pond Management...

IMO there are too many variables to say where HSB “hit the wall”.
All, or most of all of our HSB, including some 4-5 lb classes “hit the wall” with last summer fish kill, along with most of our large LMB, CNBG, CC and GC.
Obviously a DO problem.

Water quality is an important criterion for HSB of course, as well as fishing pressure. HSB do not do well in acidic Texas Piney Wood waters, preferring alkaline hard waters.

HSB have become very popular sport fish in Texas public waters but I consistently catch bigger fish from our ponds than reported HSB catches from public waters, 18-inch min length requirement for keepers.

The largest HSB I have ever seen was Mrs. G's 13.5 pounder, approaching Lake Texoma’s record ~14 pounder.
Texas HSB state record is 19lbs from Lake Ray Hubbard.

Academic arguments are of no interest to me.
As far as I am concerned I am out of this debate.
I have successfully met my stated goals and objectives of developing a small Texas pond fishery that provides consistent excellent sport fly-fishing for HSB and CNBG.

I really appreciate all the info that this site offers, I was very interested in HSB but the info here convinced me that the PH & temp. of my water would not go well with HSB.
Even though many of us like to push the envelope when raising different species it's good to know what your odds of success might be.

Now George, how can we even approach having a debate about HSB without THE MASTER.

IMHO there is a huge difference between studying something and doing something. George you decided on a stocking strategy and you put it into place. We've all seen the photos of your fish. They speak volumes themselves. I'd love to hook one of your CNBG or HSB. Beats any fish in my pond hands down and I suspect that is true for 82.7% of the other forum members here.

Personally, if my fish peaked at 8 pounds I'd be ecstatic. I'd dress up in a fish costume and perform a ritualistic dance on the eve of the Summer Equinox.

I think it's going to come down to this WahooBob, what is your tolerance for employing a stocking strategy, monitoring it for 5 years or so and if you find the results are not to your liking then killing off all the fish and starting over. It seems to me as though that is the worst case scenario. Best case scenario is that you break new ground with a pond stocked in a manner that isn't supposed to be possible. Sound like a long shot? Probably. It is possible? You bet, just ask Aaron.

Here is some from the study which IMO indicates ponds will work for HSB. Still looking as it is a long study at 236 pgs.



Hybrid striped bass

Habitat needs and preferences for HSB are not as well defined as for STB, but HSB are

believed to be better able to tolerate warm summertime conditions in warm, eutrophic reservoirs

(Coutant 1985; Moss 1985; Muncy et al. 1990). While no HSI exists for HSB, the combination

of temperature and dissolved oxygen is often reported as the two most limiting factors (DeMauro

1990).

The exact temperature preferences for HSB are unknown, but may be intermediate to the

parental STB (20-24°C) and white bass (28-30°C) (Barans and Tubb 1973; Gammon 1973).

Based on findings from telemetry studies, HSB seem to prefer 21-27°C water with dissolved

oxygen >4.5 mg/L (Douglas and Jahn 1987; Muncy et al. 1990). Like STB, they are intolerant to

low (<2 mg/L) levels of DO. For example, Piner (1993) found HSB in Fairfield Reservoir, TX

to inhabit water up to 32°C in well-oxygenated water (>5mg/L) even though cooler water with

DO of 2-4 mg/L was available.

I agree Eric, HSB are far more suitable to small pond or even small lake management than full blooded striped bass. The biggest reason they were ever conceived to begin with IMO. I appreciate you reading the research and sharing your thoughts.

I will work on it. There is a lot there to learn about. It is interesting to note the movements of and use by the fish within each of the systems in BOTH studies covering 5 different BOW - feeding , DOs , temps etc. have strong similarities.

Yes, it is a very interesting study... I cannot imagine the many hours and back breaking work required to do it! I am glad there are people out there and private money(power companies) willing to put the time and effort into learning.

How about freshwater Dolphin as top predator.
http://baiji.org/in-depth/freshwater-dolphins.html

Oh WOW!!! wonder if a bull shark could live in a pond??