I am wanting to try and stock the small mouth bass in my 1/4 acre pond. Or a bass of some sort
I have HBG 100
RES 50
CC 20
and a half dozen 7" goldfish
And thousands of FHM
I am not sure when to stock them, either now or in the fall?
And how many?
It would be different for the area as long as they could survive in my pond.
I think the blue pinchered crawdads are native for this area, is there anything special that I need to do to get them established in my pond? And how many should I throw in? Cant get too many can you?
SMB have trouble in ponds in our area. Most tend to not do well.
Trailsguy, try reading this:
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/stocking_smallmouth_bass.html Since you do not have BG in the mix you might be OK with stocking SMB.
If you're stocking small fingerling SMB, I think you can put them in now. Between the FHM population and a RES spawn, they should be eating OK.
I'm thinking of a stocking number about 30 - just a WAG to spur numbers discussion.
Availability of SMB in your area may require fall stocking. You might want to call around and see if you can even locate any fingerling SMB this spring.
Bill you are correct, I called down to the fish farm and he said it is only a fall stock, Darn! I have been really fighting the urge to throw more fish in. I wanted something different than other ponds around so I thought I would try the smb and still can I guess but I want something now
Sorry, I had a little fit! Fish guys wants me to throw in some lmb 4-6 inches long but I am thinking that I would need more forage even though I have a bunch of fhm I am thinking that once my res and hbg get a little longer in the tooth that they may work over the fhm. Seems like I have alot of pond for only a few fish. I know we had a good discussion on this last fall I read back through it trying to decide what to stock. My fish guy thinks I should stock regular bg and lmb to keep each in check but I am not sure since I have the Hbg in there already. OH WOES IS ME!
SMB might work okay with HBG and RES as panfish. SMB would do better in that situation than LMB since there will not be lots of small forage fish available. Is there any way that you can catch a few 6"-10" SMB from a local pond or maybe stream. Six to 8 juvenile to small adult SMB in a 0.25 ac pond would be a good start for this spring. If you do it early enough you might get a spawn for 2007. Email me for a treatment bath dip instructions for "wild" fish to reduce the chance of introducing external parasites to your pond. For other readers the treatment bath instructions will be described in my article of the May June 2007 PBoss magazine.
trialsguy, just a couple of thoughts about a small pond like yours. First, make sure your water quality stays good by adding aerators. Next, consider feeding pellets to your fish. That way you don't have to worry about whether or not you are producing enough forage. Pelleted food will be your basic nutrietion with natural forage as a nice add on.
Remember that the very easiest pond to manage is one that doesn't have any successful reproduction. That way to can put in what ever you wish and not have to worry about it taking over.
Norm thanks for the tips, I am trying to get my pellet training in order, I have one aerator do you think I need more than that?
Bill I wouldnt know where to go to try and find a small mouth around here.
As far as small fish for forage could I add a few BG in there to keep more forage base or would I sooner or later get over ran? I dont think I will have too much trouble keeping tabs on everything since it is a small pond.
The small mouth interest me because its not very common around here as far as I know.
Trails, I have a pond a bit smaller than 1/4 acre and have had great success with the SMB. I started with FHM then added YP a year later and then a year later the SMB. My SMB have been doing great and growing like gang busters. I have done some supplimental FHM stocking to ensure their numbers are up enough for the SMB. I also added crayfish to the pond prior to the SMB ( about 1 yr prior ) They did a bit of damage on the walls of the pond but seem to either be gone now or under control.
As for supplimental feeding, my SMB were not feed trained but I found something interesting happening when I added feed. My FHM ate the feed and as they grouped up to feed the SMB would come to the surface and hit the feeding FHM's. It was wild to see.
I only have one areator in my pond and that seems to take care of things nicely. As a matter of record, I do not run the system more than 8 hrs a day in the summer. It seems to be enough to keep the DO where it should be.
Well thats just a view from someone who already has SMB. I am not sure about how your combination would go but I am sure with the right numbers they would be a nice addition to the pond.
Trails,
I think adding bgill will depend on the predator that you add. If you add LMB then use BG, if you do not use bluegill, then start with SMB. LMB can always be added if SMB cannot control reproduction from HBG, RES and goldfish. I highly suggest that you begin removing the catfish whenever you catch one regardless of its size. Two large adult catfish are plenty (and 2 too many in my opinion) in a 0.25 ac pond with bass and mixed panfish. Read Dr. Anderson's very good article about this topic in the current Pond Boss mag (Mar-Apr).
One good, efficient bottom diffused aerator is very adequate for a 0.25 ac pond. In MO with 0.25 ac pond, you may need to run it 10-12 hrs a day for adequate circulation, but not more.
Assuming your initial stocking consisted of small fingerlings then you should be okay to wait to add predators (SMB?) this fall. In summer-fall of 2008 watch for excessive hatch of HyBG or goldfish; they may need to be thinned manually. I am not sure if you know this or not but a large percentage of the goldfish reproduction will not be brightly colored. Many will be drab brown to dark olive. The bad part is most of the colorful ones will get eaten first, leaving behind many of the drab colored individuals. These are the ones, that when common to abundant, will cause problems with water clarity issues.
Your local game warden will be able to tell you the best places in your district where you could catch some SMB. I suggest you not tell him why you want to catch some. Many agency people, for good reasons, disapprove of moving wild fish to private ponds - some may consider it illegal. Moving wild fish to private ponds is very risky and an unwise technique because it can introduce fish diseases or parasites. A person with aids or other serious illness can look perfectly healthy and the same goes with fish. The fish health problem may not show up right away. I have heard stories and seen problems of fish health issues in the receiving waters when well meaning fishermen move fish from one water body to another.
Your friendly neighborhood bass tourny participator would likely know SMB locations, too.
Are they any southern pond owners (or southern "lurkers" on the Forum) who have had success with smallmouth bass in ponds? If so, we'd like to hear from you. We know of some cases where they have not reproduced well. Are there some cases where they have done well?
Dave I do not know of a single pond around here that has SMB. There are SMB in the lakes/rivers in north Miss, north Ala. and Tenn. I will ask around. In the interim you should ask Jeff Slipke as his area is north Miss. , north Ala. and Tenn. for SE Pond. He will have seen a lot of ponds which may fit that category.
You know I dont know why I didnt think about the goldfish spawning.. So far they are still in a group of 10, use to be 11 but that dang blue heron
shows up right after I leave for work, its what the neighbor tells me anyway, I have lots of minnows anywhere from 1" to 2" I thought they were all FHM maybe I will throw out the trap and see what I get. I havent seen the cc since I put them, I assume they are still there and also early on I threw in 10 grass carp thinking it would help with the WM and DW (Still a green horn at that time) I havent seem them either. So far if I keep the algae down the water has stayed between 3-6' visibility. A little too clear I think. So you are saying the Goldfish minnows will grow too large and be a problem with not being able to control them with predators?
Here are some suppliers of SMB in your state:
Raccoon Valley Fisheries
21305 S. Staley Mound Road
Pleasant Hill, MO 64080
816-987-3488
816-540-2367 (fax)
raccoonvallefish@aol.com
Country Fish Farm, LLC
Route 2, Box 328
Salem, MO 65560
573-729-4383
573-729-5021 (fax)
fish@wavecomputers.net
www.missourifishfarms.com Levasy Lake Pond Stocking Service
1017 Tarsney Lane
Buckner, MO 64016
816-796-9963
Harrison Fish Farm
Route 2, Box 61A
Hurdland, MO 63547
660-423-5482
harrisonfishfarm@hotmail.com
Randolph County Fish Farm
1955 County Road 1650
Cairo, MO 65239
660-277-4511
Trails, Gold fish can have long live spans probably longer than any fish currently in your pond. Goldfish will easily get to 9" to 11" long; some varieties get 12"+. With their body shape they could only be eaten by BIG LMB or big catfish.
Good idea, Ewest. I'll try to remember to email Jeff some time tomorrow.
Thanks Ric, I have already talked with racoon valley, no smb until fall, That is where I have been buying my fish.
Bill will the gold fish over populate the pond? Can the offspring be consumed by 3-5 inch BG? or a 12" cc?
Ok, folks. I heard back from Dr. Jeff Slipke, who is with Southeastern Pond Management. He graciously gave me permission to post his smallmouth bass comments here on the forum.
"I do not manage any ponds that have SMB as the only predator in the pond. I have a few ponds that periodically add adult SMB as bonus fish in their LMB ponds. In these, the SMB do not recruit…no earth shattering news there. But the adults grow and thrive quite well.
However, I do have one 15-acre pond in southern West Virginia that is managed as a SMB fishery. It was stocked with bluegill and fathead minnows in Fall 2003, and golden shiners and crawfish in spring 2004. We added 350 adult SMB (8 to 14 inches) in July 2004. Things looked good until LMB got introduced by accident in Fall 2004 via a flooded creek.
Our electrofishing survey in July 2005 showed YOY recruitment of both SMB and LMB, with LMB fingerlings outnumbering the SMB fingerlings by 20 to 1 (WOW!), even though SMB adults outnumbered LMB adults by about 3 to 1. It’s sure tough for the SMB to compete. Anyway, we spent the better part of an entire day removing as many LMB as we could via electrofishing. We ended up pulling out about 40 LMB weighing a total of 29 pounds.
Our June 2006 electrofishing survey showed a 3:1 ratio of LMB:SMB fingerlings, so the LMB removal must have worked somewhat. We are scheduled to go up there in two weeks to remove LMB. We’re going early this year to remove LMB before they get a chance to spawn. I’ll keep you posted.
There are a couple reasons we don’t have more folks go with SMB as the predator species in this area:
-Fingerling SMB are not readily and reliably available.
-The fear of getting LMB introduced and messing the whole thing up.
I wish more of my customers would experiment with them, because I really believe they would do well. My gut feeling is that recruitment would not be a problem if we could keep those darn green fish out of the system."
Proposed Thumb Rule - If you want a SMB pond, use an isolated watershed.
Dave didn't you just know that Jeff would come through for you !!
Many of us keep preaching that SMB will not do very well when combined with LM bass in small and medium sized bodies of water. Jeff Splike via Dr Dave again confirmed our teachings. It will be good to see what continues to develop in the southern WVA pond with the SMB and LMB populations.
Read Norm's good summary below.
Keep clear exactly what everyone is saying here. SMB are outcompeted by LMB when it comes to reproduction. However, they do just fine living with LMB. A person CAN have both. They just have to continually restock SMB large enough to excape predation by LMB. It's absolutely no different than working with HSB.
Trails said - "Bill will the goldfish over populate the pond? Can the offspring be consumed by 3-5 inch BG? or a 12" cc?"
Goldfish, similar to numerous other fish species, can overpopulate a pond if the ratio of predator and prey is not balanced for that particular combination of fishes. Goldfish have many varieties and the number of eggs per female will vary depending mostly on body size of each female. A web search should provide additional information on fecundity of various goldfish varieties.
Goldfish are scatter spawners and eggs are adhesive. Parents and other goldfish will eat the eggs it they can locate them. Hatchlings will be small (1/4") and vulnerable to numerous forms of predation as they grow. The most colorful ones and those with excessive finage will likely get eaten first. BG at 3" to 5" will eat some of the hatchlings up to the point when the goldfish get 1/2" to 3/4" long. Then other larger predatory fishes will prey on the YOY goldfish. The more female goldfish you have in the pond the more likely you will have some recruitment of young goldfish. As I mentioned earlier the more drab colored ones and regular fined shaped faster swimmers will most likely be the ones to survive to become adults. For every bright colored new goldfish you observe there will probably be an additional 10 drab ones. The amount of cover-refuge areas and number and type of predators will be the main factors that will determine survial success of new goldfish.
Thanks for the info on the goldfish. I am so wanting to throw something else in the pond, It seems I have very little of anything lately since it turned cold again and nothing is active, other than that DANG Heron that keeps hanging around.
Bill Cody and Dave Willis, would you mind commenting about the idea that SMB can be managed in a LMB pond just like HSB? Certainly I do it all the time but I just have one lake. For the people that want SMB and LMB and are willing to spend the money (as they are with HSB) this is a reasonable alternative. This is especially true with a smaller lake where only 20-25 fish a year have to be stocked.
That makes sense to me, Norm.
Norm, I have done as you say, and things are working well. Size of stockers is key.
Norm, we move around quite a few adult smallmouths. When someone catches an 18-20 inch "bonus" smallie, they usually remember that fight!
Norm, Your experiences of using larger sized SMB with LMB are typical of what can be done with those two bass combined together. The negative side of stocking SMB with LMB is you rarely get any reproduction from the smallmouth in the smaller bodies of water. To get any additional smallmouth in the pond you basically have to do as you have done - add them as larger sized yearling, sub-adult, or adult fish. IF you do that, then the two will co-exist in the same pond.
Thank you for your comments Theo, Dave and Bill. What I want to point out here is how we can manage SMB and HSB in exactly the same way. When we stock HSB, we accept the idea that we will have to continually restock with fish large enough to escape predation. We accept that cost as part of having HSB.
For me, the cost of these larger HSB and SMB is about the same, $5 each. I restock 20-25 of each very year. That's 50 fish @ $5 each for a total of $250 every year. I spend much more than that on things for the lake every year.
It makes one wonder how SMB and LMB co-exist and reproduce in the same larger waters. There must be a factor related to water size or depth that allows good reproducing populations of both to work. Now if we can figure that out and at what size or depth we may be on to something helpful.
Good question, Ewest. A partial answer, certainly not complete, is that the largemouths and smallmouths tend to spatially segregate in larger waters. Smallmouths gravitate toward rock when available, and largemouths to aquatic plants (or at least the upper, more productive waters), in a reservoir. Overlap between the species occurs in ponds because of small size. Heck, you probably know the literature better on habitat use by largemouths, smallmouths, and spots in reservoirs than I do!
ewest, I am pretty positive that Dr Dave has a good theory why the LMB and SMB are successful in larger waters. It is not a simple factor. I think it has to do with several factors of size of water body and fish behavior, which includes interspecific competition (crossing different species). The ecological principle of " lebensraum " could play a role in the co-existance of these two fish - adequate room for life or existance.
Larger water body size allows for, or increases the amount of space available for niche separation. When too crowded one of the species dominates, almost always the LMB. Competition between newly hatched YOY fish may be a part of the puzzle but I think it is a minor part. I think the major part is overlap of spawning behavior and availibility of sites.
Could the greater temperature stability in large lakes (vs. rapid and presumable greater temp changes in ponds) be partially responsible for the joint success of LMB & SMB in these waters (vs. virtual certain LMB dominance in ponds)? I can't remember enough about SMB spawning temps to even know if it makes sense to ask the question.
Theo, I doubt that temperature regime has much to do with the SMB-LMB relationship. Typically SMB spawn at just a few degrees cooler than LMB. Some overlap no doubt occurs between late SMB and early LMB spawners.
I have successful recruitment of SMB in an existing LMB population, and I have a good variance in lebensraum (rock, clay, weedy areas, etc.). I also have a lot of fresh, cool water inflow.
Now the real question is how many more seasons can I maintain SMB recruitment?
After getting those larger SMB (in addition to the stocking of smaller SMB), and putting in some larger HSB, I'm really considering just removing most all LMB that we catch, hopefully converting ole' bucketmouth into the occasional bonus fish.
Sunil, I think as LMB numbers increase the competition between the two increases. Working to keep your LMB numbers low will help maintain SMB recruitment.
Thanks guys.
Bill I agree that a major factor is room and habitat. That is how much room is needed to offset the competition. I was being more general in the question. The question in my mind and as reflected in Dave's answer, is how much room (vertical and horizontal) and habitat does it take (where is the point reached). A simple question but not a simple answer ( as in one factor) or reason (complicated set of variables).
I will look back at those SMB spawning studies to see if LMB were present and the size of the lakes. They were not overly large as in thousands of acres but still had good recruitment. I don't recall if LMB were there.
Sunil may be on the right track but he has smart SMB that are big enough to eat small LMB.