Well, it's Christmas '06, the pond excavation is completed and the slow process of filling is underway. I definitely have the water quantity to establish a forage base. The plan, after much good discussion on the Alright; talk Fathead to me thread, is to enter a forage stocking strategy as soon as practical this coming spring. But, before I can zero in on the food chain plan, it might be a good idea to plan on the dinner guests. This thread will be my platform for pond resident selection.
We already started to skirt this fish selection stuff on the FH thread noted above. I don't want to lose that good start, so I am gonna cut/paste the pertinent posting below.
Bski says: Ewest says Bski says:
Bill Cody says: Theo asks: Bill responds: Bski asks: Ewest responds: This is about where the constructive stuff ended and the highly anticipated goofin' began. Ain't it always the way. If I missed some good constructive stuff from that thread, please help me out and bring it on over here and post it.
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Now, may I request that we pick it up from here and continue? I have a few more thoughts on my goals, so I will restate my desires.
I like: BG, YP, CC, and maybe Smallies? I am more focused on good eating; not so much on prize winning trophies like LMB. I want low maintenance. I am going to be promoting waterfowl propagation, so there will be periods of tiny ducklings in the water. I think I gotta preclude LMB since they see tiny ducklings as a snack. Would SMB pose a similar threat? Can a somewhat self sustaining pond of 5 acres be composed of, oh say, BG, YP, and SMB?

from what i've gleaned here, i would speculate that yer proposed BG, YP, and SMB will not effectively control the BG population growth over time. you might consider HBG, but of coarse this brings its own mgmt worries if their offspring cant be controlled by the YP and SMB.

I wonder if HSB would be a potential predator choice for brettski and goals of good eating and limited mgmt?

I would think SMB could pose the same duckling dinner threat but for a shorter period of time as their mouths arent as big and the ducklings grow pretty fast....and your large shallow wetland area will help that issue alot.

edited post....i also dont recall if you added any rocky habitat?.....critical for good SMB spawning

Thanks, Dave...
We have about 8 more vertical feet of water elevation to go to normal pool. As with all ponds, this will be the least return of depth per rainfall as it fills a pond that grows wider with each addition. Point: I have some time to still add some stuff at 8 ft deep and less. I have a pile of about 12 tons of oversize river rock mixed with clay (stock from our driveway base). No, I'm not crazy about having to dig in cuz I don't have the equipment...but...I might be able to borrow a tractor with a bucket from a neighbor (hmmmm...I was tryin' to not be beholdin' to anybody, but this is far too important). Actually, I have another option that is a little more attractive to me. I maintain an option of using my 16' utility trailer, go to the local nursery and pick up about 3000# of 1" river rock, and fill the saucers. The leftover 2850#...???

Obviously you've never seen Lake Erlenmeyer.

I believe ewest already proposed this on another of today's Brettski threads, but if you can add HSB as needed, I think you could make BG, YP, and SMB work with the additional predator.

As a fallback, introducing LMB should get any runaway species (unfortunately, including SMB ) under control given time.

What did you decide on for forage species to start out with? Just FHM? Any GSH or Gambusia?

i'd vote for gams....they cant hurt anything as far as i reckon, and only do good things among them being forage.

lets throw in a little philosophy for folks to argue about........an after thought from my earlier post....brettski, you know already (with yer personality) you'll never be able to completely avoid fish mgmt, you are too hands on, that said.....my take on an essentially non-managed pond is that whatever you stock will evolve, you'll have a growth period with not much action, then a renaissance where everything is awesome, and then a decline into mediocrity. this process may span 5, 6, 7, maybe 8 years, longer in a larger pond.

as such, one approach may be to just stock whatever suits yer fancy. i doubt seriously one could stock the perfect way to almost completely eliminate the need for management and maintain a long term top of the line fishery.

at some point, say 9 or 10 years down the road, i'll bet you a dime corrective management will be a necessity to bring the pond back in balance no matter what was initially stocked. you WILL also have GSF at this time, and we can argue then whether or not the birds brought them

the above is (perhaps) an argument for putting BG in yer pond......personally, i just cant imagine a pond without BG if they begin to overpopulate some, so what?.....if yer not concerned with condello sized trophys and would be happy, as many of us would, having abundant and consistent fishing action and pan ready fish in the 7 to 8-inch range....just imagine the fun. a 5 acre pond will grow some nice lepomis.

if your not too far north for RES, make sure you pepper in a lot of those too.

shoot me down

This matches well with the model I've observed in watching dozens of ponds that were allowed to evolve without management.

Fish such as RES, SMB and HSB are extremely unlikely to become management headaches. RES and SMB because of low fecundity and HSB because of virtual sterility.

I think if you like these fish you should stock them. If you add LMB later you can quickly subdue numbers of these fish if necessary.

Your pond will thrive, as most new ponds do, and at that point you will be so comfortable with management issues that it should be a matter of routine to reset the pond with harvest strategies.

YP are the fish that I would completely defer to Mr. Cody. I love them, and think they would survive in your pond, but they are probably a wild card of sorts.

BG will probably overpopulate in the absence of LMB. They almost certainly won't overpopulate however if you have a LMB community that sees limited harvest. I think maybe stock both or neither. If you're not sure, then stock neither because they are easy to acquire later and can be added in.

My rule of thumb says: It's easier to stock fish than to unstock them. Don't add fish that you are unsure of.

A few thoughts and questions:
LMB are average taste for consumption, right? Thumbs down. They will suck down ducklings fairly readily; thumbs down. They are great sport fish; don't really care. They are excellent for controlling more than just BG population, right? Thumbs up.
SMB are above average taste for consumption, right? Thumbs up. They have smaller mouths so they are less of a duckling threat, right? Thumbs up. They are another great sport fish, right? Don't really care, (but cool advantage if they are are the chosen ones). The big question: How are they for controlling other populations?
HSB....taste? Their desire for Dunkin' Ducklings? Their ability to control other populations?
OK, here's the deal. I was all OK with LMB. They seem to be the ideal neighborhood robo-cops. I've got issues now with the Dunkin' Ducklings franchise going into the wetland zone. Past that, I'm still good with robo-cops. Talk to me.

HSB taste....OK, if you do the right things.

HSB desire for Dunklings....Zero.

HSB ability to control other populations....Not nearly as good as you'd think. Depends on what they're controlling. If your pond has a big weed-free area and you're talkin' shad, then the HSB will hit 'em pretty hard. If it's any other fish that's utilizing aquatic vegetation for cover, then the HSB is only a minor player. Studies have shown that you can squash YOY crappie numbers if you stock oodles of YOY HSB, but big HSB will only thrive in a pond with significant aquatic vegetation if they are stocked in low density or have high amounts of artificial feed.

I do believe you can have a good bit of diversity in a 5.5 acre pond. However, I would start by establishing some kind of ecosystem, and then if, down the line, you want to add some bonus fish here or there, it's an option.

If it was my pond, I would go with Fatheads, Golden Shiners, Yellow Perch, SMB, and HSB.

I would not introduce them all at one time; instead, I would phase them in over different time spans.

For instance, you can easily get larger HSB (8" up to 16" plus) for stocking whenever you want, so I would let YP and SMB get to 10" plus sizes before I put in HSB.

I would put fatheads and YP in this spring (I would have already put fatheads in....sorry, had to say it for burger).

Then depending on the availability of SMB, I might put them in Fall '07. The smallies don't grow as fast as LMB (or HSB), so exisiting forage fish have time to get bigger even with 5-6" SMB around.

Once the smallies were 8", maybe 9-10", I would start to load up on Golden Shiners in the 5" plus range. Again, these are easily available.

I would give the Golden Shiners about 6 months to grow, and then I'd put in some larger HSB stockers. Or bump up the HSB stocking, but go with smaller stockers like 6-8".

Anywhere down the line, you could add a few channel cats just for a surprise fish, or even a few walleye.

Keep in mind, I've added 30-40 Channel cats to my pond over the last few years, and I've never seen a single one since. The last three I stocked where 26" long each, and albino to boot. Never saw them again.

sunil, one of these days you'll hook up, it will surprise you so much it will pull you over the side down in the drink, you'll swim to shore all the time hanging on to yer rod, and you'll fight another 10 minutes and pull up a 30 lb catfish

brettski, i wouldnt necessarily agree that LMB dont taste as good as SMB. i've had both, and loved both. what i have noticed though is a difference in taste between any black bass species taken from cold water versus warm water though.....and prefer those taken from colder waters, of which yer pond will likely qualify.

as i ponder the duckling dinner aspects, i know for a fact (and many others here have said the same) that LMB take ducklings......however, if sufficient forage exists in the pond (i.e. lotsa BG) i am skeptical that the LMB would have a really significant impact on waterfowl reproduction given your large shallow wetland area....not trying to sway you fish wise at all, just curious (and drawing attention to ) if any thorough studies have ever been conducted on this issue.

in our case, they (the LMB) take some every spring down at the ranch pond but it doesnt seem to hurt the overall presence or population of ducks in our area. the larger factor appears to me to be coyotes and fox, perhaps coon.

Bski-
Here are a few thoughts about your stocking plan.
Firstly, I very seriously doubt the SMB in the presence of normal densities of underwater forage items, will ever eat a duckling. Possible but not very likely. If SMB are eating ducklings, you have some trophy class SMB worthy of Cecil's big pondfish contest. If you keep your SMB crowded, I doubt that the pond will ever produce trophy class SMB capable of eating even day old ducklings.

Secondly, see this thread from the "old days", http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000079

Lake Doctor, who we hear very little from recently, was very pro SMB-BG. As I recall, he was about the only one here who had some experience with this combo and felt strongly about the benefits of it. I and dave-in-eldorado and probably others, question how well SMB will control BG. I am not sure of the reasons why D.I.E.D says it is a poor choice, but I have doubts about it primarily because of the high variability among pond habitats and the common occurrence of poor SMB hatches and the ability of BG to quickly grow to a shape not condusive to being eaten by a smaller mouthed predator. If you do decide to go with SMB and BG, then reduce the problem of SMB recruitment by providing ample optimum spawning habitat for them. Be prepared to supplimentally stock some SMB when YOY recruitment is very poor. SMB-BG obviously can work in some situations or else Lakedoctor would not have been so positive about the combination. One very impt thing we never gleaned from him was the amount of weed growth present in his successful ponds with the risky SMB-BG senerio. I think the SMB when in crowded conditions (low harvest, with high densities) can very likely hold the BG to reasonable densities. There is a small pond near me that has SMB YP and a few HBG. Here in this moderately weedy, 0.3 ac, the SMB are overcrowded and they RULE where largest SMB here is around 16-17" and most are below std weight. Almost no recruitment occurs for YP or HBG in this pond. Grass carp may be a way to feasably manage weed growth for you and minimize the amount of natural refugia in your 5 ac pond. Minimizing weed growth will "open it up" and reduce the hiding spaces for small fish.

Now, if you go throwing in other forage species such as YP, shiners, crayfish, that manage to survive long term, then the SMB may resort to feeding on other spp rather than BG. It gets complicated. As others have suggested, when BG get out of control, the ability of adding LMB would allow you to get the BG back to normal densities. IMO if the SMB have BG under control, I doubt very much YP, at the same time, will ever be over populated. I think small YP (2"-4"), if commonly abundant, will be a preferred item by SMB.

There has been recent discussion here about the ability of larger YP to control or heavily prey on BG esp the ones smaller than 2". Ewest & Cecil (I think) emphasized in a recent post this ability of YP to prey on small BG esp during winter. I dug deeper into the published research about this topic. After examining it, I was still doubtful about how much impact YP will have on controling BG. I intreperted the situations where YP ate significant numbers of small BG were the exception rather than the rule. Also YP ate small BG more when other winter forage items were usually "slim pickens". However I do think YP when present at significant numbers at 8+" can consume significant numbers of small BG during cold water periods, but again it depends on several or even numerous interrelated variables as to how many small BG get eaten by YP. I repeat absensce of other forage items is important for this behavior to occur.

Bottom line from me for right now, is I would not be afraid to stock SMB-YP-BG along with appropriate forage fish. Initially go a little heavy on SMB numbers. You want to start out at least for the first several years with overcrowded SMB populations.

But first, decide why not to initially try SMB-RES-YP and forego BG. YP and RES should be able to provide a very adequate panfish fishery. Some HSB and or catfish can be added later or almost anytime in a 5 ac situation as the fishery becomes established. If the combination gets out of hand then make some adjustments with LMB and-or BG. It will not take very long for BG and LMB to become major players in an existing combination of SMB-YP-RES.

Maybe we can entice the LakeDoctor to revisit the forum for more of his insight on this topic after he has had time (3yrs) to gather more experience with SMB-BG in his client base. I am not sure that he is still in business?.

Postscript - Obviously there are other very acceptable combinations of fish for your new pond. Other members should lend their opinions to broaden your choices.

I wonder if Brettski can get SMB without an overpopulation of SMB. It would just seem sad to me if he had smallies, but all were like 12" or so.

I also think that when a smallie gets to 14 & 15" and greater, it eats a hell of a lot of fish in the 3-7" range.

my thoughts were similar.....that given sufficient cover, BG can and will find the shelter and grow to sizes to where SMB are no longer able to down these spiny (ouch) mouthfuls, whereas LMB have the esophageal capability to eat a volkswagon. so what about if brettski makes alot of killer SMB spawning habitat, and initially understocks the lepomis, he could have YEARS of great fun before corrective measures (i.e. LMB) would be needed.

all this goofin around here, and i could have been making HSB catchability plots for George :rolleyes:

i'll go away now, its been fun thinking about yer plan Brettski, thanks for letting me speculate....as usual you ask great questions, and bruce, bill, sunil, theo, and ewest have laid some awesome groundwork!

Prof Cody offers:

The SMB-YP-RES stocking plan fits my desires just fine, me thinks. I did not have my heart set on BG. They get marquis billing because of Bruce's efforts, results, and reporting. It's kinda tuff to not get cranked on 'em. It sounds as if BG are so dang prolific that they can set imbalance way to quickly and readily. Why is this not also true of YP and RES?

With the RES, they spawn MUCH less frequently than BG. In climes where BG spawn 3-4 times per Summer, RES spawn once or at most twice.

RES have much lower reproductive rates than BG.

YP can stunt but not near as likely as BG to do so especially with predators. Easier for a predator to eat (swallow/gape size) a 4in YP than a 4in BG.

I have held off on my thoughts so others can go first.

I like Bill's ideas !! I really like Bill's ideas !!! We have talked about this with smaller ponds on another thread and I think it will work fine on your larger lake. Think about adding some of those larger rocks you have access to in piles . YP are very good eating and bite better through the ice/ in the cold. YP should use those cribs to place egg strands. See you knew you were headed in the right direction.

View this like a tool box full of tools. Use the ones you like for the job knowing full well if the tool doesn't get the job done you can try another one or use them in another fashion.

For example we have not said much on stocking larger fish later as a management tool. Sunil mentioned it and it is a very effective tool. You could do so with large BG if the forage seems short or with any of the predators (including a few female LMB [watch out ducklings] to control the forage base.

Does anyone know the effect of GShiners consumption of YP egg strands ?

My best suggestion for now is to look at the 2 PB issues where Prof Cornwell discussed northern pond options (see Bill's archive of PB TOC - 2006 May/June # 10 and July/Aug # 8 -- thanks Bill).

Bski says ""It sounds as if BG are so dang prolific that they can set imbalance way to quickly and readily. Why is this not also true of YP and RES?""

Almost any fish, depending on the species and without proper predatory pressures, can relatively quickly overpopulate. As always numerous variables affect the balance and outcome.

Theo in his post above, explains why RES tend to be significantly less prolific compared to BG. It has been documented in literature that mean number of eggs for females (6.8"-7.8"long) of RES is 16,000 compared to BG 58,000; a 3.6 times fewer number for RES.

YP can be quite prolific and if you stock them you can expect to see their egg mass ribbons draped on your Condo Structures in late March to early April. One of the features of yellow perch is they remain an elongated fusiform shape their entire life. Elongated shapes are easy for predators to swallow and a 6" YP has only 1.3" body height vs a 6" BG or RES having an ave 2.5" body height. Thus YP are vulnerable to predation from predators with smaller mouth gapes for a much longer time period compared to BG. When planning a fisheries community, it is important to consider all aspects of ethology for each species. Ethology - study of the behavior of animals in their natural habitat often considering evolutionary explantations.

Since you plan on eating some fish from your pond, RES will be good a helping minimize common nuisance fish parsites that can make fish fillets unappealing. Be aware that RES will not readily co-operate for anglers as BG do. But the YP in normal compared to very rare densities will always be willing to bite baited hooks.

Sunil says- 1. "" I wonder if Brettski can get SMB without an overpopulation of SMB. It would just seem sad to me if he had smallies, but all were like 12" or so"". 2. "" I also think that when a smallie gets to 14 & 15" and greater, it eats a hell of a lot of fish in the 3-7" range.""

1a. It will me much easier to prevent and manage an overpopulation of SMB compared to LMB. Bski's problem will more likely NOT be overpopulation but too few SMB due to common nest failure of SMB. As mentioned previously Bski needs to closely monitor YOY and juvenile populations of SMB and YP; his two likely biggest variables. Management duties, as in every fishery, may include thinning or or supplimental stocking.

2a. A much too general statement without some proof or several references. I am not so sure that once a SMB gets to Sunil's target length of 14"+ that it "eats a hell of a lot of fish in the 3-7" range". Compared to what? As always, it all depends. Numerous studies have contraicted Sunil's statement; however one can always find exceptions. The general opinion from food habit studies for SMB, is they eat lots of crayfish and invertebreates and smaller sized fish. Several food habit studies of larger (13"+) SMB found larger fish had the highest percentage of empty stomachs compared to SMB smaller than 13", which causes one to question them eating "a hell of a lot of fish". Several studies found insects remained an important portion (20%-78%) of the diet of SMB as large as 20" in lentic habitats (still water). Commonly, studies have shown that fish play about a 47%-50% part of the SMB diet across a wide size range of individuals. Several studies, including some from the very diverse food base present in Lake Erie, have shown crayfish to be the most important food item. Due to the behavior of SMB, and IMO, when crayfish have at least a common occurrence, the crayfish and not fish will predictably be the dominant food item of larger SMB. However as in many feeding habit studies, numerous species of fish are opportunists and will consume whatever is most readily available, at any particular time, be it fish, bugs, or crayfish. In many cases fish diet often changes dramatically with season due to food availability. Some of my reference information came from The 1st International SMB Symposium. 1991 D.C. Jackson editor.

It is all about GOALS. Bski said he is not about trophy predators, so crowded, smaller sized predators will work fine for him. Always consider the specific pondowner's Goals.

Ewest, I had no problem with YP recruitment in the presence of an abundant Gshiner population. YP recruitment did not significantly decline until green sunfish became established.

Of course, I would always defer to Cody's knowledge.

However, I wonder about the self sustaining ability of crawfish in a 5.5 acre pond unless Brettsker continually introduces them. At the very minimum, I wonder if they can be as substantial a portion of SMB's diet vs. larger lakes.

That is why I feel that SMB will do a good job of controlling YP, and even Golden Shiners.

In my pond, I've watched larger SMB gorge on Golden Shiners with extreme predjudice! I have not been able to watch my LMB do the same thing, although this may just be a timing issue.

My pond is also a little bit on the colder side.

At any rate, no scientific data to back my comments here!!

Also, I've observed the most YOY of various species when I've had extensive weed problems. So as others have said, it plays a major role.

I can testify that LMB will hit GSH hard as well.

Me too, Theo. What I was meant was watching what I'm pretty certain was the same smallie eating numerous 4-6" shiners.

Obviously, LMB do the same, but it seems that Brettskus is being mostly being advised away from LMB.

If you have good craw habitat ( rocks ,weeds and woody cover) and start them in time to reproduce before the predators get big enough to eat them then you can establish a population even in a 5-6 acre lake. It can not alone be the base , or even a major part, of the forage plan. In this case you would not want craws to fill that roll as that would reduce SMB predation on YP yoy and FHs. I would bet that as in most crowded situations a few SMB will get through the clog size (12in) and grow big.

Read those Cornwell articles. Either LMB or BG alone ( with out the other and even in combo) require more management effort than many other stocking plans. They are both great fish but you have to manage them. BSki is not inclined that direction at first and I concur with this judgment. I would also consider adding GShiners to the mix and be ready with some larger HSB and supp. SMB, if after a couple years it looks like the SMB need some help controling the forage.

You know, there's always the strong possiblity that Brettska will be "hooked" on fishing after it becomes his own fishery.

To all - A crayfish is not all crayfish and an alga is not all algae. This means that different species have different habits and niche requirements similar to fishes which many of you can readily relate to. Again I refer back to ethology. Sunil states - " However, I wonder about the self sustaining ability of crawfish in a 5.5 acre pond unless Brettsker continually introduces them."

As always, it all depends. The ability of crayfish to self-perpuate in the presence of a predator in any pond depends a lot on the specie of crayfish and the specie of predator and the habitat available and etc. Let's relate this concept back to forage fish and bass. Fatheads may not last long in the presence of LMB but BG will usually establish themselves with LMB. Why? It is basically because the two forage species have very a different ethology or traits. The same is true for any species. One specie of crayfish may not survive well or long term in a pond with bass, but that does not mean that another specie or two or three species in combination will not thrive in that same pond. A crayfish is not all crayfish. Always allow a "lot of room" for variation among different species. I think a lot of what I perceive as the problem that non-biologists have with this concept is that they do not have a good grasp on the number of species present in various typical aquatic habitats and the amount of variation those species possess. It is overwhelming.

Personal note to Sunil. Despite what it may superficially appear, I am not picking on you. Your comments are very good in that they sometimes allow me to expound on a topic and provide a little extra insight to the wonderful world of pond life. Consider yourself a valuable forum contributor.

Thanks to all for kickin' this next major step around for me. I don't mind being subject for an experiment...but...I would like to go into it knowing that the variables are well known and reasonably controlled to render the most likely conclusion anticipated. I feel good so far.
So, as this stocking plan gets boiled down, allow me to summarize where I (we) are right now.
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It appears that YP and SMB are the fish combo of choice. Do I understand that RES should also be included?
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Let's preclude BG (for now)
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How about CC? Would they provide any pros or cons? No, I don't have a need or specific desire for them. The subject just never got much attention.
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If I expect to see any appreciable SMB reproduction, I need to prop up my severe lack of rock. I need specific instruction as to what type, size, shape, and depth location of rock to apply. I am pretty limited on what I can do at this point. Here's the picture. There is only one area left that I can access that hasn't seen water arrival. It is a fairly large area, maybe an acre or so. It is the zone that is part and parcel of my wetland area. Now, a little more on the wetland area. Donna-ski and I spent another quality day yeterday, drilling holes, mixing sakrete, and setting 4 x 4 green treated poles for nesting structures/bat houses/whatever in this wetland zone. More cold, more rain, more 20# clay-laden boots. Yep, this is what Christmas vacation time is all about! Miserable, but done. Part of this project was to shoot elevations. Some good news, some potentially bad from a "wetland" point of view. The good news is that I will, indeed, get water to back up into the timber we left in this area. It will be about 2' deep at the timber edge and run back about 30' - 40' over a shoreline of about 300'. The potentially bad: We took quite a number of passes with the scraper thru this entire area. Basically, he ran the scraper parallel to the timberline and continued parallel as he moved out further into the basin. So, what we have is 2' deep right at the timberline, then a quick drop to 3' deep 10' out, then 4' deep 25'out, 5' deep about 40' out, and so on until it reaches the tire/PVC reef at 7' - 8' deep. The following pic is taken from atop the building site pad. The "zone" is pretty well framed within the pic as we look down upon it. The sand beach can be seen just outside frame to left.
There is a narrow draw that feeds runoff water, just about dead center, going straight back into the woods. Normal pool will back up into it about 100'. The tire/PVC tree reef is the furthest structure array.
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Another perspective shot, taken from very near the timberline about 75' from the sand beach and looking back to the area where the first pic was taken from.

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OK, the water has backed up to very close to the reef line. There is about another 8 vertical feet of water depth to add to normal pool. This area is the only non-wet zone left that I can access, albeit not very conveniently. Definitely not PU truck accessible, but I could probably get a garden tractor and small cart in there. Yep, that's the only equipment that I have readily available. My thoughts are this: I wait until it's all frozen to eliminate the 12" of sloppy moosh. I get the G tractor and cart down there with a load of 3000# of river rock (or whatever would be the best ROI for SMB repro. structure), use a shovel and tote 800# loads for placement. I can handle this. Now, take these facts, equipment availability, my work-capable back and desire, and formulate a plan for me.

Bill, no offense taken, ever!; and no need to explain your inputs, but thanks nonetheless. I think I love you.

Brettski, I always felt that you were not taking advantage of the ability to add a lot of tonage of rocks.

I have seen my smallies spawning on a steep bank (leading down into deep water) that has a 1' wide flat ledge just about 1' under the water (the water level can fluctuate to where this area would be 2-3' under water). There is also a lot of brush growing out into the water in this area. It's very rocky there too. If you look at the picture in my profile...behind me and to the left, you will see a bank coming down into the water. This is the area that I've seen a lot of my smallies spawning in. It's the original creek channel that runs through my pond.

I think if you got a few dumptruck loads of rock and dumped them down the banks (in the pics you've shown), and let them fall out onto the flat bottoms, you would be off to a great start. Maybe make some "step like" gradations in the slopes; that plus the flat rocky bottom would do it, I think.

A side note on the bluegills: After my smallies spawned, and had small fry, I saw many bluegill hanging around the nests (still with the parent smallies in them), and the bluegill were dive bombing in and eating fry, I believe. I believe this was just before swim-up.

If you're man enough to handle them.

I think they'd make a good addition to the SMB and YP, Brettski, occupying a third niche but very unlikely to "take over" the pond from the other two species the way BG might. They will give you a portent of what BG would be like in at least a couple of ways: they'll fight like BG when hooked and taste like BG when eaten (you might like eating RES so much you decide to make the leap to a BG pond ).

Also, while CB1 has had success with YP controlling snails, I suspect RES do a much better job of this in a larger pond where the density of YP is probably significantly lower than in Cecil's fabulous fat fish factories.

One does not need to stock catfish to have a successful pond.

On the plus side, they grow quickly (especially if fed), are fun to catch (especially when larger), and many people love to eat them. Most or all of the complaints about catfish tasting bad simply do not apply to CC from a pond (especially if fed). I personally do not enjoy eating CC as much as sunfish, YP, or bass, but my kids like them just as well.

On the down side there are some possible negatives (depending on how much you ended up liking CC). They would probably become the largest fish in your pond. Small numbers of stockers could effectively disappear in a pond your size (see Sunil's experience). Contrarily, given your present structure (mostly the tires, IMO) there is at least a chance that CC would successfully spawn in your pond. How much recruitment they might get I don't know, since I've no experince with SMB and YP predation on CC fry/fingerlings. CC recruitment would probably not be so high as too be a problem if you were a big CC fan.

Due to the ready availibility of relatively inexpensive large-sized CC, they are a species that could easily be added later. Given your current ambivalence about CC, I suggest deferring stocking them until the future (if you ever want to). Just buying some CC fillets at the supermarket and trying them could help you decide.

If you don't get the same or better links first (Sunil may have already told you all you need to know), I will post the info I have been saving at home from the forum on SMB spawning structure creation after work. IIRC, it's about 90% Bill Cody wisdom with a seasoning of ewest's typically useful off-site links.

I bet you have sufficient dry pond bottom still accessible to create plenty of spawning areas for SMB.

Brettski, my friend, I haven't commented on your thread thus far because I don't have direct experience with a YP/SMB pond....however,the statement above is more than I can stay silent on.

I can't imagine a pond without BG's. I also doubt your "hands-off" desire will be actually implemented in practice...you are a "hands-on" kind of guy, much to your credit.

Your comment forces me to reveal, in the interest of our friendship, my own bias towards BG. The highest level of "fun" I get from ponding is growing and catching large BG...and I include all kinds of BG in that statement...CNBG,natives, hybrids, etc. That love has evolved over many years. Ok, they require some management, but what in life that is worthwhile doesn't?

Without getting evangelical (or more than I already have) and with due respect to your pond goals, I'm willing to bet you will have BG anyhow and planning for them in advance is better than reacting to them later...my reasoning is simple...Nature abhors a vacuum and a pond without BG.

Merry Christmas, Brettski and come back to Texas when you can, but plan on a side-trip to my ponds and I'll make a BG believer out of you.

“It all depends” on what Cody says, but otherwise I totally agree with ML – with HSB to control over population.

Brettski :

I have a fair amount of info on SMB spawning as it relates to this topic. The basics have been covered above by Bill , Theo , Sunil etc. and the pics I posted.

A lot of the structure/rock piles can be done from the Liberty Ferry with a little work, a piece of plywood, a shovel and a piece of 8in pvc. Most of our pond structure has been added by boat including rock piles. I can go over the methods if you like. The right locations are more important than just dumping in a bunch of rock right now. You have time but start locating the rock and collecting it in a good location as you get time. If a couple good locations can be ided now and you have solid truck access that would be the easiest method.

I'm very interested in hearing what ewest and others might think are good locations for SMB spawning material.

Thanks ML and George. Let's let this thread play out a little more and see what happens. That's what this entire give-and-take of info is all about....good stuff. Oh yeah, and Merry Christmas to da bote a ya's...thanks for stepping aboard this thread.
Bob Lusk diplomatically admonished me when I first posted here a little over a year ago. He noted that my plan for the pond construction seemed to be "build it as I go". I kinda disagreed, but ultimately, when I look back, I did. The pros: I went slow and discovered/added some cool features that weren't even on the original radar. Cons: I did some stuff bass-ackwards that may have cost $ in the long run. Regrets to date? None. Unless...I did it again with my "late to the dinner table" plans for stocking. If SMB are a main player for me now, then my focus needs to be on placing rock structure....even tho it would have been easier before I closed the drain valve.
Ewest (and others)
You likely provided all this already before, but paint a picture for me of the optimum SMB spawning design. If I had a ton of rock, what size would it be? How would I lay it in?...just a pile? Would a one ton pile be better that 4 piles of 500# each? Would it be a 500# pile of 1.5" river rock with a couple of basketball sized rocks at the edge of the pile? Is there a minimum distance between this pile (or whatever form you recommend?) Or, instead of river rock, would it be a ton of softball sized rocks?
Also, at what ranges of depth? I really want to consider laying some SMB spawning structure somwhere in the gradual slope between the tire-PVC tree reef and the treeline. I'm getting this vision of a half dozen piles of smaller river rock, maybe 36" dia, with a couple of larger out-structure rocks next to the pile. These would be spaced out maybe 20 ft apart...somewhere at about 2' to 7' deep...?

Bski - Sunil describes SMB spawning in locations very similar to those I have observed numerous times, especially when optimum substrates are lacking. Sunil said: "I have seen my smallies spawning on a steep bank (leading down into deep water) that has a 1' wide flat ledge just about 1' under the water (the water level can fluctuate to where this area would be 2-3' under water). It's very rocky there too."" Also consider that the individuals that Sunil has described may be subdominant males that are spawning in seconday locations while the most dominant males could be in the prime locations with optimum substrates. Sunil has a fishery with mature large SMB. For examples of optimum substrates that have been gleaned from research papers refer to ewests post.

I will post more later from a remote location (Christmas visit) about catfish, revisit the BG issue, and discuss snails & YP.

Ok guys I get the picture. GIVE US MORE INFO !! I will dig out the studies and consult with Bill and we will come up with some ideas. Those pics of actual SMB nesting are a very good place to start. I have more but it will take a little time.

I'm gonna piggyback you like a little brother on this, Brettski, in the hope that I can get a breeding population of SMB established in pond #2 (coming soon to a theater near me).

BTW, I am mentally budgeting 20 tons of stone for 1/3 acre pond; one of us may be way off, size-wise, in figuring the scope of this. I hope we find out the right way!

Theo slips his thumb to the scale (again): The diff is your forethought to doing it when the time is correct and with the correct equipment. If I was ahead of the SMB curve, 20 tons would likely be 1/2 shy of the real McCoy for my project. As it stands, my last chance "pre-water" may very well be alot of small loads/shovel work. 20 tons of this type physical output will seriously hamper my ability to carry you piggyback.

You might see if a slinger truck is available in your area. See www.rockchuckers.com for an example. Might save your back.

BSki I moved 20+ tons of gravel by shovel, bucket and wheelbarrow and boat for spawning beds and so can you -- ouch my back !!

ML....sounds eerily familiar

D.I.E.D.,

Ok, you made me go back and read your earlier post..we do think alike...that should probably scare you.

I would have mentioned the Gambusias also, because I'm probably as big or bigger fan of them as you are, but then I would have also had to talk about HSB and how they would complement any selection of BG, especially in Brettski's climate which is far more favorable to HSB than my Texas hotter than Hades climate...but well, Brettski, seems to have his mind made up.

Hey, D.I.E.D, you ever thought about Tilapia? Just razing you, not trying to hijack Mr. Brettski's thread.

ML adds:
Never say never...at least for the next couple o' months or so; until I do have to start making committments. If I return to personal fundamentals, the only things I do know for sure is... a) I really would like YP...b) I recently developed a negative attitude toward LMB, only because of the dunkling thing...c) I want low maintenance
ML, you are one of the posters here that I hoped would provide input, experience, and opinion. Take what you know of my desires, my project, and my midwest location and tell me what YOU would do.

Brettsker...low maintainence CAN be taken to the extreme. You do want to bait your own hook and remove your own fish don'tcha? :p After several months of not working on the pond anymore, you'll be looking for something to do. Water temps. at various depths, twice daily alkalinity and hardness samples, analyzing why one solar feeder goes off 15 minutes after the next.(all with graphs). You may even want to sample your stock via trapping, seining, maybe even fishing. Good luck. Dont let all those creative PVC attractors go to waste. Sorry, I cant add anything intelligent to the aforementioned recommendations(but I could help with the sampling part).

ok brettski, back one final time.....i know yer done hearing from me, but i cant resist, sorry, this is just too juicy.

the length and diversity of this thread reflects the true complexity of pond (and fish) mgmt. at the same time, you can simplify very quickly. if mental and physical simplification is not attempted, nothing would ever get done.

summarizing the situation.....you have a hole with water. add in some habitat aimed at the type of fish with which you want to start. throw in the fish.

boy oh boy have you not already done most of the hard work?....very jealous in el dorado.

the plan?

as others have suggested, start with the questionably hard to raise fish first, and add the easy ones second if the first batch fail.

a) get some Gams, FHM, and RES in
b) get some rocks in, throw some crawdads on top
c) get yer YP started
d) experts....for SMB stocking, is there a recommended wait period after YP, or stock w/ YP?
e) get yer SMB in
f) wait, watch, enjoy, bet a quarter you'll be wanting to manage

as much as ML and I have beseeched you to stick to the all american dream of a personal BG pond, hold of on the BG, hold off on the CC, and keep LMB on the back burner to save yer pond sometime......8 to 10 years from now. you will need something more than SMB to prey on the GSF you WILL have.

ML.....not scared ....i would love tilapia, jeffhasapond and i may be researching the permitting issues in CA....it might not be possible without an act of God. i read all of yer tilapia posts with great interest and have learned an unbelievable amount. thanks.

Here are the SMB spawning info threads I have previously saved (this thread is on the list now, too):

SMB in Farm Pond

Getting ready to dig my first pond


Theo Lets add them all here for now.


http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000499;p=1

I will provide some comments to Bski's questions about BG, and catfish. Then I will add a few comments regarding Theo's above statement about snails.

I think the currrent consensus is to omit BG from the original stocking and they can be easily added at a later date. Since LMB will not be present, IMO it will be relatively easy to get BG established in a fishery comprised of SMB, YP, RES, plus of a forage minnow/shiner/crayfish combination of one to several species. Ffor crayfish seek out Papershell crayfish (Orconecties immunis) which is naive to IL. Sunil has observed BG "dive bombing" SMB nests to feed on fry. I also watched HGB and GSF feeding on eggs and fry from their cohort nests. fish as nest robbers are common especially when forage fish populations tend to be over crowded. If BG were present in Bski's pond with SMB, HSB and some catfish I suspect that it would not take much of a fishery imbalance to allow BG to quickly get to a point of overcrowding. LMB can play a very big role in controlling BG. When BG overcrowding occurs the already fragile ability of SMB to recruit YOY could be at even greater risk. In conclusion, with SMB as your main predator, delay use of BG until they are necessary or strongly desired and you want a more complex fishery that will demand more watchful monioring and management.

Meadowlark states: ""...with due respect to your pond goals, I'm willing to bet you will have BG anyhow......" Bski, please make a permenant note of ML's quote and you might want to take ML up on his offer with a "small" wager. I am not sure if he means BG will naturally appear in your pond or that you will eventually decide you cannot live without BG and eventually stock them. Maybe ML will elaborate on this. Regardless I am very, very interested if your pond ever gets "naturally stocked" with BG or another sunfish species i.e. uninvited invaders. As time passes please keep us advised on this ML quote.

Catfish - Since Bski has at least several vehicle tire structures, these structures will serve to promote CC recruitment. As a side note, I have commonly observed CC using tire cavities for nesting. I have also seen SMB frequently utilize tire cavities for overwintering locations. Other species probably also tire cavities as overwinter deep water structure. My experience is that in a pond without LMB the CC very often produce some good recruitment into each year class. IMO the LMB with their large mouth and attitude can exert significant predatory pressure on young CC until the juvenile cats are around 10" long which can last up to two or more years. I think this degree of predation of LMB on juvenile CC would be significantly less when SMB are the dominate predator. When catfish become larger and their density becomes common to numerous, I have found the water clarity noticably decreases to visibilities of 12"-24". Decreased water claity often results in less efficient predation which can easily lead to overpopulation of one or several fish; often the mose prolific ones present. Catfish can thrive in turbid water, but sight predators and foragers will suffer. I think the best water clarity would be in the neighborhood of 3'-5' for your planned fishes (SMB,YP,RES) IMO omit catfish unless you really have a strong desire or passion for them. I think they will cause more problems than they will fix or help with your planned SMB,YP, RES fishery, i.e. more cons than pros.

If Bski wants a secondary bonus predator and since he is in IL, he should strongly consider walleye. They very rarely recruit young, are fairly easily managed, grow to 24-28" long, are very good eating, fairly catchable, and will help control YP, SMB, and RES and will never cause water turbidity. The ethology of walleye is very compatable with YP and SMB since they naturally occur together in many northern lakes. For Bski's application walleye have more pros than cons.

Theo stated " ..while CB1 has had success with YP controlling snails, I suspect RES do a much better job of this in a larger pond where the density of YP is probably significantly lower than in Cecil's fabulous fat fish factories." Theo is correct. YP can control snails but the snails have to belong to the genus Physella or else YP will not readily eat snails. Physella is a thin shelled snail and I have found that YP will pretty much ignore other species of thicker or heavier shelled snails. It all depends. A snail is not all snails. RES have the ability to forage on numerous species of snails including some of the thicker shelled species. For starters IMO for Bski needs, the most natural panfish combination would be RES and YP.

Pursuant to perusing the good stuff behind the SMB in farm pond link that Theo offers in an above post, I want to take the liberty of borrowing some of Dr Dave Willis' ideas and practices and re-post them here. They parallel some of my last-minute ideas for providing gravel or stone medium.
Dr Willis notes:
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NEDOC asks:
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Dave responds:
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(some good discussion evolves, including Eric explaining his "shallow shelf with gravel" success)
....a little further, Dave adds:
-
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OK, so this practice sounds so darned similar to what I don't have (gravel beds) and what I do need (gravel beds). In fact, it kinda smacks of the saucer beds I put next to the cribs. It also plays to my thought of smaller piles of hand-placed gravel in a number of areas of the flats that remain water-free for the short term. So, I ask again...is this plan a crazy waste or a decent start? Heck, I don't even mind picking up the same rubber feed tubs; I know right where to get 'em.

I bet the relatively high (8"-10") sides on the feed pans help SMB feel safe/defend their nests - an added bonus to helping keep the gravel together year after year.

Here are the studies which are not online and not available except as part of the AFS Symposium on Black Bass 2000. Bill I will assume you don't have these unless you say otherwise.


Habitat Features Affecting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu Nesting Success in Four Northern Wisconsin Lakes

and

Habitat Selection of Nesting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu in Two North Temperate Lakes

More later after another review of these materials.

Brettski don't get in to big of a rush. There are several ways to get there.

I don't think this is a waste of time or crazy. I bet that a little patience will result in a set of top notch answers and specific suggestions of how to get there.

Okay Brettski, your wish is my command...straight talk.

Here is what I would do. First, I'd forget about the backbreaking labor to add rocks and gravel at this point in your project....a waste of time and energy in my considered opinion. You have already done enough, more than enough structure. Changing course over to a SMB pond that mimicks the strata they normally encounter/prefer is highly questionable in terms of rewards to you, unless SMB have always been the love of your life, your passion, and you just have to have the very best SMB pond in the mid-west.

Second, I'd really concentrate on the forage base for the next growing season. I would include FH minnows for a quick start and would also include Gam's for a long term self-sustaining low maintenance source of forage. I'd also look for other long term self-sustaining forage, perhaps golden shiners but I don't have enough experience with them to give a full endorsement.

Third, I would stock the very best quality genetics that I could find BG/RES in an 80/20 ratio.

Let all these critters thrive and grow all next growing season. Then, next fall add your YP in whatever amounts you like, add some SMB in small numbers...then, also in the fall, stock the mainline predator HSB.

I would use the HSB to be the principle controlling/balancing agent over the BG. If stocked properly, i.e. in the right mix, you will have a very low management pond with some quality fishing.

If you subsequently decide you want to up the ante and have more of a "sport" fishing pond with larger HSB and BG, simply set up a couple of automatic feeders and feed the HSB and BG. Otherwise, don't even bother with the feeders and the constant maintenance and hauling expensive feed which isn't the best for your water quality anyway. I don't see many artificial feeders in Nature.

With this approach, down the road, if you start drinking Lone Star beer and suddenly get the urge to fish for LMB, you can add them and reduce the HSB numbers....or go to a near-by public lake and get cured of that urge.

In solving an equation, we try to reduce the number of unknowns. HSB do not reproduce. That eliminates a big unknown that you may have with other predators. In looking for a good system in a somewhat dynamic environment, we strive for the ability to make adjustments with predictable outcomes...seeing too many BG, add more HSB...seeing too few BG, reduce the HSB.

If I lived in your climate and had your goals, as best I understand them, this is what I would do. In fact, its what I would do in my climate, except HSB have shown me to be intolerant of my water quality/climate combination. Instead, I have to go with a different primary predator and different forage system.

One last thought, for the if I was in your shoes response. I'm not sure about pond vegetation in your area nor the nutrients you are likely to have in the water system. I think I would kind of talk around to some neighbors to find out if they have weed problems or bad algae problems. If I had the least bit of doubt, or indicator of possible weed problems, I would stock one or two grass carp per acre next spring as pre-emptive preventive maintenance. I would also look very carefully at those who try to get you to fertilize your pond...again, staying with your disdain for "sport" fishing, why would you invite all the potential problems that fertilizer can bring to achieve something you do not even strive for?

There you go...you asked for it...I gave it, in sincere, straight as I can words based on my experience and my attempted understanding of your objectives.

+1 on small numbers of GC as weed preemption.

I second Theo's vote for +1 on small numbers of GS as weed preemption. (ML's comment: "I would stock one or two grass carp per acre next spring as pre-emptive preventive maintenance".) Keeping underwater vegetation in tight reign will optimize the ability of SMB to control small fish. Try that Bski (2.5 to 3 GC per ac 12-15total) and please try to keep us advised as the types and amounts of rooted vegetation that develop. Thanks.
Postscript - Cody reviewed his Dec 21s post and corrected & edited several comments.

I would put the rocks in regardless of what fish you choose to stock. I think it's great structure all around.

Also, weed growth is greatly reduced in the areas that I have rock beds. That alone provides great vertical edges (going from weed to no weed).

I wonder if Brettski is really changing course here. I don't think he has selected a course yet, and anything he's done to the pond, structure wise, fits under the "generally good for any fish" category in my book.

I would second the use of rocks especially the ones you already have available. Where and how to use them depends on the fish types chosen.

My course is still uncharted, Sunil. I truly appreciate the collection of information and ideas from everyone. I have not discounted anything yet. Quite frankly, I'm not qualified to discount anything yet.
I have been thinking about the rock thing. I may have a bulk option and idea that I might be able to play when the ground gets good and frozen. It would have to be frozen solid so I could get a fully loaded tri-axle all the way around the perimeter road, across the dam, and nearly to the beach.
Just short of the smaller pier that we framed in at the sand beach is an area of embankment that is somewhat less steep; maybe 4:1 or 5:1. It is between the expanse of the dam and the beach zone. I don't have any super good shots of the area, but see if these might help:
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It is the barren area just the other side of this pier. The weeds are a barren area with a more gradual slope that I could possibly back a tri-axle right up to the edge and dump it down the slope.
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This angle is within the basin back a few months ago. It will demonstrate the slope of the area. It is BEFORE the pier framing. You can see the beach zone at right of frame. The pier wound up at the upper left corner of this rectangular shaped beach. The tracks in the soil go right above the area just past the beach that I am considering. That grade looks more like a 4:1, maybe 4.5:1.

-
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I could bring in the Tri-axle; he would want to haul about 22-24 tons of the following stuff. I could get him to back up and split the load, side-by-side. I would (try to) have him dump it just below the normal pool water line so some of it would slide down hill a little, yet it would stay in a flat mound. It would be this same oversize that I used on the driveway.

It's oversize river rock. It goes from 2" to softball sized with a few basketballs. It has clay mixed in.
I can probably get this delivered for about $9 per ton. I'm heading out to work on the saucers tomorrow. I'm gonna spend some quality time sizing up some potential options, this being one of them.

That type of rock is great for SMB. Having spawning areas near your pier is a great idea. It allows you to sit or stand on the pier and watch the spawning miracle and do some bed fishing as well.

Still working on the prior question.

What ewest said. You know, I love pulling out the boat and tooling around my pond, but there's almost nothing better than just sitting at the pier and catching crazy fish.

So far, I think you've preserved all of your options and the rocks continue along that same line of thought.

I also vote to do the rock thing. If feasable, consider splitting the 20-24 ton load into three or four parts each a truck width or more apart. The more segreated your rock piles the more likely it will be that a successful bass nest will occur in each pile or cluster of rocks.

Brettski sent me a p.m. and asking me to comment on the thread. Here’s what I think – he should add the rock! I’m not saying he has to, just that he should. A few thoughts follow.

First, back to those KS ponds and the feed tubs with rock/gravel. I guess that I honestly wasn’t there long enough (only about 6 years) to really know if they were needed to get smallmouth bass reproduction. The biologist who told me about that “trick” is one of the best biologists I know, even to this day. He clearly said and clearly meant that the smallies would not reproduce successfully without some rock habitat and that he had to add the tubs.

Now, having said that, all of my smallmouth ponds in South Dakota have PLENTY of reproduction – in fact, nearly all of them require management to reduce smallmouth bass numbers, or they overpopulate and stunt. That includes sand and gravel pits where you would expect them to reproduce, and “hill ponds” that have very little rock. So, I honestly don’t know why those KS guys were convinced they had to add the rock baskets. Smallmouth bass must like them, as that is how our state hatchery guys get the smallies to spawn in raceways. However, do you need the rock to get them to reproduce? I don’t know for certain, and based on observations by some other folks up your direction, maybe not.

I think Brett should add the rock just for diversity of habitat. He’s obviously having fun, and diversity in habitat is good. Small, black, fingerling smallmouth bass (still less than an inch long) can be found in rocky, nearshore habitat after the male is no longer guarding the brood. They get very shallow as they try to escape predators, they are stark black and very visible, and they are easy and fun to observe in the pond. Do they need the rock? Maybe not. Do they use it if it is present? Yes! The same thing is true for adult smallmouth bass. They may not need rock, but if it is available you can bet they will be there. The rock can make great fishing attractors. I’m just brainstorming here, but why not run some rock from the shoreline down to about 6 feet depth in a few locations. Also, for an attractor for adult fish, why not make some small underwater islands or at least “humps.” I’m with Bill on making several separated patches of rock. Stack the rock deep enough (thick enough layer) so that it doesn’t disappear into soft substrate. Plus, get some height (3-d is always good for fish habitat).

I really liked the picture of the rock you showed. The more of it that reaches basketball size, they better. I wouldn’t fool with just gravel – get some bigger rock. I like the rock in the picture because the smaller rocks and gravel may fill in nicely between the bigger rocks when you make a pile or a strip.

I am not a big fan of grass carp in many situations. However, I have stocked them into smallmouth ponds just because the vegetation is not necessary for the smallies. So, the advice on low density grass carp stockings seems good to me.

As I said, we can’t get our smallmouths to quit reproducing, with or without rock. However, I have heard other southern pond folks say that reproduction is NOT a sure thing down in the southeast. So, we may have a latitudinal or temperature thing happening here. Regardless, if Brettski is having fun with his aquascaping, and cost is not a huge concern, I’d say go for it!

Dr Dave, Thank you for taking time to provide some additional thoughts regarding your experiences of rocks and bass spawning. Multiple opinions that are similar and backed by experience provide more trustworthiness to the advice.

Dr.Dave brings up a very good point about the benefits of rocks and gravel, in that "....add the rock just for diversity of habitat". "The rock can make great fishing attractors." Cody's experiences with rock habitats are similar to those of Dr.Dave. Numerous invertebrate species that serve as fish food live among the rocks that contain growths of periphyton (food for invertebrates). Rock piles enhance the food chain.

Bill did you get the info ?

Ewest - YES "FRIENDS & FAM ARRIVED us MAIL. WAS THAT YOUR REFERENCE? Bill

Points from the studies below which come from the AFS symposium on Black Bass 2000.

Habitat Features Affecting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu Nesting Success in Four Northern Wisconsin Lakes

and

Habitat Selection of Nesting Smallmouth Bass Micropterus dolomieu in Two North Temperate Lakes

Much of the info is from the same set of data collection but the first study involves more lakes. These are small Lakes – a few hundred acres. My interpretation or paraphrasing unless quotes. I will start with a few points and will add more and I hope Bill will also as he can use the edit the post function.

Rock (gravel to boulders) matters wrt nesting.

Near by wood matters also.

“Variables associated with nest protection increased the probability of predicting nest presence. Previous studies had documented and described smallmouth bass nesting in gravel and cobble substrates, and near boulders , fish cribs and other types of cover…. Wood cover, which bass use for nest protection, can increase survival of swim-up fry.”

Stay away from silt areas as they are the least likely area for selection – silt which = silt washing in on eggs does not work.

“The placement of fish cribs and large logs near coarse substrates … offered additional cover for nesting male smallmouth bass ,whereas those placed in silt and sand areas were not used”

Nests in water depths from .1m to 3m. Depth not a significant selection variable but important and may be significant in fry survival. Water clarity is important. Deeper depths are used but did not have the necessary rock cover in these lakes. ERIC, DO THE ARTICLES MENTION A VISIBILITY RANGE AS OPTIMUM? CODY NOTE - SINCE CLEAR WATER APPEARS TO BE BENEFICIAL TO FRY SURVIVAL, THE STOCKING OF CATFISH OR ANOTHER SEDIMENT ORIENTED ORGANISM (CRAYFISH OVERPOPULATION) COULD BE DETRIMENTAL BY PRODUCING MORE TURBID CONDITIONS. A FEW CATFISH STOCKED INITIALLY MAY NOT BE A PROBLEM UNLESS THEY REPRODUCE AND CAUSE CC DENSITIES TO INCREASE HIGHER THAN THOSE STOCKED. I SUSPECT OR CURENTLY THINK THAT IN MANY UNFERTILIZED PONDS WITH TRANSPARIENCIES OF 16"-28", THE CLOUDINESS IS PRIMARILY (GREATEST %) DUE TO SUSPENDED SEDIMENT AND DETRITUS AND NOT A PHYTOPLANKTON BLOOM. MORE ON THIS TOPIC LATER, HOPEFULLY IN 2007.

Distance from shore did not matter wrt selection but may well be important for fry survival. Avoid wavy near shore areas as it stirs up silt and washes eggs about.

Most likely sites selected were near shore , non silt , in water .5 to 3m, near wood ( cribs where available) and larger rocks where nest substrate consisted of gravel/rock where 40% of the particles were 6.4 to 149 mm in diameter ( .27 to 5.9 inches). In a 1m squared area . Coarse rock helped survival of eggs probably because of better O2 and less fungus.

Survival of eggs/fry was effected by habitat features. Distance to cover from nest , diameter of nearest log cover and rock size and nest position were all factors.

Will mine some more data later.


Brettski add some of that mixed rock and a few logs/boards to that crib area.

Comments or questions ?

OK, here's where I am at today...
First, I need to thank Meadowlark for stickin' out his neck, by my request, and kinda buckin' the status quo. He's my friend and I respect his experience and opinion.
I have to admit, tho, that I am strongly leaning toward the SMB/YP/RES opening act. I like the idea that some other options may be available down the road; like BG and HSB and/or LMB. I think that the opening act noted gets me started where I think I want my goals to be. The subsequent options are a bonus, should they ever be required or acted upon. This includes introduction of robo-fish-LMB.
The spec's Ewest posted above, along with Dr Dave's and Bill Cody's valuable experience and opinion, give me some comfort that I have sincere hope in spurring a SMB spawn. It sounds like the cribs and the saucers I installed are right at the correct depths, ranging from 2' to 7'. I am still banking on the saucers, so there will be some additional landscaping around each unit. Their spacing seems to go along with Bill's experience that SMB like a little separation. I am going to add the snow-fence curtains around each, and at least one double-basketball sized rock at each one. I am scheming to come up with some kinda slip-shod treated lumber or PVC structure thing, too. This would be designed to meet the "log" zoning requirement that Ewest notes. I appreciate the simplicity of a log, but I want structure longevity. Ya know, I still have a bunch of that 6" PVC pipe from my E-bay purchase for the pond drain. Maybe I cut that stuff up into 3 ft sections and bury 1 ft into the bank like a pipe organ...? Hmmmm....maybe 2 of 'em, side-by-side?
OK, now the rock. I have gotten preliminary approval from the boss to spend the bux on a tri-axle load of rock (I keep pushin' her red cow-girl boots further down the priority list...I'm runnin' outta paper). I think I see this 24 ton load over at the other end of the pond, between the dam and the beach pier. I see this because the slope is a little flatter and I don't have squat for structure on that end of the pond. I know the driver that they are going to send. He's a young kid, heart of gold and hard worker, but not real good at splitting loads. I will be lucky to get him to drop it in 3 separate piles. I'm thinkin' that if somehow we have a really good day and the load is sliding right, maybe I can conserve a couple of tons and have him drop it over the edge at the cribs on the way out. I think I want to concentrate of the dam-beach zone first, tho.
Oh yeah, the saucers. I'm gonna put in 1-1/2" river rock. No sand or soil...just the rock. It will provide the aeration and circulation you guys say is necessary for egg survival. Right?

No thanks necessary, Brettski. I knew I could safely "stick my neck out" with you if it represented my thoughts and because you are a friend, I knew you wouldn't cut it off. I'm looking forward to the day I get to visit...and maybe catch one of those YP's. That would be a first for me and certainly an honor.

Ewest encourages:
B-ski contemplates a sensible, long term application:
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So...what if I took that 6" PVC pipe and cut it into say, oh, 3 or 4 ft sections, layed 'em down (like a log), and drilled 1" holes thru 'em. Then, take a couple of 3/4" rebar with a short 90 degree hook at the top end (like the anchors on the polyvinylphibian saucers) and pound 'em thru the PVC log to anchor it permanently. Whaddayathink?

Sounds like a winner to me!

Brettski I have taken sections of pvc added some quickcrete an eye bolt and staked one laying down and one laying on top of it and put the rebar through the eye bolts and staked them down. You get a 12 in log effect.

Pvc will work. I would suggest you scrape it up a little so stuff will stick to it and grow better.

Ok, it's mid January and I gotta stay on top of this one. The crib zone is dang near complete. Whether or not this particular structure zone will have any apppreciable effect on a SMB spawn...well, I may never know...how would I know? Crib Thread
Knowing this, I am working on creating the truck-load rock bed we discussed a few posts above. If that doesn't do it, I give!
Assuming these final structure pieces come together, at what point do I start making supplier contacts. I presume that stocking forage base will somewhat coincide. I want to try to keep that PB categorically separate, yet parallel, on the Fathead and forage base thread .
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I'm feelin' pretty good about the volume of water that I'm working with. The issues will likely be more likely related to clarity and chemistry. To what extent, I don't know, nor understand. Anyway, as slow as things appear to go, time is flying. Don't blink; it'll be spring.

Snow Saucers - $10
Rebar for anchoring structure - $20
Storm fence for skirting and skin - $40
PVC pipe, cleaner, and glue - $60
Then there's his time - that gotta be worth something :rolleyes: - $5

Fish ignoring Brettski's structure and spawning in all the footprints he made slogging through the mud installing it - priceless!
_____________________________________________________________________

Actually, you probably could know by using one of those underwater video system.

I think between all your ingenious hard work, the persistence of Mother Nature, and the Innate Perversity of the Universe, your SMB will spawn OK.

Put a few fist sized rocks in each snow saucer near the back edge and a big rock on the bottom near the shallow side of each one. If you don't want to mess with the big rocks then use cinder blocks with the solid side toward the nest. You can stack them or put rocks on top for more height.

Page 4 of this thread spends alot of quality time discussing the need for some areas of rock to enhance the SMB spawning experience. Well, I finally got about 18 tons dumped today.
We are about 30" from from full pool. The clock is ticking loudly for me to back a truck down to the shoreline without risking getting him stuck. We have had about a week of no rain. It's now or never for the last accessible area of reasonably shallow slope.
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Donna-ski sits on the beach pier framework as we wait for the first truckload to follow the perimeter road around the pond to where we are. The row of orange flags is the normal pool shoreline.

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I opted to pay a little bit more for freight and bring the rock in on a smaller single axle truck that carries 9 tons. We had better control on splitting the dump and sweat alot fewer bullets as he backed down the slope toward the soft shoreline.

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I took 2 loads, total about 18 tons. It was spread out over about 50 feet wide in piles. We were able to get the line to run from the shoreline, and angle it downward to about 2 feet deep at the other end of the 50' long rock reef.


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A couple of the piles are too tall and need a front-end loader push. Past that, tho, I think that's about it....or at least I hope so.
Special message to Burger, Sunil, and Ewest: I spoke again with my fish guy this past Monday....soon come, mahn.

Brettski:

Based on info from ewest, I would add several large logs distributed throughout the rock field as further SMB spawning enhancements. Say the biggest you might have laying around that can be easily moved with the front end loader, especially wood that would last longer under water, staked/cabled down. I am earmarking some large hedgeapple (bois d'arc/osage orange) cut fence posts for my SMB later this year.

Sorry I didn't mention it here earlier.

Favorite Texan bois d'arc quote from the PB Conference (Lusk IIRC): "That wood lasts 75 years, then turns into a rock."

Wowe' B'ski that is great looking SMB rock. I wish Bill and I were there to help you make a few beds. Near the 3 ft mark (or as deep as you can with out a swim) level out a spot about the size of a car tire. Then put some marble to fist size rocks in the bottom. Then arrange around the edge of the area about 3 of those big rocks in a semi-circle with the open side toward deep water. Find a piece of log and lay it near (w/in 4 ft) of the bed and put a few rocks on it to hold it down (or tie it down). Try this - Since you will need this info before Bill and I finish our article take a look at this.

http://www.helpourfisheries.com/how_to_build_a_nest.htm

Good stuff, Eric - I saved all that for use in a few months.

Nice work, B'ski! That's gonna be a heckuva spot for a PB conference in a few years.

THE FISH-GUY COMETH
Almost a perfect delivery....almost.
We have opted to begin with 300 RES fingerlings, 300 YP fingerlings, and 75# of FH. We're the 2nd stop of 4 on this route. They hike in, meet us at the launch, survey the driveway set-up and determine that they would rather bring the goods to the pond in buckets on the back of the D-ski PU truck. All righty...I'll work with it. We all walk back out to the county road and prepare for the haul. Now mind you...this is all new to me, so I don't really know what to expect or really what to do other than take the fish to the pond. So, I asked the stupid, obvious questions...like...."so, ya got my whole order in that there tank?" He replies "yep, Perch, Redears, Blue Gills, and your Fatheads are over in that tank". Blue Gills? ...there better not be any Blue Gills. He pauses, thinks quick and apolgizes that he doesn't remember the specific species for each of his four stops today and tells his partner to get my ticket. He reads it and apologizes again, stating that I do indeed only get YP, RES, & FH. Then we talk a little more and I advise him why I do not want one stinkin' BG. We get the YP and RES into the buckets and move 'em to the PU truck.

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Just before I pull away to deliver the new pets, we start talking again as he explains that their FH pond got contaminated with a few BG. He explains that most all his FH customers have BG ponds and don't really care. He can sense that I do. He puts in the dip net, sorts thru 'em and sure enough, he flips a BG onto the ground. I told him that he is going to either sort every fish or take 'em back...NO BG! He fully understands my posture and puts up no argument. I ask him about the purity of the YP and RES. He assures me that there will be no problem there, admitting that the only issues are in the FH pond. We deliver the YP and RES from the boat launch.

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When I get back, Fish-guy continues to be cooperative and apologetic. He says that there is no way he is going to be able to do a 100% sort thru 75# of FH here. He says that, had he known the FH purity concern, they could have done the sorting last night. He is now very concerned for my satisfaction and offers to just take them back and catch me on the next run in my area. I return the concern for his potential loss, but admit that eliminating introduction of BG trumps. He says "no problem at all", adjusts the bill, and knocks off the delivery charge. He assures me that he in no way wants to be responsible for lousing up my pond. I admit that I would have never known. He smiles and says that he could have easily just dumped 'em in, but that's not how he operates. His reputation is at stake.
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So, 300 1" - 2" RES and 300 4" - 5" YP. I understand that the RES are way too small to be eating anything but the Phyto-stuff, but what about the YP? At what point are they gonna be lookin' for minnows? I did note during the bucket dump sequence that I had a bunch of little tadpoles and under-water bugs swimming around. Is this the kind of stuff that the YP will be eating?

As long as you have had water in the pond, there will be plenty for the fish to eat for a while. BUT, I'm pretty sure I see some bluegill coming out of that bucket......NOT. Good stuff, B'ski. It's gonna be all good. Congrats.

When will they be back with the adult FH ?

I'm sorry, but this sort of stuff gets me really P.O'd.

The fact is, he did know that there was a FH purity concern. When he looked at your dang order. The order stated yellow perch, redear sunfish and fathead minnows. That is as clear of a "FH purity concern" as you can get.

Personally I wouldn't trust him in any further matters.

B'ski here is a link to YP food. Look on the right for juiv. Looks ok to me.

http://www.fishbase.org/TrophicEco/FoodItemsList.cfm?vstockcode=373&genus=Perca&species=flavescens

I'm kinda with Bruce on the balance of my order. On one hand, he was as honest as the day is long and I actually do trust him. But...on the other hand, I don't think he is familiar with the purist point of view. Bruce is right; read the order. Does it say anything about wanting a couple of BG's? Strangely, tho, I believe that some things happen for a reason. I think that this guy will now truly sort thru 75# of FH, one by one, and give me the most assured level of purity. He really does care; he just had no idea that I wasn't just another "trow em in da drink" customer. I really think that he may now actually be my best bet for FH purity out of all the options. Am I crazy?

Brettski, trust your instincts. It's been good on everything so far. If you think he'll sort, then he'll probably sort.

It makes you wonder how these guys feel about bullheads. You know...most people have them anyway. :rolleyes:

Congratulations, Brettski. Today you are a disturbed-with-fish Man.

We need to remember the averted unhappy potential here when we talk about 1) "How did those fish I don't want get in my pond" and 2) adding wild fish versus commercial stockers and the misidentification possibilities.

Dude is not going to sort through 75 pounds of fathead minnows. If I had to venture a guess, 75 pounds of fathead minnows is easily over 10,000 individual fish. Neither are you to be truthful about it.

But maybe he'll do something about his future fathead rearing ponds.

You've done everything to the obsessive "N"th degree, so there's no need to alter or compromise your direction now.

For the future years, I question the ability to keep a 5+ acre pond pure to the original stocking ideas. Therefore, for me, I wouldn't have been too worried about it.

I also believe there is some compromise when dealing with living things in volume. However, I also understand Bruce's comments and also his point of view being an obsessive freak-like purist.

Congrat's Brettski, you've done good.

Congratulations Brettski. It'll work out.

Does he live close enough that the FH could be stocked in partials? 75# is a heck of a lot of FH. They only live about 2 yrs I think. Maybe a lot will die before being eaten, especially with small predator fish. When is the stocking of SMB due?

This fall.

** The fish guy returneth **
Well, I needed to get the FH in and wanted to add to this initial stocking to get some "closer to decent" numbers. I decided to go with the original vendor for everything for a few reasons. The biggie is that he has the YP that I need. WRT the FH, he took them from a different pond and still sorted them before they hit the truck. Right, wrong, or indifferent...I am going with it.
We added another 500 YP, 1000 RES, and cut the FH stocking back to 60#. Net result for this initial spring 2007 stocking: 800 4"-5" YP, 1300 1"-2" RES, and 60# FH.
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Fatheads, Fatheads....rollie-pollie Fatheads

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footnote and credits kudos to D-ski for handling coordination of this project; I was on the road working and sipping (virgin) margueritas with another PB brethren

Did you see that 37th one from the left?? I think it's a golden shiner.

cheers from el dorado brettski. i fully expect quarterly reports with pictures bragging on the growth rate of yer YP and RES.

lets, see....about 3 years from now, you can brag about the GSF you'll have too

BC as you no doubt know shiners won't hurt Brettski's stocking plan nearly as much as a few BG.

Fishie - fishie - fishie - fishie - little bitty fishie. to the tune you know.

You oughtta give that gal something for her trouble, maybe a nice hat.

I don't see D-Ski sporting the Jaegerwald Farms hat.

Great going, Brettski.

Have you tried any pellet feeding yet to see your pets from the first stocking?

dont encourage him sunil, he might actually like it, begin to like fishing, and then actually begin to like eating his fish.

BTW, yer little question thrown at me after my first stocking changed my life. I had an awesome feeding this afternoon...continued gratis.

Sunil quickly finds the anomoly in the B-ski Child Highlights fun-pic:
a) The J-Farms hat arrived shortly thereafter via Ski-HL 2 day select.
b) D-ski does, indeed, like to wear straw hats for sun shade, but those thick, furry forearms are unfamiliar to me. I'll leave the natural selection explanation to our resident caveman expert, Dr. Condarwin.
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...Sunil successfully locates the 13 hidden fishies in the fun-pic and continues:
No, I haven't. I kinda hoped I didn't need to go to that level; hinders the the low/no maint. goal. At one point during our numerous telecons, the gal in the office at the fish vendor mentioned that the YP were on pellets (or some type of surface feed), but I wonder how accurate that statement is...? Can they be surface fed when they are 4" - 5", in their second year?

Yes they can be. YP eat pellets well and most hatcheries keep them on pellets to grow out.

As ewest had indicated before when he mentioned letting the fun begin, the hand-throwing of pellets soon becomes an addictive act with the power to derail other important project work.

D.I.E.D. is still drooling and dazed by it as referenced in his posts. I, however, can take no credit for it. I'm a novice feeder at best.

But if the fish supplier says their fish are feed trained, I'd give it a go.

But don't think that you have to feed on a regular basis. You've done real good with the forage fish you've provided. See the feeding as just another fun thing that will benefit you and your fish.

PS, Brettski, I'm going to give it until early '08 before I start riding you to stock a limited run of walleye and HSB.

At that time, Burger, I may consult with you first on how to create a "wonder-twin power activate" type of effect on Brettski.

I tried to do this with Mudcat Joe, but all he would say is "form of a big bullhead." We didn't get anywhere.

(hmmm; feeding the fish might be another hook for D-ski)
OK...where do I go for feed (that is relatively convenient)? It's not a wally-world thing, right? I'm thinking I should ask my local hog and cattle rancher where he gets his feed...right?
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I am having a tuff time seeing any appreciable participation for din-din if there's 2100 tiny dinner guests scattered throughout 5 acres. I'm not there enough to continue a training regimen. I just don't see how showing up every few days, banging on a piece of metal to summon Pavlov's dog, and throwing out a cup of feed will garner interest.

Has Theo been forwarding copies of the 1977 TV guide again? Not you too! If your copies of PB mag have been arriving much more frequently, look closely at the cover before being absorbed by the magnetic content. Theo's spell checker won't work with his Sharpie, so the cover should never look like Pond Baus

Brettski, at my pond, sometimes it takes a few minutes before anything hits the feed that I throw out due to several factors such as temperature, water clarity, wind, etc.

For you, what I would try is to pick a place where you envision fish would be like near some of the structure you've placed.

Throw some feed there and wait. You might have to wait for several minutes. At first, if all goes well, you might only see a small boil here or there.

The fatheads will hit feed, and sometimes their activity will lure other fish to the scene. Your fatheads could be in any shallow area.

Hand feeding does not have to be regimented.

That's "Pawned Baas".

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Feeding can be more enjoyable than fishing.

50 lb bags can be found at tractor supply-type stores and grain & feed mills. Wallyworld does carry fish feed, but in smaller packages and at higher unit cost. Their biggest bags are ususally koi food; I have been known to get cichlid pellets, krill, etc. there for the PBR.

I don't have the heart to subject our forum members to the wonder twins.

OK, Eric...I'm startin' to think you're getting kick-backs under the table from my rock-guy!
8 more tons, split up in 3 dumps, around the launch dock/deck.

Our friendly, neighborhood farm pal has agreed to return with his front end loader in the near future to give it all a little push further down the slope. We got the single axle dumper right up to the edge and let 'er go, but it's still too shallow. A couple of pushes with the bucket, and this entire section of shoreline should start to look like fish-vegas.
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This is about 1/3 of the load in a pile, just beyond the deck.

those look like some nice glacially eroded cobbles and boulders.....you can never have too much rock....IMHO good goin.

One of the good things of your pool holding at ca. 3 ft low is having more time for stuff like this rock work.

Brother, you won't be sorry you did that. You will be able to sit on your dock and see all kinds of stuff going on.

If you don't have polarized sunglasses, I'm sending you and D-Ski each a pair for the full-pool party.

I know that this post really belongs on the "Creating the Food Chain" forum, but I want to keep this stuff glued to the LNP adopted fish family thread.
Actually, this little event occurred about a month ago.
It took a little networking, but I was able to locate a reliable vendor for papershell crayfish. The vendor was far enough away that air freight made the most sense. Check this stinkin' story out.
I spent a half dozen phone calls arranging what seemed to be the perfect timing for delivery. It's the Memorial day weekend coming up, so I plan the vendor to ship the crays on Thurs afternoon via overnight air. They arrive on Friday and we can give them a change of diapers, fix up their linens, and keep them comfortable thru Friday night so I can make an early trip on Saturday morning to the project and introduce them to their new digs. My vendor wants to use US Postal service, next day priority air. Hmmmm, I'm a UPS guy, but I'm not the expert....OK.
I call him and get the tracking number. They made it to a major midwest city during the first leg of their journey. That was it. Friday comes and goes; nothing. We have been calling the post offices at both ends. Nothing. I go to the project on Saturday with nothing, leaving D-ski at home to continue calling and waiting. Nothing. Monday rolls around. Now it's been too long. My vendor kinda keeps it light, assuring me that they WILL be found...just follow the stink. We're sittin' down to lunch on M-day and sure enough, the uniformed USPS guy rips up the driveway in his van and scurries up to the porch with a large styro box inside a plastic bag. Even the neighbor's cat ran in the opposite direction. I could tell by the look on his face that the prediction had come to fruition. They DID find it. I didn't even open it; it was absolutely horrible in the closed condition. The vendor filed the claim.
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A week later, we try it again, only this time via UPS next day air. Bingo!...like clockwork. 250 of the little buggers.

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D-ski named this one Gigantor. She got to spend quality time with the new pets since I was at work during their arrival and refreshment. She's sumthin else. She said that Gigantor kept trying to run away, his claws raised in defiance.
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...per instructions, we split 'em up. 1/2 in the styro cooler and 1/2 into a plastic cooler we already had. Fresh strips of newspaper, well dampened, and a plastic baggie full of ice cubes to chill out.
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...LAST ONE IN GETS HIS HEAD SUCKED!

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I asked my vendor if he minded that I post him as a source. He respectfully declined my offer. He has way more business, both commercial and private, than he can handle.
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Bottom line? $150 for 250 crays delivered. We lost about a dozen thru the entire process (not including the first catastrophic attrition).

Omaha Steaks sell paper crawfish too?

Look all of Eric's toy solider craws marched across the road in NY and down to ILL to Bski's LNP.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=72255&fpart=1

Brettski:

I just reread all of this and have a question it doesn't answer (IIRC).

Do you have plans to stick in some Grass Carp?

...and a good question at that.
Last summer was the first summer for this new pond. It was about 2/3 full. The entire perimeter had weed growth out to about 4' deep; mostly american pond weed. There is a fairly large, elongated underwater island that was at about 3-1/2' deep that also had notable weed growth. I am uncertain as to the balance of the pond that is over 4' deep.
We are going into this, the second year, full to the brim. Now, those areas of 3-4' deep with weeds are at 7 - 8 feet deep. I am unsure if they will continue to grow from those depths...? I assume alot of that has to do with water clarity. The new wild card will be the 1/4 ac or so in a shallow zone where the nesting boxes are located. It is now completely covered with water over an area of much lesser depth and bottom slope than the rest of the pond.
Anyway, given all this, I think I am at a wait-and-see point in development. I compound this thought process with the idea that the FH and cray forage base will need a little extra protection to survive and/or multiply.
Unless the experts tell me otherwise, I want to see how this year plays out before I make the GC commitment.

SMB nest with logs added.

Time to start thinkin' Top Predator
Well, it's time to introduce a couple more players to this new pond cocktail.
I was outta town on biz (and dinner with the Gallus's...nysch pond(s), dude), so Dski was given the responsibility (again) to meet up with the fish guy.
We brought in 20# of deez:

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...and 50 some-odd of doze:

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Although I have been apprehensive about stocking smaller SMB with YP that are starting their 3rd year, Dr Perca assures me that the SMB attrition should be reasonably low...and...Sunil and Shorty have convinced me that SMB are born with inordinately high levels of intelligence and connivery. I regret that I will miss the gags that they have planned for the rest of the pond residents.

Those SMB are already setting up the books in the Shiners' lockers to fall out when the doors are opened and stealing lunches from the YP. Frankly, you don't want to know what they are doing to FHM freshmen.

Strangely, they don't seem to mess with the Redear jocks. Hmmmm?

When the fish guy extracted the SMB from their transport tank, Donna-ski told me that she was surprised and noted out loud that they were "fat". Fish guy laughed and assured her that this is normal. No doubt, an attitude was imprinted upon the specimens within ear-shot. This would explain the angry and aggressive look in their eyes.

Those facial stripes are neat looking.

Way to go Brettski, and welcome to B.I.S.A.!

Are those guys pellet fed? If so, the fish food thing is going to be extra special to watch.

How big do you think they were?

How did I miss pics of such good looking fish. Way to go B'ski. Those SMB will do fine as they humble the YP , FH and GSH. No 250,000 micro- GSF for LNP - it gets full sized adult GSH and advanced stocker SMB.

Soon you can catch your own SMB and do your best Bob imitation like this :

Wow, I missed this update as well. A belated congratulations on your fish stocking Bski!

Sunil declares:

Finally...I can proudly proclaim, with head held high, that I am now a card-carryin' BISAn. None of that kooky, stupid GSA handshake, decoder ring stuff...right?
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Yes, but I don't have, nor plan on, a feeder. 50 of 'em in a 5 ac pond might be tuff to round up and expect hand-cast pellet results from an absentee landlord....I think.
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Dski says fish-guy said 4" - 5"
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Ewest, the consummate PB cheerleader that can find victory within any defeat, adds:

ssshhhh....you forgot to mention the 1300 fingerling RES that snuck in last spring. I expect Lincoln NE will check in soon to warn of any impending danger.
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Thanks JHAP...I mean...you are really JHAP, right? No S-A (street jargon for intellectual gluteous) remarks? No 300-word disclaimers that would require John Moschitta to speak in the last 6 seconds of a 30 second Hidden Pond Ranch dressing commercial? Just who are you...and what have you done with Jeff? This might explain the empty pod we found inside the ghillie suit propped up against JHAP's mailbox.

You might be pleasantly surprised at what fish show up for feed even if hand feeding sporadically.

agreed.....i've never seen such small SMB, its cool they have the same war stripes as the grownups..

What Brettski didn't realize at the time (or Donna-ski I should say), is that those smallies looked that way because they were collective bargaining with Donna-Ski prior to entering the pond.

Trust me, they won't sign anything without full vision & dental.

Yep that's still me posting. I'm sort of like the candy bars....

... sometimes I feel like a nut.....


... sometimes I don't....

Well, it's been awhile, and I finally took the first sampling from the pond. I took the easy route; I used a minnow trap. I had a slice of stale bread, so I took Cody's advice and broke 3 chunks off of it and placed them inside the cage. I walked the shoreline to find a spot that had minimal vegetation so it wouldn't disappear into the weeds. I found an area about 5' wide that was bare, then random vegetation beyond the perimeter. I tossed the minnow cage into about 2-1/2 feet of water...maybe 3' tops. 3 hours later, 3 fish and one big ol' BF tadpole.

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I dunno....Perch?

You'll be picking up a fishing rod in no time, Bski.

What all did you stock again?? I recall SMB and YP as predators...what about forage?

Spring 2007 = 60# FH + 800 4" - 5" YP + 1300 2" RES + 250 papershell crayfish
Spring 2008 = 20# GS + 50 4" - 5" SMB

Redears, Bski.

I think that they are Redear. At that size you should be able to tell the difference between Redear and Bluegill based on the eartab. A Bluegill would have an eartab. Those fish have almost no eartab.

The vertical bars look very similar as well.

Would 1 year old Redear spawn?

If you stocked them as fingerlings last spring, then they are more than 18 months old. Right? They should spawn at 4 inch length. BTW, you wont catch many RES in a trap in shallow water so it is not representative of the population. Try putting the trap in a more fishy looking place near some weeds or brush and see if you dont get some fatheads.

I think it's a whole lot more likely than they only grew 1/2" in 14-15 months.

The original stockers could have easily grown from 2" to 6" last year - that's big enough for (some) to spawn this year. Awful good growth for the 2008 YOY. I'm not 100% convinced either way - maybe 90% a new spawn, 10% really crappy growth.

Yep, they were fingerlings 14 months ago. If these are the offspring of that stocking, about when did they hatch?
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The sampling area was surrounded by alot of vegetation...fishy looking.
I have been seeing FH cruising in small packs of 25 or so around the dock.

I'll bet Theo is right. This is the original stockers and they were really only 1 - 2" inventory in May 2007. Nothing else really adds up.

How thick were they, Bski?

Really great condition - superb 2008 YOY growth.
Thin condition - slow growing original stockers.

maybe 3/8", definitely more than 1/4".
I just reviewed the pics we took from the May 2007 stocking. The dipnet shot of 8 RES fingerlings showed mostly 1" - 1.5" and then there was a very large one; maybe 2 1/2". Mixed stock? If yes, the larger specimens might have been able to spawn last year...?

Calling Student Moderator. I agree that the sizes of these are possibly too big for this springs spawners. Plus you stocked a large number. Could very well be slow growth. Especially in a new pond, not many crustateans to go around.
Also, if they came for the bread, they may be pretty hungry.

I would think that there would be plenty of food for last year's Redear. Sixty pounds of fatheads would produce ten's of thousands of fry.

No way did those RES spawn last year.

Chris how good are itty-bitty RES at catching itty-bitty FHM? I'm maybe gonna find out this year, with adult Redears.

I have no idea, Theo.

I would think that 2" Redears would be able gorge themselves on Fathead fry(<12mm in length).

Almost 100% of the time you will see accelerated growth of lepomids in a brand new pond.

I'd almost bet my last dollar that those aren't the original stockers.

Just my opinion, and I can't say when those were spawned, but I have YOY redears that are 1-1.25 inches right now, and I'm as far north as you, right? If that happened in my pond, I would think that your bigger, newer pond has a great chance to have 2008 class fish that are over an inch. It is almost August, after all. I'll bet you have an unbelievable invertebrate profile. Very few bigger sunfish to crop off the bigger adult invertebrates.

...and those are definitely redears.

I had 1.25 inch RES in an aquarium and fed them FH fry. They did eat the smallest fry I put in which were about 3/8 inches long. There was one 1.75 inch RES and it ate the slightly larger fry.

I stocked the first RES into my pond in late March and they averaged 1.25 - 1.5 inches. The FH were spawning at the time and continued to spawn for many weeks. I've been able to observe these stockers very well lately because they're on beds in very shallow water. I estimate they're 3 - 4 inches now.

\

The only other fish besides the RES fingerlings and the FH are 24 adult RES stocked from good ol' Mr H's pond this spring. They began spawning about the time the FH spawn slowed down and are still at it. There has pretty much been a constant supply of fry in the pond since the small RES went in.

I stand corrected. I now remember that the pond took some time to fill; it then wasn't stocked for a while. Sunil, myself and others had to practically cyber-beat him to get the fatheads stocked. So, as usual, Bruce would be correct that the critters have had plenty of time to become abundant. Brettski, I cant remember if you seeded the pond with grass or left some grass and stumps, etc. I will re-visit your construction documentary.
I also dont know about the other species stocked; do they eat invertabrates much, or mostly fish? Would they possibly have spawned earlier with no BG?

Last year, we had a very good amount of weeds and cover growth along most of the shoreline. Also, since the water was 3 -4 feet short of pool last year, there is a very long/narrow hump in the middle of the pond (about 1/4 ac) that was shallow enough for heavy weed growth. This year, same thing (uncertain of the now fully submerged at 7' deep hump...?), but the flooded timber area and other new shallows have provided outstanding cover.
Would the RES spawn in the sand beach? If yes, it was well underwater since this last Feb and directly adjacent to the shallows and flooded timber.

How does one determine when RES would spawn?
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Bruce adds

Assuming you're not calling me a spineless weenie, you mean snails...right?
I never seeded for snails. Water started collecting July of 2006. If you build it, will they come anyway?

Brettski, I hope my post above didn't come across as bragging.



PS. It probably was bragging, but I hope it didn't come across that way. If you want to swap your magnificent pond for my little mud hole just say the word. Anyway, what's the point of having a pond if you can't boast about the successes?

...it ain't bragging if you can do it

Thanks Brettski, but I didn't do much. Any successes I have now should be chalked up to good luck.

Those are not the original RES that were stocked if I had to lay money down.

Brettsker put 1,300 of them in a 5 acre plus pond. They've had plenty to eat.

It's time to get the rod out.

The YP might be 8" to 10" by now.

Man, time does fly.

I agree with Bruce. In a new pond you get big growth rates. An early spawn BG (2in. in May) stocked into a new pond may well spawn in Sept at 4 in. They are trying to fill the carrying capacity with there kind (a species survival method). RES have a growth rate like a BG so the same is likely. IMO those pics are of early spawn RES this year or late spawn last year , but are not the original stocked RES.

...a bit of an update
We made another weekend day trip yesterday to (what else?)...work. This day, though, was a bit different than all the others. We got a fish show.
As I always do, the first thing after pulling up is to go out on the dock, open the gate, and take a look. Our water visibility is pretty high. Definitely 4 feet, probably more. My eye was drawn down to the concrete boat launch by fairly large objects just below the surface. Hokey smokes; RES!
Since stocking 15 months ago, the only water activity we have really seen has been minnows, tadpoles, and a few turtles. Not today.
The sun was shining and the RES were just hanging, suspended in 2 - 3' of water over the concrete launch. The water temp over the launch is like a tepid bath; the concrete is a heat sink. There was probably 15 or so.
This is the part that REALLY surprised me. They were pretty danged big....at least they were in my little fish-world. Most all were easily 5" - 6". A couple could have been pushing 7". When I would move on the dock, a few might spook a little and move about, but they wouldn't leave. A few hours later, we broke for lunch and they were still there. I threw out a number of "pinches" of feed, right on top of their angry little heads. Nothing. They might quickly dart about 5 feet to another area, but no interest. Later in the day, same thing. In fact, when I waded in to take my bath at the end of the day, I could see a couple of them watching me as I stood there. If I didn't move, they wouldn't move; maybe 5 feet away....watching. 2 questions: why aren't they spooked....and....what are they thinking?
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Oh yeah, when we first saw them, and as I marveled at the growth (2" fingerling to 6" in 15 months), a school of 2 - 300 (or so...or more) fingerlings swam past and over the launch in a pretty tight pack. In the sun, the multiple vertical bars were easily identified. YP, me thinks. Cool.

To me fish appear to have different personalities. Usually fish of "like minds" seem to hang together. Some get used to seeing me around my pond because I'm there so often & don't spook. But I'm only seeing prob. 1% of the fish in my pond.

I found if I soak the FF & then squeeze the air out so it will sink someone will come & eat it. Others will see him chowing down & over time join in. Still others will just spook when the food hits the water. Eventually some will hit floating food.
There appears to be definite individualism going on with RE.

This story is so exciting it gave me a chill.

My experience says...from talking to countless people about such things, is that those RES were definitely bigger than 5 inches. I'll bet they were seven.

You're correct; they are angry--like Russian nesting dolls. They're watching all right...watching, judging...

This explains the YOY's you were seeing earlier, right? You had a spawn this year.

I knew what you were going to say about the pellets. There's too much to eat right now, but keeping the pellets handy is a good thing.

I'm glad your fish stocking buddies didn't bring BG in on that first haul.

I'm currious, how a Russian nesting doll reacts when it gets angry. Wait ... I've observed my RE .. Ok I got it.

B'ski those RES can be mean. Better be careful wading in around them - they may decided to attack.

I knew you would like watching the fish but I had no idea you were contemplating being a sacrificial offering for RES.

...fools rush in where angels fear to tread
(especially when they need a bath)

"Here comes the big one now. He clearly has the most meat on him. If we get just 5 minutes when the small one isn't looking, we can get him submerged and stashed under some of that plastic structure he built. We'll have plenty of sustenance all Winter long!"

I bet the RES are bigger than you thought, too, Brettski. Redears always strive to appear 2"-3" shorter than they really are, so as to seem small and weak. Then, when you're not paying attention, WHAM!

grrrr!!!
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Watching...waiting......judging.

That's awesome!!!!!

I actually think that I can tell those fish are in nice body condition. They look to be really thick.

The water clarity must be a testimony to your good planning. I'm jealous.

Don't give up on the feed yet!

That video is awesome.

Where are the smallies?

It's time to start fishing.

Brettsker is going to need someone to help him get started on the right foot with hook & line.

Nice fish. They looked great. See any small ones. Those RES should have spawned. See any big YP ?

The only small RES would be the (apparent) YOY pics/text that I posted earlier in this thread.
Nope, no big YP yet. They wouldn't be crazy enough to dis' the RES Bloods and cross onto their turf. If you turn up the volume on the vid clip, you can faintly here "Yellow Perch....come out to Play-ay"

I knew The Warriors had to be required viewing for the read ear sunfish.

If you had a Corona Reef like Dwight, you woulda heard beer bottles clinking together as well.

Don't underestimate those YP. When the water gets cold those YP will run circles around those morbid RES.

TORPEDOES OFF THE STARBOARD SIDE!!!
The concrete launch and dock/deck continue to draw very good fish activity. Today was another first. Fat, long fish. I gotta assume that they were YP...? About a dozen or so were hanging out with the RES. They were 9" long, easily...maybe 10". They stayed in the shade of the deck roof most of the time, but would occassionally venture out into the sunlight. I could not discern any vertical bars, but I can't honestly say that I got a REAL good look. It's gotta be the YP...right? It can't be the SMB...no way. I put in the YP 15 months ago at about 5" long. I put in the SMB 4 months ago at 5"....no way it was SMB. SMB wouldn't socialize like that...would they?

as far as growth potential it definitely could be smb....they can be really aggressive and i could easily see them cruising the new waters of yer pond in packs...

love the maturation process here...sunil said it first....it'l take hook & line bski......pics...we love pics....especially love fish pics

little jig head, bit o worm...crushed barb of course.....get after it my man....

Brettski,
I couldn't tell you one way or the other in regards to the schooling, but I stocked my SMB in late May @ 5-7", and right now they are between 11-12". So, the growth potential is definately possible.

I KNOW it's SMB! That's exactly their mo. They travel in loose wolf packs & mix with the RE in my pond with ease.

It seems so unlikely that it would be the smallies. We only stocked 50 of 'em this past spring. Accounting for a few casualties due to predation, how would 10 or 12 of them "find each other to hang out" in a 5 ac pond?

OK, how 'bout this angle (ooops; pun)
Based on shape and or physical body characteristics, what would be the major, notable differences between similarly sized YP and SMB?
(edit; I just flipped back and forth between a couple good on-line pics of SMB and YP. The fish I watched were in about 30" of very clear water, albeit shaded from the sun. I expect that I would have quickly noted the bars of a YP....I could not see anything like that. Based on the pics I just examined, every bit of what I saw says SMB. ...still can't believe it)

I've observed that when the SMB are smaller, say 5-8" long, they tend to form rat packs (granted this could be their disposition to singing and dancing on the silver screen).

Great report Brettsker!

I'm excited for you, Bski!

Also jealous and anxious to fast-forward a pond by a year or two.

10/4/08 SAMPLING
My pal Phil and his wife Donna are avid fisher-folk. They have not yet visited the LNP project, so I felt this gorgeous October day would be a good time to talk them into bringing down their fishing boat and gear and help me do a sampling.
We picked up a couple dozen nightcrawlers on the way and dropped his boat in at the launch around 11 a.m., bright sunny day. His wife Donna caught 2 YP on crawlers and Phil pulled in a SMB casting a jig.
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Some comparative history...
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YP May '07

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YP Oct '08 (17 months later)


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...and


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SMB May '08 (about 5" long)

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SMB Oct '08 (5 months later)


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SMB caught on

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Phil had a scale, but it wasn't much for minimum incremental accuracy. The divisions were in 1/4# increments. The YP checked at 1/4# and SMB checked at 3/4#. I wouldn't hang my hat on these figures.

But, how did YOU do???

zip

The ole Mr. Twister beetle spin in chartreuse and or black w/ chartreuse. It will be a killer on all species. Man, those are some thick fish!

That is fantastic! Great growth on the smallies.

Way to go Brettski!

You're gonna have a smallie spawn next year I bet.

Those are really beautiful fish. Nice job.

one lil fishy,
two lil fishy,
three lil fishy four,
once you catch one
you gonna watch catch more.


beautiful fish b'ski.

edit.......oh yes, i almost forgot to ask........were you and yer buddy fishing blind, or did you throw around at all that beautiful structure......the trench? sunil's mound?

some more details my man...
where were they hangin out?

Great job B'ski !!!! Those are good looking fish - just like the rest of LNP - well done.

Do you still see any FH around ?

It will be babies next spring/summer. Get ready to take some spawning/yoy pics so we can join in as proud vicarious parents.

...glad ya asked, Dave
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His boat is a nice little package. We tooled around with the trolling motor; no petrol intervention.


He has 2 separate depth finders/transponders; one fore, one aft. As we slowly moved about, I sat aft and was able to watch both screens and see the changes as they occurred from 2 different points of measure. It was very rewarding to watch the subtle and significant changes as a result of our attention to bottomscaping when we excavated. This reward goes directly back to the PB forum for guidance during construction. My pal, Phil, does a fair amount of fishing in the nort' woods of Minnesota + other various midwest locations. He was VERY impressed by the constantly changing depths, ditches, mounds, and holes. He often referred to marking fish with the depth finder. After showing me what to look for, I will agree.
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Although we marked fish in numerous places, he kept coming back to the monster holes in the foreground of the above pic as holding the highest inventory. The pond is down about 18"; the deepest depth reading we got was 16'. When we built it, the laser-shot elevations peg the monster holes at 18' - 20', so we were pretty close to hovering over the deepest points. We worked them with no results.
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Now...let's talk PVC trees.
Phil is sold. This is where the action was. I can already foresee him loading up his boat with PVC pipe on his next run up to Minny.
All 3 fish were caught within the PVC reef (the line of 6 PVC trees, flanked by a tire pyramid at each end).

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Phil did most of the casting. He noted hits fairly often and became very focused on pulling the lure thru the reef. Both YP were caught directly adjacent to a PVC tree there, also.
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Dski and I did nothing more than to re-acquaint ourselves by fishing with worm and bobber. Neither of us got action, but that's OK. The fact that we picked up and used open face reel equipment after so many years was documented as a successful day for us. Dski picked up handling the reel and bail thing v quickly.

Yep, FH are still happening (or maybe we're seeing offspring of the 20# of G shiners stocked 5 months ago...?). We see small packs (all the way down to fry-size) all the time.
We have also seen substantial packs of YOY YP.

I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Great, great, great results.

Me too Sunil. Great post Brettski. Interesting observations about your various types of structure and cover. Between your PVC reef and the the Porquipine Fish Attractor video that Nate posted it seems like that type of structure is great to add to a pond.

Keep fishing Brettski. The first time you hook and land one of your own fish you'll be amazed at how rewarding it is.

Good stuff.

FANTASTIC!!!

Great to see the YP have already spawned.

Fishing will be much, much better once the pond has filled up with offspring SMB/YP/RES. Right now, you've got slim pickings, just the original stockers. Imagine 10 to 100 times as many fish to catch - that's how the action will be a 1-2 years.

BTW GREAT looking Perch and Smallie.

Thank you, gents. I really enjoy taking you guys there with me, if only as a cyber-visit. It's been a collective mind operation, implemented thru my back and credit line. D-ski's also. I really hope that Cody will be able to download this page (potential difficulty = pics divided by dial-up). His thought process and endless giving of time and guidance was a leader on this project.
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Phil and Donna were simply amazed at how "clean and healthy" the specimens were. When I told him that I was counting on them to help me "manage the pond" by fishing it, I could see the wheels turning.
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I wonder what these same fish will look like next year?
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...JHAP notes

Absolutely affirmative, Jeff. Our clarity continues to be good; about 3 feet. Remembering that the pond is down by about 18" right now, the tops of the PVC trees were still about 12" - 18" below the surface and easily seen, even from 8-10 feet away. Even the tops of the black tires could be seen when up close, appearing as a dark shadow of their outline under the surface. Cool!

Conratulations, BSki! It sure is rewarding to finally see the fruits of your labor. If you get a chance, try to fish with a golden shiner instead of a nightcrawler, with your rig. I've been having excellent luck, out my way ,with that set up in the last couple of weeks. If you can cast net them out your pond, then you don't have to worry about introducing any unwanted species (which may happen if bought from a bait shop). If you try fishing with minnows, just make sure you are using circle hooks. I made the mistake yesterday of using a straight shank worm hook with a shiner, and ended up having a SMB mort due to a swallowed hook . It was a very sad day for me.

...btw, there is a dark cloud on this sampling procedure.
The first YP inhaled the hook and worm. Even tho the barb was crushed and Phil has good experience with removal, it was buried. He asked me if I wanted to cut the hook and leave it or try for a v low percentage of survival. I told him to pull it out. Floater. The silver lining is that both Dski and I needed to have this happen to bolster the deliniation between sport/food and pets. I think I felt worse knowing what I put into getting it to that point, as opposed to killing a pet. We're good with it, particularly knowing it will provide another link in the food cycle. Yeah, I know...kinda dopey, but it's just the way it is.
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Would it have been better, in the big picture, to have cut the hook and let it go?

It could have gone either way, Bski.

I am always pulling some fish out to eat; conversely, there are some that I want to see get as big as possible. Unless a foul-hooked fish that might have a chance is in the latter category, I go ahead and pull it out.

If there is a lot of bleeding, especially from the gills, the fish is a goner and might as well come out.

You will get experience watching "probably not gonna make its" that you release float up afterwards, and maybe even get to see some ones you cut the line on and released with the hook still in get recaught later and be AOK (I have had this happen 2-3 times). It gives you a better feel for which way to go in these situations.

BTW, that's really good growth on the new fish - I just had to say it (again).

That happens regularly to us at my Dad's pond.

YP are probably quicker to swallow the hook than any other fish I'm aware of.

My Dad and I think YP is the best eating of all, so we keep a five gallon bucket handy. If we take out a hook on a questionable fish he goes in the bucket. You'll know generally in 15 minutes if the fish has any chance of survival, i.e., he's still swimming in the bucket.

YP tolerate low O2 extremely well, in particular if the water isn't too hot, so if a "to be released" fish spends some time in a five gallon bucket with two gallons of water they're not the worse for wear.

It they start floating or struggling, it's straight to the frying pan.

Bski - I saw the before and after photos, your stocking and pond experiences show what can be done in growing YP and SMB when it is done correctly. Good job.

As far as sampling goes, I have found that if swallowing the hook is a problem one can switch to a larger hook No 4 or even a No 2 or switch to minnows for bait for YP and SMB. However the larger hooks do bias the catch results toward larger fish if records are being kept. When these fish (YP-SMB) take a minnow there is a little more handling time involved before swallowing compared to worms. I caught 11 perch yesterday for removal and transfer using minnows under a bobber - none swallowed the hook.

Since you under stocked the pond regarding numbers, catching will improve greatly in a couple years as the new recruits grow to fill the carrying capacity of the new pond. New recruits should also grow well since lots of forage items are present. Once carrying capacity is reached expect growth rates to be somewhat reduced due to a limiting or availability of forage foods.

Again good job, your pond seems to be doing well so far. Did you get a chance to set a fish trap while at the pond?

Thank you, Maestro Cody (Sunil; if you please). Any successes achieved are the results of heeding the guidance of my teachers.
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I did not throw out the minnow trap this time. The events of the day were timed tight and designed to provide other entertainment functions. The trap will see action during another near-future day trip to LNP.
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A little side note, speaking of entertainment. As we broke for a late lunch at the picnic table inside the screen tent in the woods at pond-side, we watched a half dozen wild turkeys work across the building pad, foraging thru the grasses. A nice natural bonus for the day.

I have read most of the posts on your pond journey Brettski, this is my favorite update. Congrats on your success and I hope the future holds even more of it for you, very nice lake and very nice fish. This is the kind of stuff that keeps the rest of us motivated. Thanks for the pictures.

Joe

I think more people feel this way than will admit to it Brettski. I know JWHAP and I sure do. (pssst don't tell anyone but so does DIED). To this day everything that I have caught on my pond I have released. Next year we will begin culling fish and part of me does not look forward to it. We found a large bullhead floating in our pond this past year and were kinda bummed. It's all part of the cycle of owning a pond. JWHAP was fairly opposed to culling fish until we went to the Pond Boss Conference and she learned the benefit and necessity of fish culling. She freely admits that this was a huge benefit of attending the conference.

Congratulations on the experience. It sounds like you had a great day on your property.

The next additions should be HSB and Walleye.

They will coexist very nicely with everything you've got going on right now.

Bump - great thread to review. BTW B'ski its time to get ready to get us some pics of those SMB spawning.

I agree! I'd like to see Brettsker catch some of those smallies!

When would I be looking for SMB spawning activity?
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Through last year, the Polyvinylphibian saucers were impossible to see due to shoreline vegetation and their depths vs water clarity. The loads of stone under the dock (Sunil prompt) should be excellent for Smallie voyeurism. The load of stone at the other end of the pond along the shoreline might be "viewable" also.

I think the water temps will need to be getting to the upper 50's before a spawn happens, but you might start to see smallies selecting bed sites sooner.

Do you have a bait store nearby to LNP?

We've got to get some minnow fishing done for YP and SMB.

When the water consistently holds in the upper 50's you'll see males starting to act "nestish".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about those smallie spawn temps.

Can't correct someone if they're right silly!

Sunil is definitely right silly.

I hadn't seen your post CB! Thanks.

Sunil, do your SMB naturally reproduce in your pond?

Yes, they do. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling deep down.

HAHA, did you build nests for them or were they able to get it on, with what nature naturally gave them?

...like Sunil would manually induce SMB reproduction. There's a mental picture for ya.

Now I need brainwashing.

I've done a lot of structure work over the years, and a good amount with manual placement of rocks. Talk about a labor of love shucking stone. I feel with rock, you can never do enough though.

The places I've seen smallies spawn have not been the areas I've made though. There are a lot of rockish areas and the one area where I saw a few different locations of smallies on bed were on a kind of thin rock ledge, maybe a 1' to 2.5' lip that runs along a long edge of my pond. The depth of that lip runs from 6" to 2' depending on the level of the pond. In the spring it's usually 1.5' to 2' deep. It is all over hung with brush and not easy to stand by on land due to a steep grade.

It's the shoreline behind me and to the left.


One year, I saw two smallies maybe 17-19" long on a bed together with a longer LMB in the bed right in between them; they were all squeezed onto this ledge. A few bluegill kept darting in from the adjacent deep water and and swiping eggs from the nest.

Actually, that shoreline behind me in the pic is not really representative. Where I've seen these beds, you couldn't even be on shore due to too much thick brush.

Sounds like a unique pond you have... So you have both LMB and SMB in there and both are holding their numbers?

SMB spawning occurs in water that is 16-22°C (60-68 F). Just a few degrees cooler than LMB (but you noted that when you said " I saw two smallies maybe 17-19" long on a bed together with a longer LMB in the bed right in between them").
.

It's really too soon to tell if the SMB and LMB are both thriving together.

We're in our 11th year of owning this pond which had existing populations of LMB, Bluegill, Black Crappie, Yellow Perch, Bullheads, and other rough fish like white suckers.

I believe the pond had a 'natural balance' until I started messing with it about 6 years ago (after finding Pond Boss!).

Now we have:
1) LMB
2) SMB
3) HSB
4) BG
5) BC
6) YP
7) Walleye
8) CC (although I haven't ever caught or seen one)
9) Bullheads
10) Trout (some may have held over; RB, Brook, & Brown)
11) Rock Bass
12) Grass Carp (maybe)
** Still have rough fish like suckers plus fatheads & shiners.

I might be forgetting some also.

I think the biggest fish in there now are the SMB and the HSB, and maybe some lunker/lurker type CC.

Largest LMB I've ever seen caught was 22" and that was maybe 8-10 years back.

I don't believe that I have overpopulations of LMB.

Dang Sunil, you have got the pond you and I would like... Ya never know what is gonna be on the end of your line!

You must have a pretty substantial feeder creek if you are getting white suckers to reproduce in your pond... White suckers are an excellent forage fish, the walleye will really like them. Keystone has just about any kinda fish you could want, so I am sure John gets you what you want.

With as forested as the shoreline around your pond seems to be and particularly if you have a spring fed stream feeding it and some decent depth to your pond, there is a good chance some trout may hold over. Brook trout might struggle, but rainbows have a good chance and the browns have a great chance.

I have to believe there are some CC in there. Particularly if you stocked them at a larger size to begin with. One day a 25 lbs albino CC is gonna end up on the end of your line!

Any thoughts on RES for the pond? You're a bit north, but I think they would still do well. There is a farm pond I used to fish in Blair County which is just north of Somerset that has a healthy population of RES.

Another forage fish you might wanna consider is banded killifish. I know Keystone sells them. They are much more predator resistant as compared to FHM. Another fish is closely related to FHM and is called a bluntnose minnow. They look very similar but IMO they survive predation much better. They are probably the most common species of fish in the eastern United States. They will do quite well in your lake. The problem is, there aren't any local commercial sources for them. However, they're all over the creek behind out hunting cabin and many of the streams and lakes down here in VA.

When I say Bluegill, I mean all bluegill-type fish. For instance, I know we have pumpkinseed.

We get water from springs, run-off, and a strong flowing year-round creek, so the waters stay a little cooler, but not so cold that you can't swim in the summer.

When you are swimming, you'll pass through ribbons of cold water.

Yeah, I would almost bet your pond would hold at least brown trout. Trout just don't compete well with bass and the like in ponds.

Pumpkinseeds are pretty, RES will usually out compete them.

You must have one heck of an emergency spillway and over flow system with a year round creek feeding the pond.

Do you have problems with the locals poaching the pond with you not living there?

Poaching, yes, we have issues. It seems everytime you get the locals in check, a new crop shoots up. These days, the hunting-poaching might be worse than the fishing.

The water inflow set up is unusual. There is a creek adjacent to the longside of the pond separated by an abandoned RR track berm.

We have a damn on the creek and just upstream of the damn, in the pool created by the damn, there is a 4' culvert that goes under the RR berm directly into our pond.

Further downstream in the creek, there's another smaller culvert that is the outflow.

Water level is controlled by the height of the damn which is a sandbag contraption.

Sounds interesting... How many acres of land do you own? My father and I have a never ending battle keeping trespassers off our 50. I can't even imagine what it would be like with a nice fishing pond on it. I don't think the locals figured out we stock trout...

75 acres which includes the 6-7 acre BOW.

Sounds like you found a little heaven on earth! Does anyone in your family hunt or do you just like to watch the wildlife and not eat it? HAHA

None of us are really hunters. Frankly, I don't even clean fish. I prefer to catch fish that I can lip-hold.

OK, I'm a wuss.

Be careful with those walleye then and definitely don't put any tiger musky, chain pickerel or northern pike in there!

If you ever visit me in VA I'll take you out on the Chesapeake Bay, lip a bluefish and tell me what happens... HAHA

...time for a little update
We took a day off from labor at the pond project cuz my brother and his family were nearby and wanted to visit LNP. I knew he would bring the kids, so I dug out some old cheapie fishing kits I purchased 6 years ago when we had the river place. You know the kit: Zebco junk in a plastic adult-proof wrapper with a tiny parts box for a tackle box and an assortment of tiny fishing stuff....all for under $10. Yeah, that kit. I have 2 of them and I put the kids on it with worms. His son caught one of the original stocker SMB and his daughter caught a YP. The YP was a little smaller than the stock we caught last year so I am guessing that it might be F2...?
I was unprepared for these catches, so the pics are lousy and the measurement non-existant. In fact, the YP swallowed the dang hook (again), but I think Mr Needlenose and I might have gotten it out without too much damage cuz he swam away briskly. Who knows.
In my hand, he didn't feel scrawny or look scrawny, but this pic kinda makes it look a little stunted. ???

I measured the distance across my palm; it's 3.5".
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My brother got the only pic of the Smallie. You should'a seen my nephew's eyes (12 years old) while he was hauling it in. When it got close enough to shore to see how big it was, you would have thought he landed a whale the way his face lit up....and it wasn't all that big. He couldn't stop talking about how hard it was fighting. It was a riot watching him crank it in! When I get a copy of the pic, I'll post it.
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Finally, what fish is this? We are seeing scads of fry all the way around the pond...scads! I think they are either FH or GSH. Every once in awhile, I will see one of these cruising in their midst. It is about 2.5" long. It stands out because of the light yellow-ish band around the back end of the body, just in front of the tail. It moves forward like a tiny missile...when it wants to. What is it?

That is a juvenile smallmouth.

He's cool, but he's not having as good a time as the juvenile humans.

I am glad to finally got to sit back, relax and take in the beauty of all your hard work. Sounds like the kids really enjoyed themselves. What a special treat...

Juvenile SMB are so pretty with their crazy colored tails... Even spotted bass have a similar tail. I am sure he is loving all the baby FHM and GSH to eat!

I suspected and hoped that to be the case, but did no want to get my hopes up. I have seen quite a number of them all the way around the pond, near the shore. I can sense "attitude" as I watch them slowly work along the shoreline. I swear I could hear bottles clinking together...

"Brettttt-ski! Come out and Play-ay!"

oh yeah, and another thing...
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We were all sittin' on the covered dock to get out of the sun. This is where the kids started fishin'. They would just cast out and they did get a couple of nibbles. I was getting concerned that there would be no fish action when it dawned on me....
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I told them to follow me; we're going to Theo's Cluster. Huh? (I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier....how could anyone summarily forget Theo's Cluster?) Anyway, the action at T-C was ON! Man, you couldn't keep the worms on the hooks. I have it marked with a duck decoy, so you know when you're into Theo's Cluster. (sloop-flup). In fact, when my nephew hooked into the smallie, he landed his cast right next to the duck and the bobber didn't even level off before WHAMMO.
Bottom line: the tire pyramid and PVC tree cluster is a freakin' magnet

Looks like things are coming along nicely at the LNP...

They YP isn't bulging fat, but looks like a healthy YP that isn't pellet fed. It may be a he, and boy YP don't get to be so chubby.

Any decision on stocking WE or HSB yet?

The movie Warriors is required viewing for all juvie smallies. It's part of where their cynical attitude comes from especially regarding humans. The unfortunate next phase of training for them is collective bargaining. One word of advice...they never budge on getting Rosh Hashanah off as a paid holiday. Go figure...

I can't wait to see a pic of the smallie.

The perch does look a tad thin in the gut, but might it have been post spawn? I know that they should have spawned much earlier in the year.

It might be time to consider forage base especially now that you recruiting smallies. Great feeling, isn't it?

That was a lot of fun for you and the family --- YES ! You should be very proud and satisfied !!!

Every one of the things you designed and worked so hard on worked as planned. The fish , the dock , the structure and the water all in harmony. My question is how was the swimming ?

ok....been about a year without any type of update, and this post won't be much of one either. I just had to share it with ya's.
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We are up to ears in building our garage/apartment at the pond project and I just had a lousy day on the job. We are spending Sat-Sun and Saturday was one of those days when I could do nothing right. I was a little bummed.
Sunday morning, up with the sun (per usual), coffee, some TV junk and news, and I went out to follow Ewest's instruction: take some time to kick back, absorb, and reflect. So, I'm sitting on the dock, the sun has just come over the trees and the water is illuminated. It hasn't poured rain for a few days, so I have about 3 - 4 feet of clarity. With my cup of coffee in hand, I pull my folding chair up to the edge of the dock and peer down into the water. I can see the rocks and stuff pretty good; the water is about 30" deep where I sit. OK, there's a smaller RES; maybe 5 or 6". Whoa, either that's a YP or a smallie; looks to be about 10" long. Then it happened. A submarine cruised thru, about 12 - 18" deep. It was a SMB that was, conservatively 15" long...and pretty danged fat. I was blown away. When I say 15", that's leaning very conservative. Seriously, it might have been 17" or 18" long. Let's put it this way...I would chamber a round if I dragged it in on a line.
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I was blown away. It was a VERY nice gift and helped me forget all about my lousy Saturday.

So, when are you going to start wetting a line?

Very good growth for at least a few of your SMB. Now do you see the benefit of proper stocking of forage fish first? You should have had good YP and SMB spawns this spring. Any evidence of young'ens from 2010?

Oddly, I have not seen one cray since we seeded 3 years or so ago. We do have gazillions of fry, whether they are YP or FH or GSH...I don't know for sure, but I believe it is FH. The entire shoreline is ripe with American pond weed and another similar vegetation. It runs out to about 3 feet deep and is loaded with these smaller fish.

Proof that life is unfolding as it should and goes on even when things go bad. B'ski now you know one reason for the enjoy rule.

I just got done reading this whole thread and WOW what an amazing read it was! So much great information and documented very well! Just wanted to express my thanks to everyone that commented on this thread for teaching me so much as I dive into the world of pond management!

Brettski, how are things going at the LNP?

I have a handle (for the most part) on everything above the waterline. I have virtually no idea about what lies below. This has become an experiment in careful stocking with absolutely no management thereafter.

I will help work on your cabin if you let me fish.

SHOOTIN' FISH IN A BARREL
Update time...
Many of you know that we used some care when planning and stocking our new pond. Since that time, it has remained largely unattended and allowed to mature entirely on it's own with very, very little sampling and virtually no culling in any form. Why? Mostly because I just don't have the time. When we go to our LNP project, we are there to work.
This past weekend was a little different.
My niece and nephew were in with their Mom this past weekend from Idaho. The kids had one plan; fishing Uncle Brettski's pond. I have a couple of cheapie $15 combo rod/reels, some hooks and bobbers and sinkers. They were only able to visit for a few hours, so time was tight. A dozen nightcrawlers later and they had a freakin' blast.
I don't know what elements came into play, but Uncle Brettski was runnin' nonstop removing fish, hooking worms, re-tying new hooks, and measuring fish. It was unbelieveable...there was no rest. It wasn't unusual for the line to hit the water and 5 seconds later the bobber was submerged. I got to the point that I would nip off about 1" of nightcrawler and it would still drive 'em wild. Yeah, we were all gettin' a rush. The kids cuz they were pulling out fish like crazy and me cuz the product they were catching looked pretty damned good.
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There was alot of YP. Most were 11"; a few were 12".
A couple of RES were hooked, but they were small; maybe 5".
The coolest was a pretty good supply of SMB.
All of them were hammering a small piece of nightcrawler hanging 3' below a bobber on a #4 hook.










The Smallies were typically 10" - 12". It's nice to see recruitment as it matures. I don't have a scale, so measurements were all we got. I ain't no expert, but you guys have shown me enough pics to know when a fish is hurtin' for food. All these fish looked plump and healthy.
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Then my nephew got a hit that bent the rod so far that I thought his eyes would pop outta his head. It was very cool. When the fish broke the surface and jumped into the air, I thought he was gonna soil himself. I don't have a net either, so all I could do was stand at the shore and beach it. It quickly wiggled off the crushed barb and I had to try and grab it before it flopped down the bank and into the water. Yeah, I suppose Uncle Brettski's heart was pumpin' a bit more than normal. We took a couple of pics and tried to calm it down long enough to measure.



I think the dirt bath musta doubled his attitude, cuz when I got him to the water, he shot outta my hands like a missile.

(edit) I must also point out that all this action occurred at Theo's Cluster. When the pond was nothing more than a dirt hole and we were bustin' butt tryin' to lay in some sorts of habitat and structure, Theo told me to make sure and put something within casting distance of shore. Theo's Cluster was born, made of a truck tire pyramid surrounded by 3 PVC trees, all marked with a duck decoy about 25 feet from shore. The thing is a fish magnet

Man, that is sweet!!

I love it when the results exceed the expectations....

quick history of Smallies...


May '08 stocking, about 5" long



assuming the following, recent catch is one of the 50 original stockers shown above....
3 years, one month later; zero management...

Great update. Lack of fishing pressure sure does make a tremendous difference in fish catchability. Thanks for the update. Correct stocking and good habitat does make a differernce.

Look's like you'll have a great place to fish when the house work is finally done.

Take a bow, Bill. You were the mad "stocking" scientist for this project.

Nothing like a well executed plan. I am glad we got a have fun post to go with all the house building !!!!!!

The fish look good.

Great report.

I've always lamented that Brettski doesn't fish his pond.

It may be time to consider some Smallie removal. I might need to commission Rainman to come to your pond and fish out some smallies to take to my pond. Then again, Rainman is not so great of of a fisherman, so I'd have to come also.

You could make a few bucks off of me.

Sunil - a man with your means should think about building a small pond for growing smallies or other desirable fish for resocking into your larger pond. I think you could manage two ponds, based on your management skills and prowess that we see at the PBoss Conventions.

Be sure to tell Rex to leave his guns in the truck. He might try to shoot one of B'ski's m-rats and hit the big windows instead.

Wow Uncle Brettski, the fish look great. I'll bet the relatives were surprised to see the progress you have made on the building!

My sis in-law was disappointed that it wasn't completed
Me too, I guess

Hand the SIL a hammer (or some other construction implement) and have her give it a try. Most folks have no idea what it takes to build a complete structure from the ground up like you have Uncle Brettski.


Oh BTW from now on you're Uncle Brettski to me.

so long as I don't have to read you a bedtime story and tuck you in
(the mental picture I just got makes me shiver)

Okay, no tuck in but the bedtime story is not negotiable.

Careful what you wish for, JHAP.

Brettski can spin a very, very disturbing story.

That's why we don't hear from Fattay anymore.

I appreciate the advice Sunil but I have a thicker skull than FMB so Bski's stories don't have the same effect on me. Besides I can negate the effect by telling him a few of my stories.

I can see - errr hear it now – neoprene cod piece comes to LNP - what a story that would be. --

Yep but Uncle Brettski is too smart to give me any form of directions to his place.

Heck at least Sunil would let me stay in his shed.

In Brettski's defense though I guess there is an viable argument that he does have a nature preserve and I've been told on more than one occasion that there was something about my personality that just seemed to defy nature.

yet nothing worth preserving...

So it's been almost a year... Any recent fishing adventures to see how your fish are progressing? Those SMB may be pushing 20" by now!

I just read through this whole thread and it has given me a lot of hope and excitement for my just-stocked-with-fhm-and-gsh smallmouth pond. Awesome work!

Actually, it was very little work, but many thanks for the props. If any congrats for accomplished work are due, it goes to guys like Bill Cody, Ewest, Bruce Condello, Meadowlark, Theo Gallus, Sunil and DIED for the guidance and encouragement to lay the aquaculture groundwork. Unfortunately, we continue to be consumed with finishing the gar/apt project which leaves very little other time beyond just keeping up with property maintenance. Every year I say we're gonna do something special to get into the fishing end of it, and every year it gets put on the back burner.

Brettski - You been fishing in your pond this year? Is the water clear, cloudy, weedy, and any fish pics???

Hi Bill,
Sorry; missed your post until just now.
Zero fishing that I, or anybody that I know of, has been initiated. The only water sampling that occurs is visual, and that best sampling occurs at the covered dock where the depth is not more than 3 feet. Based on that, and wide landscape views over the surface, the water is consistently on the clear side, maybe about 3 feet visibility. Weeds are on the low side this year, but my water level is down about 26" so I figger they died off around the shoreline once they got exposed and the new zone for growth did not have previous weed growth, hence much less weeds at the shoreline created by this lower depth. Sorry, but no fish pics. There is hope, tho. Yesterday, one of my pals called and wants to come down to see the progress on my projects. He also fishes alot. I wonder what his real motive is...?

A YP dinner - which is a good thing.

Dski and I just hosted a few friends for lunch and some fishin'. It's been months; nay years since we took some decent samples.
The SMB were plentiful. Mostly 16" - 18" and chunky. I told everyone to keep pulling them out. A few hours and the collection basket got pretty crowded.
The surprising thing was a lack of YP. Then, the girls hit the jackpot and pulled out 2 pretty nice specimens. One was 13.5" and the other 14". They were not fat pigs, but not starving. The filets were pretty impressive. A dozen or so RES, but all in the 6" range. I have not seen an RES monster, or anything closely resembling large since they were stocked all those years ago.
Anyway this is the overdue update that I owe Dr Perca.

Nice work on the lake and fish !

I'd be willing to bet those largest YP are the stockers. The predators in the pond are keeping the YOY trimmed back. Time to do more fishing and removing if you want more growth and recruitment.

Great report on the fishery. I agree with esshup. Too many SMB predators are likely limiting the YP recruitment. It is a common occurrence. Also the angling method could have biased the catch toward more SMB. More weed habitat or fewer SMB will likely help produce more YP. The big YP appeared to be old males.

Agreed, and no mystery. You predicted this would likely occur way back when I stocked, particularly since you knew it would be unmanaged. You also noted that human-passive management of the SMB might be mitigated by adding the next top predator; Walleye. Every year I see numerous SMB fry and fingerlings, so annual recruitment is happening like clockwork. I also see YP egg strands every early spring. I cannot vouch for much of the RES activity, though I always see 5" -6" sunning over the sun-warmed concrete boat launch most of the year.
So, Dr Perca, your crystal ball was and is accurate. Do you want to take the WE step in the near future?

WE taste good !!!

Harvest of SMB will help. So would stocking a few adult YP.

The walleye will prey heavily on the YP since they frequent the same habitat. WE and YP go together like peanut butter and jelly. Do not depend on the WE to eat very many small bass. You will do more good for the current fish community balance to actively remove SMB. You are visually getting perch eggs & spawns, but too many smallies are hurting the recruitment. Larger perch may also be eating a few small perch. If you want some WE, I would first get the YP population back to the very common or abundant status then add a few WE. Keep in mind that each SMB can easily eat 225-260 forage fish per year which in your case is probably mostly small 2"-4" perch.

I wouldn't stock any adult perch until you first remove a significant number of SMB maybe 8-15/ac.

Looks like it's time to finally start fishing in earnest!

Now that the house is done, you can focus on SMB dinners.

** UPDATE SEPT 2016 **
Still totally unmanaged and rarely fished. We had what is becoming an annual gathering of close friends, 3 or 4 of which are avid fisher-folk. All the fishing was from the dock or the bank. Here are the findings.
The SMB appear very healthy. We pulled out numerous 16" - 18", all pretty chunky. The YP were less active, but we snagged one that came in just over 14" long. It was OK in girth, but nowhere near the size of the SMB. About 4 more YP that were closer to 10" - 11". During cleaning, large crayfish were found in one SMB and in the 14" YP. This is the first evidence I have seen of the cray population since seeding some 8 years ago (or so...I forget exactly how long).
The weeds in the pond have been getting progressively worse every year. Our water clarity is very good and we still get run-off from fertilized farm fields. The weeds and a somewhat lesser amount of FA are a concern; mostly the weeds. I will follow up with pics in the vegetation forum.

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Great update report about your fishery. Thanks for checking in. Nice dark color of the fish indicate clear water conditions. Some weeds are beneficial and the provide habitat for fish and invertebrates. Since you don't feed the fish pellets nor implement a regular fish thinning harvest the fish will show signs of lower relative weights and somewhat thin bodies. More calculated managed fish harvests will result in chunkier bodies fish due to fewer fish to eating the natural foods produced by the pond.

Great job Bret !! Good condition on the SMB and the YP are nice. What about the forage fish ?

For everyone else this thread has a ton of good info on fish choices and methods.

Thank you, Dr Bill. I can't thank you enough for your oversight and guidance in getting to this point.
You too, Ewest!
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I still see a lot of minnow sized forage massing in the shallows. I am unsure if it is FH, YP YOY, or shiners. I will have to throw the minnow trap in for a couple of hours with a bread ball to see what's going on.

This is awesome, well done Bski! When I first joined the forum you were still digging your slice of paradise. What a great journey!

Yours is one of the threads I read all the way through when I first found PBF about three or so years ago. I've enjoyed your journey Brettsik.

Time to enjoy the fruits of your labor.