Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/19/06 03:11 PM
I have heard that it is bad to stock a pond with adult fish that have been caught from other small farm ponds. Why? 
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/19/06 05:09 PM
I wouldn't say that it's necessarily always bad. If your primary goal is to provide broodstock to inexpensively jump start a pond it can be successful. If your goal is to use these transported fish as your recreational fish, then you are taking fish in the prime of their lives, that have adapted to a certain system and asking them to change every thing that they know as far as foraging.
You should also consider the possibility that you will transport undesirable parasites that maybe wouldn't have found their way into the new pond.
I've seen situations where fish were moved from one small farm pond to another and did quite well, but if the receiving pond is brand new it might be better to show some patience.
Very interested in what some others feel about this situation.
Good? Bad? Sometimes both? Sometimes neither?
You should also consider the possibility that you will transport undesirable parasites that maybe wouldn't have found their way into the new pond.
I've seen situations where fish were moved from one small farm pond to another and did quite well, but if the receiving pond is brand new it might be better to show some patience.
Very interested in what some others feel about this situation.
Good? Bad? Sometimes both? Sometimes neither?
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/19/06 06:48 PM
There's pros and cons.
Besides what Bruce mentioned, some other cons include:
-the possibility of mis-identifying fish and introducing an undesirable species
-the chance of stocking fish bigger than what the developing food chain of a new pond can support
-IMHO less well defined stocking number guidance for using large fish (although we see so many different stocking schemes succeed and fail, and argue so much about them, this point may well be of limited validity)
-the relatively low cost of fingerlings for stocking a new pond compared to the cost of the pond itself
On the pro side:
-It's more Pondmeister-participatory and appeals to DYIers
-One could stock a few fish each from multiple sources, hopefully getting good genetic diversity
I would NOT recommend it for completely inexperienced pond owners who can't get fish identification help. If you were transferring fish from a pond with a good pedigree it would be much harder for a rookie to go wrong.
I will almost definitely use transfer of fish from my current pond for some of the stockers in a future pond.
Besides what Bruce mentioned, some other cons include:
-the possibility of mis-identifying fish and introducing an undesirable species
-the chance of stocking fish bigger than what the developing food chain of a new pond can support
-IMHO less well defined stocking number guidance for using large fish (although we see so many different stocking schemes succeed and fail, and argue so much about them, this point may well be of limited validity)
-the relatively low cost of fingerlings for stocking a new pond compared to the cost of the pond itself
On the pro side:
-It's more Pondmeister-participatory and appeals to DYIers
-One could stock a few fish each from multiple sources, hopefully getting good genetic diversity
I would NOT recommend it for completely inexperienced pond owners who can't get fish identification help. If you were transferring fish from a pond with a good pedigree it would be much harder for a rookie to go wrong.
I will almost definitely use transfer of fish from my current pond for some of the stockers in a future pond.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/20/06 01:48 AM
It all depends, and it depends on numerous things some of which have been thoughtfully listed. Another couple of things to consider are:
1. Do you know the stocking history of the donor pond? Has anyone introduced non-hatchery raised fish?. Has anyone introduced water that could have contained any fish viruses or bacteria or other organisms that harbored these organisms? Does a stream enter the donor pond? All things that should raise a red flag regarding getting fish for stocking from this pond.
2. Are you introducing adequate numbers or ratios of fish so when the first spawns occur that it produces a half-way normal balance of both forage fish and predator. The number of hatchlings of each group (forage & predator) that SURVIVE is almost always based on the number of existing numbers and sizes of fish already in the pond. Uneven or unbalanced numbers of adults perpetuates out-of-balance sitatuations or populations for future generations. Of course this is not so improtant if your goal is a forage fish pond or a single species pond.
3. The older a fish is the more likely it will contain a latent or active disease (bacterium or virus) or internal-external parasite. This is true because of the simple fact that the older fish have been around longer to be exposed to more possibilities. With largemouth bass virus disease being now relatively widespread and continuing to further spread, I would be very hesitant of introducing non-hatchery raised larger, LM bass from any body of water into my pond. I have enough problems raising quality fish without having to also contend with newly, introduced diseases.
4. Theo touched on the topic of adequate number of forage fish to feed each introduced predator. If one does not expect the introduced predators to loose weight and body condition (general health or well being) then for each predator one should add at least 5 to 6 pounds of adequately sized forage fish. I think this number should be closer to 10 lbs of forage per each predator since a predator in theory converts fish biomass at a ratio of around 10:1. Ten pounds of forage per each predator will hopefully allow for a surplus of forage fish so some forage fish, brood fish can be around to spawn the next spring to produce the young fish for the next generation.
These initially stocked forage fish should ideally have lengths about 3-4 times smaller than the length of the predator. Although this length ratio can vary somewhat based on the species of forage fish used. For example, a 16" bass needs to be eating mostly 4"-5" bgill to get good weight gain. If a large predator (example- 16" LMbass) has to subsist on 2"-3" forage fish then the bass will usually lose weight. This is because the bass expends more energy catching forage fish than the amount of energy or calories contained in the collective meal of forage fish. It is basically the same as a growing person (young adult) physically working hard all day and then for each daily meal all he gets is a 1000 calorie meal. Ideally this hard working person should have more than 2500-3000 calories to stay healthy and keep growing properly.
1. Do you know the stocking history of the donor pond? Has anyone introduced non-hatchery raised fish?. Has anyone introduced water that could have contained any fish viruses or bacteria or other organisms that harbored these organisms? Does a stream enter the donor pond? All things that should raise a red flag regarding getting fish for stocking from this pond.
2. Are you introducing adequate numbers or ratios of fish so when the first spawns occur that it produces a half-way normal balance of both forage fish and predator. The number of hatchlings of each group (forage & predator) that SURVIVE is almost always based on the number of existing numbers and sizes of fish already in the pond. Uneven or unbalanced numbers of adults perpetuates out-of-balance sitatuations or populations for future generations. Of course this is not so improtant if your goal is a forage fish pond or a single species pond.
3. The older a fish is the more likely it will contain a latent or active disease (bacterium or virus) or internal-external parasite. This is true because of the simple fact that the older fish have been around longer to be exposed to more possibilities. With largemouth bass virus disease being now relatively widespread and continuing to further spread, I would be very hesitant of introducing non-hatchery raised larger, LM bass from any body of water into my pond. I have enough problems raising quality fish without having to also contend with newly, introduced diseases.
4. Theo touched on the topic of adequate number of forage fish to feed each introduced predator. If one does not expect the introduced predators to loose weight and body condition (general health or well being) then for each predator one should add at least 5 to 6 pounds of adequately sized forage fish. I think this number should be closer to 10 lbs of forage per each predator since a predator in theory converts fish biomass at a ratio of around 10:1. Ten pounds of forage per each predator will hopefully allow for a surplus of forage fish so some forage fish, brood fish can be around to spawn the next spring to produce the young fish for the next generation.
These initially stocked forage fish should ideally have lengths about 3-4 times smaller than the length of the predator. Although this length ratio can vary somewhat based on the species of forage fish used. For example, a 16" bass needs to be eating mostly 4"-5" bgill to get good weight gain. If a large predator (example- 16" LMbass) has to subsist on 2"-3" forage fish then the bass will usually lose weight. This is because the bass expends more energy catching forage fish than the amount of energy or calories contained in the collective meal of forage fish. It is basically the same as a growing person (young adult) physically working hard all day and then for each daily meal all he gets is a 1000 calorie meal. Ideally this hard working person should have more than 2500-3000 calories to stay healthy and keep growing properly.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/21/06 12:26 AM
I am working on this pond project with NEFish, its a 5 acre pond, a local hatchery has 3-5" BG available this fall, as well as various sizes of yellow perch which I would like to introduce in smaller numbers.
One of my thoughts has been to get a good pop of FH and an appropriate amount of BG stocked this fall, and then consider adding either hatchery raised LMB, or transfered LMB next spring.
One of our goals is to have catchable reproductive LMB next year.
My question would be... Is there a comprimise scenario that can provide a good forage base and still give us a jumpstart?
Also what are your thoughts on the PERCH?
One of my thoughts has been to get a good pop of FH and an appropriate amount of BG stocked this fall, and then consider adding either hatchery raised LMB, or transfered LMB next spring.
One of our goals is to have catchable reproductive LMB next year.
My question would be... Is there a comprimise scenario that can provide a good forage base and still give us a jumpstart?
Also what are your thoughts on the PERCH?
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/21/06 02:13 AM
To meet your goal of next year, you might read the article re Tony Stewarts pond in the latest issue of PB. Bring $$$$$$$$$$$.
If a local hatchery has a bunch of 3-5 inch that they don't want to carry over, they might sell them pretty cheaply.
For all of the cautionary reasons listed above, I wouldn't xfer fish. Although stocking is somewhat expensive, it works out to be just about the cheapest part of the whole process. I would do it right. I would also adjust my goals regarding catching LMB the first year. You can't have a decent forage base by then.
If a local hatchery has a bunch of 3-5 inch that they don't want to carry over, they might sell them pretty cheaply.
For all of the cautionary reasons listed above, I wouldn't xfer fish. Although stocking is somewhat expensive, it works out to be just about the cheapest part of the whole process. I would do it right. I would also adjust my goals regarding catching LMB the first year. You can't have a decent forage base by then.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/21/06 02:32 AM
To sort of add on to Daves comments about stocking there are other advantages that go with stocking the fish. If you add in the larger fish right away you do not see or get as much ownership of building up the eco system and understanding the interactions. Thus IMO you would have a pond full of fish but not understand the interactions and the issues as well as if you took the time and built things up from the forage all the way up.
I thought I wanted to have a pond that I could fish for YP and SMB right away. I was educated here to take the time and start the forage fish then the YP and then the SMB over a 3 year period. Now I truly truly value the understanding of the fish and interactions between all of the inhabitants in the pond. I have been able to add on to the pond the structure and specific needs that I have learned by observing the eco system. I have grown to appreciate the pond for something more than a hole with nice large fish in it. I understand what it takes for it to get to that point and how I can help make it even better.
I also know if I put larger fish in there right away for me to catch, I would have run into some major problems later on that I would be harder pressed to fix. I truly believe that because of the time I have spent understanding the pond and the needs of all in and around the pond I have been able to say I have not lost a single fish yet, I have 3 YO YP that are now in the 12-13 inch range and 2 YO SMB in the 12 inch range. My pond still holds a nice forage base while being able to sustain about 75-100 YP and 25 SMB in a 1/10-1/4 acre pond. I don't have stunted fish and I have every type of wildlife visiting my pond.
In short I know I would not have been able to say those things if I had started out with larger fish and not experienced and grown with my pond. I sort of liken it to why women go 9 months before birth, they ( males too ) for the most part need the time to learn to become parents. I think the time it takes to get to the larger fish is more than time well spent it is the journey that makes the end worth while. I think if you dont take the journey you cheat yourself out of the best part of the pond.
For my $0.02 that is the true ZEN of pond/eco system building.
I thought I wanted to have a pond that I could fish for YP and SMB right away. I was educated here to take the time and start the forage fish then the YP and then the SMB over a 3 year period. Now I truly truly value the understanding of the fish and interactions between all of the inhabitants in the pond. I have been able to add on to the pond the structure and specific needs that I have learned by observing the eco system. I have grown to appreciate the pond for something more than a hole with nice large fish in it. I understand what it takes for it to get to that point and how I can help make it even better.
I also know if I put larger fish in there right away for me to catch, I would have run into some major problems later on that I would be harder pressed to fix. I truly believe that because of the time I have spent understanding the pond and the needs of all in and around the pond I have been able to say I have not lost a single fish yet, I have 3 YO YP that are now in the 12-13 inch range and 2 YO SMB in the 12 inch range. My pond still holds a nice forage base while being able to sustain about 75-100 YP and 25 SMB in a 1/10-1/4 acre pond. I don't have stunted fish and I have every type of wildlife visiting my pond.
In short I know I would not have been able to say those things if I had started out with larger fish and not experienced and grown with my pond. I sort of liken it to why women go 9 months before birth, they ( males too ) for the most part need the time to learn to become parents. I think the time it takes to get to the larger fish is more than time well spent it is the journey that makes the end worth while. I think if you dont take the journey you cheat yourself out of the best part of the pond.
For my $0.02 that is the true ZEN of pond/eco system building.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/21/06 02:48 AM
We've touched on this topic several times before. I like a diverse fishery, I bought Coppernose bgill, Catfish, Crappie, and HSB from the hatchery because I didn't have access to smaller fish for selective stocking. As for the Bgill & LMB, I was far more selective, I didn't want the generic 100 from the fish farm...I had access to what I believe was better fish, I don't believe the hatchery would have let me fish out and transport only the fish that met the upper limits of my requirements. I knew the originating waterhole well and only stocked superior fish. Only time will tell if it's worth the effort...so far, no complaints. Not to mention...it was a lot more fun catching and keeping the big fish, as compared to releasing fingerlings. I also established my forage base 1 year prior to stocking predators...patience 
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/21/06 03:00 PM
Some other thoughts in addition to the outstanding discussion above.
As Dave said, although expensive, the fish are usually one of the cheapest parts of the whole project. The best comparison I can think of is the landscape industry. We are talking about laying turf as opposed to seeding a lawn, planting tall $500 trees rather than young $5 trees. Compared to the cost of the house, or in our case, lake, it might sense to stock adult fish ready to go.
There is a huge problem with stocking adult fish...in general, they're not available. Why should a hatchery keep fish to a larger size when they can sell them at a profit when they are small? Except for a few high value species such as sterile grass carp, SMB, HSB or easy to raise species like CC or trout, I don't see this happening. We are then forced to get fish from other sources.
If we want to add another species to our existing lake, we are forced to stock adult fish. They have to come from someplace and if hatcheries aren't raising them, where?
Depending on the area, many fathead minnows are caught in the wild. Stocking fathead minnows in many cases is no different that going out to the local river and putting these fish into our lakes.
As Dave said, although expensive, the fish are usually one of the cheapest parts of the whole project. The best comparison I can think of is the landscape industry. We are talking about laying turf as opposed to seeding a lawn, planting tall $500 trees rather than young $5 trees. Compared to the cost of the house, or in our case, lake, it might sense to stock adult fish ready to go.
There is a huge problem with stocking adult fish...in general, they're not available. Why should a hatchery keep fish to a larger size when they can sell them at a profit when they are small? Except for a few high value species such as sterile grass carp, SMB, HSB or easy to raise species like CC or trout, I don't see this happening. We are then forced to get fish from other sources.
If we want to add another species to our existing lake, we are forced to stock adult fish. They have to come from someplace and if hatcheries aren't raising them, where?
Depending on the area, many fathead minnows are caught in the wild. Stocking fathead minnows in many cases is no different that going out to the local river and putting these fish into our lakes.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/22/06 01:06 AM
Ok... most of you feel that the risk out weighs the reward. So help us do it right, with the 3-5" BG the local hatchery has I probably don't need 500/acre right?
When and in what numbers do I introduce the BG?
YP?
LMB?
When and in what numbers do I introduce the BG?
YP?
LMB?
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/22/06 12:49 PM
basscrack, I will defer to others on your stocking question. I just want to say that the biggest LMB ever caught at our pond was a transplanted fish from a small NRD lake. It has a unique spawning scar on it's tail so it's easy indentify. Here is picture of it when a freind of mine caught it, I personally have caught this fish 5 times.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/22/06 12:58 PM
Shorty wrote: "I personally have caught this fish 5 times."
I personally try to encourage this behavior by offering the fish a couple of swigs of fine German beer and a smoke when I catch them.
I personally try to encourage this behavior by offering the fish a couple of swigs of fine German beer and a smoke when I catch them.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/22/06 04:25 PM
Quote:
I personally try to encourage this behavior by offering the fish a couple of swigs of fine German beer and a smoke when I catch them.
Re: Stocking pond from other farm ponds?? - 09/23/06 06:42 PM
I accidentally killed fish in one of my ponds a couple of years ago. If I had to guess I'd say 75% of the fish died. I went to scoop dead fish out of the water and noticed a good size bass swimming so I realized immediately not to buy fingerlings. Since it was early spring and close to spawning time I caught several bream and a few bass from my other ponds and transferred them home. I periodically did this for 2 years and I figured this would be the year I might could catch fish. It turned out I was 1 year ahead because last year there were several fish caught and plenty more this year. I believe the 2 ponds I caught fish out of to restock are some of the cleanest ponds in my area so I wasn't concerned with parasites, disease, etc.