Pond Boss
Posted By: ewest HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 05:09 AM
Here are some HBG pics. and a question.

Different sources (written and oral reports) indicate that there is a differences between the 2 BG x GSF crosses. One is the reported difference in % males with mBG x fGSF cross = 97% male and the mGSF x fBG cross = 69% male. Does anyone know what each looks like and are they different in appearance. I keep seeing 2 types of pics that are different over and over. See below.











I wonder if the top 3 are mGSF x fBG and the bottom 2 are mBG x fGSF ?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 11:47 AM
Eric:

It's hard for me to feel I'm making valid comparisons; we know how much the same fish can vary from season to season, day to day, even minute to minute (with mood swings, etc.).

Anyway, FWIW #2 & #3 look like what I remember my HBG do (haven't seen one for 20 months). #4 looks to me to be the "most different."

What do you see as the chief differences between #1 and #5? I see the GSF-ish gill striations on #5 but not #1; to me, that makes #5 look more like #2 and #3.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 01:01 PM
Theo :

The difference I see most is body shape and color pattern. 1,2 & 3 are shaped like GSF and 4 & 5 are shaped like BG. 1,2,&3 have lines around mouth and are a dark base color while 4 & 5 have no mouth lines and BG base color. It is hard to see as 1 is a strange angle pic. and 5 got fuzzy when enlarged (it is not that dark on sm pic.). Tales show some different shapes and mouth shape and size. 1,2 & 3 have GSF/bass like mouth shape while 4 & 5 ,while large mouthed, still retain BG shaped mouth. I sure don't know the answer if there is one. I hoped someone would or that collectively the discussion would enlighten us all.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 01:51 PM
I hadn't noticed mouth configuration, but there do appear to be some definite differences.

Do you know the provenance of the pics, or are they a random collection? What I'm getting at is, are they all F1's or could some be F2's or backcrosses - that would account for a lot of variation.

Analogous hybrid question that might shed light - what extent of differences occur between the sunshine and palmetto crosses of HSB? All I recall seeing definite info on is the production differences of obtaining egg-laden females (IIRC it's usually easier to get suitable female WB than lady Stripers).
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 02:17 PM
Theo :

Those are a random sample. No info on location or status as F1, F2, Fx or (F )or backcrosses (at least one study and other papers say they can't backcross while others say they can ). Could that be a difference in the 2 types also.

George did a great post on the HSB type question.
Posted By: Gambusia Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 06:26 PM
I think the picture by Garold Sneegas (No.3) is an actual green sunfish.

It sure looks just like the ones I catch albeit bigger.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 10:00 PM
2 & 3 have to be GSF;, the mouth is just too big not to be. Is it possible that #4 is one of the rare females, due to the coloring? 1 & 5 are definitely different looking, but as it has been posted previously, they are a hodgepodge of variety.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 03/25/06 11:01 PM
The pics were labeled by the authors as HBG. They should have known. Here is a GSF and it does not look just like those above. No black spots, no light pelvic fin area and different color background (they have verticle bars of BG) on those above labeled HBG in 1,2 & 3. It is isn't it.



Posted By: Eastland Re: HBG pic/question - 03/26/06 01:11 AM
I really like these photo's ! Pics 2 & 3 look almost like a pure greenie, must have 90% of the GSF genes. # 1 looks like a CNBG/GSF mix with those wide vertical bars. 4 & 5 look like the regular fish I see labeled as HBG. Just fyi, I do not see many fish like 2 & 3 I think are hybrids...those torpedo beasts are Green Sunfish !
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: HBG pic/question - 03/27/06 03:16 AM
Eric, every GSF I catch looks exactly like # 3. I catch them of all sizes so I have no reason to believe they have any hybrid in them.
Posted By: BJ Re: HBG pic/question - 03/28/06 01:01 AM
From what I have seen over the years, as the HBG gets larger in size, they tend to show more yellow markings than orange like the GSF. When HBG (F1) is stocked in a pond it looks most like #3. As it gains a lot of weight and increases in length, I see them look alot more like 1 & 4.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 03/28/06 02:30 AM
From the Peterson Field Guide of freshwater fishes.

Green Sunfish
...Adult has large black spot at rear of 2d dorsal and anal fin bases ,yellow or orange edges on dorsal, caudal and anal fins ... white to yellow belly ....

Only the GSF pic (last above) has all those markings and not 1 ,2 and 3 above.
Posted By: Gambusia Re: HBG pic/question - 03/28/06 04:11 PM
Green sunfish can be highly variable though in their markings.

I stil think 2 and 3 are greens and the rest hybrids
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 05/01/06 01:23 PM
Thanks Gator for the following pic which is added for info. You can read about it at the link below the pic.





http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000457;p=1#000007
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: HBG pic/question - 05/01/06 03:06 PM
Here's a HBG I stocked in my pond in March of '04

Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 05/01/06 05:18 PM
I can't even begin to comment on what a HBG should look like but this post interests me just because I have a pond full of them and am searching for ways to tell F2s, F3s, etc. from my F1s. I can tell you that the only picture I've ever seen on this forum that looks like my F1s is picture 3 above. I saw that and said "that's my fish!" In Gators picture as posted by ewest I see a resemblance in the blue bars under the eyes. Some day I'll have to get some pics of my F1s and what I think might be F2s and see what the smart guys here think. Sorry Ryan but the only thing on your picture that looks to me like a HBG is the bright yellow on fin edges. I'm not doubting that it's a HBG but it's amazing what differences in water, water color, feed, and I suppose mood have on fish color. By the way I don't know exactly what cross my HBG are but I've eaten 120 fish from my pond and have yet to find a female.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/12/06 08:15 PM
Here is a HBG with thanks to Matt Clark.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/34733756%3B%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]

Here is a second HBG pic from Matt's pond. Thanks for sharing.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/3473442%3A6%7Ffp346%3Enu%3D323%3B%3E756%3E465%3EWSNRCG%3D32338386%3A8%3B77nu0mrj[/img]
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/13/06 01:45 PM
Bz,

I just noticed this post, thanks to EWEST's picture.

I have several pictures of the GG as they have been growing since Dec. at the following link:

http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/TGG.htm

I've thus far only seen 1 F2 and have it in a micro pond for observation. I can't tell any difference in appearance between F1 and F2, but possibly the trained eye could.

I'd be interested in what you think of those pictures and how they compare to your HBG. Thanks.
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/13/06 09:39 PM
I think it's amazing that your GG's have almost doubled in size since December. I wonder if that's just you mild climate or if it's the GG's high growth rate. How does the growth compare to regular BG in your ponds? I will try to get some pictures of my HBG. Based upon my untrained eye my HBG only look like your GG with respect to the bright edges on the fins, the blue bars under the eyes, and the long ear flap. Other than that they are colored very different. There color varies from top to bottom with black on the top changing to some mottling with the same irridescent blue that is under the eyes, with bright orange on the belly. Of course the color differnce could be just the water/feed. The other thing I noticed is that mine basically looked the same in terms of color and body proportions from the time I first looked at one closely at 3 inches long to 10 inches long. Of course during the spawn the mature males do get the bulging forehead but other than that they look the same throughout their life so far. Your young ones look to have a more slender shape and large eye in proportion to body size as compared to the larger ones. I'll email you some pictures.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: HBG pic/question - 06/13/06 09:44 PM
Peronally I'm skeptical if there are very many F2s or F3s to speak of, of the offspring. I've seen literature that says survival of green sunfish hybrid offspring is bascially nill and that has been my experience. I had some escape a floating cage and for the most part they all disappeared and I only caught one. Never saw anything that looked like it could be offspring of them.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/13/06 10:10 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by bz:
How does the growth compare to regular BG in your ponds?
Bz,

The "baseline" growth rate for BG in Texas is .012 inches per day. The GG's, in the most recent measurement period, had slowed to an overall growth rate of .02 inches per day.

I'll look forward to your pictures. Interesting stuff.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 06/13/06 10:15 PM
ML:

That TGG F2 can't be very big yet, can it? Perhaps it's appearance will be become more distinctive as it matures.

But then there's quite a bit of variation amongst GG's themselves, IMHO.
Posted By: Debra King Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 12:27 AM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:

But then there's quite a bit of variation amongst GG's themselves, IMHO.
IMHO too! It is amazing to see how many differences are in each batch. Although I must admit I have yet to see such a vibrant orange on the GG's. Some orange yes but not as painted looking (and that is meant as a compliment) as the one above.

Pretty fish!
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 02:42 AM
While I think Matt's 2 HBG above both have BG genetics my guess is that they are very different with the remaining cross genetics. I think he provided they came from 2 sources.

The BG shape is similar but the background pattern is not and the colors are not. The second one looks like a standard issue HBG (BG X GSF) like several shown above. The first HBG pic above has a background pattern like a redbreast hybrid , or some RES. I would bet that it has a much lower % GSF than the second fish. If I recall Matt has posted several lepomis mixes here and each one looks different.

See this thread for our prior discussion.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000143;p=1#000000

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/344%3A975523232%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]

Some of his pics from the thread are gone but this one remains.

[img]http://images1.snapfish.com/34733756%3B%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3C%3D847%3D556%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B34%3A57766ot1lsi[/img]


Look at this link of the different lepomis types especially the redbreast and hybrid and the RES.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/centrarchidae.html
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 01:40 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
ML:

That TGG F2 can't be very big yet, can it? Perhaps it's appearance will be become more distinctive as it matures.
Theo, no its small. The F2 appearance may change as it grows, but I doubt anyone without a microscope can identify differences between F1 and F2...and maybe not even then. Later on this year, I will get a side-by-side picture of the F1 and F2 for everyone to look at...of course you will be able to see the size difference, but independent of size it will be interesting to see if there are any other discernable differences.

If my pond is going to contain F3,F4, and F5 fish this year(and green sunfish as well), as suggested by some, things are going to have to change very quickly. I don't expect to see any F3, since I have been able to trap only one F2 thus far...but the summer has a long ways to go yet. Fun stuff.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 02:17 PM
Remember 'Bubba' was an Fx from a 20 yr. old pond. Sure didnt look like a greenie. If he was a 10 yr. old son of a 10 yr. old pair, he was an F2. What are those chances? ;\)
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 02:32 PM
Burger,

That is a good point...suggestive that maybe the Fx aren't as bad as thought. Perhaps, with excellent predation, they may even be acceptable.
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/14/06 05:56 PM
ML, check you email, I sent you some pictures.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: HBG pic/question - 06/15/06 12:28 PM
I noticed one of my HBG guarding a nest yesterday and it spawned my interest in this thread. ML's GG look almost exactly the same as my GSF/BG hybrids. ML's growth is a little ahead of mine but this is probably in part due to climate differences between Ohio and Texas. It would be interesting to stock both GSF/BG hybrids and GGs in equal numbers in the same pond for comparison. It appears that marking one breed would be a good idea in this type of experiment.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/15/06 12:52 PM
Ryan,

I looked at the e-mail pictures that Bz sent and his fish appear to have different genetics than the GG's in the experiment. I'm certainly no expert, but to my eyes they have different genetics independent of color differences.

Climate differences make for different growth rates, but it was surprising to me to see the winter GG growth rates in my experiment. It was almost as if you could see them grow. Lately, it seems to have slowed down a bit.
Posted By: h20fwlkillr Re: HBG pic/question - 06/16/06 06:14 AM
There is a lake I fish that has alot of pumpkinseed,GSF, BG, and RES in it that I think have crossed. I see fish that brightly colored caught out of it every spring until the algae bloom starts going good in early summer and then they get more drab.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: HBG pic/question - 06/16/06 12:27 PM
H2O, I watched and electofishing demo by the state DNR at a 1 acre pond that was completely surrounded by cattails and crystal clear. Several skinny bass, one big CC, GSF, BG, Pumpkinseeds, and a few sunfish that looked like a combination of the other species were shocked and netted. The DNR said that the sunfish interbreeding was due to a lack of breeding partners in their own species because of the bass being overpopulated.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 06/16/06 11:19 PM
Wow - that's kind of a perpetuating spiral for the bass. Too many bass, so not enough forage. Forage hybridizes, and the amount of resulting hybrid forage is probably even lower. I wonder how long it could take for a situation like that to turn into an all small bass lake with NO other species - it seems that would at least be possible.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 06/16/06 11:39 PM
I believe that the crystal clear water is the key. Too good of spawning conditions for the bass. But, in clear water, you would think the panfish could court their own kind. Stress is one reason given for hybridization. Right, wrong, crazy? Dont answer #3.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/17/06 01:07 AM
That can be a factor but there are others. Water quality ( poor visibility) during the spawn, low population numbers of one species only , lack of spawning locations , weather causing species who don't spawn at the same time to overlap and possible alternative mating strategies and others I am sure. It is common for lepomis species to cross.
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 01:50 AM
I'm tired of not being able to post pictures. So I'm giving it a try. If this works it is a picture of a 9.5 inch HBG from my pond, between 14 and 15 ounces.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/bdz_2006/Dscf0023.jpg
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 01:58 AM
I'll try again.

/i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/bdz_2006/Dscf0023.jpg
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 02:03 AM
Third try

://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/bdz_2006/Dscf0023.jpg
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 02:09 AM
Fourth try, if this doesn't work I quit.


Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 02:14 AM
It's working bz. Nice 'helmet' on that one.
Posted By: trialsguy Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 04:02 AM
Thats a fat porker! A little fly jig on a ultra lite and 2 lb test would be a blast.

Heck I called anything that looked other than a bass or catfish a blue gill. man I have alot to catch up on. I still cant figure out all the res,hbg,gg,cc,lmb, but I am learning
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 11:21 AM
Trialsguy, although I know the difference, I still think of them as perch.

res: redear sunfish
hbg: hybrid bluegill
gg: georgia giant
cc: channel catfish
lmb: largemouth bass
cnbg: coppernose bluegill
bg: bluegill

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112031
fh: fathead minnow
gc: grass carp
smb: smallmouth bass

And, the list gets longer.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 12:29 PM
Nice fish bz. How old is it?
Posted By: Matt Clark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 01:34 PM
Wow, nice gill.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 02:08 PM
Bz,

Very nice fish, Bz. It looks to me like there may be several different versions of the HBG with different genetics.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 02:21 PM
Nice fish BZ!! \:\) Very interesting coloration. A little different from most of the other HBG posted on this thread. What can you tell us about their history , hatchery , and mix of parents? Do most of your's look like that one?
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 04:49 PM
This fish just turned 4 years old. All I can tell you about its genetics is that I bought it from a local hatchery here in MN. The guy told me that it was a cross between bluegill and green sunfish. He keeps some breeder fish in separate tanks and he showed my his GSF and BG stock but I coudn't say anything about how pure a breed they were. Mine are all colored exactly like this but with some a little lighter at times. The light in the picture must have subdued some of the blue coloring since it does have the typical blue bars under the eyes. The series of light spots running in stipes down the sides are actually a little blueish. The bellies can be as bright yellow pumpkinseeds. When they were younger the blue was more pronounced. I stocked the fish when they were 3 months old which was Sept. 2002. I have very dark colored water in my pond which I think tends to make all my fish rather dark colored. If I ever catch a LMB I'll take a picture. They too are almost black on the top with a definite dark olive green color throughout.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 06/20/06 05:09 PM
That's a really good photo. Thank you.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 12:00 AM
DIED's HBG from the link below.

Fish 1


Fish 3




http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000485;p=3#000043
Posted By: Sunil Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 12:17 AM
D.I.E.D.'s fish have huge mouths.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 08:27 PM
ewest, thanks for getting me on right thread. I was hesitant to start a new topic, because I was certain such issues have been previously covered (as best they can)... . Out of the 30 or so fish I have caught and transferred, I am hopeful some are female. Although I dont have pics, some of the larger ones caught a couple weeks ago exhibited some type of bright colored (whitish/yellowish) nodules on the basal fins, and their bellies appeared really fat (w/ eggs?). The nodules did not appear to be any kind of parasite, but rather some kind of growth on fin. I probably should have cut a few just to find out, but was too excited getting these lunker perch into pond. another thing I noted was the rapid color changes these fish exhibit. Like a chameleon, when pulled from water and put into white bucket, their skin immediately changed colors (brightened to more yellows than greens), when I pulled them out of bucket at my pond, they darkened up again....had never seen that before.

After reviewing all the threads you provided ewest, my questions evolved into wondering what were the original native freshwater perch species in N.America. the variations are mind boggling. I wouldnt be surprised if we have western varieties of perch that have evolved differently from those back east, like some of the birds (eastern bluebird/western bluebird) so we have "western GSF/BG". were GSF/BG present 200 yrs ago, across the continent or have they been introduced out west here (like German Brown Trout...now naturalized but now called "native" if they were not stocked by Dept. of Fish and Game).

[Rhetorically] has anybody traced perch back into geologic history?? What were the original true species. What species(or sub-species) is closest to the original from which we get all the variations today?........does anybody care as long they grow big, are fun to catch, and good to eat??
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 09:08 PM
Trying to answer my own dumb questions.....i am remiss for not having any good freshwater fish textbooks, but did find reference to origin of sunfish (and others) in CA from a Sierra Nevada natural history book i have. Probably old news for most of you, but new to me. According to this reference (and reading between the lines), Lepomis (GSF/BG/pumpkinseed were the ones mentioned), SMB, LMB, and even Gambusia were all brought west (from back east) during the "americanization" of CA...whatever that means.......when the settlers came in droves, and pushed out the mexicans and indians i guess.

So from a geologic standpoint, either the Rockies and/or the Sierra Nevada kept sunfish and Bass confined to central and eastern waters of the continent.. any western variations in these fish would have evolved in the last 200 years or so.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 10:08 PM
So hats off to those Manifest Destiny Pondmeisters, who carried the familiar fish from back East out to California in their covered wagons. Think what great aeration systems they must have had in their live wells! Thanks to them, we have BG/LMB/CC (and those pesky GSF) from sea to shining sea.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/03/06 10:17 PM
Pretty interesting to ponder there Theo, just how did those little guys survive a covered wagon trip over the Rockies? Seems it would be some pretty dedicated work, think of all the times they had to change out the water between here and there.

Probably most western stock was started with only the strongest of the survivors.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/04/06 12:22 AM
No wonder they look a little different - they're the best of the best of the best!
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/04/06 02:46 PM
The normal thinking about HBG is that they don't provide as much forage as pure BG. This is because they are mostly males. My question is this.

Even if they are 95% males, aren't there still enough females to reproduce adequately? If the BG are capable of multiple spawns, why aren't HBG?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/04/06 05:56 PM
Since they are (half) GSF (or RES or ...), they are probably less capable of multiple spawns than BG to some degree. Plus, Norm, I bet the F2 generation has a lot of gene combinations that prove fatal at the egg or fry stage, making recruitment from HBG even lower. No info on that point, just a hunch.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 07/04/06 07:05 PM
Norm,

I'm convinced there is a lot about HBG that we do not know. Each different cross (and backcross) from GSF, BG, and RES male/female may indeed represent different behavior patterns including spawning.

Much (perhaps most all) of the standard complaints about HBG may very well be due to breaking one of the cardinal HBG rules such as never stock HBG with BG. That coupled with the bias commonly seen against these fish and reputations can be established with questionable science behind them.

I've learned a few things in my small experiment with HBG, but most of all have learned how little I know about these interesting fish.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 01:44 AM
No doubt there is a lot to learn about each fish species and cross including HBG and their many variations. I have not found bias or questionable science in any of the approximately 50 studies and compilations I have seen on HBG , lepomis and centrarchids and their crosses. There are a couple conflicting study results. I would like to see any study that has bias or questionable science.

I doubt very seriously that any of the scientists who did the studies or wrote the papers I have seen (on HBG or otherwise) would risk their reputation on bias or questionable science in a study that is subject to extensive peer review prior to publishing and open review by his peers after publication.

Norm to answer your question Laarman (1979) found that reproduction by BG was 279 times greater than that of HBG.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 02:15 AM
To clarify, my comment "reputations can be established with questionable science behind them" referred, for example, to establishing the reputation of HBG as producers of GSF offspring without any science behind it. I think most can agree that they have been told that HBG will produce GSF and that those offspring will "take over" a pond.

I think I may have even read it here a time or two. ;\)

The comment was not at all directed at legitimate scientific studies.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 03:22 AM
quote by Meadowlark..."I think most can agree that they have been told that HBG will produce GSF and that those offspring will "take over" a pond." I have seen and heard these comments, even from producers. I dont know what they will make, but you, ML, will know in a few years, and I, for 1, will be very interested. I have never bought in to the 'backcross' into GSF stuff. If logic is followed, then mustn't we assume that they will also backcross into bluegill? Then, what...we start over again? Just doesn't make sense. Always an interesting topic.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 04:21 AM
Recall that in my case, the ranchpond has been unmanaged and not stocked for over 30 years. What you are seeing in my pics are GSF (hybrids?) that have naturalized, are obviously reproducing, and continue to produce really nice fish [even w/ them big mouths (Mr. Sunil)], and in the presence of large numbers of LMB, which could be the key to their size. The problem is nobodoy knows what started in the pond....they could be naturally cross-bred GSF w/ BG that were introduced at different times....in a galaxy long long ago.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 12:55 PM
Lots of good points. Maybe Dave Willis will see this and tell us about the HBG at Lake Hendricks.

It seems that HBG used to be considered the be all and do all. Then it swung completely the other way to where we should avoid them completely. I think there is a good middle ground.

In another thread, we are discussing "Keeping things simple". One possibility is a predator only pond. If we can do a predator only (LMB) pond, then the low reproductivity of HBG shouldn't matter. Also, we shouldn't have to worry about hybrid depression as the predator would eat almost all of the HBG offspring.

We have HBG along with northern BG in our 4-acre lake. I've seen HBG on nests many times but have never seen any surviving offspring. I like the color, agression and size of HBG. If I could get HBG large enough to avoid predation, I would stock some every year.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 01:15 PM
Norm,

I think you make an excellent point about predators. One surprising aspect of my little experiment, as least surprising to me, has been the growth of the HSB that were stocked as predators in the little TGG pond.. The HSB were stocked as 3-4 inch fish last December and now are 10+ inches.

This result has certainly opened up the possibility of using a HBG pond as a grow-out pond for HSB. It could also be a grow-out pond for HBG for those who might wish to stock them in larger ponds and avoid predation.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 02:18 PM
ML :

Thanks for your clarification. I now understand your comment.

HBG turning into GSF has no science behind it to my knowledge. That is where I lost your train of thought. HBG offspring, because of outbreeding depression, can (may) be undesirable depending on ones goals, but they can not change their genes to those of a GSF.

There are many good uses of HBG depending on ones goals. Many of the studies are positive in nature on the uses of HBG as a tool in the right circumstances. This is reflected in some of the State pond mgt. books which suggest uses like yours (with HBG).

I know I have posted this before but the studies are in conflict wrt the ability of HBG to backcross with either parental species. One says yes one says no. Both were well done studies and some very good scientists were involved and so far there is no answer for the different results. Some of us have even contacted fisheries geneticist PhDs at the highest level who have written on sunfish genetics and they have no answer as most have not studied HBG cross genetics.

Stop and think about that. If HBG can not backcross with parentals then they can not ever create or get genetically close producing GSF , even through repeated spawning attempts with GSF. If they can backcross then through repeated crossing of HBG with GSF for generations the population as a whole will have a higher content of GSF genes.

DIED you may have (in the Ranch pond) viable populations of BG and GSF that continue over time to have some crossing. Have you seen any BG or GSF ? If not then it would be really interesting to know the facts of what is going on wrt the HBG.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 03:10 PM
Ewest I understand the point of not having a 100% Pure GSF but can you not have % of fish that look, act and grow poorly like a GSF? I doubt ML has any yet, in fact ML you have very little repro at this point, right? However I'm intersted in what he has in year 2.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 03:33 PM
Greg,

Yes, exactly right...as far as I can tell from trapping, surviving repro is virtually nil. I've only been able to trap 1 offspring thus far. Remember, however, I have HSB predators stocked at a 5 to 1 ratio.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 04:18 PM
ewest, i have never caught (or seen) any other forms of lepomis from the ranchpond. i also have never caught anything under about 8-inches, the max being (as a guess) ~12-inches. the fry that are visible in weedbeds are all LMB. the lepomis fry must be really doing a great job of hiding. i've probably fished that pond 50 times in 10 years, and the (catch) results have always been the same.....a high number of 8-14-inch LMB, occasional large (3-5+ lb) LMB, and only large GSF/(hybrid?). a conclusion might be that the GSF/LMB populations have come to some kind of unmanaged equilibrium favorable for large GSF/(hybrid?)s.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 04:31 PM
D.I.E.D,

A most interesting situation...and a very desirable one from my viewpoint. Having consistent 8 to 12+ inch HBG fishing without any apparent complications from undesirable offspring is very interesting, indeed. I would want to maintain that equilibrium, myself.

Is there any way to trace back to what was originally stocked in the pond? Can you estimate the RW's of the LMB, i.e. do the 8-14 inch LMB appear to be stunted? I'm also assuming you have Gambusia as a forage? Any other forage?
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 04:53 PM
Don't know if I can add anything to this discussion but I can guarantee that my pond started with and has never been stocked with anything but HBG and I think they have reproduced. I began seeing them on spawning beds in the second year or third year, can't remember which, but they were around 5 inches long and trying to spawn. Despite the fact that in 4 years I have cleaned and eaten almost 200 of them and never found a female I occasionally catch some that are around 3 inches long. I think some of these look different. Some of the smaller (younger?) ones are more long bodied and lighter colored than others. To my eyes they don't look the same as the original stocking. My original stocking was 1000 HBG and 6 LMB. The hatchery told me I wouldn't need any more LMB than this because HBG don't reproduce much. I made the "mistake" (time will tell) of also putting crappie into the pond which may eat some HBG. Whether right or wrong the combination seems to be working in that I definitely don't have an overpopulation of small HBG. I do have too many Crappie, a fact that most of you would have predicted but in my small pond I don't seem to have trouble trapping them out.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 05:05 PM
Greg :

To keep it straight in my mind I divide this topic in 2 parts for genetic purposes.

Part One -- each type BG , GSF and HBG are a separate thing, each with their on genetics , traits, abilities, benefits and problems. Each separate and different .

Part two -- HBG are a cross (a genetic change) and as such have the potential for both hybrid vigor and outbreeding depression. Both of these are present in HBG. Big mouth - fast growth start and most important aggressive (easy to catch) and skewed sex ratio in the F1 cross. As time , generations pass outbreeding depression works to lessen hybrid vigor and can (may) lead to offspring that have traits worse than either parental species. In time they may become "unwanted" but not because they are BG or GSF (or seem to have their traits) but because they are Fx HBG that have experienced outbreeding depression and the resulting negative genetic traits.

Recall that small size and/or stunting/ overpopulating is common to a number of lepomis not just GSF. I know that one or more of these traits are common in GSF , PS , BG , and others as well.

ML has GG and I don't know if they are HBG or not. Yes you can have different %s of parental species gene sequences ( BG , RES and GSF for example) but its how they mix and match up (if they are viable/live) that counts. To my knowledge science does not know ( I have not seen it written) what traits come from where and in what % and combinations with HBG or other lepomis crosses. Much left to learn. That is why I am interested in DIED's HBG situation -- are they continuing F1 HBG or are they Fx HBG.

I hope this helps somewhat.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/05/06 05:18 PM
ML, I've never really pushed the landowner for great detail, he just told me that the pond was (re-)stocked back in the 70's and the fish, both LMB and BG...(as he callem them) came from another nearby (and larger) ranch pond that i have never been to.

I have never weighed the LMB, i really ought to get a small digital scale or something, but the rare larger LMB appear to have a normal mass to length ratio (good thick pudgy stomachs), and the 8-14-inch LMB are defintely on the skinny side with normal heads, although I wouldnt say they dramatically exhibit the large head tiny body of classically stunted fish.

I have not seen mosquito fish in the ranch pond, although the landowner said they had been there in the past, and to my observation and knowledge he never planted any other forage (i.e. FH, GS).

An interesting side note....the GSF/(hybrid?) fry run the creek above ranchpond every winter (i guess they think they're full grown salmon) and onto my property where i dug out a pretty good size pool (~1-6 foot deep, 30 foot long). the pool holds water almost all year (the creek is basically the shallow water table), and right now its got at least 50-75, 2-4 inch fish in it (they've been growing). i want to get a bait net or small seine and check them out in more detail, and possibly move em up to my pond before herons and whatnot get them. they probably run up there to escape the LMB predation, or maybe its just in their blue jeans.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 12:24 AM
I had a brief off-forum correspondence w/ a trusted source (wild bill) who thought our ranchpond fish were classic GSF but of unusually nice(perhaps trophy)size.

As a follow up duty, I'll measure the mouth gape length and width of selected future catches, the data of which can confirm the identification, and Sunil's astute observation \:D .

It has been suggested I submit to Cecil's big fish from private ponds website for the GSF sp., which would be really fun to do. Cecil, when I start fishing my pond and land one of the 10+ inchers again, I'll send you a submission, until then, for this thread, I'll quit making observations on fish that probably are not hybrids.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 02:26 AM
DIED :

Here is some id info .

From Wisc. Fish ID system. You can take this info or better yet download the software and look at all the pics and descriptions etc.

http://wiscfish.org/


GSF
Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.

BG
BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.


HBG
Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers

Let us know what you see and find out.

These should help

GSF



GSF gill rakers



HBG


HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers


Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 04:43 PM
much obliged ewest...., this is really helpful. funny part is i never thought i would be performing such things on these fish...o.k. sir, open wide, first we'll just measure your gape, now get on your side, let me count your gill rakes.....oh no...i am sorry to report, but you have GSFitus.

At some point, I'll report back w/ field data...and thanks again, my little brain is swelling w/ new found fish knowledge.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 06:59 PM
We'll make a Larval Trawler out of you yet, DIED.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 08:48 PM
ROFLOL \:D \:D :p
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: HBG pic/question - 07/06/06 11:46 PM
ewest, thank you so much for your response. It is the best description I have found yet about HBG down the line. I saved it to describe to folks the reasoning behind the sotkcing or not stocking of this species.

From a a field data standpoint I just know that I have been to ponds stocked with GG some years back and they had what appeared to be GSF and they were farily small thus the reason for calling me.

ML will help us with this and time will tell us the results.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/07/06 01:43 AM
Thanks Greg you are kind to say that. I agree that lepomis stunting and over population is a serious problem that you guys get called about often. I think it is worse up north because they seem to have more BG stunting than we do down here. I don't yet have a full understanding of all the whys and how's of that situation. Much to learn.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/09/06 11:56 PM
Dave Willis, if you see this, could you comment and also tell us about the HBG in Lake Hendricks?
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 12:04 AM
Norm -- I don't know of any hybrids there. I think it's primarily a walleye-perch lake?? Could you mean Lake Cochrane, just north of there?
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 01:23 PM
Yes Dave, Lake Cochrane is the one. My mistake. As I understand it, this lake has a long-term population of HBG in the presence of predators. A history of this lake might give us some insights into the dynamics of HBG in a larger lake.
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 01:41 PM
Well, Lake Cochrane is rather unusual for a South Dakota water body -- but similar to a lot of the smaller MN and WI natural lakes, I believe. Cochrane is a small (330 acres) natural lake (glacial origin) and has good water quality. In fact, it was one of 5 lakes to maintain fish communities during the dust bowl in the 30s. The unique thing about the lake is that the submergent, rooted vegetation goes out to about the 14 foot contour. As a result, more than half of the lake bottom is covered by plants, which Norm knows is very rare for a SD natural lake. Most of our natural lakes are shallow and windswept.

For decades, this lake has had an abundance of natural hybrids, mostly between bluegills and green sunfish (although there are a few pumpkinseeds in there, and once in a while a hybrid looks more like a pumpkinseed). This high incidence of natural hybridization often occurs in one of two situations, both of which function in Lake Cochrane. Sunfish apparently select mates through visual cues, and natural hybridization is more common in lakes with an overabundance of aquatic vegetation. Apparently, visual cues can be obscured in the dense vegetation. Secondly, natural hybridization is more likely when one species is abundant and the other is not. In the case of Lake Cochrane, there are plenty of bluegills, but the green sunfish abundance is pretty low.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 02:25 PM
Dave great info. Does the lake have much shallow turbidity along with the plants? That might also increase the probability of crossing due to masking of visual cues.

Any indication of alternative male reproduction strategies in GSF (sneakers/cuckholders)? If so that may account for some natural crossing. That is male GSF sneakers/cuckholders moving in on male BG nests just as the female BG deposits her eggs. Could also happen with BG sneakers moving in on GSF nest as the female GSF deposits her eggs.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 05:27 PM
Dave, are these natural hybrids showing hybrid depression or are the predators eating the less vigorous fish? Also, are the hybrids reproducing or are they dependant on BG and GSF constantly hybridizing? If the BG and GSF are constantly hybridizing, do you see any hybrid vigor in the offspring? Thanks for all of this info.
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: HBG pic/question - 07/10/06 06:31 PM
Ewest -- water clarity is relatively high within the lake, and within the plant beds. It does get some algae, but it's mostly green algae, not the pea-soup blue-green blooms we get on some of the more productive lakes. We've never taken a look at GSF cuckolds. Probably need to do that!

Norm -- I can't answer such hard questions! \:\) I honestly don't know how we would see/measure hybrid depression. I would expect "hybrid vigor" in the f1 generation, but who knows what percentage of the parentals are actually pure. The last time up there, I grabbed what appeared to be a parental male bluegill to show a student the long gill rakers, and it had short stubby rakers (i.e., green sunfish gill rakers!). As a result, I really can't tell how much reproduction comes from supposed parentals and how much from the hybrid swarm. This lake has had the hybrids for decades.

Interestingly, we've seen an increase in quality of the sunfish in recent years. The largemouth bass density has gradually increased (in fact, their growth has slowed and their average size is down; just like a pond!) over the last decade, and the size of the sunfish has increased. We now occasionally see a parental male bluegill of 8 inches, which never happened in the past.
Posted By: Norm Kopecky Re: HBG pic/question - 07/12/06 02:54 PM
Thanks Dave! From what you've described, you don't see 10" fish which is what we probably would expect from pure bluegill. Is that correct?
Posted By: Dave Willis Re: HBG pic/question - 07/12/06 06:06 PM
Norm -- yes, but there's always a but, right? \:\) It's complicated by the decades of too-high abundance on the overall sunfish swarm. We'll see if we ever get to a 10-inch bluegill now that LMB density is so much higher. I think that I need a double-length career (lifespan) in fisheries. Then, I could spend the 2nd lifespan trying to answer the questions that finally got correctly asked by the end of the first career.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/13/06 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Willis:
.......I think that I need a double-length career (lifespan) in fisheries. Then, I could spend the 2nd lifespan trying to answer the questions that finally got correctly asked by the end of the first career.
Dr. Willis, interestingly, my dad says exactly the same thing, spending over 50 years devoted to geochemical research, now that he's 86, everything is organized in his mind, and he knows he could solve exactly how the earth's crust formed but he'd need one more career to prove it.

its cool that some folks find that kind of passion in their life.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/21/06 11:43 PM
Thanks Shorty for providing this HBG pic and post . Read here. http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003085;p=1#000004

[img]http://heartlandforums.com/forums/album_picm.php?pic_id=99[/img]
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 01:06 PM
Here are 2 HBG pics provided by bz.




Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 01:47 PM
does anyone else think the top fish has more than 50% BG in it? Seems to have way more BG shape and smaller mouth than a typical HBG.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 02:54 PM
BM :

That was one purpose for starting this thread. I have noticed 2 different HBG looks. Here is the first para of the thread. bz's top fish looks like the second type (more BG look).

Different sources (written and oral reports) indicate that there is a differences between the 2 BG x GSF crosses. One is the reported difference in % males with mBG x fGSF cross = 97% male and the mGSF x fBG cross = 69% male. Does anyone know what each looks like and are they different in appearance. I keep seeing 2 types of pics that are different over and over.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 03:32 PM
Ewest - IMO the two different pictures by bz are probably due to the time frame in which they were taken, the darker of the two being taken when the HBG are in still in spawning/nesting mode in the spring and early summer. The second lighter picture is very recent and it is likely all spawning and nesting behavior has likley ceased for the year.

Just from my own observations and discussions on PB, in your std. hatchery cross, a male BG X female green sunfish cross the male offspring will exhibit more coloration and body characteristics of a green sunfish than a BG. In the natural HBG that I have seen in our pond between a female BG and a male green sunfish the male offspring have size and shape characterics mostly of a BG and will resemble a pumkinseed somewhat in appearance. To put it more simply, IMO the male offspring of crosses have a general tendency to heavily resemble the female of whatever parent species they are crossed with. Now I could be wrong so I am eager to hear other opinions, but that is my current thinking on this issue.

It will be intersting to see if Bruce gets some RES/BG hybrids. If I am right they should resemble RES much more than a BG due to the sex of the parents, male BG X female RES. I am guessing the gill rakes will look more like a RES than a BG. I would expect the opposite in a male RES X female BG cross.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 03:57 PM
Shorty :

Thanks for the info. \:\) I will have to digest it some more wrt the male/female genetics and effects.

WRT your first para on time of year see the link below to 5 BG pics same time, same pond location, during the spawn but all different colors of fish (and some changed with in 10 seconds of being caught) . There is a lot more to this - see the other current thread link 2 below.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000318;p=5

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003227;p=1#000004
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 04:14 PM
Thanks ewest! Sounds like there are multiple parimeters influencing color and appearence in the sunfish family.

One other thing that could influence color appearence is sexual maturation. I would expect an imature male to be lighter and more duller in appearence than a mature BG, and that a mature male BG would aslo be darker and exhibit more color. It seems reasonable that HBG would also follow these lines in terms of maturation.
Posted By: bz Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 05:15 PM
Some more info on my pics. I caught 11 fish that day. About 1/3 of them were colored like the second picture. The others were colored just like the first picture which was taken in May so I didn't take a picture of them. My fish are all the standard mBG x fGSF cross and according to the hatchery were fertilized manually in the hatchery so they are all the same cross.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 06:03 PM
Shorty I think you are right . Is the rain the reason for the reduced sechi readings (muddy or plankton bloom)?

bz thanks for that info. I will try to find some info on the observations by you and Shorty and report back.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 06:56 PM
 Quote:
Is the rain the reason for the reduced sechi readings (muddy or plankton bloom)?
e-west, a little bit of both, if I have calculated right our pond has received 4.1 million gallons of water since Aug. 3rd. \:\)
27,000 gallons per 1" of 1 surface acre of water X 9.5 surface acres = 256,500 gallons, X a 16" rise in the water level since Aug 3 = 4,104,000 gallons of new water. The pond is 9.9 surface acres when at full pool. Since the 3rd we have had over 7" of rain, 3.4" of that coming down just last Thursday and Friday. I would like to hear from Nedoc one of these days, they got more rain in his area last week than we did.

The reduced water clarity is cutting the light off the deeper aquatic vegetation causing some die off, which in turn is feeding a mild algea bloom along with nutrients in the run off from the farm fields above. The water looks more green than brown at the moment. Right now the sechi disc readings vary from area to area, last Friday the shallow end was very dingy, yesterday the dingy water was now down by the dam where I took the 36" reading, the shallow end has cleared up significantly in the last two days. I suspect the seschi disk readings will be back up to 60" with the next 10 days if we don't get a strong bloom going. Our pond has always cleared up very quickly if it muds up from a heavy down pour.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 08:55 PM
ewest, one more observation, do you remember some of the pictures of the Georgia Giants posted by Deb? Do you remember the kid holding up that giant sunfish? Was that sunfish a male or a female? Did it resemble a BG or GSF more? ;\)
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 09:33 PM
Shorty I think it looked more like a male RES. ;\) Good to hear the Neb. contingent is getting some much needed rain. \:\)
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 10:00 PM
ewest - here is the picure I was thinking of. ;\)



My thoughts are that male offspring of crosses tend to take on more primary charateristics of the female. Based on just this picure the small number of female offspring may have more dominant charateristics of the male parent. ;\)

BTW - consider it just a crazy thought for the moment. ;\)
Posted By: trialsguy Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 11:43 PM
GOOD GRIEF!!!! I want some of those fish! How in the world do you get them to grow so big, Is that a male Hybrid bluegill?
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 08/21/06 11:59 PM
Trials, that is "Bubba" and is a freak of nature. He is possibly an F-10 or more offspring of HBG. The pond was drained nearly down after 20 yrs. They thought they had harvested all the fish. Then they drained it all. Turns out he was left alone with zillions of minnows. Just like me at the barbeque buffet. No room left for dessert. \:\)
Posted By: trialsguy Re: HBG pic/question - 08/22/06 02:38 AM
He HE He Burger you made me chuckle in my bowl of ice cream.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/22/06 01:28 PM
Dang - I thought this was "Bubba"


Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 08/22/06 01:59 PM
same fish, Shorty.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 08/22/06 02:24 PM
Is one of the pictures from before it was mounted and then painted? Both the color and ear tab look very different in each of the pictures.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 08/22/06 02:53 PM
send Deb a PM and ask her...
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 02/16/07 05:14 PM
Jeff's GSF ?



Shorty's possible (?) GSF.




From this thread:

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=003841
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 02/22/07 07:13 PM
From Shorty


Ewest, I finally found a picture of a male GSF X female BG hybrid. We had some of these in our pond that occured naturally, ours looked identical to this but with no yellow tinting on the fins. Notice how similar in appearence they are to a pumkinseed.


Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 03/27/07 03:13 AM
HBG from Shawn. See the thread below.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000425


Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 04/21/07 01:59 AM
Pic of GSF from Bill Cody.
Note from Cody: I am not real positive that these small fish are pure green sunfish since they came from a pond that experienced 16 or more generations(yrs) of reproduction from HBG. These fish look very much like GSF to me.




From
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000437;p=1#000005
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/29/07 02:02 PM
HBG From Bruce , ML Smith and Ryan from this thread.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000653;p=1






Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/01/07 02:45 AM
F-2 HBG from bz's pond.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000644;p=1

original HBG




F-2 or F-Xs







Posted By: Schroeder Re: HBG pic/question - 07/27/07 12:23 PM
Last night I was chumming for catfish with chunks of hotdog when I landed this beauty. Never had I caught a brim larger than 3 to 4 inches, as the CC totally dominate. I was so excited I couldn't wait to get him back in the pond. Trouble is, I thought it was a RES and now I see it was a green sunfish. Actually, I believe this to be the offspring of HBG stocked about 6 years ago. Do you agree? I stocked 4 to 6 inch BG and RES in May of this year. Wanting to get these established, was I wrong to have not removed the GSF? It looked to be stuffed with eggs, but at this time of year I'm thinking instead he may have just finished eating a bunch of hotdog pieces. HBG Offspring


Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: HBG pic/question - 07/27/07 03:19 PM
It does have a lot of the classic GSF markings, brilliant green streaks, yellow fins, large mouth. It is more "round" shape than my GSF. Interesting. I'm certainly no expert but it looks like a hybrid to me.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/27/07 07:30 PM
What do you think guys ?
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/27/07 08:11 PM
Mostly GSF features, but I think it's not (body) shaped like a full blooded Greenie. I'd say an Fx like Schroeder speculated.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/27/07 10:34 PM
Fx, IMHO

body too rounded, mouth is big but not as big as pure GSF, pec fin not as rounded as pure GSF. it also displays the mottling common to all the HBGs shown above (except for maybe shawn's and ryan's fish). you can definitely see GSF traits though, fin color, emerald streaks..

nice fish schroeder, and yeah, please be careful what you say around yer fish w/ strong GSF genes ;\)
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 07/28/07 03:10 AM
Never mistake a greenie for a redear. Could be the kiss of death if your RES find out.

It was a nice, fat HBG, though.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/28/07 12:03 PM
You guys are getting pretty good at this !!! \:\)

Bluegill, Lepomis macrochirus


Physical Description:
· Deep, very compressed body
· Short, round, dark-margined earflap
· Black spot in rear of second dorsal fin
· Small, terminal mouth
· Large eye
· Tail fin edge almost straight with rounded lobes
· Pectoral fin elongate and pointed
· Vertical, dark-colored bars on side
· Side is blue or blue-green with a purple luster
- There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.
- Pectoral fin: Notice the long pointed shape of the fin.


Green Sunfish, Lepomis cyanellus

Physical Description:
· Deep, compressed body
· Black opercular spot with a pale margin
· Very large, terminal mouth
· Large eye
· Tail fin lobes rounded
· Pectoral fin rounded
· Dark body with iridescent blue stripes
· Posterior base of dorsal fin with black spot
- There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.
- There are 44-51 lateral line scales, and a solid/dusky dorsal


- Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers
- Notice intermediate appearance of color pattern, mouth, and pectoral fin; opercular flap is bluegill-like.
Posted By: Schroeder Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/07 01:12 PM
I know you all are afraid of the Green Sunfish Association, and I too am a bit fearful they may come looking for me. But does anyone dare comment on the negative impact these HBG will have on my attempt to establish a BG/RES population? Now that I know they are reproducing, are they so aggressive as to push the other species out of their nests? Will they cross with the BG or RES, degrading the gene pool? (Sorry GSF Asociation members, I mean impacting the gene pool in a manner inconsistent with my objectives!)
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/07 02:23 PM
schroeder, i cant speak to the deteriorating genetic offspring of HBG, and how these will affect yer BG and RES.

all i can tell you is that i am trying pure (well probably as close to pure as anybody can get) pure BG, pure RES, and pure GSF in the same pond at the same time the results of which wont be known for at least a year.....will be watching and keeping folks posted.

as of now, all three are "swimmingly" co-habitating. all three have or are successfully spawning.

i have relatively clear water, so cross breeding should be kept to a minimum.

my goal of course is to maintain all three lepomis species, and grow them to large sizes, and not worry too much about Fx offspring....its a science experiement ;\)

one thing to keep in mind is that any of the three can cross breed with the others, so no matter what, depending on the kind or clarity of your water and pond structure/weeds, you mix the species you risk getting any type of Fx offspring....some really cool, others not so cool.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/07 02:27 PM
HBG have both positive and negative aspects. Initial growth is fast and they are aggressive but they are mostly male (65 to 99 %) and there offspring are fewer (1000 vs 50000 for BG)and tend to degrade (outbreeding depression). HBG's ability to cross with BG or GSF is uncertain (most think -yes but limited). I have seen nothing on HBG X RES. Here is some info.


See pg 9 hybrid bream
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/07 03:30 PM
My experience and $0.02, Schroeder.

I stocked equal numbers of RES, HBG, and BG in my pond, like, 5 years ago. I have not seen hide or hair of a HBG, or anything exhibiting any GSF traits, for over 3 years.

The HBG were simply overwhelmed by BG numbers into a situation where I suspect they are still present, but will only be caught a teeny, tiny fraction of the time. I think this is one of the reasons CW says not to stock HBG with BG - what advantages HBG actually have over BG (like limited population numbers) are voided by BG in the same pond.

As ewest mentioned, HBG CAN backcross with BG; I feel the possibility of this is pretty small and is ignorable for those of us without a compelling reason for maintaining pureblood BG (like Cecil Baird, who has monetary reasons for doing so).

I am sure HBG could be crossed with RES, at least in a lab/hatchery setting, but feel this is even less likely in a pond.
Posted By: Schroeder Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/07 05:31 PM
Theo, as usual you $0.02 is worth much, much more. Thanks for always taking care of us newbys so quickly.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 10/16/07 01:46 AM
Shorty's hybrid lepomis thread and pics.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=99650#Post99650





The next three pictures are are from 5 minutes later after the hybrid had been in a black bucket for a little bit.








Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/09/08 11:00 PM
Here's a couple of great HBG pics from the NEFGA forum.







These fish are not specifically identified as a particular sunfish cross. I'd welcome any comments on their possible lineage.

They are obviously big specimens.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/09/08 11:18 PM
I guess that I can't say for an absolute fact that the second and third pictures are of a hybrid. It's obviously got a lot of GS in it.

Any comments from members of the GS afficionados?
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 02/09/08 11:50 PM
The first 2 look like standard HBG to me. The third - all I can say is it looks like it is going to explode. \:o --
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 02/09/08 11:52 PM
Yep - don't point that thing at the camera.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/09/08 11:54 PM
I couldn't tell at first, but the angler states that the second and third pictures are of the same fish.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 02/10/08 05:53 PM
nice fishes....none strike me as pure (or close to pure GSF), definitely hybrids...my first reaction is the last pic is same fish as second pic. you can see GSF traits especially the fin margin colorations on first fish.....traits against GSF... body shape not right, mouths not big enough for size of fish, and they have that pretty mottling pattern somewhat similar to bz's fish and other hybrids posted here.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: HBG pic/question - 02/10/08 10:22 PM
I think the 2nd and 3rd photos are of the very rare, illusive, and infamous female hybrid bluegill (HBG). I think she's potential center fold material.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 02/10/08 10:34 PM
Bill !!!!! Good eyes !!! I think you are right. Bruce you posted a first and rare female HBG and a ripe one at that.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/10/08 10:35 PM
I have to completely agree with you guys. I think that's a female HBG. Didn't even cross my mind until Bill brought it up.
Posted By: dave in el dorado ca Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 02:22 AM
its got a huge eartab for a female......but that kind of belly (full of eggs?) not normally seen in males.....unless they drink regular MD instead of DMD...
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 02:24 AM
The first "D" helps a little, but it's no guarantee.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 02:25 AM
DIED, Some females have big ones.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 02:28 AM
If I'm not mistaken, in some hybrids you can get some funky mixture of sexual characteristics. I've heard that some HSB have ovaries, and some rudimentary male organs in the same fish.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 04:13 AM
The Urogenital opening is oval and the area full of eggs (fat).
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 05:22 AM
Dang it! I always forget about the urogenital opening thing.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: HBG pic/question - 02/11/08 04:12 PM
I think I've posted these elsewhere...

Standard BG probably Female April 2006


HBG May 2006


F2 HBGxBG June 2007 This fish may have survived because it was likely from the first or second spawn after by pond was built/stocked. I caught another about an inch smaller last year. Originally I stocked 25 HBG and 250 BG along with some fatheads almost a year before adding fingerling bass. I have trapped hundreds of 2-3" BG and have not found anymore F2s


Posted By: trapper Re: HBG pic/question - 05/24/08 02:04 PM
i was fishing tuesday at my small pond 6/10 acre an 26 feet deep and we caught many bluegill i think were hybryds as they looked like smallmouth bass but were blueish green in color and shaped like a bass. some were 10 to 11 inches an one was 12 an 1/2 inches. this pond was stocked with cc an redears....coppernose...and hybrd bluegill 4 an 1/2 years ago it has two sweeney feeders on it an it looks like the coppernose anhyryds an cc are reproduceing as it has not been restocked since other than 10 pounds of fatheads were tossed in. the hybrds(?) also had the edges of their fins in a yellowish orange color. all fish but cc where released as we will go back in 2-3 weeks to catch just blugill. cc that were kept for dinner went from 1 1/2 to 9 3/4 pounds. if these were hydryds how much bigger will they get? they were a blast on a 4pd ultralite rig an small spinners. thanks for the replys
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 06/29/08 12:58 PM
HBG pic from Tom F . From this thread http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=123322#Post123322 .


Posted By: Rossbow Re: HBG pic/question - 07/08/08 03:10 PM
The two middle pix look more like warmouth than HBG. But I might be wrong.
Posted By: Shorty Re: HBG pic/question - 07/09/08 02:36 PM
Heres another natural Hybrid for the files, this one is from the 20 acre private community lake in Lincoln.


Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/08 04:42 PM
Take a look at this bluegill/green sunfish hybrid. It almost seems fake it's so big! \:\)

http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/photo/show?id=2036984%3APhoto%3A5692
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/08 06:03 PM
Could that be a GG ? \:o Color looks the same. ;\)
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/08 06:32 PM
It's got that lumpy huge Lepomis look.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/08 12:51 AM
that thing is grotesque!
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 12/17/08 02:50 PM
Nice pics of documented pumpkinseed hybrids - via Cecil

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141748&fpart=1


Pumpkinseed X Northern Bluegill



Pumpkinseed X Central Longear



Pumpkinseed X Redear



Pumpkinseed X Green Sunfish



Pumpkinseed X Red Spotted Sunfish



By :
Dr. James Wetzel
Bluegill Cultigen Project
Aquaculture Research
Department of Agriculture and Environmental Sciences
Lincoln University
Jefferson City, MO
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 12/17/08 08:03 PM
FWIW, one thing that I find particularly compelling about these pictures is the PS X RES looks to me exactly like a pure RES.

Maybe just more evidence of the similarity between these two species.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: HBG pic/question - 12/17/08 09:11 PM
 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
FWIW, one thing that I find particularly compelling about these pictures is the PS X RES looks to me exactly like a pure RES.

I rarely deem to argue with the Master, but I find the red opercule border less extensive than on a pure RES - more like the little dab of red on a PS. And to me, the side pattern on a pure RES is almost organized into vertical bars. The side pattern on the PSxRES appears completely disorganized.

 Quote:
Maybe just more evidence of the similarity between these two species.

For sure, as called out by ewest's Centrarchidae Family Tree:

Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 12/17/08 10:17 PM
I will look for info on the PS X RES cross like viability , morphology , ect and report back. I will add that I don't recall seeing any info on that cross.I will look for info on the PS X RES cross like viability , morphology , ect and report back. I will add that I don't recall seeing any info on that cross.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 12/18/08 03:56 AM
It appears that BG , PS and GSF are common crosses but that RES and PS crosses are not common because in the wild there populations do not overlap like those of BG , GSF and PS. PS and RES are closely related genetically. Will keep looking but I don't doubt that RES X PS are possible due to the genetic closeness.

Thought you might get a laugh out of the quip below - one of the writers was female. \:o - \:D



HYBRIDIZATION AND INTROGRESSION AMONG SPECIES

OF SUNFISH (LEPOMIS): ANALYSIS BY MITOCHONDRIAL

DNA AND ALLOZYME MARKERS

JOHN C. AVISE AND NANCY C. SAUNDERS



Female Lepomis also have behavioral predispositions

toward prosmiscuity, since observations indicate that “many females may

visit one nest and one female may visit several nests” (BREDER 1936). Our data

suggest that absence of conspecific pairing partners and mating stimuli for

females of rarer species may be an important factor in increasing the likelihood

of interspecific hybridization.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 12/18/08 05:29 AM
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
The side pattern on the PSxRES appears completely disorganized.



Disorganized is my middle name.

Refer to my signature line.
Posted By: mikel Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 02:47 AM
When I stocked my pond with bluegill I may have messed up. I put red ear, coppernose and hybrid bluegill back in January 2007. Last summer I put some regular bluegill. With this combination I understand now that the hybrid will breed and can go back to green sunfish. If this is the case have I messed up my pond?
Posted By: Walt Foreman Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 03:22 AM
It's not messed up as long as you maintain plenty of predators (bass) to keep the green sunfish thinned out. If the bass population gets low, the GSF will probably take off, at which point you have a problem. But as long as you have plenty of bass, no problem.
Posted By: burgermeister Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 05:07 AM
stocking numbers would help, but most have said that after a few years, there is no sign of the hybrids or GSF as the bluegill will snuff them out with numbers. I would just enjoy the agressive nature of the hybrids, and the, the the, green sunfish....there, I said it, JHAP and DIED.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 11:29 AM
I'm not sure what your goals are but your original coppernose will also cross with the hybrids. You can bet your bottom dollar that sunfish of any kind will over spawn and stunt without bass as a predator. As said above, the GSF only spawn annually and won't last forever.

You haven't messed up anything.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 01:51 PM
For about the 400th time here, HBG cannot turn back into GSF.
Posted By: ewest Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 02:27 PM
You should be ok. This assumes you did not stock lots more HBG than BG and CNBG. First you did not list GSF as a stocked species so there are no GSF in the pond. HBG cannot turn into GSF. They can reproduce and possibly back-cross with the BG and CNBG. You do not want the HBG X HBG offspring in the pond but they would only be very small numbers. The more the HBG cross with BG and CNBG the more the GSF genes in the offspring are diluted. Because BG reproduce in far greater numbers than HBG over time the GSF genes from the HBG are diluted to the point of being irrelevant.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 03:36 PM
 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
I would just enjoy the agressive nature of the hybrids, and the, the the, green sunfish....there, I said it, JHAP and DIED.


Improving the universe, one person at a time.

We are the GSA.


Posted By: burgermeister Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 03:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
For about the 400th time here, HBG cannot turn back into GSF.


So true, but, the theory of relativity says that when two of the hybrids cross, a number will look similar to the parents,,,a number will look more like the 1st gen. parent of 1 species, and some more like the other 1st gen. parent.

Yes, no, whacked?
Posted By: mikel Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 08:13 PM
If not much trouble does anyone have a good picture of each bluegill. I know the redear and think I know the coppernose by those beauties that Mr George has shown us. I'm not sure of the difference of hybrid or regular bluegill & wouldn't know the GSF if it bit me.

I like what each of you have said especially about hybrid not evolving into GSF. Thanks guys for your input, hope you have some pic's of the blue gill families.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 08:17 PM
There are several threads on here reference sunfish ID... The most commonly referred to one is in the archives section:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

Also, look at the beginning of this thread. It dates back a couple years with tons of pictures and what people think each fish is...

I will say this, sunfish ID for a person who isn't familiar with them can be very tough. Even I have to slow down and take a closer look every now and then. Throw in the fact that sunfish often hybridize in ponds naturally and you really can get your head spinning! Often times you know what species are in the pond, so guesstimating the hybrid is easier...
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/21/10 08:39 PM
Here are a couple outside Pond Boss links that I like for IDing sunfish and/or other species:

http://www.tnfish.org/FishIdentificationID_TWRA/TWRA_Sunfish_Identification_Key.htm

http://bio.slu.edu/mayden/sunfish/sun_key/1.html

http://www.tnfish.org/PhotoGalleryFish_TWRA/FishPhotoGallery_TWRA/TWRAFishPhotoGallery.htm

http://www.wiscfish.org/fishid/ This link is good as it gives a lot of hybrid photos when showing the pure adult species.

Sunfish family tree:



Posted By: ewest Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/25/10 03:05 PM

Posted By: adirondack pond Re: Hybrid bluegill - 01/26/10 02:30 AM
Excellent references to sunfish ID, I bookmarked this topic, Thanks guys.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/10 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: ewest
DIED's HBG from the link below.

Fish 1


Fish 3




http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000485;p=3#000043



Ok now these resemble mine alot so is there still a possibility mine could be HBG and Not GSF?

Cody Post script, added from Ewest's July 30. 2010 post below regarding the above pictures: ""Those pics were posted by me from DIED on the assumption they were HBG. That was the question. After posting the pics the consensus among the fish id crew was that DIED had GSF not HBG.""
I agree with ewest and some others that these fish from DIED have many characteristics of typical green sunfish (GSF). I do not consider them HBG.



Attached picture Big HBG.jpg
Posted By: Todd3138 Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/10 09:56 PM
Yeah, I think that's been pretty well covered - HBG are very often a cross of BG x GSF. THEY WILL HAVE SOME GSF CHARACTERISTICS! That does not make them GSF. It's like the labradoodle dog (why anyone would do this to a perfectly good Lab I'll never know! laugh ):



This one looks a lot like a Lab, but it's not. Remember that just because a HBG may look like a GSF, it's not. Subsequent generations may take on more characteristics of GSF, but they aren't GSF.

Stop sweating this one, MRHELLO. Seriously. I would really doubt you were sold straight GSF (had you been, JHAP and the GSA would have made a run on the hatchery and bought up the entire stock! grin ). You have spent an awful lot of time worrying about that and I, as a total rank amateur, just think it's wasted effort for you. You've gotten a bunch of great suggestions for how to move forward with the pond, so focus your energies there and I really think you'll be much happier as you start seeing progress versus spinning your wheels over the HBG issue. Now onward, friends!
Posted By: Gflo Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/10 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Todd3138
Yeah, I think that's been pretty well covered - HBG are very often a cross of BG x GSF. THEY WILL HAVE SOME GSF CHARACTERISTICS! That does not make them GSF. It's like the labradoodle dog (why anyone would do this to a perfectly good Lab I'll never know! laugh ):



This one looks a lot like a Lab, but it's not. Remember that just because a HBG may look like a GSF, it's not. Subsequent generations may take on more characteristics of GSF, but they aren't GSF.



That isn't a labradoodle either! That dog looks like a mutt, not a labradoodle (hybrid), nor a pure bred lab or poodle (unless the hair is cut short in the picture. Hard to tell if they had been groomed fairly recently, and my eyes fail me sometimes).

Hybrid x Hybrid does not = a hybrid in the vast majority of cases, mostly yields mutts.

Hybrid x pure bred will only with low probability = a hybrid (mostly yields "mutts"... Just a numbers game at this point)

Pure bred x pure bred = hybrid

It is statistically improbable that a hybrid would revert back to either of its parental phenotypes except in a few freak of nature incidents, which pretty much means it will not happen as i understand it.

That dog is adorable by the way.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/10 10:32 PM
I know I had asked for JHAP’s input being the GSA ring leader but have not seen one note from him trying to convert me.

I know I should move on but it is hard to when there is a possibility I was ripped off. I would like to think even if I was sold GSF it was not on purpose. But since most of my fish do resemble GSF I have a concern. I am sure that each time these are crossed they may be different.

But considering a member on here got his HBG at the same place as I did and they look nothing alike that is what concerns me.

Also the fact that I seem to have more fry than one I would expect from a HBG.

I think I need to just wait this thing out and see what happens by this time next year as I will probably be surprised once my LMB get bigger. I just want to make sure I should take the same approach rather the fish are HBG or GSF.

If there is a different approach I want to consider them and go from there.

Thank you everyone for your help on this, and sorry to waste everyone’s time on an issue that is probably not a big deal to most members.
Posted By: Todd3138 Re: HBG pic/question - 07/30/10 11:48 PM
It's certainly not a waste of time, MRHELLO, but rather a point that I guess I, and probably some of the others who have been chipping in with thoughts for you, just don't want to see you hang up on when you could be moving your pond management plan forward instead. I totally understand about not wanting to be ripped off, but if you got GSF, you got GSF.

I think your point about just wanting to know if there's a different management plan or set of options is well made. I also believe that may be the first time we've heard you put it that way and I am hopeful that someone will come along and offer you management suggestions for HBG versus GSF. Then, armed with that specific info, you can begin to develop your overall plan and start executing when the time is right.

Gflo, I got that pic off of a labradoodle website and they claim it's a genuine labradoodle pup, I think somewhere around six or seven months old. The older dogs were a lot more curly, but I think the picture illustrated my point pretty well that the hybrid of two pure strains may resemble one of the parent species more than the other. And you're right about it being a cute dog - probably that's because it looks so much like a Lab! (Can you tell I'm heavily biased in favor of Labs?!)
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/10 03:03 AM
Those pics were posted by me from DIED on the assumption they were HBG. That was the question. After posting the pics the consensus among the fish id crew was that DIED had GSF not HBG.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 07/31/10 10:50 AM
Well I think that pretty much sums it up. I have GSF not HBG so my question is should I change the plan as to add BG since the GSF spawn more than the HBG?

Should I add more LMB?

Should I throw them on the bank?

Will GSF eat their own young?

Would GSF help keep the Crappie and LMB spawns under control?

Will the Crappie or CC eat many of the GSF?

Will they take to pellets and would this get them to eating size so I at least get something for what I paid.

What if anything can I requets from or do to the farm that sold me these?

Thanks
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: HBG pic/question - 08/01/10 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
I know I had asked for JHAP’s input being the GSA ring leader but have not seen one note from him trying to convert me.

As I said in the PM between us, I was out of town.

If you desire my opinion here it is but keep in mind I'm JAIWAK not an expert:

The photos of your fish that you have posted seem to me to have a high percentage of GSF in them. People more expert than I have given you feedback related to their appearance.

IMHO and once again this is just my opinion, GSF are not the Satan spawn that will ruin your pond. Having been a member here for a few years I have found that most folks don't like GSF for two main reasons (1) in many ponds the GSF don't grow very large and (2) because of the size of their mouth and their aggression level they compete directly with juvenile predator fish (smaller LMB, probably most sized SMB, etc).

Some members here have been blessed with larger GSF. If you ever catch a GSF that weighs a pound or more you will laugh at BG. IMHO, pound for pound GSF are one of the hardest fighting sunfish. They will aggressively strike a larger lure and will fight like mad when hooked. The first time I caught a large GSF I was sure that I had caught a medium sized LMB. Originally my pond had only LMB, GSF and Bullhead. Later I stocked Gambusia, BG and RES. If I could reverse time I (which at present the GSA's time machine is not completely functional) I would not have added the BG. I would have added the Gam's and RES and managed the pond for LMB and GSF, but that is just me.

As for your questions from a non expert:

Should I add more LMB?
I don't recall the size of your pond and the number of predators that you have in the pond already and I'm no expert but I wouldn't just continue to throw more predators into your pond. Cull out the fish you don't want would be my idiotic advice.

Should I throw them on the bank?
Throw all other fish besides GSF onto the bank. GSF should be treated with dignity and respect. If you feel the need to cull GSF then raise the fish toward heaven and beg forgiveness prior to ending it's magnificent life.

Will GSF eat their own young?
LMB will eat LMB young and I'm betting GSF would as eat GSF young as well. It is after all survival of the fittest and GSF are good at surviving.

Would GSF help keep the Crappie and LMB spawns under control?
Many, many factors come into play as to whether or not one species is able to dominate another species. I think it would depend upon the ratio of GSF to Crappie and LMB that exist in the pond, the success of the recruitment of GSF versus the other fish, the amount of vegetation in the pond, etc, etc.

Will the Crappie or CC eat many of the GSF?
Make up your mind, do you want GSF to control Crappie or Crappie to control GSF. laugh

Will they take to pellets and would this get them to eating size so I at least get something for what I paid.
GSF will definitely eat pellets. DaveInElDorado added feed trained BG to his pond and began a feeding regiment. GSF immediately took to pellets. Observation at feeding time makes it easy to determine which fish (BG or GSF) is eating the pellets. From my observations BG seem to "attack" the pellets using a more shallow attack, GSF rocket up from the bottom hit the pellet and dive back down.

What if anything can I requets from or do to the farm that sold me these?
Have you contacted them and talked to them? Expressed your concern to them? Are they a reputable fish farm?

As I said I'm no expert but you wanted my feedback (probably because you don't know me very well, most folks here know better than to ask my advice laugh ) so there it is. Some of my response is tongue in cheek. No offense is intended. IMHO you are way, way over worrying this issue. Take a deep breath and relax.

It has been my observation that new pond owners tend to way over worry about their pond. Read some of my first posts and you'll find that I did as well. As long as your income doesn't depend upon the pond then there is no need (again IMHO) to over worry these issues. Decide what fish you desire and begin to manage for them.

Nature has a way of imposing it's own plan upon you so if you don't learn to relax somewhat then you'll go insane.

Trust me, I know.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 08/02/10 02:36 PM
I know it seems like I am making a much bigger deal out of this then I should, but I think it is because this one going to be the first pond I stocked and was looking forward to the spring and fall of 2011 as I figured I would be able to take a few out then to eat.

Well I first went with the plan that was given to me which seems to be too many kinds of fish and too many total fish for my pond.

Then it appeared that I was sold the wrong fish, which I may or may not have been.

Last the GSF could made it to the pond on their own and not sure how or why.

So I am sure everything I put in there was eaten with the exception of the CC.

Had I known they were in there I would have just put in a few CC, some LMB and probably still a few Crappie as they are one of my favorites. I know from reading on here the Crappie is not recommended and requires much management, but I figured since we like to eat fish and enjoy fishing I could give them a shot. I figured if they appeared to stop growing or too many in the pond I would start keeping as many as I could to eat.

Anyway since you are a GSF fan (which is why I wanted you input as well) how are you managing yours and is that you main fish you work around?

Thanks
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 04/24/11 02:34 AM
Sparkplug's HBG - 1 lb --- female at that.


Posted By: esshup Re: HBG pic/question - 04/24/11 02:43 AM
Congratulations! Now for the 1 1/4# one. wink
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 04/26/11 06:25 PM
Originally Posted By: dave in el dorado ca
schroeder, i cant speak to the deteriorating genetic offspring of HBG, and how these will affect yer BG and RES.

all i can tell you is that i am trying pure (well probably as close to pure as anybody can get) pure BG, pure RES, and pure GSF in the same pond at the same time the results of which wont be known for at least a year.....will be watching and keeping folks posted.

as of now, all three are "swimmingly" co-habitating. all three have or are successfully spawning.

i have relatively clear water, so cross breeding should be kept to a minimum.

my goal of course is to maintain all three lepomis species, and grow them to large sizes, and not worry too much about Fx offspring....its a science experiement wink

one thing to keep in mind is that any of the three can cross breed with the others, so no matter what, depending on the kind or clarity of your water and pond structure/weeds, you mix the species you risk getting any type of Fx offspring....some really cool, others not so cool.


Dave do you have an update on this experiment for us?

Thanks
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 05/01/12 02:57 PM
Via Bruce.

Here's a couple of pictures from my backyard in the last couple of days.

Me, ( Bruce Condello) with a bluegill X green sunfish hybrid. 12 inches long and unweighed, but possibly between 24 and 32 ounces.



My Dad with a big hybrid bluegill. A little shorter, but much stockier. Clearly over a pound.



--------------------------------------------------
By Bob Lusk and EW.

Likely - Reciprocal cross mBG X fGSF - fish No. 2 and mGSF X fBG - fish No.1.




Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/19/12 01:51 PM
sprkplug's HBG

Posted By: Bill Duggan Re: HBG pic/question - 09/19/12 03:26 PM
Bruce, I remember the problems you had with Ken Holyoak. Did any fish live?
The fish your dad is holding is a dead ringer for a mature GG.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/19/12 08:39 PM
Nice observation Bill and I agree. I have to start paying more attention.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 09/19/12 10:04 PM
What aspect/s of Bruce's dad's fish resembles the GG?
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 01:30 AM
Georgia Giants








Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 02:55 AM
Thanks ewest. I have to say though, that I don't see it. I believe that the first photo posted by ewest shows female HBG, while the next two show probable males. The fish Bruce's dad is holding looks like a male also, with dominant BG traits...at least to me. The fish in ewest's photos appear to lean more toward a redear as far as color and body shape goes, but that's just my interpretation.

Factor in an allowance for coloration variances due to environment, the likelihood of reciprocal crosses, and the possibility of multiple generations, (F2-F3's), and I see lots of room for diversity without the need for GG.
Posted By: esshup Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 03:04 AM
I thought RES hybrid too when I saw the pictures.
Posted By: Bill Duggan Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 11:23 AM
I raised Georgia Giants so have first hand knowledge, plus know Bruce attemped to stock them. That is why i think this fish might be a GG, but other posters could be right also.

Fisrt thing I noticed is how round the body is, classic mature GG.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 11:40 AM
Bill, I don't have any experience with the GG, so I don't have a basis for comparison. I figured the round shape of a HBG was influenced by it's BG heritage... MBG x FGSF might equate to a fish with a more circular profile, while a reciprocal cross MGSF x FBG may produce a more elongated fish.

These are from one of my ponds, and I can state with certainty that they are not GG. They are developing the rounded shape you speak of:





Posted By: Bill Duggan Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 11:48 AM
Thanks, I would have said those are GG also. Nice fish.

BTW for those who do not know Ken Holyoak passed away a couple years ago
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 02:04 PM
SP yours are classic HBG. I know that the pics I posted are GG as they came directly from Ken Holyoak. GG are a specific type of HBG - we just don't know the mix (trade secret).
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 03:04 PM
I wonder if we will ever know what GG really are?
Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 03:08 PM
Thanks ewest, my fish are definitely classic HBG. I can see a difference in the photos you posted, I just don't see one in Bruce's photos. To me, both of Bruce's photos display classic HBG as well. That's why I was curious as to what was seen to suggest otherwise.

If we eliminate the variances due to reciprocal crosses, and discount coloration as a steadfast method of identification due to differing water clarity from one BOW to another, what are we left with to differentiate by? It would appear that a rounded shape is not indicative of GG, so I must be missing something. What is it? I'll be wondering the rest of the day now! grin
Posted By: Aaron Prickett Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 03:41 PM
I put HBG in my pond in April and they're doing excellent. Showing great growth. I always thought the GG pics I looked at looked like HBG. In my pond, there seems to be some variation in color from fish to fish. Some look like sparkplug's fish and some look like the GGs posted above.
Posted By: Bill Duggan Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 05:48 PM
I was told by an employee of Ken's that I knew fairly well that GG is a cross between five different species of fish and only Ken and his son Jason know the exact cross. I'm not saying this is true and the person who told me was repeating what they were told, so take that for what it is worth.

ewest could someone run a DNA test on a GG as get the mix if not the cross
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 06:11 PM
Bill that is conceivably possible. Problem is there has been so little genetic testing on Lepomis species (BG , RES , GSF , PS , LES etc)that there is nothing to compare against. It would be a start from scratch effort. My guess is that no university would do this as it would be a long term and very expensive effort with no $ payback. Heck they don't even have the human genome mapped fully so Lepomis gene mapping is a long way off.

SP said "If we eliminate the variances due to reciprocal crosses, and discount coloration as a steadfast method of identification due to differing water clarity from one BOW to another,"

I look at all available morphology including color , pattern , body shape , physiology etc . That includes a lot of things , many we can't see from a single pic.

Bruce's dad fish looks like every adult GG I have seen. There does not seem to be much variation in them (GG) like you see in BG , GSF and their crosses. They (GG) are round and have a opercula flap like that and have that color /scale pattern and fins shaped and colored that way. Big mouth with blueish streaks.

What I can't tell you is how far off from that cross is a true GG. The mix could occur naturally (or close)under the righ conditions. It probably is not a pure (laugh) GG or from Ken but I bet if you did the genetic testing it would be close.



Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 06:35 PM
5 different fish? That sure seems like a ton of work, still not sure how that would make such a large fish as the GG.

Are GG even available anymore or have they been diluted so much you would not find them?
Posted By: Tums Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill Duggan
I was told by an employee of Ken's that I knew fairly well that GG is a cross between five different species of fish and only Ken and his son Jason know the exact cross. I'm not saying this is true and the person who told me was repeating what they were told, as take that for what it is worth.

ewest could someone run a DNA test on a GG as get the mix if not the cross


Bill I have a little story to tell you. I bought several GG in the 1990's and had some moster fish. I started showing them to people in my area and sending them to Ken's. One Saturday I was to be in the area and dropped in on Ken's (very nice fellow I might add) to pick up some bass fingerlings. For some reason the order was not ready and Ken took time to show me around and talk about some things while the order was being corrected. Anyway we got on the subject of the GG and the make up of the fish I had . I was told the fish came from 4 different fish. However a 5th could have been breeded in since then. Do not know what species so I will not speculate on that. However I do remember something like atleast 1 species was a very aggressive predator to make aggressive food consumption for the growth rate.
BTW I remember by the time I left Ken was laughing with me for showing up in a 2 door sports car to pick up fish. LOL
Posted By: RER Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 06:53 PM
(((LMB X Warmouth) X GSF) X RES) X CNBG
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Tums
Originally Posted By: Bill Duggan
I was told by an employee of Ken's that I knew fairly well that GG is a cross between five different species of fish and only Ken and his son Jason know the exact cross. I'm not saying this is true and the person who told me was repeating what they were told, as take that for what it is worth.

ewest could someone run a DNA test on a GG as get the mix if not the cross


Bill I have a little story to tell you. I bought several GG in the 1990's and had some moster fish. I started showing them to people in my area and sending them to Ken's. One Saturday I was to be in the area and dropped in on Ken's (very nice fellow I might add) to pick up some bass fingerlings. For some reason the order was not ready and Ken took time to show me around and talk about some things while the order was being corrected. Anyway we got on the subject of the GG and the make up of the fish I had . I was told the fish came from 4 different fish. However a 5th could have been breeded in since then. Do not know what species so I will not speculate on that. However I do remember something like atleast 1 species was a very aggressive predator to make aggressive food consumption for the growth rate.
BTW I remember by the time I left Ken was laughing with me for showing up in a 2 door sports car to pick up fish. LOL


Would you happen to have any pictures of your Monster GG you had back then. It should would be nice to know what fish were used. Even if one had all the fish involved, pairing them up could be another story.
Posted By: Tums Re: HBG pic/question - 09/20/12 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO

Would you happen to have any pictures of your Monster GG you had back then. It should would be nice to know what fish were used. Even if one had all the fish involved, pairing them up could be another story.


Sorry I do not, I lost 99% of my stuff in a house fire just over 10 years ago.
Posted By: Bill Duggan Re: HBG pic/question - 09/21/12 12:05 PM
Tums I also had good dealings with Ken, but some longtime posters here that I respect did not. It seems the futher in the past the better the experience was.
Posted By: Tums Re: HBG pic/question - 09/21/12 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill Duggan
Tums I also had good dealings with Ken, but some longtime posters here that I respect did not. It seems the futher in the past the better the experience was.

Hey I understand. I had good dealings with him, but I had a relative & a friend that did not years later. I always let the fish speak for themselves in my situation. I just simply forwarded the people that asked about them to where I got the GG.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/22/12 12:53 PM


Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 09/22/12 02:25 PM
That's a good fish alright, but are there any photos of a truly large GG? Besides the same one (Bubba) that's all over the internet?
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 09/22/12 08:17 PM
Not that I have. I am only posting ones I know are GG.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 10/25/12 10:15 PM
Sprkplug's HBG









Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: HBG pic/question - 10/25/12 10:40 PM
Sprkplug's fish are just incredible!!! I am so impressed.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: HBG pic/question - 10/25/12 11:03 PM
Sparkplug is costing me a lot of money! grin

As some of you may know, we built a quarter-acre "put-and-take" pond this past spring time. It filled with water during the first week due to a storm. The next week we put in 100 HBG, 50 CC, 50 RES, and lots of fatheads.

Tomorrow, I'm putting in an additional 150 HBG and an additional 50 RES.

Sparkplug's success with HBG has really driven me.

I'd never before dealt with HBG. But, these fish are crazy. They are vicious. They attack food like sharks in a chum line.

Thanks Sparkplug!
Posted By: esshup Re: HBG pic/question - 10/25/12 11:43 PM
Ken, what's the outlook on the storm for your place?
Posted By: catmandoo Re: HBG pic/question - 10/26/12 12:11 AM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Ken, what's the outlook on the storm for your place?


The forecasts are all over the place. I'm guessing we won't know until the middle of next week -- when it is well past us.

We are prepared for the worst.

However, we've not made any changes to our plans, including our youngest grand daughter's Saturday birthday party at Chucky Cheeses' party palace.

I'm just not ready to put the snow plow and chains on the tractor. I'd rather go trick en treating!
Posted By: catmandoo Re: HBG pic/question - 10/26/12 12:47 AM
Update

After I posted above, I checked the local news and weather. They are now calling the upcoming weather as a "Frankenstorm".


http://www.wtop.com/?nid=893&sid=3092498


Sheesh!
Posted By: sprkplug Re: HBG pic/question - 10/26/12 01:19 AM
Ken, sorry about the financial strain..... It will be worth it, I promise! wink

The storm looks bad, stay safe......
Posted By: catmandoo Re: HBG pic/question - 10/26/12 01:02 PM
The new HBG and RES have been added to the pond. This essentially doubles the number of each in this small pond. I figure I'll do this each spring and fall to keep a ready supply of fish growing.

As for the storm -- we just don't know. They are calling for sustained 60 mph winds on Sunday. The latest forecasts show the edge the really heavy snow hitting south and west of us by about 50 miles at elevations above 2500 feet. We are at a measly 1300 feet.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 11/14/12 08:16 PM
Sprkplug @

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=312044#Post312044

Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: HBG pic/question - 11/14/12 11:40 PM
WOW!!
Posted By: Bone Re: HBG pic/question - 12/26/12 08:34 PM
I also had some good dealng with kens fish hatchery until the last few years. I think it went in the hole after ken past away. Tried several times to get intouch with them. When i finally did they never could fill the orders. The GG was a fairly good HBG, Especially the first year. After that they seemed to go down hill.
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 01:31 AM
That's a common statement around here..
Posted By: Tums Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Bone
I also had some good dealng with kens fish hatchery until the last few years. I think it went in the hole after ken past away. Tried several times to get intouch with them. When i finally did they never could fill the orders. The GG was a fairly good HBG, Especially the first year. After that they seemed to go down hill.

I understand that Bone & You will find that you and I are in the minority here to have had a good experience with Ken's. The majority of the people that post on here about there experience with Ken's have had a different experience (bad from day 1).
Yes, you are right about the offspring of the GG going down hill with each generation.
Welcome aboard.
Posted By: Bone Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 05:40 PM
The last time i was there they had fallen on bad times, closed down about 90% of their opperation and fired everybody that worked there. Had the place for sell at one time. The banks had forclosed on them is what the lady said in the office.Tried reaching them over the last few weeks and got someone on the phone that couldnt tell me a thing, said they were trying to sell off what fish they had. Guess i will be looking for another Hatchery to buy fish at.
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 06:56 PM
Contact Greg Grimes for fish.

http://www.lakework.com



Location: Ball Ground, GA

Email: greg@lakework.com

Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 09:57 PM
Bone not sure where located but we sell all over SE and go through south GA once a month in the spring. Thanks Eric.
Posted By: spinnerbait Re: HBG pic/question - 12/27/12 11:20 PM
Purchased several items, and I bought fish from Greg twice this past year and they were first class. Top notch supplier!
Posted By: Bone Re: HBG pic/question - 12/29/12 04:51 PM
Greg, i live in south Ga, and will be getting in contact with you when i need to order fish. Thanks!!
Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 07/28/15 04:30 PM
Via Bruce.

Here's a couple of pictures from my backyard in the last couple of days.

Me, ( Bruce Condello) with a bluegill X green sunfish hybrid. 12 inches long and unweighed, but possibly between 24 and 32 ounces.



My Dad with a big hybrid bluegill. A little shorter, but much stockier. Clearly over a pound.



--------------------------------------------------
By Bob Lusk and EW.

Likely - Reciprocal cross mBG X fGSF - fish No. 2 and mGSF X fBG - fish No.1.




















Posted By: ewest Re: HBG pic/question - 04/19/17 02:28 AM
Female HBG pics

Sprk's HBG copied from above.



A couple of these have larger opercular flaps, for females anyway.



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