My 1/2 acre pond is going on its 4th year and last year the snail population exploded. I currently have YP and SMB which seem to be doing well. My thought was to put in 25 pumpkinseeds to help control the snails. What are the long term tendencies of PS? Are they prolific spawners?

Thanks!

Pumkinseeds are prolific spawners much like BG. Maybe Bill Cody can weigh in as to whether or not your YP and SMB will be sufficient in keeping their numbers under control.

Somehow I am guessing, "that it all depends...."

PS also tend to stunt/overpopulate usually in conjunction with BG. Dave Willis has cautioned several times about the ability of SMB to control two productive species like YP and PS (or BG). But it would depend on the situation and the numbers and sizes. What about RES as they are not known to stunt.

ewest, if g money is a good halfway up the LP in Michigan, not too far from Bay City, that's pretty much past where RES can make it most Winters in small waters.

IF he stayed right on top of the YP/PS populations, managing the YP for large size and maximum predatory ability, he might be able to control the numbers in 1/2 acre. But I would want to be very intensely managing the pond if it were me (heck, I would anyway regardless of the species involved).

I'm guessing G Monkey can't get any redears up there but I could be wrong. The fish geeks on NANFA tell me pumpkinseeds do not produce as many fry as bluegills. Not true?

There is some question but I believe that is correct Cecil. PS eggs per year per female - depending on which info you believe , is from about 1100 to 13000 while RES are from 8000 to 30000.

Most references to stunting in PS that I have seen are in combination with BG. After a concerted effort several of us can't find a reference to or anyone who has seen a stunted/overpopulated RES situation. I will check some more tonight.

g monkey - can you post a close up clear picture of the snails that you have?

Guys. It's g money. Not g monkey. Don't take it personally G, it's just a typo but you know how these things can go, I don't want you to end up with a goofy nick name.

Theo I agree. If RES won't work I would go with some PS (a few). No doubt PS can be controlled in his pond. 25 adults would be a good place to start since there are adult YP and SMB.

GMoney-

Anyone consider a hybrid whose offspring have low fedundity? RESxGSH, RESxBG, RESxPS, PSxBG? Perhaps the GSH, BG genes would result in a more hearty fish that could more easily withstand the MI winters?

I am actually curious about PS fecundity in the absence of BG. Ewest, is there any research on this showing that they do not stunt if BG are absent? I think it would be fun to have a SMB, YP, PS, RES pond.

Shorty, I don't know of any studies that directly answer your question. I do know that it is quite clear that pumpkinseeds can and do overpopulate. They are easily controlled by LMB, just as are BLG. They are not the "redear of the north" as I discovered quite a few years ago. They are similar in their habits of feeding on snails, but not in reproductive potential.

Maybe Eric will know of any studies on the BLG/Pump seed question that you asked.

I will check Shorty. Maybe a tough question to find as most studies are done on big waters with multiple species. IIRC several of those studies cautioned about RES and PS in the same water but I think it was with BG present.

teehjaeh57 in this case the cross would need to have pharyngeal teeth/crushers to eat the snails. I don't know if that gene/trait is included in any of the RES or PS Xs.

I will get a picture out here tonight or tomorrow, thanks for responses!

Great point Ewest. I am planning on dedicating a .2 acre watershed to RES/BG hybrid reproduction. With Bruce's help perhaps I can help document what traits are passed along...I'm hoping large size of a RES and aggressive nature of a BG - but the pharyngeal teeth would be a big bonus trait to pass along...

Bwa-ha-ha!

I see bg X re hybrids pretty often from some of the local natural lakes. They tend to be a little bigger than the average bluegill.

Any idea why this is? I have read the same cautions but have never really found a reason. I have heard RES out compete PS but that is all I have found. You would think it would be the other way around. I know of only a couple ponds that have both RES and PS in them though...

Here is a picture of the snails...



I don't think I be getting any PS this spring though. I called Imlay City Fish Farm, and they will not have any until this fall.

How big are those snails ? They may be to big for PS or RES.

CJ I looked a little last night with no luck. I will find the source and post it.

Dr. Willis, do you think that PS might simply stunt from the smaller gape size of YP and SMB rather a fecundity issue. To me it seems that if the only predators present are YP and SMB then PS over 5" wouldn't really need to fear predation from either one. Is this the size that PS typical stunt at in YP and SMB ponds?

Not to go out in left field but I just noticed a post on darters on the NANFA forum. Seems darters are murder on snails, in this case rams horn snails. I guess you can't keep a rams horn snail in an aquarium with darters.

So then G-money-hungry-monkey is out of the question then?

Just having some fun. Please don't delete my post.

I'm no expert but those look like the same ones I have in my pond known as ramshorn snails. Bill Cody is the expert though so we can wait for him. Bill showed me I have two types in my ponds. One is easier to crush and the fish prefer it. Bill?

Ramshorn (left) is correct Cecil and PS and RES love them. Don't know if they can eat one that big (?size).

Starting a compilation on PS applicable to this thread.



Food of Three Species of Sunfishes

(Lepomis, Centrarchidae) and

Their Hybrids in Three

Minnesota Lakes •

DAVID A. ETNIER

TRANS. AMER. FISH. SOC., 1971, NO. 1

It is interesting

to note that hybrids between green sunfish

and pumpkinseeds from Sieverson and

Long Lakes agreed more closely with pumpkinseeds

than with bluegills in regard to the

consumption of Hyalella and snails, while the

Squaw Lake hybrids that were predominantly

between green sunfish and bluegill agreed

more closely with bluegill in this regard. Fish

were a rather insignificant food for hybrids,

but were more frequently ingested by hybrids

than by any of the parental species. A consistently

high percentage of hybrid stomachs

contained food (Table 4).





Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 116:98-102, 1987

Test of Genetic Differentiation in Growth of Stunted and

Nonstunted Populations of Yellow Perch and Pumpkinseed

DANIEL HEATH 1 AND DEREK A. ROFF 2



pumpkinseed

Lepomis gibbosus populations of Lac Hertel, Qu6-

bec.

Pumpkinseeds have been known to

be stunted since 1973 (W. C. Leggett, McGill University,

unpublished data), and again anecdotal

evidence suggestsa much longer period of stunting

Fish

The species of fish found in Lac Hertel include the following eight species:

northern pike (Esox lucius)

rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)

yellow perch (Perca flavescens)

pumpkinseed sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus)

golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas)

mudminnow (Umbra limi)

white sucker (Catostomus commersoni)

brown bullhead (Ictalurus nebulosis)


This is not the info I have previously read.

Vital Statistics of a Michigan Fish Population, with Special Emphasis on the Effectiveness of Stocking 15-cm Walleye Fingerlings
PERCY W. LAARMAN

North American Journal of Fisheries Management 1981;1:177–185


Mean total mortality rates of smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieui), bluegills (Lepomis macrochirus), pumpkinseeds (Lepomis gibbosus), and black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus) were 60, 66, 72, and 58%,




MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES

FISHERIES DIVISION

Redear Sunfish Management in Michigan

Gary L. Towns

Fisheries Technical Report 2003-3

September 30, 2003

http://www.michigandnr.com/PUBLICATIONS/PDFS/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf



After several years of observations, an

Indiana Department of Natural Resources,

fisheries biologist reported that redear sunfish

didn’t seem to “stunt” in growth like some other

panfish species (Neil Ledet, 1987, personnel

communication)





Some fisheries managers have speculated

that redear sunfish may out-compete native

panfishes in Michigan, especially pumpkinseed.

Redear sunfish and pumpkinseed both consume

snails. In fact, no other native fish species in

Michigan’s inland lakes uses snails as a primary

food item, so it is logical to assume that there

will be competition between these species. In

centrarchids, molariform teeth are present only

in redear sunfish and pumpkinseed (Trautman

1957), and mollusk-eating in centrarchids is

usually associated with increases in the

proportion of molariform teeth on the

pharyngeal jaws, among other things (Lauder

1983).

Huckins’ (1997) observations from a pond

competition experiment, and from fish surveys,

suggested that pumpkinseed and redear sunfish

compete, and that competition for snails is the

mechanism of the interaction. Redear sunfish

were superior to pumpkinseed in exploiting

snails. However, this study also suggested that

pumpkinseed may be better able to eat softbodied

prey items - such as aquatic insects.

Huckins’ analysis of pumpkinseed and redear

sunfish populations in two Michigan lakes (Lee

Lake, Calhoun County and Saubee Lake, Eaton

County) suggested the greater crushing strength

of redear sunfish allowed them to shift from a

diet of soft-bodied insects to a diet of snails at an

earlier age than pumpkinseed. Pumpkinseeds

≤2.6 in were consuming primarily soft-bodied

prey such as insect larvae, the bulk of which

were dipteran. Diets of larger pumpkinseeds

(≥2.6 in SL) also tended to be dominated by

chironomid larvae (about 37% of diet biomass),

with snails making up less of the diet (about

29% of the diet biomass). In contrast, Huckins

found redear sunfish in the same lakes showed a

striking shift in diet between small (<1.6 in SL)

and large individuals. Diets of small redear

sunfish contained approximately 30%-50% each

of snails and zooplankton, and the remainder

was dominated by dipteran larvae. Redear

sunfish larger than 1.6 in showed an extensive

shift to molluscivory - approximately 87% of the

average diet was composed of snails. It is

probable that where snails are prevalent the

superior snail crushing ability provides an

advantage to redear sunfish, but it is not so

overwhelming that pumpkinseed will likely be

extirpated after redear sunfish introductions.

Michigan fishery surveys have found

pumpkinseed populations co-existing with

redear sunfish in lakes that have had large redear

sunfish populations for several decades. Fish

populations in Lake George, Silver Lake, and

Coldwater Lake in Branch County and in

Crooked Lake in Washtenaw County are good

examples. Pumpkinseeds were present in most

recent trap net surveys of these lakes, but in low

numbers. In an effort to further examine this

issue, survey catch data for pumpkinseed were

examined in other lakes where redear sunfish

have been introduced (Table 5). In some

instances, specific pumpkinseed data were not

recorded in early (pre-redear sunfish

introduction) surveys. In other cases, redear

sunfish and pumpkinseed have co-existed for

only a few years, so long-term effects from any

competition could not be measured. However,

in most cases, where pumpkinseed survey data

exist, there seems to be no obvious negative

relationship. In 40 post-redear sunfish

introduction surveys, trap net catch-per-effort

(CPE) of pumpkinseeds decreased in 21

situations, increased in 18, and stayed the same

in 1. However, overall average pumpkinseed

CPE declined from 7.6 to 4.7. Total CPE of

redear sunfish and pumpkinseeds combined

increased in 36 of the 40 surveys.

Pumpkinseed growth index changes showed

no specific pattern after redear sunfish were

introduced. Adequate growth index data for

pumpkinseed (pre- and post-redear sunfish

introductions) were available for 9 lakes. Four

of these indicated that pumpkinseed growth

increased after redear sunfish were introduced,

four indicated decreased pumpkinseed growth,

and one was unchanged. The average of these

nine lakes was an increase in pumpkinseed

growth index from 0.2 to 0.3 in after redear

sunfish were introduced.

The one on the left is the introduced Ramshorn snail and the one on the right looks like the common pond snail. Larger ones like that probably don't get eaten by any but the largest PS and RES. But there are always smaller ones that will...

Darters do love snails... Three species of darter are adapted to pond life. The swamp darter, tessellated darter and Johnny darter. I am in the process of building up the darter numbers in my one pond right now. If you have sandy or rocky areas in your pond, the tessellated and Johnny darters should do well, the swamp darter is a little less picky but rarely gets larger than 2" where as the other two species will push 4".

None of these species are available commercially but are all very common and can be collected in most streams in the east(tessellated darter) or in the Mississippi drainages(Johnny darter) or along the coastal areas(swamp darter). If anyone is interested PM me and I will give you more information on them...