Pond Boss
Posted By: Alligator Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 12:30 AM
(Assumming we receive rain between now and spring)

I am planning on restocking my lake. It has been drawn down for several years. When full, it will be 8.5 acres. I plan on Bluegill and LMB long term.

Should I go with Gambusia or Fatheads for my inital stocking of forage base?

Gator
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:04 AM
Gator, why choose?
Posted By: ewest Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:15 AM
Gator :

What is the current status of the pond/fish and what is your stocking plan (big or little fish to start)? What additional types other than BG/LMB?
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:45 AM
Sunil, good point.

ewest, the previous residents were LMB, HGB and an unknown species of Catfish. The lake has been drained down + the drought has dried up all but about 1 acre. There cant be much left at this point (compared to when it was full). There was a very large section that was only 12" - 18" deep before the last rain. Last time down there I could only spot a few HBG.

I am planning restocking with small CNBG first then LMB.

Gator
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:46 AM
Gator,

I agree with Sunil, why choose? Why not both? Chances are that you will have Gambusia regardless in our area...they are one of those fish that just appear in our area. However, stocking a few initially will get things rolling in the right direction.

Fatheads provide great initial forage for your predators but generally do not survive predation more than one year. Gambusia, on the other hand, will survive through reproduction and their ability to use very shallow water to hide in indefinitely. Gambusia are small, but many small bites add up.

If its one thing I've learned from the GG experiment, Gambusia are one terrific forage fish for hybrid bluegill. Before starting that experiment, I knew small LMB and larger BG fed heavily on Gambusia in my ponds based on observations and stomach sampling...but no kidding, the GG's absolutely slaughter Gambusia...even in 52 deg water temps, I have observed GG surface blasting of Gambusia. I'm more convinced than ever as to the value of these small fish to your low end predators....small LMB and BG, and especially hybrid BG.
Posted By: ewest Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 02:34 AM
Gator :

Have you set a budget for stocking or have a time schedule? As you know there are many ways to get where you are going. Will you use tilapia or other bait fish? IMHO any plan needs to be evaluated as a whole and not as the sum of its parts. Do you want a balanced pond or are you interested in trophy LMB or BG ? All of that is easier to plan for and do from the start. Depending on the path you choose you may want one or the other , both or nither. It all depends.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:15 PM
side note-if pond is still down I strongly suggest rotenone or other agent to kill remaining fish especially if HBG. It only takes one bass to throw a major curve in fingelring stocking program. It has happened numerous times when pond owner was sure there were no fish.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 01:46 PM
Greg,

Right on! So true. I drained a grow-out pond last year that was supposed to have only 40 HSB and one grass carp...it had one (very happy) LMB, one grass carp, and zero HSB.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/26/06 02:17 PM
I had the same thing happen. I had a small pond that I stocked with CC, FH, BG, and LMB.That was my first pond, less than 1/4 acre, and I had no idea about proper stocking rates. Everything was great for a couple of years. Then the bass over spawned and I soon had bass, CC and a population of huge BG. I thought all of the bass starved and died. Several years later I tossed some jigs in to catch BG and a big bass hit and broke my line. I never saw it again. Drought killed everything.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 03:15 AM
ewest, Sunil, ML, Greg, and Dave,

First - thanks for the guidance here, this is my first attempt on restocking the pond.

I am looking for a balanced pond; I am not really interested in trophy LMB, just a fishing lake for my family. Since it has been drained down for so long – I am trying to kick start it again, as soon as it fills up…hopefully this spring. At capacity it will be 8.5 acres, current size is approx 1 acre, much of that only 12” – 18” deep. My thought was to build up the forage based since (I am assuming here) the pond has a small number of fish left and they must be hungry.

HBG – caught several of these last spring and summer. The pond is now very shallow and the predators have had a field day over the past year. I’m not really partial to these guys and would prefer to have CNBG.

LMB – I caught several sizable LMB before the drought and saw some fingerlings during the summer – I assume some are still in there.

Catfish – I have never caught catfish, but observed a black cloud of 1” – 2” Catfish in the spring – no signs since. There were several LMB following and picking them off one-by-one.

While drained down: I cleaned off all of the edges of the pond and shoved A LOT of trees and brush down into the lake area. And I do mean A LOT of brush. I estimate 50%+ of my lake bottom has brush piles/cover. There is much more than any of the pictures of others PB’ers ponds I have seen posted on the forum. The brush is at various depths and is spread-out over entire pond in lines, rows, piles and some standing brush that will be flooded...My thinking is that the (planned new stocking) forage base will have ample cover and (mostly) be able avoid the few LMB that are in there…not sure this is good thinking.?

Since I already have HBG and LMB in there, I could just wait and see what happens after it fills – but wanted to take whatever proactive steps necessary to ensure success.

Gator
Posted By: Frank Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 04:36 AM
I would echo Greg's advice about rotenone to remove any existing fish. That way you know your starting point and can control the number and the species when stocking "fresh"

Frank
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 12:22 PM
GAtor I have never seen enough cover to protect fingerling fish from bass if they are already there. You are not talking very long with good mgmt before you have good fishing and again sugggest killing existing fish especially if you have some bass and HBG. However you never know it may workout I have just seen the opposite happen with left over fish prior to stocking. Ok I will not mention it again.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 12:40 PM
What temp does the water need to be before Rotenone?

My hesitation to whack everything is because there are some nice LMB in there...

Gator
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 01:42 PM
Gator,

Three things about your described situation that would influence me to start over: 1) the presence of bullhead catfish 2) the presence of HBG, and 3) other possible unknowns. The first two pose known hazards to meeting your objectives and the third, of course, unknown. The nice LMB are good news and bad news. It will be very difficult to establish any forage base or successfully introduce fingerlings of any species with their presence.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 02:15 PM
Forgot to address your question re rotenone.

I don't know about the temps, but would suggest you consider an alternative. I know you don't want to loose what water you have but since it is very shallow, rather than rotenone, why not rent a trash pump over the weekend and just pump it out. That way there would be no concern about chemicals, the fish would be perfectly eatable or even re-usable if you choose to place in holding tanks. You would need to be sure to get it completely drained, however, just as you would have to get complete coverage with the rotenone. I know a lot of folks have used rotenone and I'm probably viewed as overly conservative, but I'm just really cautious about using chemicals that kill everything.
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 02:28 PM
ML has a good point about the trash pump idea. You have that 12,500 gallon cement tank, and if you found a fish that you really didn't want to kill, you could temporarily house him in the other tank.

That cloud of 1" to 2" baby catfish sounded like bullheads to me also.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 02:39 PM
We have put out Rotenone on ice beforoe it just takes a little while longer for it to "clear" but would be fine by the time you stock other fish. I suggest use of trash pump also but I never seen it get enough water out to rid of all fish. However the less water you have the less checmical you need and the less chance of surival. You can catch out the few larger bass and hold on to them? Also there are chemicals that will work besides rotenone. IN fact you can not put out roetnone unless you have a restriced use pesticide license. I do not but know many folks that use bleach (chlorine) and it works fine but also not legal except for HTH brand is registed as fish toxicatant.
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 02:45 PM
Greg, maybe that's the best combination idea?

Get as much of the water out, maybe let some more evaporate, take out what you want, and kill the rest.

We've all heard that the bullheads can live a long time with little water.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 03:02 PM
You bring up an interesting idea...my pond is actually two ponds once it falls below a certian level. It is current two seperate areas due to the drought. I could use that to my advantage by pumping one and/or killing off the other, then use to keep the LMB.

Now if I can just get Mother Nature to cooperate with the rain.

\:\)

Gator
Posted By: ewest Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 01/27/06 03:29 PM
Gator :

I like the trash pump idea. If you get the water down then another product that will kill leftover fish, will help short term with acidity and have other benefits is hydrated lime and you can get it at the co-op and don't have to have a permit. See below :

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA028

Hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) is an inexpensive and effective pond sterilizer, raising the pH quickly and dramatically above tolerable levels for most aquatic organisms. It should be used carefully, avoiding contact to the applicator, and never used in ponds containing desirable fish.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 02:15 AM
Guys,

I fished my lake on Sunday, this was the first time I fished it since early last summer. I tore them up! In 45 minutes I caught 10 LMB (missed 2 more). I stood in one spot and only covered about 1/2 of pond. The bass ranged from 4.5lbs to 8 ozs. One 4.5, Several were 3 lbers, several 2 lbers and a few 1 lb and under. All were healthy, some were shorter and fatter but none were skinny.

I'm really having second thoughts about draining and starting over vs. building on what I already have...

Gator

PS. No signs of stray dogs and saw several deer too!
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 03:31 AM
For us Northerners, those are some nice LMB to exist in "natural" conditions.

For you Texans, who knows.
Posted By: JayMan Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 01:28 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by Alligator:

I am looking for a balanced pond; I am not really interested in trophy LMB, just a fishing lake for my family.
Sounds like mission accomplished.

I don't think a few bullhead will ruin your pond as long as you have a healthy population of LMB. As you have seen, baby bullhead are a LMB delicacy. I guess it depends on how much you hate the little buggers. They are fun to fish for while sitting by the campfire. Tasty too.

Now the HBG. Not so sure about them.
Posted By: ewest Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 02:38 PM
Gator :

You can take any of several paths to get where you want to go. The differences are time , effort and money. I would not just let it refill and hope for the best. To me that would be the hardest method and least likely to get there. If you choose to leave some larger LMB then you will have to stock larger forage fish in enough numbers to feed the existing fish (and offspring)plus establish an adequate breeding population to sustain the fishery. But to do any plan you have to have a good idea what is there now.
Posted By: george Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 07:01 PM
Alligator: (“Assumming we receive rain between now and spring”)

With 8.5 acres and only one acre under water, it a tough call….!
How deep is the remaining water?

If you are four feet low, as we are, you will have 7+ acres with four feet of water – hardly enough to survive another drought of this magnitude.
The last bad drought in the 50‘s lasted three years, so we’re not out of the woods yet…

Do I understand correctly that you have two separate ponds presently that will become one when full? How deep?

I would call 8.5 acres a lake if it were mine \:\)

I believe I would consult with a fisheries professional as to whether to completely eliminate all fish and start over. It would be tempting to save the 4 to 5 lb bass and transfer to separate pond if deep enough.

It would be a good opportunity to deepen the exposed drought portion of your pond – that way you would have three ponds during low water periods?

We deepened the shallow end of our pond first of the year, making two ponds presently, and connected if and when we get some decent rain in N.E. Texas.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002266

My “balanced pond” would consist of LMB and HSB as primary predators, with CNBG and Tilapia for forage – supplemented with a good feeding program of high protein feed.

I would only stock ADULT fish – no fingerlings unless starting over, and “kick start” with all adults if no budget constraints.

If CC are desired, I would stock only the numbers I plan to harvest, and supplement on an annual basis.
If overstocked – as we did – they are nuisance and will eat you out of house and home.

It would be a tough decision for me to completely drain a pond and start over unless a very old silted in pond – or a pond full of “trash” fish – BUT - as I have learned on this forum – one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

Our ponds are down about four feet and luckily deep enough to survive the drought so far – but if it continues we all are going to be in bad trouble.

Good Luck.
George Glazener
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 10:08 PM
George,

Just to clarify what I have:

The subject of this thread is a single pond, when full is 8.5 acres. It was drained down (leaky stand pipe) about 8 feet before the drought. Additionally the drough has it down another 4 - 6 feet. (I got about 2' rise with the last rains in January).

The construction of this pond is such that when it is 14 feet low - there are actually two separate areas of water.

One of the areas was down to about 12’ – 18”, but with the rain is now up to ~3 feet deep. There are not many fish in this area.

The second area is currently 6 or 7 feet deep. This is where I was fishing last Sunday.

Each area is about 1 acre in size, connected by a small ditch.

I have deepened some of the dry areas (as much as I could afford - $) around each side.

I am leaning toward stocking high rates of Gambusia and Fatheads + Large CNBG in the March - April timeframe…assuming we get more rain.

One last additional comment – this pond is creek fed. I will not be able to completely control what goes in…therefore another reason to go LMB heavy to control the “unwanted” creek visitors.
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 10:14 PM
Gator, can you put some of those LMB in your 12,500 Gallon Cement Pond for a few months?
Posted By: ewest Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/07/06 10:32 PM
Gator :

How much will the water have to rise before the 2 parts become one ? If you have one part that is mostly empty of predators and will take several feet + of water to connect I would be temptd to put FH ,Gam. and small 1-2 in. CNBG/RES in it to grow. Enough BG/RES for 1 acre not 8 if you expect the 2 to remain seperate for 90 days. I would also start fishing elsewhere for BG and add the adults you catch to the pond. You could also use your small pond, if it has water to start to grow out any of the forage fish.

Post back what you expect on the water situation and I will try to come up with a plan that considers all you have set out above.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 01:20 AM
Sunil,

The 12,500 gallon pond is a reference to the Beverly Hillbillys "Cement Pond"...its in my back yard here in the city.

;\)

ewest,

The two sections will connect with about 2 more feet of rise. After the long drought last year, I am not sure what to expect or if we will get rain. The idea of raising the forage base in there will work...very few (if any) LMB in there. It is about 3' deep right now.

Gator

Here is a picture The section in the foreground is tha shallow one:


Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 02:23 AM
Gator:

I tend to favor ewest's idea - prep forage with minnows and bream in the mostly predatorless part. How much $ I'd spend depends on the weather forecast. If/when you get enough rain to connect the two parts, your bass spawn should be able to really take off in growth.

Ya'll got any o' them big pink chickens by your C-ment pond in the city? ;\)
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 03:29 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Gator. I wonder if I was the only one who didn't get that.

That picture really helps with things.

In the same vein of thinking in regards to quickly making one pond just forage for now, I have a thought.

What if you culled the LMB stock down to just a few of the largest ones, maybe 10-20 of them, and leave them in the one pond.

Then do the forage thing in the other pond.

Then comes my question: Once the ponds combine, will the bigger LMB eradicate the smaller forage fish (ie/ fatheads and shiners) considering that a larger fish wants a larger meal when given choices? I would assume you would have a lot of size classes of bluegill in the forage pond too.

Mother nature would be the great variable.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 01:17 PM
Sunil,

You bring up a good point and that is the genetics of the existing LMB. On that point - it was suggested (by a reputable supplier) to add new F1 LMB to the preditor base. He suggested we test the current strain, add new - then retest later to determine the success of the new "blood" so to speak.

On your second point - I would have all sizes of forage base assuming I can keep the two ponds seperated.

That brings up a question - why would I need to cull the LMB?

I like everyones suggestions about keeping the two areas seperate and building up the forage base before the two sections combine.

Theo - I knew you would appreciate the cement pond reference... \:D WOOOOOOO Doggie!

I stated eariler that I would stock with small fish - but I can go big instead.

Gator
Posted By: Sunil Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 01:48 PM
Gator, my thoughts of culling were based on the idea of helping to get a forage base firmly established. I thought that if you had only a few large bass, they would not eat all of the smaller fish, but may target a mid-sized forage fish.

I suppose the truth is that you may not need to do a single thing, but it's fun to vicariously speculate.
Posted By: Alligator Re: Gambusia vs. Fathead - 02/08/06 02:26 PM
sunil,

Since this is my first time to attempt this...I dont know. I do appreciate everyones input and advice - it is fun to speculate!

Gator
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