I have news for everybody. Cecil Baird haunts my dreams. Every time I think that I'm doing something special with one of my ponds I'm reminded that Mr. Baird is growing "Brick Trout" or yellow perch the size of big walleyes. What he's doing over there is unbelievable. I'm sure that there's nothing like that anywhere else in the country.

So I've decided to finally do something about it. I went to Tractor Supply Company and used all of the knowledge I've gleaned from various sources and decided to start a yellow perch project.

I contacted a perch grower in Sutton, NE which is only one hour away from here (thank goodness) and politely explained to him why I wanted him to grade some perch for me. I told him how someone in Indiana was using all female yellow perch and growing monsters. He nodded knowingly and agreed to grade off for me the biggest perch in his tank. From a tank of maybe 5,000 yellow perch he selected 450 of the biggest ones and assured me that a large percentage would end up being female.

From Tractor Supply Company I used a 10% off coupon and purchased a 150 gallon Rubbermaid tank with a 1.25 inch integrated outlet. The college kid was fascinated as I told him that I wanted to dribble water in at 30 gallons/hour but have the water from the bottom of the tank to be the first to exit so I could keep my water as clean as possible. I also designed the tank so that I could drain water with a valve quickly to draw suspended solids out of the tank without letting any fish out.

So far after about two weeks I have yellow perch that are eating readily and some even appear to be getting a little bigger. The well water will come in at a constant 54 degrees all winter and I have added a small aerator. Hopefully this will serve as a redundancy so that if either the hose or the aerator fail that the other will continue to supply enough oxygen so the fish don't perish before I remedy the situation.

My goal is to select off the biggest fish, hopefully that are visibly carrying eggs next spring, or later if necessary and use them to stock my new .15 acre pond that will have the horizontal aeration.

Bruce,

That's funny. I thought I was the one envying you! I'm still not confident I will grow big bluegills like you. I may have blown it with below optimum growth this summer due to overcrowding.

Are you aware:

"Yellow perch brood stock must be held outdoors in ponds or indoors under conditions
that mimic the normal seasonal changes in temperature and day length, as these changes are
needed to induce normal sexual maturation. Females must be exposed to a "chill period" for
normal yolk deposition and final maturation to occur. The optimum chill period of yellow
perch from northern Minnesota was determined to be 185 days at temperatures of 43EF (6EC)
or lower (Hokanson 1977). Yellow perch from more southern latitudes, however, probably
do not need such a long or cold chill period to complete maturation." (Kolkovski and
Dabrowski 1998).

See Yellow Perch White Paper

http://govdocs.aquake.org/cgi/reprint/2003/528/5280250.pdf

One plus to raising perch indoors at constant temps which precludes gonadal development may be faster growth and then when you want them to develop eggs you can overwinter them under appropriate conditions.

This might be good news for me because the building these fish are in is only insulated R-4 and is unheated. Last winter the temperature got down to 10 degrees F. for a while. Maybe the temperature of the water will be buffered by the air temperature and I'll get something similar to a normal temp cycle. I also purposely placed the tank next to the window so the fish will experience a daily solar cycle.

That is an ingenious (sp?) looking homemade rig, Bruce.

I foresee a possible combination of my daughter's "BG in a 10 gallon aquarium" project and the 100 gallon Rubbermaid trough which will be surplus for the Winter when my heifers finish off their current pasture.

When I tell my wife it was all your idea, she's really gonna hate you.

What (if anything) are you using for a screen at the drainhole? Please keep us informed of the both the progress of the YP and the status of the do-it-yourself fish Condello-minium.

Cecil:
Would the delayed gonad development be a likely result of constant temperature overwintering in other species (say, BG)?

Theo, The 1.25 inch drainhole was not threaded all the way to the inside so I took a 1 inch connector with a 90 degree bend (elbow?), wrapped some electrical tape around it until I could just wedge it into the inside part of the hole. The opening of the elbow faces down and allowed about a .5 inch gap from the bottom. When I open the drain valve the water comes rushing out (and most of the waste) but the perch can't quite squeeze under and are learning to avoid the area when I clean it.

Including the aerator the whole thing cost me about 200 bucks.

Curse you, Condello, I've been thinking about this all afternoon - it just got worse after I got home and saw the watering troughs (like in the pictures), PVC pipe (like in the pictures), and hoses with ball valves (like in the pictures) just laying around the farm, hardly even used for more productive purposes (those cows can drink when it rains, right? ). We've even got an aquarium-sized air pump and airstone laying around somewhere that would probably suffice for a lighter load of fish than you're running.

This could be the Po' Boy answer to the RAS, only open loop instead of recirculating. So take really good notes and tell us what works and what doesn't, please. I'm gonna let you make all the mistakes and take all the credit, but I can definitely see trying one of these in the future.

What kind of trickle/purge regimin are you planning on using?

LOL. I forgot to say that the tank is sitting on a tiny incline of about 3/4 inch in order to allow the more settlable solids to go to the outlet. I'm going to monitor the temps closely to see if I need to increase inflow during the winter to maintain temps of at least 40 degrees. This is why I think YP are the perfect fish because they will grow better than BG in cooler water. I'll purge every time I go to the farm which is between one and three times per week. I also think that once every month at least I will scrub the sides before purging. Right now trickle is 1/2 gpm which really isn't expensive for me....maybe 40 dollars for the winter, and the water is recycled through the drain to the bluegill reproduction pond anyway, so it really isn't wasted.

The best part is that it's fun!

Cool Bruce!

Bruce wrote: "I have news for everybody. Cecil Baird haunts my dreams."

Bruce, I'm really worried about you. Have you tried to see anybody for help? Surely you know some good medical professionals?

It's a vicious cycle, Sunil. He needs the gas to sleep, but the gas gives him haunting dreams - of Cecil.

Theo, you've hit the nail on the head. You are absolutely right.

It's a cry for help as clear as anything!

He can't talk to his family about it, so he makes a statement on a public forum, eloquently disguised in yellow perch based subject matter; blatant, yet tongue-in-cheek.

Theo, remember when you try setting this up that the open end of the tank goes up (toward the ceiling). I tried it the other way and the water kept running out.

Sunil, if you ever try something like this make sure to remember that the fish like oxygen. I tried directly plumbing the gas from my office to the tank but the fish kept falling out.

Bruce :

Very good . I think you won that verbal encounter. Also a great idea but tell me Black Jack will you put a mini Bruce with boggie board in the 150 gal. pond with the YP. How are the male Condello BG doing ? ewest

Bruce I don't pretend to know anything about raising perch and I really think the setup is cool, but I have a concern about freezing in the lines. Maybe it is the Michigander in me but I would be concerned that the line would possibly freeze between the bottom tee and the lower drain valve. This is the valve you use for cleaning correct? Since it is usually in the off position wouldn't you have water always sitting in this area in 10 degree weather? If this area frooze and the pipe broke wouldn't the tank completely drain?

I have a knack for bothering people without even trying! You should see WWIII on a taxidermy industry forum I participate in. It's gone to hell due to no moderation whatsoever. That's why I'd hate to see this site go to hell in a handbasket.

Message to fozzybear: (or anybody else)

UH OH!

What do I do????

I think you're right about the line freezing.

Bruce,
Maybe if you move the lower valve right next to the tee, there would be enough water movement to keep the line from freezing. Another option would possibly be that heating tape they use in gutters. I think it is very low voltage and made to be used in wet conditions. better source and should benear you I think...
http://doitbest.com/shop/product.asp?msc...1103&sku=549851

Bruce:

How big is the building this is located in? Even though it is only insulated to R4, you could probably keep it above freezing with a small electric heater. If you used a 1500W milkhouse heater (low temperature, high volume air output) you could direct the warm air toward the pipe tree for best effect.

P.S. Thanks for the tip on putting the open end of the trough up. I already figured this out; I tried watering cattle with it the other way and had a calf simultaneously suffocate and die of dehydration underneath the trough trying to drink. :p

I'm definitely going to check out the other options, i.e. heating tape and heat blower, but would my little electric radiant heaters work? They stand about 28 inches high and they have two vertical heating elements that seem to heat primarily objects they are pointed at. I wonder what kind of electricity costs we're talking here for the winter. If I could make this work then the perch would grow faster as well. The entire building is 42 X 68, but the room that the fish are in is 42 X 15 with an 8.5 foot ceiling.

Bruce, those radiant heaters are nice, with the ceramic elements. If it has a low setting, of say 800 watts, and cycles on and off, looking at a dollar a day. If 1500 watts and runs continuously, $4 a day.
The tape sounds good. May even wrap some around the tank.

Bruce :

Two things we do which may be of interest are to use insulating wrap on pipes and valve covers (styrafome and alum. covers which snap on and off). Second we put timers between the outlet and the radiant heaters so we can control how much they run. Those things have a way of getting to hot if the theromstat sticks. ewest

My mother has a small goldfish pond and in the winter she uses a small floating water heater to keep it from icing over. I am sure you could use that to keep things at a fairly standard temp. Here is an example at only $12

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9056/cid/2218

Maybe that will help keep you where you want to be temp wise. If you want to make sure the line does not freeze up, the warmer temp due to the heater and allowing for a slow drip ( crack open the hand valve ) will provide flow and should keep the line from freezing over. Where there is flow you generally dont have a freeze.

Bruce,
Another possible "frost proofing" option:

Plumb your overflow directly into the top of the tank (as you did with the bottom valve assembly)

next;

Place your lower drain valve on the "inside" of the tank, that should keep it from freezing. You will have to roll up your sleeve now to purge the system, and I'll bet it will be cold!

Just a thought

Ed

Brucile, couple of comments/questions:

1) With so many fish in that bucket, will aeration even be enough? Will you need pure oxygen?

2) Will elevating the whole set-up a few feet off the ground help with your freeze-up issues?

3) Are you going to cover the bucket with some mesh or something? I would think you'd have some "gassed" fish trying to jump out.

1) WARNING! DO NOT PLACE A FLOATING HEATER IN A PLASTIC WATERING TROUGH!

I refer specifically to floating heaters where the electric heating element is exposed (without a cold temperature cage) below the water line. If and when the heating element touches the side of the trough, you will have BIG problems.

My story of the day the watering trough burned to the ground is not an exaggeration!

2) Stupid of me not to think of pipe insulation as one possible aid in this effort (we use a lot of it at work on Liquid Nitrogen lines).

3) I personally have had a bad experience with heat tape, which melted it's own insulation and shorted out. It is entirely possible that this fiasco was the result of my own mistakes in installation. Regardless, Bruce, I suggest you set up, adjust, and monitor whatever powered heating system you use over a long a time as possible (weekend at the farm?) before leaving it to it's own devices. A bright guy like you is probably already figuring on doing that.

Sunil :

That is a good one " gassed fish ". Even the non-gassed ones in my aquarium sometimes get frisky and try to fly and they never make it back if they clear the top. Screen is a good idea. ewest

Your right I forgot he had a plastic tub. I was thinking it was a metal one for some reason. I agree do not use the heater in a plastic one.

Bruce, with some research, I bet you can come up with some sort of indirect heat exchanger and regulate the temps. to really get the little fishies off to a good start. After all, you did save 5% on the tank. Or, put them in an aquarium in the office. You may get frequent return customers to check on their growth.

Burgermeister wrote "Or, put them in an aquarium in the office."

I know Bruce agrees! You can never be to close to the gas.

OK, now...Thanks to you guys I've updated the YP project. When my Morton building was completed there was some extra insulation, (the kind with a shiny backing) that was unused and they asked if I wanted it. I said OK, and now finally had a use for it. It came in sheets of 3' X 4' and was in pretty good shape. I took some scrap 1" PVC and suspended it from the ceiling with some stainless wire. This gave me a crude scaffolding for a "tent" of sorts. I used twist ties pushed through holes in the insulation that I made with a drill. Then I took my radiant heater and set it on the lowest thermostat setting within the tent. I also shortened the drain pipe so that all water contained within the pipe will be much closer to the main volume of water. The heater was pointed between the tank and the drain. I will monitor energy usage and water temperatures throughout the winter and report to all how this is doing. Does it sound like I'm a little less likely to have a disaster?

Where's the mesh cover, Man?

You just proved there is no such thing as "scrap" material - only temporary surplus you haven't figured out a use for yet.

Looks like a good, freeze-proof solution, Bruce. As long as nothing gets too hot from the radiant heater, you should be in like Flynn.

One (more, for now ...) question: Your water supply hose comes from outside the "tent." Your well must have it's own freeze-proof area for pressure tank, controls, etc. I assume you're figuring keeping the water moving through the hose will prevent freezing (should work in theory). What gets screwed up besides the hose if it manages to freeze (power outage stopping pump, or ???) anyway?

I think if you go with a heat lamp, you could get one heckuva tan in there!

Great job Bruce !! Just be careful of that heater as Theo noted. Next week over wintered YP rule. By the way don't take any flash picts. in there --the reflection would be a killer.

ps If the window faces into the open end it may give you more light for your fish and may have some effect on the expir. if the intensity is to strong like a mirrow effect. Watch the glare on the water and see if it bothers the fish. ewest

Cool set-up Bruce! Question : How far does the hose run from the well to your tank? If there is a long run, you might want to use the home depot every thing 30% (if yellow tagged of course) and grab some insulated tubes, the type used for the copper water lines in your home. Cheap added protection!

Indoor perch grow best in dim or low level lighting. The tent may shield the fish from full overhead lighting whenever you turn on the indoor lights. Since your water level is so close to the tank rim a plastic mesh cover might be a good ideas as sunil suggests.

Very ingenious. I would go with Ewest's suggestion of a timer(15 amp) as the thermostats will stick with prolonged use, and an appliance 6ft cord. I see you have a heavy duty extension, but that much current for a long time may heat it up. Just keep tabs when you are there. Will you be covering up the open end?

BTW, anyone, I have only caught and eaten a few small YP in Tx., but found them very good. How do you compare them with BG for table fare?

The open end of the tent points toward the window, but will never have direct sunlight. I'm going to switch to a shorter extension and put on a timer (I already have both). Should I place a piece of clear plastic over the top, and drape it a little over the opening to create a trap for the warm air to stay in the tent? I'm also going to wrap a little insulation around the outlet. The hose comes from a frost-proof hydrant and travels only about 12 feet. I think I could increase the flow during the coldest part of the winter to preclude freezing. Also, if the hose did freeze I think that would be one problem that wouldn't have fatal consquences since the aerator would continue to run. Thanks for all the great responses so far!

Bruce

Bruce,
If the hose freezes the frost free hydrant is no longer frost free. It too will freeze. I would insulate the hose!
If you insulated the outlet drain with 2 inches of insul. making sure it is air tight esp. next to the tank, I don't think you would need any heat to prevent freezing of the outlet. The water in the tank will prevent freezing.

BTW I too envy Cecil & his huge trout & perch!

As the temperatures begin to drop in the next few weeks could I measure the temperature of the water exiting the sweeper nozzle to determine if insulation is necessary? The temperature coming out right now is 54 degrees F. Would it begin to drop over time if freezing is imminent? What's the best way to insulate a hose again?

You're right Bruce, the water leaving the hose will have to drop in temp before freezing & should be an indicator.
Hardware stores, Lowes or refrigeration & plumming supply houses have foam insulation for pipes. I would want at least 1/2" wall insul. for the hose. It's important that there be no air gaps between joints of insulation. The ID (inside diameter) of the insulation should match the OD of the hose.

I would feel safer insulating against freezing in case the heater fails.
Also, IMO the heater isn't necessary to prevent freezing if insulation is applied properly.

I like your project!

Yesterday I bought 5 six-foot lengths of 3/4 inch hose insulation at 1.94/unit and covered the hose along the entire length. I'll try to get another picture on at some point. Thanks again to everyone for continuing to give me input.

Bruce,

Can't wait to see the finished results. Looks great so far...

burgermeister,

My opinion on YP is they are the best tasting fish (walleye are close)...of course I was a WI native so that might have something to do with it...

Congrats Bruce on such an apparently effective and frugal design. My wheels had stopped turning trying to figure out how I could overwinter tilapia for summer stockings here in Ohio fairly cost effectively and now you've started them up again. Maybe I could make a similar set up in my basement, with a small water heater fed in part by the geothermal furnace?? I'll have the space since the wife shot down the idea of an indoor trout stream down there. Come to think of it, I think I still have a 1000 gal. water trough in the barn. I'd hate to send the heated water down the drain though...oh wait, I have a couple of good size aqarium filters sitting around here someplace...yep the wheels are turning now. Thanks for the inspiration.

Update as of noon on Sunday November 6, 2005

Yellow perch purchased: 452
Number lost in transport: 2
Mortalities from temporary overflow: 3
Euthanized due to deformity: 1

Number remaining: 446

Observations: Approximately twenty of the fish have distinguished themselves as dominant. These fish are close to 6 inches. About half of the fish are apparently not feeding yet. Overall body condition of these fish is good, but their abdomens are sunk in and don't seem interested in the feed. I called the supplier and he said that I should switch to their original Zigler slow-sinking feed. I am in the process of acquiring this feed at this time. Throwing in a nightcrawler creates a frenzy. None of the fish are able to consume a whole nightcrawler, but the larger yellow perch end up with the broken up pieces.

Plan: Remove the 100 slowest growers in about a month after trying new feed. I don't have enough room for all 446 to grow out so somebody has to go. I have several pondmeisters locally who would happily take them.

Wow, I go to Hong Kong for 9 days and you guys are already wintering up. I must admit that this is an ambitious project and you once told me I had too much time on my hands.
I really thought that the someone would have done this with tilapia first. Bruce there is an aquaculture project somewhere in the northeast where they are raising fish at a much greater ratio than yours, I will try to relocate it. The key to their success was water movement and filtration while feeding at an extreme rate. You have the flow and filteration part,.and as an aside, wouldn't the flow of water protect your pipes from freezing? That is a question from a warm weather guy who could no ever imagine 10 degrees fahrenheit, and would struggle with 10 celsius.
I am pretty sure the gas induces giggling but is not addicting. I have however, read reports of its affect on the gonads.
Here is the link, it refers to a dentist being a big influence.http://www.auri.org/news/ainjul98/tilapia.htm

Update, as of noon on Wednesday, November 9th.

I arrived at the farm and found the tank to be in the midst of a massive algae bloom. Debris was everywhere. I threw in one pellet and "blam", a yellow perch hammered it. Then I threw in a nightcrawler and once again fish were nailing it from every direction. DO was measured at 9ppm so the water quality was OK otherwise.

It took me approximately 15 minutes to drain the water, all the while scrubbing the sides of the tank. The refilling took about an hour and the water looked just as perfect as it did before the bloom.

Surprisingly, the fish ate a nightcrawler immediately after the tank was cleaned. They seemed unphased by all the activity.

While the water was down I removed 108 of the smallest YP to reduce the BOD on the system.

My total number of fish is now 338. One perch was almost seven inches?!? Looks like I've got a cannibal.

Bruce :

I can see it now -- a movie -- Clash of the Titians- Cannibal Yellow Perch vs. Toothed Condello Bluegill - watch them fight as they dodge the sweeper nozzles. :p

That is EXACTLY what I want.

Just throw in about five female feed trained smallies and twenty male feed trained redears. I would have pondmeisters from all around the country coming to visit me!!

I want to reserve my spot now.

"Hurry, hurry! Step right up! See the Amazing Condello Brothers and Sister Rose Circus!

See the Terrifying Cannibal King Perch - Able to eat small siblings in a single gulp!
See Dr. Frankenbruce's Giant False-Toothed Bluegill! Watch him gain weight before your very eyes!
See the Astounding Reciprocating Algal Bloom and observe it wax and wane on a precise ten minute cycle!

Come one, come all! Free 42% protein fish food for the Kiddies! Hurry, hurry, hurry!"

Theo, like Barney said of Ernest T " You're a nut"

Update, 1400 hours, Wednesday, November 16...

Outdoor temperature has plummeted and so has the temperature inside my Morton building. Temperature outside was 22 degrees F. Temperature in the Morton building was 40 degrees F.
Temperature inside the "Perch Hood" was 50 degrees F.
Temperature of the water was 52 degrees F.
Still no mortalities. The water wasn't algaefied yet, but I still drained off all of the water and replaced with new. There were no pellets in the water so I had to assume that perch are feeding, however when I threw some pellets in the perch largely ignored them, perhaps because they didn't want to come to the surface with my ugly mug in the background. I broke up 20 nightcrawlers into about 60 pieces which the perch gobbled up without hesitation, and the bigger perch almost always seemed to get the snack. An interesting observation was that when a night crawler is thrown in as a small piece, the perch will grab it about four inches below the surface, but when an entire nightcrawler is thrown in the yellow perch scatter to the corner until it hits the bottom, then they get up the nerve to come up and start pecking.

The perch are clearly diverging in size, just like the HSB that I raise, with the biggest ones running about 5.5 inches (and one crazy 7 incher). My partner wanted some perch for his pond so I took out the 41 smallest ones and brought them in to town.

P.S. If this commentary is a little mundane let me know. Maybe it can be used as a sleep aid.

Keep up the commentary, Bruce. I read it last thing at night and sleep like a baby. :p

Seriously, please continue. I am interested in how both the YP AND the hardware do.

50 deg inside the perch tent sounds good. You're running a trickle of water while away as planned, with no "hard water" problems outside the tent?

Brucie wrote: "P.S. If this commentary is a little mundane let me know. Maybe it can be used as a sleep aid."

It's so funny that you mentioned that. Last night, my daughter couldn't fall asleep. I thought to myself what better time than now to learn about Yellow Perch? So I started reading this thread to her. Sure enough, her eyes started to glaze over, then she burped and fell asleep.

Thanks Bruce!

Theo, the water runs into and out of the tank within the tent structure, so no hard water evident. I'm still just a little nervous about the really cold weather to come. I guess if I lose 'em, I lose 'em. I still haven't used any heater, so I've got the option of turning that on at some point. I don't consider it a fire hazard, but just the same I'd rater not run a heating element until absolutely necessary.

Bruce -- one thought, although you probably already know this. When you cull out the smaller ones, don't assume that they necessarily are non-feeders. Often, it's a dominance thing, as you already mentioned. When the 100 small ones are put in a tank by themselves, they often will all feed. Of course, they'll develop a new dominance hierarchy as well. :-) Pardon me if this is "old" info.

Dave, what you've stated is very, very true of HSB, and I'm sure that ultimately I'll see the same phenomenon in this YP project. I briefly mentioned to my wife that I'd like to grow out some of the smaller ones in my house.

Can you say "Icy Stare".... :rolleyes:

Well, I thought you probably knew, but posted just in case. We saw the same thing when feed training largemouth bass and smallmouth bass, back in the day when I still did some fish culture work.

Icy stare, eh? Hmm, can't say as my wife has done that, although I only have one cichlid aquarium and one setter in the house. Oh wait...maybe I did see just a tad bit of ice when I recently happened to mention in an off-the-cuff manner that it was about time to start thinking about a second setter as the first is already 6. :-)

That's so funny.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Anyone else out there start a project on your pond and get that "Are you for real?" look?

I just got back from the pond in Miss. for 5 days. Started out 82 and humid, ended up 32 and windy. My wife now sees me on the computer and asks, "Are you fishing again"? I've got to get my comp. running again, so I can have some privacy!

[QUOTE]My partner wanted some perch for his pond so I took out the 41 smallest ones and brought them in to town."

With partners like that, who needs enemies.

The closest I come to getting that icy stare is when I am single-mindedly working a project to the exclusion of everything else, knowing that I can get it finished just the way I want in only 25% more time than I have available. In those circumstances my wife will, out of the blue, complain that I am being obsessive.

Dames!?!

Yesterday I took 6 more YP out of the tank to give to my partner. I traded him for a 1 litre Diet Mountain Dew. I took the tiniest ones I could find, but it's getting evident that all fish are growing at least a little. One YP was trapped under the inlet and perished.

If my count is correct I should now have 290 YP left in the tank. All remaining fish look to be in great shape. The best part is watching them feed on night crawlers, but now the pellet feeding is getting pretty regular.

Bruce:

What range of lengths are they up to now?

Generally 4-6.5 inches, with a couple of piggies that I haven't measured lately but look at least an inch bigger than the others.

The best part is that the overall body condition seems to be on the upswing. It's pretty encouraging!

Bruce :

As I have not yet killed a million fish I am not an aquaculturist so these questions may not be applicable.

First at what # x weight will there be to much bio-mass in the Walmart- special chinese aquarium to keep them safely ( a risk level a million killer(like Dr. Frankenbruce) is ok with)? Second should such a Dr. with access to gas , drugs and the like consider adding some antibiotic , salt, slime coat protectant or other aquaculturist concoction to protect his investment? :p ewest

Sophisticated RAS (recirculating aquaculture systems) will advertise as high as one pound of growout for every five gallons of water. I've always thought this was pretty ambitious for a recirc system, but might actually be doable for a open ended system like this. I have the huge advantage of not really caring how many pounds I grow out because I don't have to sell fish for a living, so I'm really just doing it to grow out a certain number of fish for my own personal stocking that meet the criteria of fast growth, agression and feed utilization. I believe if I select for these traits it will greatly benefit my recreational ponds, not to mention the fact that fish stocked will be less subject to predation.

I wish I knew enough about fish antibiotics or growth supplements to be able to boost the health of these YP. Is there anyone who knows a little about animal supplements (growth hormone, even ).

Nope!

Bruce :

I think CB1 is trying to keep an advantage on you. He knows a lot and is not talking.

Try this link for supply ideas.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.subsections/sid/21

This for fish drugs

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.categories/ssid/270

Just having a little fun. I don't know any secrets. Honest.

Me too.

Feeding time in the perch bucket!



...and a little variance in size. Diet Dew trade fodder vs. future Cecilesque trophy!

Today, December 3, I visited the Po'boy RAS tank. The fish looked great. I broke up 16 nightcrawlers and enjoyed the battles that took place over every scrap. I tried hard to count and I thought I saw seven different perch that were way bigger than the others, and probably 40 more that were the next level down. There were very, very few fish now that looked malnourished. I filled another tank with water and took 62 YP's out to give to NEDOC. He provided me with some really good looking male bluegill earlier this year, and he is picking up my new feed, so I removed these fish for his use. I strongly suspect that these fish are practically all females now. All of the fish I removed were in good body condition, although they apparently weren't as dominant as some that remained.

I now have 228 yellow perch remaining in the tank. I emtied and cleaned the tank with a nice windshield squeegie from Wal-mart. You know, that kind with a sponge/abrasive net on one side and the flat, flexible rubber on the other. This made quick work of the cleanup job.

Bruce :

Did I detect a second walmart special chinese RAS or just a spare tank in waiting. Good to hear the YP are doing well. When I used to clean my BG aquarium (with out draining)I was concerned with cleaning the sides and leaving or letting the side growth stay in the aquarium even though it was filtered. I used a cheap siphon when I cleaned the sides to get most as I scraped it off. I did that by starting the siphon and holding it in one hand while I scraped right above the intake. It worked fairly well. I don't have any idea if that was necessary. ewest

Unfortunately I still only have one system. I have a second tank, but it wants to leak at the outlet and I'm currently trying to make it hold water a little better. I'd like to have at least four by next year. One for bluegill, one for yellow perch, one for redear sunfish and one for either largemouth bass or hybrid striped bass.

Bruce :

Shorty indicate in a post that your area had very cold temps. -2 if I remember last weekend. I was just checking to get the first cold weather report on the YP in the RAS.

= walmart special chinese

Here are some fact sheet links on southern RAS don't know if they help your project or not.

http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm?catid=24

It's been horribly cold, and the snow has made it impossible for me to visit the farm to check on the Po'Boy Chinese system. If I'm lucky, the roads will be passable tonight and I'll go check. Let's hope I don't have frozen solid perch!!! Good links, ewest.

Brrrrrrr!!!

It was -2 (actual temp) this morning with a forcast high of a whopping 9 degrees today. We also got another inch of snow last night. Burrrr....

Bruce, I hope your YP are doing fine. IMO A small space heater on low keeping the room temperature up a little bit would probably work well to keep things from freezing up. I base this on the homing pigeons I have in my coup, their breathing/body heat keeps their waterer from freezing up until the outside temperature gets below 20 degrees, this is with a hole in the wall so they can come and go out of the coup.

Are you interested in coming out to look at them sometime? My only concern with a space heater is the minor water spray/mist coming off the sweeper nozzle. I'd like to show it off to someone.

I would love to see them some time, especially your YP tank.

I'm looking for some ideas on how to grow out a small number of SMB to a size that can be stocked in our pond as a bonus fish. Finding SMB bigger than 2-3 inches has been tough. So tough that I have been kicking around an idea of building a SMB only pond with rock bass and orange spotted sunfish as prey, then moving some of the SMB to the bigger pond once they a 12" or larger. I have to thank Dave Willis for giving me some ideas how to spend my money.

My other options are to grow them out in tank or transplant a few wild ones from the Missouri River near Yankton. Seeing your set up my will help me make some decisions as to which direction I may want to go.

SHORTY, we may need some educated input from others, but I believe that smallmouth just don't grow that fast. A 12" smallie may be 2 years old (?).

Cecil should know about SMB growth rates as he does grow them out. I don't know what size he starts with though.

This spring, my fish guy is going to swing by Cecil's place and take a bunch of adult SMB off his hands (and maybe some other fish). Cecil commented on another thread that he had bigger smallies if anyone wanted them. If there are no other takers besides myself, I'll try to get all of them.

Heck, I think the 12" LMB's in our pond are on average are 2 years old, at ice out in the spring I typically see lots of 3-1/2" to 5" LMB in shallow. I was thinking a 12" 2 year old smallie might be big under natural growing conditions for our area. Here is what got me thinking about stocking some smallmouth:

http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/stocking_smallmouth_bass.html

BTW - I think I'm starting to catch both the Cecil and Bruce envy all at the same time! I might even have a little bit of Dave Willis envy too!

SHORTY - - My cell number is (402) 429-2912. I'm heading out through the frozen tundra to check the perch right now!!

I suppose that anybody who knows his physics, or heat pumps, or thermal budgets knows this kind of thing, but I just discovered something interesting.

We're in the middle of a really nasty cold spell, so I finally got out to the Morton Building and found the following temp. values.

General building--floor level: 32 F.

15 X 42 fish room with water tank--34 F. floor level.

Inside the insulated hood--41 F. floor level and 44 F. highest level.

Water in 150 gallon tank--54 F.

I was completely surprised that the cold building that was only insulated R-4 during a cold snap where outside temps are averaging about 5 F., did not have any impact on the tank. The heat energy in the well water was apparently plenty to overcome the cold air temperature.

Keep in mind that water is being injected at less than 1 gpm.

The yellow perch were in incredible shape and treated me to another agressive feeding, oblivious to the frigid outdoor weather. This is VERY encouraging!

Bruce (this may all be terribly obvious):

I'm assuming from the pictures that it's a newer building and is sealed pretty good.

I think as Winter goes along and the ground temp drops, the inside temperature will be lower and closer to what you expect. Inside temps in our horse barn (overnight, when all the doors are shut) tend to go down all Winter long. It's a lot like the bottom of a pond having a higher temp at the beginning of Winter due to the stored solar energy from Summertime, which slowly dissipates.

Bruce :

That is great news !! I was concerned that you would have YP popsicles. You might get by with out a heater but I am not sure about that if you get a long real cold spell. What is the temp. of the well water? Seems like I saw an aquarium heater that floats so that it won't touch the sides and does not get to hot. I will see if I can find the link. ewest

Theo--I'll keep checking the floor temps and post them throughout the winter if you're interested. I'm sure you are right on the money (as always ) but it will be interesting to watch. We'll also see what it does to the water temperature. On the good side, the air temps will likely never get much worse than they are right now.

ewest--find that link!

Bruce:

Thinking along the lines of a non-destructive heater for the tank, TSC (or wherever you got the tank at) should also have submersible heaters that are safe for plastic tanks ($20-$25). They are made to mount through the drain hole (which you are already using) but can easily be attached to the other side using a hole saw (or drill and file) to cut in a new one. I did this with our first plastic tank, the one my wife complains about not being able to take the heater out of for Summertime.

I think they are supposed to keep the water about 40 deg F, which would be more than sufficient to prevent perch-sicles. I can post a picture of one if you want to see what they look like.

Roger, that.

Bruce :

Here is a link. I think you can get (look under) a sub. heater and sub. heater module and together they will work as the outside of the module does not get hot. But check on that I am not sure exactly how it works . They also have a controler that has a big temp. range -30 to 100+. Also a lot of other options. It looks like some of the pond heaters would work also.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/listings.subsections/sid/38

Bruce:

Here are two similar types of submersible plastic tank heaters. In the side view you can see the adjustable screws which serve as feet to keep large animals from pushing the heating element into the bottom of the tank (for when your YP get REALLY BIG). These are both 1500 watt models.

I hate to admit this, but I still don't quite get it. Is this device secured to the lip of the tank? Or does is sit on the bottom?

You remove the drain plug or put in a second hole at the same height above the bottom of the tank. You unscrew the black flange from the right-hand side (in the above views) of the heater, put the heater inside the tank and pull the electric cord outside the tank through the hole. You rescrew the flange (with a rubber gasket like the drain plug assembly uses) back on to the outside to tighten both sides (red and black) together on the inside and outside, respectively, of the tank. The heater coil is inside, under the water, fixed in place, unable to touch the plastic sides of the tank. The electric cord is outside.

If this isn't clear enough Bruce, I can take pix while mounting the spare heater in the spare tank. Let me know.

Theo, that's pretty neat. I assume that the 2 long screws are adjustment and leveling screws to counteract the weight of the heater and to keep it level and away from the bottom of the tank. I've only used floating de-icers that are pretty trouble ridden.

Is there any way of thermostatically controlling it? I would think that controlling the water temp would be a big plus for Bruce.

I have not seen any user-controlled thermostat available on any of the lower priced tank heaters (that a cheapskate like me will buy). The built-in thermostats are supposed to maintain, say, 40 deg F. I have never had one that ran what I would consider "too hot," but have had one or two (see above photos) which may have been set too low (never did any checking, if they didn't keep the tank ice-free I replaced them). So it would probably be a good idea to test one for a little while before trusting it with fish. Bruce could probably do this in the back yard in town.

LOL!!! Floaters worked OK for us for 15 years in cast iron bathtubs, but I have not set a plastic trough on fire since I switched to fixed, submersible heaters.

DD :

As noted it is a cost issue. See the link below for a temp. controller for a heater at about $100. The link in post above has quite a few options including pond heaters which may work well for a small RAS but most inexpensive heaters are usualy set for a bottom temp. of 40 and only adjustable above that temp. ewest

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9207/cid/2214

From what I know of Nebraska winters, I dont think a thermostat or adjustable model will be needed. If necessary, he can use the timer running the heater.

BM :

You are right Bruce can get by with a space heater. Bruce , I think is concerned that the spray from the system will get on the floor and the heater plus eletc..... and bzzzzzt --no more fish no more Bruce. Plus an in tank RAS heater and controller will allow total control of the RAS temp. without heating the building.

I'm going out to the farm again tomorrow afternoon to check the tank. If the temperature of the water is still 54 degrees, then I don't think I'll need any auxiliary heating at all. That would be ideal. Luckily, yellow perch seem to grow pretty well at this temp. What other fish can you say this about? Bluegill maybe. By the same token, will the water stay really cool in the summer? One thought I had was to route the water outside for a couple of hundred feet through black garden hose to warm it. I'd like the summer temperatures to get up into the upper 60's or even low 70's. My ultimate goal would be to have 50 or so big healthy predator resistant yellow perch to stock in my pond every year. The rest I might even be able to just eat. Maybe for helping me I could ship some of you guys some tasty YP filets for Christmas next year!

Yeah, the water mists a little bit when the sweeper stream hits the surface of the water. That mist hitting my quartz space heater would make me a teeny bit nervous.

Bruce,

With all due respect are you really sure they really grow that well at 54 degrees? That's well below their optimum range. Just because they seem to be feeding well does not mean they are growing fast. I've seen this feeding trout through the ice. They feed like gangbusters but they are not growing much in that cold of water if at all.

That said your system, knowledge, and ingenuity is impressive. You're giving me ideas.

You're absolutely right, Cecil. There's a clear difference between "definitely growing" and "growing well". I'm sure that by aquaculture standards, or any standards, this isn't an excellent growth rate. I think I'm just allowing my enthusiasm for the fact that they're growing at all to cloud my vision a little. One thing I am sure of (I think) is that they're growing quite a bit better at 54 degrees and constant feedings, than they would be at 39 degrees under the ice. Ultimately if I keep them healthy through the winter I hope they'll release well into one of my well fed ponds AND THEN take off in their growth rate. Regardless, it's pretty exciting.

This is so true. I share your excitement!

Just had a customer bring in a 1 lb. 9 oz. bluegill. He raises fish in aquariums as a hobby. I think he said he had nine of them. He says he has hatched bluegills in them and grown them out in an aquarium to slab size. Interesting. I think I am going to try some flow through in a tank for bluegill fry next to the bluegill pond. Eventually with perch and all my species. I hate buying and hauling fish!

"From what I know of Nebraska winters, I dont think a thermostat or adjustable model will be needed. If necessary, he can use the timer running the heater."

What I was trying to say, and did so rather poorly, is that Ne. winters are cooold, and that an in tank heater wouldn't need a thermostat. I dont think you will boil your fish. They may even get some 60-70 temp water. If it got too warm, then the timer could be used. As someone alluded to, as the ground gets colder, so will the bldg. 1500 watts directly in the water beats 1500 watts from space heater. Hope I didnt confuse myself again.

Makes perfect sense to me.

If I remember correctly, LMB metabolism halves or doubles with an 8 deg temp change. Using that to estimate, Bruce's YP should be using about 4 times more feed in the trough than they could under the ice - if they could even find all the food they would use down there in the cold, dark abyss.

Any growth is better than no growth at all. :p Sounds like a line out of a song but is so true. Not to mention the fun of watching it all happen under your direction . From our perspective it is great to be part of the trip via these posts not to mention the learning involved -- from RASs to YP and their metab. to Neb. winters to po-boy endg. methods. Thanks Bruce and CB1 for the ride and keep up the good work. ewest

Well, I finally did it. I bought another Rubbermaid container and set it up at home. I can't do flow through, so I set it up primarily for the enjoyment of watching a few of the yellow perch while eating and interacting. I took 32 fish out of the primary tank at the farm. Three of these were put into the holding tank for NEDOC and the other 29 made the trip into town. The tank has a standard aquarium aerator, albeit a powerful one, and I will be replacing 10-20 per day. I will also do a little siphoning of solid waste.

Now here's the interesting part. These fish were moved to another tank which would look identical to the interior of the tank from which they came. After three days these fish are still spooky as all get out! They ate a broken up night crawler during the day yesterday when I was gone, but if I enter the room they scatter, even whacking their little heads on the side of the tank. Curious, I thought, that they would need to be retrained to my presence. The water temp is about ten degrees warmer, and the ceiling would look different to them, but I'm assuming I look about the same. I'll try to document how soon they become acclimated to the new surrounding.

Another curiosity is that when I got the fish from the farm this weekend the outside temps had moderated into the 40's, the inside of the building had warmed to 40 on the floor, but the water in the tank measured at 56 F.!! I'm not sure how the water could be warmer than what's coming out of the pump. I thought my thermometer was extremely accurate. Could the metabolism of all those fish and food and waste be increasing the water temp a smidge?

Now my total numbers in the original Po'boy stands at 198 fish. I'll try to get a pic up soon.

"There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home!"

- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe it's that their brains are ten degrees warmer?

Bruce, did you move small ones, big ones, or a random selection?

I was afraid to move the biggest ones because you should never mess with success. I think these fish represent the average. Big enough to have lots of potential.

Are you getting any solar heat gain from a nearby window shinning on the dark tank?

Bingo! Good job, SHORTY. I have a south facing window just a few feet away and the readings were taken in the afternoon. The Pond Boss forum kicks tail.

Bruce :

Check the light placement . At the farm they had light from a south window all day. Did they have overhead light when you checked on them ? At the house do you walk between the light and tank so as to cast a shadow on the water? Do you walk in and turn on a light and then walk between it and them? Warmer temps. plus more light = more active fish . If light is not the source of disruption then what about noise/vibration.

Bruce, I am finally back on PondBoss. Dang, I can't believe I missed 6 weeks of this thread. I may have just the solution for keeping your tank off of the cold floor. I will bring it tonight(if I don't get iced in).

Kind of a fascinating development. I've been feeding the 36% protein feed you can get at Tractor Supply Company to the perch. It just happened to be something that my bluegill have liked, but was cheap and available when I got the perch so I tried it. NEDOC got me some of the good stuff tonight. It was a 50% protein and a 1.5 mm slow sink and the perch went NUTS over it! I threw in probably 100 or so pellets and they were gone instantly. I think that this is going to accelerate my growth significantly. I know, I know, I know....I'm an aquaculturist and I should know better, but this time of the year it's hard for me to drive 40 minutes to the Purina mill and get feed. Thanks to NEDOC I think we're gonna see some bigger fish.

Incidentally SHORTY showed up and we had a little impromptu Pond Boss midwest regional meeting. Lusk didn't show up but we toasted him with a beer anyway.

Bruce -Yperch "do best" in dim light; just bright enough to see to walk around. Brighter lights will contribute to the spooky behavior. Some RAS systems use constant 24 hr dim light while others use light & dark cycles. Some even get fancy and have lights come on with an increasing slow sunrise progression. Either will work for you. Cecil and I keep preaching about the benefits of higher protein foods. You can lead a horse to water but some are still hesitant to drink.

Bruce, I really enjoyed the impromptu meeting last night with you and NEDOC, your YP tank has me thinking about some things I could do.

I will be contacting Anheuser Busch for some sponsorship money for our next 'impromptu' regional Pond Boss meeting.

Nice meeting you SHORTY.

BTW, SHORTY, that wasn't a YP tank that was a SMB tank that had been invaded by YP.

Bruce :

What do you think caused the YP to go after the new food? The fact that it sunk slowly or pellet size or the smell/taste released into the water. If it was a real fast reaction from the YP then I would wonder if it were the latter but it sure could be. It could be a combo of all of these or maybe just hungery .

IMHO, it was the fact that these fish were acclimated to this exact size and brand of feed early in life. NEDOC acquired the feed from the grower that I got the perch from originally, so I think there is some imprinting on that taste and consistency. This may have some implications to other Pond Bossers who are selecting feed for their ponds. If they got there fish from a particular hatchery or grower it might be beneficial to find out what type of feed they were raised on.

I also think the smaller size was important, but we checked the ingredients and I'm under the impression that fish meal was a primary protein delivering component in the feed that the YP like, while soy product was the protein component in the feed they didn't like.

Regardless, it was impressive how quickly and agressively the yellow perch switched to the new feed. They seemed to "remember" it very quickly.

That's what I was thinking!

I'm going to check out the cost of the bottom half of a concrete 2-pc septic tank, it should hold 400 to 500 gallons, the only drawback is that once it is set in place, it can't be moved easily.

Cecil, don't you think that this might be an economical way to select for feed trained fish when it comes to smallmouth bass, largemouth bass etc? As expensive and hard to come by as they can be it seems like you could cheaply purchase a bunch of advanced fingerlings, then after a couple of months the fish that are growing are obviously the agressive and/or feed friendly fish. Then you could sell or give away the smaller ones which would probably be great fish for someone anyway?

Everybody else-Am I just dreaming, or would this not be a possibility to get purchased fish up to a size that they wouldn't get devoured the second they hit your pond? Even if you don't have well water, you could siphon waste once every couple of days. Just wondering...

Bruce :

I want to check on a couple of your points to see what the the research provides. I think there are several ways to get to the point of having/selecting advanced fingerlings (or adults) with excellent quality and growth potential. Your approach is outstanding as it reaches that goal and it allows for a lot of fun and hands on learnig and you get to make the choice of fish and methods to get there. I do think your method selects for genetic growth potential. What I am not sure about is does it select also (it may well) for survivability . I think there is some info on this on both sides of the question. But in your approach it is important to question the hatchery at length on its brood stock sources and their life history. I would like to see someone start with top quality local wild fish have them spawn in an RAS and then do what you are doing.

This is gerat absolutely fascinating. Thank you Bruce for starting this topic.

ewest--I defintely agree with and understand your point of survivability. This encompasses many variables including ability to escape, pursue, tolerance to water quality issues, intelligence and adaptability. One very important aspect that we have nailed though is initial size. You can't teach length!

Bruce,

Absolutely. I think you also should be able to take it a step farther, and not even have to purchase fish of any size from a supplier. But what you are doing right now will give you valuable experience. You can work up to this as you gain experience.

I would eventually like to produce my own fish completely from eggs from my own broodstock as I'm sure you would. I belive you're already doing this with bluegills?

As far as yellow perch eggs they are easy to collect from a pond if you have broodstock in the pond, and there now is good information on how to hatch them etc.
I have had YP numerous egg strands in the pond edges that I could have collected. That said, one of the difficulties with the perch is once you hatch them indoors you must provide zooplankton ASAP, and even are able to provide zooplankton by feeding water in from the pond the fry are so small you run the risk of losing them in your tank overflow. (At least that is what a professor from U of W told us at a recent Aquaculture meeting. From what I have seen most producers hatch them indoors and then plant the fry back into a special pond. Once they get to be a certain size then they feed train them.

I already have good bluegill reprodution in my bluegill pond as you probably do, and it would be quite easy to trap enough in one or more minnow traps. I plan on doing that this spring. I want to put them into a tank and feed them and have water from the bluegill pond flow through via gravity or a ram pump. I guess I would need to bring them indoors in winter of which I do have a storage shed partially underground.

Sure would like to produce all my own fish and I think I can do it. Just wish I had more ponds!

I'm putting in a "floating raceway" into my new trout pond ajacent to a pier this spring. My well water flow will drop into this floating raceway and exit into the pond like it normally does. I should be able to easily regulate it as it comes out of a PVC pipe. If I want less flow I can put a gate valve on the end of pipe with a diversion pipe on the side. I hope to grow out trout fingerlings to planting size in the raceway and the next step will be to put in another well on another part of the property with a low flow and iron filter to hatch my own trout eggs. I dont' want to run the present one at 38 gpms all year just to hatch eggs and it's not needed for the main trout pond in winter anyway.

From the old Johnny Carson Show :

Karnak -- a po-boy RAS , a hatchery order for
SMB fingerlings and 50 % protein
SMB feed.

question -- What will be under the xmas tree for
Shorty.

Bruce :

You are correct there is no sub. for length. But even advanced fingerlings/small adults get eaten when placed in predator filled ponds . Its just that the % survival is better but you are working from much smaller numbers. That is why I posted the topic on the study about protecting newly stocked fish (all sizes) for a short period to reduce predation. Also on a cost/effort basis it is hard to RAS enough adult fish to stock a 15 acre pond . That is why it is hard to find large advanced fingerling/adult LMB . Most people don't or can't pay a high enough price to warrant hatchery growout to length over 8in.+-. That seems to be changing. I have had a much easier time finding them lately vs. 5 years ago. Many factors to survivability and fitness and growth --so little time to figure them out.

:D

We actually stocked 250 2-3" SMB in the pond last fall, this was 2-3 months after thinnig the LMBs down and then the subsequent fish kill we had, combined those two events removed 20 LMB's per acre in the 12-17" range (mostley 13"ers), or around 200 LMB's in total. The question is, how many SMB's survived the guantlet of the remaining LMB's? Personally I would be happy if 10% survived but I have not seen any of the SMB to date. Even after the LMB thinning there was only a slight decrease in the LMB catch rate. Bruce's growout tank idea may be the best way I can get SMB's above predation size so they can get established. BTW - I think I am starting to have a little bit of Bruce envy after seeing his fish last night.

SHORTY, speaking from experience on this one, I think you just stocked some largemouth bait. I think I know someone who would be interested in obtaining some grownout SMB as well.

I told you last night that meeting Bruce is dangerous. You need to stop the addiction while you can. Today I started working on a small project that involves a 150 gal. tank, a new drain in my shop and a small water heater. When my wife finds out, I will be afraid to go to sleep at night. I will blame it all on Bruce.

The heavy weed cover in the pond may have provided a safe haven for the SMB, there were also lots and lots of similar sized BG for the remaining LMBs to eat last fall with a lot less compettition. Just in case you are right though, a growout pond is the way to insure that it works. BTW - Visiting Bruce is dangerous!

Shorty :

Sounds to me like NEDOC may be a customer for some SMB advanced fingerlings. Seems like others on the forum are also looking. May be some $$'s in this idea for new SMB grower.

SHORTY, I did something very similar to what you did with the SMB stocking. I'll have to confirm the year dates vs. my records, but the time gaps are correct.

In spring '04, we stocked 300 SMB in my pond. The SMB were in the 3-5" range, with most being 3". My pond was 6-7 acres and had an existing population of LMB, Crappie, Bluegill, Yellow Perch, and Bullheads. There were all sizes of LMB up to about 20" long.

Throughout that summer '04, I don't think I saw any of the SMB. However, they were there as I know now.

In Fall '04, I stocked 50 more SMB that were about 6".

This spring, I could see two distinct sizes of SMB. One size group was around 5-6" and the other group was 8-10".

So I think that you will have some survivors.

I also believe that the SMB is the smartest fish in the world, and should have a seat in the highest levels of Local, State, and National U.S. Government.

Smallmouth for President in '08?

Sunil :

Your SMB sure are smart. They were center stage on TV and there are a lot of people who try and can't do that. I guess that makes them smarter than a lot of the Hollywood crowd.

ewest, it's funny you mention that because one of my smallies just won a spelling bee against Cameron Diaz! I am so proud.

Now, several of my SMB are in training to try out for Jeopardy. They wanted to be on Wheel of Fortune, but I convinced them that they couldn't spin the wheel.

Sunil, there is nothing smart about running for governmental office. First, they would have to go to law school. Then, if that didn't work out, they could go into politics.

If some of you don't remember I had all but five of 200 fingerling smallmouth escape from a floating cage due to a undectected hole in the side. I thought they were history due to the numerous largemouth in the pond, but they weren't. I now have more than I want and would gladly give them all to Sunil. Hopefully I will be able to remove as many as possible for him to pick up. I've actually had some reproduction too even though I lack a sand gravel bottom.

Cecil, we're on for the spring, for sure.

I didn't want to hog them all, but I will if no one else would like to take some.

Sunil,

They are all yours. I'm trying to arrange a shocker boat to come out but not sure it will happen. They haven't called me back and may not want to deal in taxidermy mounts this time. And it's expensive although I might get them down in price as they wouldn't be doing a survey. If not, I will just have to fish the pond hard for about a week before your hauler comes and put the fish in floating cages as I would do if we shocked the pond.

My goal it to concentrate on fewer species and the smallmouth just don't sell very well as there are parts of the country where taxidermists can easily go out and catch large ones i.e. Lake Erie and the TVA Lakes.

Cecil, how big are the floating cages you use? Did you make them or did you purchase them? I'm still looking at ideas!

SHORTY, I have a nice sized floating cage you are more than welcome. Do you know anyone down this way who could pick it up?

Shorty,

I have three of them. Two 7feet by 7 feet. And one 10 by 10. All but one are on the bottom of the pond next to the pier acting as structure when not being used. I believe they will last longer underwater.

1 1/2 inch PVC and the three cornered PVC fittings are available from Stoney Creek Equipment Company. http://www.stoneycreekequip.com/

I'll take you up on that NEDOC!

Thank you for the link Cecil!

Headline: WHAT NOT TO DO WITH YOUR YELLOW PERCH GROWOUT SYSTEM.

Last night I was draining twenty gallons of water out of my home growout tank since this system doesn't have flowthrough capability. As I was draining it I turned on the sink hose to simultaneously fill. After about ten minutes, one of my perch suddenly shot to the surface and jumped about two inches in the air! "That's strange", I thought to myself. In a little bit he started swimming upside down. It was at this point that I realized I had stupidly turned on the HOT water nozzle and the temp in my tank had gone from 65 degrees to 85 degrees.

I quickly turned on the cold water and was able to return the water to normal with only the one mortality.

Hey, I told you before, I'm no Alfred Einstein.

Bruce,

Welcome to the club!

BTW it's Albert Einstein not Alfred Einstein. :p

See! You already know more than me!

I think the Doc knows its Albert; afterall he is his cousin Dr. Frankenstein..er Frankenbruce.

Bruce,

Your getting closer to being a certified fish farmer. You almost killed your stock!

Bruce, do you have city water or from a well. If city water, the chlorine doesn't present a problem?

I'm using a dechlorinating agent that only costs 9.99 for enough to dechlorinate 90,000 gallons, and supposedly counteracts some of the metal ions that are present. I do think that the city water overall isn't as good for the fish as the well water at the pond. What do you think about that?

Bruce :

I am no certified fish farmer and I killed a bunch of BG in my aquarium by absent mindedly not putting in the declor and adding our city water. It was a good thing that there were only about 20 at the time. Chlorine in your water kills fish quick.

Bruce :

How are the hot tub batch of YP and their kin the cold tub group? Any new developements? How is your better half and boss of the house taking the new residents ?

Great news for cold tub perch......not so hot for the hot tubbies.

After over two months at the farm I still haven't had a floater. Unfortunately that is not the case for the fish at home. Each of the last three days I've found a perch that, to the best of my abilities of perception, was not "asleep", but maybe just a little dead.

I decided that I must have water quality issues so I relocated the home yellow perch back to the farm. I think my wife was killing them as I slept.....maybe she's been fishing for them with conventional hooks instead of the circle hooks I gave her for Christmas last year....

You know, Bruce, I was really having a tough time thinking of a last gift to give my wife for Christmas this year. Thanks for that idea.

Circle Hooks it is!! Well, my shopping is done.

I got a new digital fish scale for my 16 month old daughter. She likes to stack toy blocks a lot, so I know she's really going to love the scale.

Sunil,
You are an incredibly insightful and thoughtful husband and father....your family is truly blessed. I hope they appreciate this.

Bruce :

What are the YP getting (or wanting) for Christmas ? A new tub , some high prot. food , a temp. controller , adjustable lights ,a bag of worms. I don't think they like circle hooks or hot tubs. How did the return trip/transplant go?

I'm attempting to go where no Pondmeister has gone. I'm going to try to get video of the yellow perch feeding tomorrow thanks to my brother and webmaster Jason. I'll try to post a link if we're successful. Stay tuned.

For Christmas, the yellow perch get live nightcrawlers....and coal in the stockings of the slowest growers.

What a tyrant you are, Bruce. Poor Yellow Perch getting coal in his stocking when all he wanted was a new home in the new aquarium at your office.

Bruce showed the YP "Finding Nemo." Now the last place they want to go is an aquarium in a dentist's office.

After seeing " Finding Nemo " I can see the YP now, pen in pelvic fin :

We the YP in order to form a more perfect YP union, to ensure a domestic supply of nightcrawlers , to secure to ourselves and our cohorts freedom in the big pond, do hereby declare , among other things , that all hatchery men will be well read on Hatchery Management prior to starting an RAS and in all events before killing a million fish.

Ben Frankfish
George Washington Yellowperch
Tomas Perchason
John Adams Freeperch
Madison Fast Grower
..... et al

VIDEO CLIP OF YELLOW PERCH PROJECT!!

Windows Media Player capabilities required.

http://www.bizfunctional.com/wipers/videos/videos.asp#

Click on Po'Boy, watch, and give me some input please!!

Perch Porno!

Quick! How to do I delete the history? When the wife finds this I'm in deep doo-doo!

Man Bruce I'm worried about ya!

Seriously that was really cool.

Bruce :

That was GREAT !!! The YP are sure active. What is the water temp? How are the ones who moved into your house and got kicked out after first being boiled alive? I may have to start a Bruce envy post -- I am just starting to post pics. and you are making movies with a sound track and including future stars. Soon they will be up there with Sunil's famous and smart SMB. :p

Bruce, don't ever let anyone tell you that you're not a freak; You are. But you're a nice freak.

I second that! With that music going I kept expecting to see a perch pull off a fin and toss it into the air. Or at the very least wrap itself around a pole (or rather a water hose).

On a serious note that was GREAT footage. I am impressed (and severely humbled).

Deb

My water temperature is 58 degrees F. I haven't sampled a fish in awhile, but I think virtually every fish (90%) is over 4 inches now, with quite a few around 5 inches. They really look healthy and are in great body condition. All fish that made the transport back to the farm are alive, although it is impossible to differentiate between them and the others so I don't know how quickly they went back on the feed.

By my calculations there are 220 fish including the ones that spent some time sucking on city water.

Checked the yellow perch today. Still haven't encountered a single floater! When cleaning the tank, which takes about ten minutes, I took out 24 of the smallest ones. Interesting thing, though, is that the small ones that are coming out now look REALLY healthy. They were solid 3.75-4 inchers. Definitely had been using feed. I took them into town and traded for 1 case of Diet Mountain Dew with my partner.

196 fish left.

It must be that new smaller feed Bruce!

Did I forget to mention that I 'doctored' that feed a little bit? A little growth hormone so they would grow big enough to eat your Hybrid Stripers.

Next fall you can count me in for raising a few perch. I had my 6 gal. hot water heater hooked up in my shop yesterday. I am going to have to have you get me some of the 'hot tubby' perch. I think I am going to shoot for 65 degree water temps. My shop will run at 40-45 at all times so a slow trickle from the hot water heater might bump it up to the 60's.

Those perch might grow much faster in 65 degree water. That sounds ideal. Are you going to let the tank runoff go to your pond?

I would like to run the water off to my pond but I don't have a good way of doing that YET. I am thinking about how I can accomplish that.

I just had an idea. I need to build another pond so that I can send the runoff into it.

Got a note in the mail today that says the power to our farm will be turned of for a "period of time".

I currently don't have a battery powered aerator, nor do I have the time to go out and babysit the YP tomorrow. Not sure what to do. I guess I'll try to run out there tonight and turn the feeder off and increase the water flow so it's as fresh as possible at the time of shutoff.

I'm really nervous!

Bruce, is there anyway you can at least spray the water into the tank, or make is spout into the air before hitting the tank?

Maybe try to make a ghetto horizontal aeration system to get by?

EDIT: I re-read your post. Does the water turn off without power?

Can't you get a gas generator and check it (or have someone check it) once or twice a day?

Yes...the water AND aerator turn off when the power goes off. I wish I had a gas generator, but it's one of the few things I haven't scrounged up yet. I just wish I knew how long a period of time it will be off. Ten minutes wouldn't hurt anything.

Two hours might be disastrous.

Bruce, if you have time, go to a Rec Vehicle place and buy a 12 volt water pump. Use it like a fountain. Make the fountain squirt up or to the side and bounce off something and then back into the water. Or baffle it.

That's a good suggestion from net man.

Bruce, you gotta get a gas generator before you really need one (for something more important than a tank of YP)(PB audience gasps at Theo's blasphemy ).

Remember that when you really, REALLY need a generator, everyone else is likely to need one as well. And all your good looks won't help you find one when all the dealers within driving distance are sold out.

You should be able to pick up a 5kW steady state/6kW surge generator (small enough to move alone if you have to, large enough to handle any 110V/220V load short of central AC, should only have to be refueled 2-3 times a day) for well under $1K (my knowledge of generator prices is admittedly 4-5 years out of date). You probably kill more than a grand worth of fish in a year, right?

BTW, report in after the power outage and let us know that the perch are OK and how big they're getting, please.

Go to Walmart, get a 12 volt deep cycle battery for $40, get a 12 volt bilge pump/aerator. It will run for 24 or more hours on the battery. They have a bilge pump with a pvc pipe and diffuser on it for aeration.

Bruce :

What about a small O2 tank with a regulator/difusser like the one on CB1s system. I have a small 12v aerator which I use-- good for small jobs like moving fish in a tub.

Theo, I had to chastize Bruce also. I started to write it as a response here, but then thought to put it in a PM.

It did start off like..."Dammit Man don't be an idiot..." or something like that though.

You're all right on the money. I'm going to get a generator. I just got back from checking the fish and lucky I did! There was an algae bloom, which likely would have made things worse tomorrow. I turned off the feeder, increased the water flow by 300% and drained off all water to start fresh. This way when the power goes out the fish will start with O2 at saturation. Another good thing is that the air temps tomorrow are going to be between 45 and 50 degrees, so I shouldn't have to worry about the tank freezing. Tomorrow morning I'll see if I can get something to hook to my really good marine battery that I've got out there and start a battery backup. If I charge out there during lunch I'll check on the fish. I have one hour for lunch and it takes me 45 minutes round trip to check on fish. Maybe I can move my 1 pm patient to 1:15.

Update tomorrow!

I've got the battery. Will Wal-Mart have the bilge pump? I'm not sure how early TSC opens in the morning. They might have one.

The bilge pump is a really great idea. Don't know whether Wal Mart sells them, especially at this time of the year. I wouldn't think that TSC would have them but most sporting goods dealers will. TSC or an automotive parts dealer might have some sort of power converter that would let you use an aquarium aerator from Wal Mart.

Have a friend who has a cutting torch set? Use his oxygen bottle. A local welding supply house would probably rent a full tank. They sell oxygen bagged minnows and you can turn the flow down pretty low. Can your Dad be your gofer on this one?

Boy, I wish I was there. I think I have all of this stuff.

It was pretty considerate of you, Sunil, to PM that rather than put it on the open forum.

Who knows the characteristics of deep-cycle marine batteries?

If Bruce ran a 12V aerator off the battery, and kept a 110V trickle charger feeding the battery all the time, would that screw up the battery somehow or would it serve as an uninterruptable power supply for aeration while he was in town?

Can someone recommend a good generator for Bruce to get when he get's a chance?

Good question.

Man, you guys are really helpful!

Walmart will have the Rule bilge pumps that have styrofoam around them so they will float and a piece of PVC pointing up. It has a sort of cap on top that makes the water shoot back down and disperses it. Look in the fishing section. If not, just get the bilge pump, about 400-500 gal/hr. and add your own pipe with 2 90 degrees to point it back down. Put a screen over it like sink faucet aerator.

A trickle charger for battery will not hurt it. Get one that charges at 2 amps more than the pump draws. That is a good idea. I suggest letting it run on battery for a few hrs. weekly to keep the battery in good condition.

While at Walmart, go to plumbing and get a bag of Septic microbes. It comes in a red bag and is 5 bags inside that are to be flushed down the toilet in septic systems. Put part of a bag in the tank. The microbes will help keep the water in good condition.

Bruce :

Walmart is where I got my system ( $ 50) the small pump (baseball size) sits on bottom a small pipe runs to a clip on yellow sprayer that clips to the side/top of the tub. It sprays down into water. It runs off a 12 v battery. It was in the fishing section of the store. Good luck

I just edited my last post. The charger should supply 2 amps more than the pump draws. The pump will probably draw from 1.5 to 3 amps depending what you get. If it is to be running full time, it may be best to get a regulated 12 volt power supply(actually outputs 13-13.5 VDC. A 4 or 5 amp supply would be about right. I think Radio Shack should have one.

Got a call from my security company saying my power was out at 11am. This turned out to be very good for me because it was just before I had time to visit. By the time I reached the farm the power was already back on and I hadn't lost any fish. It must've been off for less than an hour. I restarted the feeder to run about 50% quantity tomorrow.

You can bet I'm going to get a generator and backup as you guys suggested. I'll start shopping this week.

I took an approximate inventory of YP today when I was checking on fish.

These are rough guesses:

3-4 in. - - 0 fish
4-5 in. - - 140 fish
5-6 in. - - 50 fish
6+ in. - - 6 fish

Still haven't had a single mortality, and body condition looks really good. I'm wondering if a couple of the bigger ones will develop eggs here in a month or two. I kind of doubt it, but if I keep them alive until next spring, I'm sure they will. At the current rate of growth I will need a bigger tank or I'll need to reduce the number of individuals to about 50 fish. That would be fine with me.

We have a 5000W Devilbiss (6250W surge) with a Briggs & Stratton engine that we have been pretty happy with. In addition to being run about 10 hours a day for the 5 days we were without power in Dec 2004 and for shorter periods several times (including use as portable 110VAC for power tools around the farm), my unofficial brother-in-law has borrowed it a few times to provide remote electrical power for his business (custom awning manufacture & installation). We got it at TSC. The one time we thought it was broke, it wasn't (free lesson on oil level safety switch).

One thing I noticed when we were generator shopping - there was nearly a 3:1 difference in price for different generators from different places with the same capacity. IMHO this is another reason deciding which generator to purchase should be a considered decision, rather than an last minute foray, if possible. Whether you want to go cheap or go name brand, the first place you look at may not have what you want at the best price.

Thanks for posting the current YP report, Bruce. One of the things us PBR-ers need to develop is a rule of thumb for the fish biomass capacity of the Condello Po'Boy RAS per gallon. Of course, individual mileage may vary.

Bill Cody wouldn't have any trouble calculating how much biomass I may have here. Assume an average size of 4.8 inches (there are LOTS of 4.25's), with a Wr of around 100 he might know what my weight for 150 gallons is. I get the sense by the general water quality that I'm nowhere near carrying capacity. Of course, you know me. I might just push it to the brink.

When you can watch the algae bloom and crash without timelapse photography, it's time to either change the water or lay off the gas!

Bruce :

What is the plan? Are the larger fish going in one of the ponds and with what purpose? It should be time for them to be pond acclimated soon as water temps start to rise.

Theo , I agree and think Bruce has that info and can provide it from his hatchery book or from memory.

My goal is to eventually integrate the 30-40 best feed trained females into the horizontal aeration pond to grow to Cecilesque type proportions.

The rest will be used to form an army of yellow perch druids to fight off the eventual apocolyptic advances of my redears.

I see cannibals vs crushers. :p When will the best group be decided and go into the pond? I would think soon. More than 40 can go in there --? Will you keep the rest in the RAS to grow more and then add to the other pond ?

Ewest, he is not in Mississippi or Texas; it still MAY get a little nippy for the next few weeks. We are all anxious to see the battle of the perches. I still want some of the male RES/female YP F1's.

BM :

YP are a simi-cold water fish unlike RES. YP can thrive and eat and etc. in winter water. They would have the advantage over the RES for a lot of the year in Bruce's ponds. YP have been found to be seriously munching on small BG all winter in the north waters. They can handle Bruce's water easily if acclimated correctly and keep right on growing. In fact it is the waters warm status in small ponds in summer that would be the bigger problem. Then the BG and RES would have the advantage.

That cross would be scary with red teeth and red pharyngeal crushers and yellow eyes and the ability to grow year round in hot or cold water --- hhmmm -- a real pond terror. And remember that some of the YP were subject to being boiled alive and thus have a real mean streak to them.

I am fearing for Bruce's safety.

I believe Bruce is abusing his Yellow Perch and Redear Sunfish by using harsh language and making funny faces during feeding time; the fish then associate the pleasures of eating with the distinct displeasures of verbal abuse and sardonic imagery.

I believe this is making his fish take pleasure in destructive activities.

The end result is a common theme in western history where the keeper (Bruce) becomes the victim.

I've seen that movie too.

Yes, they have been thru the wringer alright. Scalding water, low O2, too much then too little light, verbal and visual abuse. They will be a rowdy crowd, but, remember, it's not their fault; they are a product of their environment.

Ewest, I gotcha. They were put in 55-60 degree water to take to artificial feeding, now some are big enough to start scarfing on live prey. But aren't they going in with adult male RES?
Maybe there is smaller forage, or will they continue to eat the pellets now even in colder water? Don't know much about YP, except that even when small they are scrappy and taste really good.

You're right, Burgermeister.

They are going in with adult male RES and adult male BG. Since there should be no reproduction, I expect a pretty significant community of large to XL size invertebrates. I suspect that some of these fish will retain their preference for artificial feed and others will turn to the big dragonfly nymphs that seem to pop up in the ponds with no YOY fish.

Ideally these yellow perch that are grown in the rubbermaid tank will always be able to fall back on artificial feed when necessary. The invertebrates will be available cyclically, and when they aren't I'd like to keep the growth rates to a maximum.

I know this sounds like a ridiculous amount of work for a .15 acre pond, but when you're trying to create the ultimate fishing hole for your dad, you'll try some creative things.

Bruce :

Great idea and report. You could always add a few FH's to help them all along with no adverse effect or some worms and mix in some high % floating and sinking foods and all will live happily ever after.

I thought about the fatheads too, but if you could see my other ponds you'd realize how much the bluegill are benefiting from the population of oversized invertebrates. If I added FH, then my invertebrate population would crash, and my adult panfish would have to chase down FH, which swim a lot faster than dragonfly nymphs. Keep in mind that I don't have any YOY YP, BG or RES to put pressure on YOY fatheads. I think I might get overrun, and have no recourse other than to drain and rotenone. I'm not positive about this scenario, but it's just plausible enough to scare me.

Dr Bruce, I extrapolated sizes and weights of YP to come up with somewhere close to 9.36g/L (1.246oz/gallon, 35.36grams/gallon). Currently you have about 187 oz (5305g)of YP in the 150 gallons. Cecil may be able to provide some "normal" (light, medium, & high) RAS carrying capacities. If not I can look them up.

That's just great!

Where else but Pond Boss could you ask a question like that and get such an awesome answer?

Bruce :

A few fatheads as in 15-20 at a time will not last long in a pond full of large BG , RES and YP. Nor will they eat much before they are consumed esp. if you add them in fall or winter. That is why I said a few , as in supp. if you need to. If you are concerned and need an extra food source then do what a friend of mine does and cut off the tail of the FH with clippers and then put them in. Then they are quickly eaten or die.

ewest,

This is a horrifyingly simple way to move protein to my "hopefully someday to be giant" perch.

One interesting thing that I learned about Bob Lusk while he was here is that if he agrees with you he'll give you a big smile and confirmation of your deep and undeniable wisdom. But if he doesn't agree with you he will produce a wry smile and say something to the effect of "I'm not entirely sure of that", then he'll make you think it through by posing a question or alternative. An example would be as follows:

Bruce: "Bob, I'm looking forward to moving these biggest perch into my new pond, since they'll be all females".

Bob: "I'm not entirely sure about that. If you don't see egg formation, could it be that a couple of your biggest perch in the tank are just the most agressive"?

Bruce: "Ulp"

Bruce :

They are forage -- as in they get eaten .To me it is no different than catching a fish and cleaning it and cooking it or sacrificing some for info purposes.

I agree with you on Bob's methods from my 2 meetings ,other conservations and his writings. I find it much like Bill C.'s admonition to us all -- "that it all depends".

I will look for some info on YP sex iding at the pre-adult stage if you like. Not sure the connection , if any , with the above post on supp. FH for YP. Let me know what I am missing.

Man your temps. have really dropped. May be to cold for a while to move the YP anyway. No need to subject them to the wild up and downs -- to much added stress for no reason.

Oh, yeah! I'm going to do it. It beats the heck out of dropping crawlers into the abyss. At least these minnows will churn until they become snacks. I meant horrifying as in "evil redear, molar crusher bluegill, cannibal yellow perch, dismembered fathead come back to haunt ya" kind of horrifying. :p

You aren't missing a thing. Sometimes when I write I can be so lacking in focus that others think they're missing something--but they really aren't. I must talk that way too, because my wife always looks at me like she's missing something. :p

I get it now. I think feeding worms would be great as you could watch them pull the worms apart as they all try to grab one at the same time. My BG/RES did that well. I don't know if worms have enough lipids though . I will look for the info.

I like the minnow idea so much because during the summer my ponds have a growth along the bottom of sago pondweed which, in the presence of a minor algae bloom may mean that my expensive piece of protein (wormie) may fall unnoticed to the bottom and never be used. The minnows however should stay suspended long enough for my rubbermaid perch to get a bead on 'em. I'd think that if you really want a perch to grow to a mammoth that he would have to have more than just pellets. Just a pet theory of mine that I've developed studying bluegills. Forage diversity may be as important as forage quantity.

Bruce, I've always thought that natural food is important to the health and growth of a fish. High protien pellet fed bass seem to have a head that is disproportionate to their body. I believe it was you that once posted something about unhealthy looking livers in high protien fed bluegills. That would seem to indicate a shortened life span and growth potential.

I once, several years ago, posted a question about how often to feed catfish. Lusk responded, I believe, that you should pellet feed no more than 5 days per week. Something about overall health and I have no idea where that post is. As usual, I have imperfect memory and could be wrong.

The monster bass in California lakes do nicely on a diet of trout. So far, nobody has been able to replicate their growth with pellets, even as a subsidy. From a conversion rate standpoint, high protien pellets work but I wonder if they give the fish the opportunity to really live long enough to become truly mammoth.

Of course, along comes Cecil with his record size perch and trout. I don't know the difference in his fish and sunfish but he ought to patent, copyright and license his methods. It ain't luck in his case.

Dave,

Actually me growing some big trout and some big perch is part luck and not really unique. I get them big primarily by feeding them everything they want.

I'm starting to think some of the biggest perch are feeding on pellets with the bass even though I don't see them doing so. Why? Because I have recently mounted a few of the perch and noticed considerable fatty deposits in them along with the eggs when I skinned them out. That tells me they are probably feeding on the pellets as I don't see this in fish that are feeding on natural feed.

So my mammoth perch may have gotten that way by feeding almost exclusively on the pellets. If that is the case my putting big perch in a pond by themselved may produce some really big ones.

On the other hand I can concur on your thoughts about the bass. Up until this point I'm not convinced my bass will make it up to 6 lbs. or beyond. I've had them long enough to do so, and the biggest has been a fat pig of only 19 inches and 5 lbs. 14 oz.

So what's the real scoop, Cecil? If my Rubbermaid perch go into my recreation pond this spring, would you feed them floating, sinking, or slow sinking pellets? They are going to be in with only bluegill and redears. No grass carp or largemouth to intimidate them!

...and what % protein?

Floating definitely. Too easy to waste sinking feed and have it cause algae problems etc on the bottom.

However you may want to consider feeding them in a large floating cage to keep them on feed exclusively a little longer. Just a thought. What do you think Bill? (Bill Cody)

YP links/data :

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/yellowperch.html

http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/oh/perchfd.pdf

http://southcenters.osu.edu/aqua/fact/perchspawn.pdf

Cecil, to my mind, doing something with consistency takes much more than luck. I think we make our own luck. I consider your continued success as being pretty unique in any field. Others may be able to match your success, but I don't get the impression that you have the unlimited budget and resources that some of them enjoy.

What is the condition of the guts and associated internals of your pellet fed bass when you disassemble them? I ask because, due to drought, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have the opportunity to start over on at least one of my one acre water holes. I'm past thinking of it as a tragedy and getting excited about the opportunity to try something different.

Bruce, the lakes up here that grow the largest perch by far are loaded with scuds (Gammarus Lacustris). I believe they are found in your area as well. Most all large YP I catch are loaded with them. Fisherman that know, collect them for bait.

Also regarding tranporting YP in cold water, I have brought them home from ice-fishing frozen, I mean like a brick,5-6 hours later put them in the sink with water and they wake up and swim around. The kids take great pleasure in their newly thawed pets, although the wife is less than impressed :rolleyes: I'm not suggesting you transport your perch in popsicle form, just a side note.

Those YP are somthing else as they can survive hot tub boiling and popsicle-ization and still keep on ticking. Watch out BG and RES the popsicle perch are on the way.

Good study on what YP eat in yr. 0/1 and beyond.

Age-0 and Age-1 Yellow Perch Diet in Southeastern Lake Michigan

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2000/20000006.pdf


Large macroinvertebrates were the main prey
eaten by age-0 yellow perch in October 1998 and
by age-1 yellow perch in June 1999. At the 15-m
site off Muskegon in October 1998, Gammarus spp.
and Isopoda were found in nearly 71% of the age-0
yellow perch, and accounted for 71 and 26%, respectively,
of the diet by weight (Table 1). The following
spring (June 1999) at 15-m off Muskegon,
Gammarus spp. and Isopoda were only a small part
of the age-1 yellow perch diet, and Chironomidae
and Mysis relicta were mainly eaten. At the 25- to
35-m site in October 1998, age-0 yellow perch fed
mainly on M. relicta, which occurred in 100 and
80% of the fish containing food off Muskegon and
St. Joseph, respectively, and accounted for almost
all of the diet by weight at both sites (> 96%)
The high occurrence of Gammarus spp. and
Isopoda in yellow perch diets suggests ongoing
changes in the nearshore benthic community are occurring.
Neither have been reported as an important
prey item for age-0 or older yellow perch in southeastern
Lake Michigan throughout the year (Wells
1980, Crowder et al. 1981, Baker et al. 1992).
Gammarus spp. densities in spring 1999 at an 18-m
site off St. Joseph were 42/m2 (T. Nalepa, unpublished
data) and higher compared to historical densities
throughout southeast Lake Michigan (Nalepa
and Quigley 1980, Winnell 1984, Nalepa 1989).

Wood, Thanks for that bit of information. Do you have any idea what type of vegetation is prevalent where the scuds are abundant? If you do not know would you please make it a point this summer to take some photos for me of the weed types where a lot of the scuds are living? I have been trying to get scuds established without much luck. I think the type of submerged vegetation is key for their success.

Bill, Have you been transplanting scuds from nearby waters? I've thought about doing the same thing for my perch. FWIW, the biggest wild perch I've ever caught came from natural Nebraska lakes that were absolutely littered with scuds. I'd like to see them in my perch pond. Seems like it would be a good primary consumer to move biomass up to predators. Ideal in the respect that they will eat decaying plant and animal matter, and grow large enough to be of interest to adult perch. Also it seems likely their escape mechanism isn't as good as FHM.

Is a scud a fish or an insect?

Neither - it is an amphipod - Order Amphipoda. Also see DD1's comment below.

Bruce, I do not have a local source for them. If I had a local source, I would know what type of weeds were present where the scuds were thriving. I have been buying mine from Wildlife Nurseries Inc, but this year I may get some from Colorado Fisheries. I was trying to establish them in my perch-SMB pond. I got freshwater shrimp to thrive I figured I could get scuds to survive, but not much succes after three tries. I have drained that pond and will convert it to a minnow/shiner and invertebrate pond for stocking supplies. I would like to know the best vegetation for the sucds. Several species are common but the more common and more obvious ones are Gammarus lacustris (22mm) and G. fasciatus (14mm). Crangonyx is another common genus in the US. Hyalella azteca (4-8mm) is widely distributed and real common but not real obvious to the untrained observer.

I think the perch that are "too lazy", will stay eating pellets on a regular basis. I think some swithch back and forth between pellets and natural food based on what is currrently abundant. "Rogue" pellet raised yellow perch revert to eating natural food items. When natual foods are plentiful I think a large percentage of pellet trained fish will go off pellets - these I call rogues. I currently think the more natural foods that are present in a pond the greater the percentage of perch will quite eating pellets and vice versa.

I am still not sure what causes a non-pellet trained and recruited fish to resort to eating pellets on their own. Do some fish have "welfare mentality"?.

Sunil, wasn't a scud a guided missle that the Iraquis used in the first Gulf War?

Dave, that's what I thought which is why I was wondering why Yellow Perch would eat 'em???!!?

Bill, I did a search for amphipods and saw some photos.

Few questions, though: What is the average size of a amphipod common to Ohio/PA? And, besides inspecting the guts of a fish, how can you tell if you have them in a pond?

To find out what is living in your pond you need to do some net sweeps. I may write a article about that in PB magazine when I get extra time. Sizes are in my post above. Most common ones will depend on your location and pond type. Without very many weeds or algae don't expect to find many. Most common one in western PA will probably be Hyalella azteca. Locations up near Lake Erie and Ontario could have G. fasciatus. I found G.fasciatus living among filamentous algae and overhanging grass in a local small ditch 1ft-3ft wide.

Bill :

I really hope you do an article on seine surveys, how to do them , what info they provide and how to use it in pond mgt. I do them several times a year and I know Theo does. I think others do but there is very little discussion on the forum about it. It seems like a lot of people should be using the tool but that few are based on the number of "how can I tell what is in my pond" or "how do I know how the fish in my pond are doing" questions.

Folks this is a very good tool to use in pond mgt. , is fun , not that hard to do and the cost is low (most nets are cheap).

Thanks Bill. I see the sizes you had already listed; I had just overlooked them the first read through.

One "Get to Know Your Pond's Invertebrates" article per issue, introducing us to a different food (or pest) species, would not be too much.

In reference to Ewest's post (3rd one up) net sweeps are different than seine survey's. Net sweeps are used to collect and sample invertebrates whereas seine surveys are used to sample fish populations. I think Dr Dave and maybe? me as co-author will in the future put together some articles for PBoss about seine surveys and other ways to sample fish in ponds. There are numerous "to do" topics for up coming PBoss articles. I consider Dr Dave as our resident expert of fisheries methods since he co-edited the current standard textbook on Fisheries Techniques/Methods. I plan and hope to build a homemade fish sampling net/trap this spring and if it works I will write about it in Pond Boss mag. I have lots of projects to do but not enough time to do them. I will have to set priorities. Taking care of two ponds plus fish cages keeps me busy in my spare time. If I wasn't addicted to this forum I would get a lot more things done.

Back to the topic of Bruce's rubbermaid Yperch and in reference to Bruce's Feb 18 11:49PM and Cecil's next response Feb 19 12:05AM posts:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
So what's the real scoop, Cecil? If my Rubbermaid perch go into my recreation pond this spring, would you feed them floating, sinking, or slow sinking pellets? They are going to be in with only bluegill and redears. No grass carp or largemouth to intimidate them!

...and what % protein?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cecil Said:
Floating definitely. Too easy to waste sinking feed and have it cause algae problems etc on the bottom.

However you may want to consider feeding them in a large floating cage to keep them on feed exclusively a little longer. Just a thought. What do you think Bill? (Bill Cody)

_________________________________________________

Bruce here are some of my thoughts about your rubbermaid YP.
1. Cecil and I have not had real good success with gettng RAS fish (tank raised) to immediately and aggressively accept pellets once they have been released into the open pond enviornment. These Perch and bgill will continue to eat pellets but aggressiveness seems to be reduced, sometimes dramatically depending on ???. Currently I am not sure of the reasons why, but I have a couple theories; light intensity-day length adjustment, confinement vs open expansive mentality, crowding-density factors, plus other unknowns. Cecil's suggestion of putting them in a cage first to acclimate them before release into the pond is what I also suggest. Cage would allow behavioral and adaptational adjustments before release. If you do not have a cage, then just release them into the pond and then document the results. Companion and competitive bgill & RES in the pond might instill normal feeding behavior.?? Example. I have a neighbor who bought two batches of RAS YP (6"-8") in spring of 2004 & 2005. These YP still do not feed normally compared to those where another owner bought pond raised females (YP) and they began feeding normally within 1 wk. Both groups seem to be growing OK, but the RAS fish seem to be somewhat lagging in growth. I will keep an eye on both groups. Owners were planning on sampling/harvest of both of these YP populations by ice fishing but not much ice this winter.

2. I also would use floating feed primarily to monitor the consumption. I do use soft sinking feed and especially when water temps are below 55F and fish are hesitant to feed at the surface. Example. Last week when water (39F) was open and the day temp was nice, I fed soften pellets to perch who were active, however I did not see any of the male bgill who are dominant feeders when water temps are above 54F.

3. For YP if I had choices, I would use 42%-45% protein and 10% fat or better yet 8% fat content. However you could have a hard time finding that type of feed.

4. Ohio Center for Aquaculture Development is currently working on a genetic improvement program funded by soft money for YP similar to what you are doing for bgill. Eight strains of YP were obtained from different states and genotyped. Best performing starins were identifed. Generation F1 improved broodfish will be availble for producers 2006-2007. 2nd generation broodstock has been selected. Improved YP are expecteed to increase production in market sized fish by 35%-50%. (They are also are working on development of genetically male bgills using 3 separate strains.)

That's incredibly fascinating. It looks like my project will be unique. Could I not stock 25 perch directly and place 25 in a cage of similar sizes? I could document differences in growth through one growing season.

Bruce - yes that is an OK idea. Keep the 25 in the cage until you are satisfied they are eating well. Note if their feeding bahavior changes between the indoor tank and the outdoor location; it should if they behave like Cecil's and my perch.

Bruce by now you should have a ton of info on food and feeding (all types and kinds) of YP in RAS and small ponds , here or by email. Included is all female population info .

ewest: The information you've sent me will be very helpful in keeping my Rubbermaid Po'Boy RAS perch alive, helping me ID by sex at stocking time, and growing the biggest possible perch in the horizontal aeration pond.

Thank you very, very much for all of the valuable help. I've already read the studies you sent me twice.

Bill, I collect them in winter by drilling holes with the power auger in weed beds. When you pull the rotating auger out of the hole it floods the ice with thousands of them. I kept a number of them alive in a cooler for a few months, used an aquarium pump and airstone. I read somewhere that they require water with high calcium content to assist in molting and re-growth of shell.

I have an old fishless dugout on the farm I am living at now that is used for watering buffalo, it is loaded with scuds. I will drill some holes and pull up some vegetation, probably with scuds attached and post the photos.

We need a 'sponge' gremlin. This is good stuff.

Thanks to Theo, I've been forced to expand the Cecil Envy project! His threat to feed train redear sunfish has forced me into accelerating my efforts, and adding an additional tank in which to place redear sunfish. I'll be using the "Lusk method" of training redears by starting with real invertebrates, gradually adding in pellet material, and ultimately having a group of savage RES to add to the horizontal aeration pond. Here's the pictures.











Notice the use of the rafters to increase the temperature of the tanks to maximize RES growth this summer.

Now I just need some RES.

Looks like a "double, double, toil and trouble, fire burn , cauldron bubble " witches brew to me. :p

Go RES go !!!

Bruce what is the maximum size of pellets that the small hanging feeder you have will dispense?

I can go all the way up to 7.5 mm because the base is adjustable. There are three screws that are loosened to increase the gap between the base and the clear acrylic cylinder that makes up the sides of the feeder.

Note the concrete blocks underneath the tubs, added to save Bruce's back while cleaning them.

Somewhere in Lincoln, there's a car setting on the ground.

Bill, here it is.

Luckily spring is almost here or I would be doing the same thing out in my shop. And if I did that I may have to move to my shop, because the wife wouldn't tolerate it. Of course, if I blamed it on Bruce she may be OK with it.

Last night I checked my Po'Boy RAS. My yellow perch are getting considerably bigger in overall mass. You can't really see it in length increase as much as you can overall body condition. I drained and cleaned the tank and made the following observations.

1. 7 perch have gotten way, way bigger than the others. These fish are presumably all females, but I'm not willing to risk the health of my pond by stocking them just yet. They are 6-7 inches and do not show evidence of egg production. Great body condition with a big ol' hump on their backs.

2. Vast majority of fish still range from 4-5 inches. I removed a total of 60 of these fish and will give them away. They are feed trained, and in wonderful condition, but I don't want to risk the whole system by keeping them.

3. I had increased water flow, and my overflow system wasn't quite keeping up, so the water was splashing over the side. One perch had escaped and was lying on the floor drain, but was still alive and I put him in with the perch I removed. The biggest perch look like they'd eat minnows in a second if I chose to put a couple of them in. I'm a little hesitant because of the fact that I've been disease free for the entire winter. Maybe I could buy some fatheads and quarantine them for a couple of weeks.

This should leave me with 135 YP in the tank.

Bruce I think it is best to keep the perch on "fast food" until you pond stock them. Minimize your risk.

Bruce :

That RAS must be getting crowded. What about a temporary use of the other RAS and comparison. If you put one RAS in the light lower the water temp and then raise the water temp. you may get eggs. What about a bath in a 5 gal bucket ( with water treatment to kill bugs/fungus) for the FH then feed them to the hoard in the second RAS. They could probably use some fish oil lipids and might catch up in size. No risk to the first group.

Sounds like the YP RAS is working great.

Thanks for the update Bruce. It's great to be able to follow your progress!

Is that really an RAS? Are you using any biological filtration? If not it sounds more like a flow through to me.

You're exactly right, Cecil. Not a true RAS. I priced those at 3-4 thousand dollars. It's a Po'Boy because It only cost me a couple hundred bucks and I "borrow" the water that was going into one of the other ponds anyway.

Cecil, Lusk has also got me interested in adding an RAS feature to the tank. He's going to try to let me know how to recirc some of the water, filtering it along the way, and use the filter to grow snails. That way I could move the snails into the redear sunfish tank that I'm starting for a snack/treat.

Ultimately, I'm just hoping to help my little ponds out by being able to add some primo feed-trained individuals into the system, and give me an option for overwintering redears and oversummering yellow perch. I have had the added benefit of giving my girls something fun to watch, which may be the best bonus of all!

I have the afternoon free today if I can get out in the blizzard. Does anyone have any ideas on a way to use an aquarium pump to lift and filter some water? Coffee filters perhaps? I want something that I can throw away as opposed to cleaning. Cleaning things stinks.

If you're going to do a gravity drop through the filter from a low energy pump like an aquarium type, coffee filters might just be the thing. I would suggest the culligan, et al. type cylindrical domestic water supply filters, but I think that would require a fair amount of pressure - maybe so much that the inlet would suck fish as well as dirty water.

I foresee an aquarium filter pump, dumping water into a used Mr. Coffee (each $5 at a yard sale) that not only filters but heats the water to the optimum temp as well.

So how many GPM might go through a coffee filter with gravity instead of pressure? All of the solid waste that accumulates in my tank from the yellow perch sits in one particular area, so I could put the pump inlet in that spot. I priced little home waterfall pumps at about 30 dollars that did about 2 gpm. If that falls on a coffee filter it will just spill up and over the top, right?

Bruce, how about a fiberglass filter like is used on a central heating unit? I buy them for about a buck and change them out every month.

Tell me more. How could it be used? Are we talkin' about a rectangular shaped filter?

If I ever drank coffee (instead of DMD) I might have an idea of how fast a coffeemaker dumps a specified amount of water through a filter. Let's see ... 2 GPM is 32 cups per minute, about a cup every 2 seconds - that seems like a lot for a coffee filter to handle, especially after some amount of clogging has occurred.

The A/c filter is not a bad idea! But I would use the poly material instead of fiberglass. It can be bought in rolls 24" to 72" wide & 50 to 100 ft long. You could cut it fold it stack it any way you want.
I purchase it for apx. $30 for a 24" X 100ft roll.

I'm searching for a source on line. Here's one for aquariums: http://www.polyflopondfilters.com/

Here's another but still not what I was refering to: http://www.pondliner.com/PolyFlo.htm

This is it but I don't see pricing: http://www.aero-flo.com/tackified.html

Yeah, I use the cheap ones that are rectangular. 18 x 24, but they come in different sizes. The ones I use have cardboard sides but they make some with aluminum. I agree with Ric on the poly. The cheap ones are fiberglass. They are sold at hardware stores or Home Depot or Lowes. Go wander around and ask questions. They aren't all that efficient at stopping all dust so you might want to look at them and experiment a little.

Now we're cookin'. Ideally I'd want mechanical filtration instead of biological filtration. I'd just like to get the solid waste out of the tank and some of the iron as well. I'd want it to be cheap enough to just throw away.

I take a solemn vow right now to not create additional work for myself!! I'd just like to take the filter media out and chuck it, then fold up some more and put it back in.

Could the filter material be placed in a bucket overhanging the tank and let the water trickle through? Don't forget that this will help oxygenate the water AND give me some backup aeration if my aerator fails while I'm away.

You guys are gonna be SO, SO JEALOUS when I'm putting 8 inch, feed-trained age-1 bluegill and chunky 10 inch yellow perch into my pond. :p :p :p Maybe each fall I'd seine my smaller pond and collect some redears and feed them crawlers all winter.

They should have something like Ric is talking about. I've never seen anything that small in the preformed ones. If you buy a 50 ft. roll, you should be set.

Where at?...and could it be rolled up in a two or three gallon bucket with holes drilled in the sides of the bucket?

Bruce, in my tank I have a small pump that pumps the water up and drops it into a small basket full of quilt packing. I bought the quilt packing (which is synthetic cotton just like the aquarium stuff) from Walmart years ago. It came in this big box that I believe was ten pounds for like nine dollars. I just pull off the size I want and throw it away when it's dirty. The only thing I don't like is the small amount of splashing.

I buy it from local HVAC wholesale stores. United Refrigeration is normaly the one I use & they are nation wide. As Dave mentioned I'd think the Home Improvement stors would carry it.

It can be rolled to fit in a bucket. When used as an air filter it has to have a frame to support it since it's very pliable.

I would think cutting large holes in the bottom of the bucket would be best & letting the water filter all the way down through the media.

Bruce, I just checked prices, all they had in stock was 25" wide X 90ft long roll for $60.00. I would think that's more than you need but if you can't find any I'd be glad to pick some up & ship it to you. I Should be able to order a shorter roll.

I'll start looking. Thanks, Ric! That's very thoughtful of you to offer to do that.

Here's the latest. Went to the farm this morning with the intent of changing the feed of the yellow perch. I special ordered some floating Aquamax 400 (smaller size) with 45% protein to mix in with the sinking Ziegler feed. Every time I go to check on the tank, I drain the check valve and some cruddy pellets shoot out. I had observed that when I feed the perch, the Ziegler feed sinks slowly, and if they are hungry they will hit the Ziegler on the way down, but really aren't interested in it once it hits the bottom. The same holds true for hand feeding crawlers--if they see it on the way down they'll nail it, but once it hits the bottom it may be ignored for large periods of time. I'd like to get the fish entirely on floating for the following reasons.

1. Hopefully the food stays available for a longer time so that it all gets utilized.

2. Faster growth because of the previous.

3. More "esthetics" in watching the pellets eaten at the surface after I stock in my pond, so I hope they're trained on the floating.

4. Better able to determine correct feeding rates in the pond because I'll be able to see if all the food is eaten. If they're trained on a slow sink, then I may not know when in the fall to discontinue or decrease feed rates.

I also took out ten more perch to get the number down to 125 or so. These fish went in a 20 gallon tub with an aquarium aerator.

I also took Bill Cody's advice and resisted the urge to put in minnows, and I have yet to create the filtration system. If I'm feeding at a higher rate this summer I think I'll definitely need one.

Bruce - Your RAS perch may not readily accept surface pellets until the water temperature is above 50F. My pond perch will eagerly accept softened & rolled sinking pellets at temps below 48F. Between 47F and 50F they start gradually coming to the surface for floating food. Above 55F there is very little hesitation to come to the surface for floating food. I am interested to see how your perch behave toward adapting to surface feeding.

Would you believe that in the very, very coldest part of our winter I never measured my water temperature at under 51 degrees. It's currently 54. I'll let you know immediately what the reaction is.

At 54F the perch should be willing to feed at the surface. If they are not surface feeding, maybe try reducing the light intensity to almost dusk conditions. Also try softening the food and roll a few into small pea sized pieces and drop them into the tank as you stand back a little distance from the tank. Feeding fish will soon move higher in the water column to get food due to competition. I will send you the softening technique.

This evening, I managed to get perch and bgill to feed sparingly at the surface in water temps of 46F. Prespawn perch seem to be real hungry.

Thank you very much. I am opening and examining the attachment now.

I checked the tank yesterday, and let's just say "I wasn't thrilled". There were hundreds of floating and semi-floating pellets churning about the tank. It seems that my setting on the feeder, which had to be altered because of the slightly bigger pellets, was set incorrectly.

I cleaned the tank, reset the feeder, now I have to ascertain whether it's the fact they don't want the pellets, or that they were being vastly overfed. I reduced the setting by probably 60%. I'll keep reducing it until no pellets are present upon reinspection. I'm disappointed that I can't stock the bigger perch yet. The recreational pond is ready for them and is showing DO levels of over 10 ppm. Unfortunately, the 6-7 inch perch aren't carrying eggs evidently, so I can't really risk the stocking yet. I hope I don't have to wait another year! It's a miracle that I haven't been killing them. Some of the posts in other threads about big yellow perch are killing me. I want my Dad to be able to land some big ones by next fall.

I took four more YP out and placed them in the holding tank. Now I have 121 left.

It's nice to see an absentee landlord who cleans up messes made while he's away! :p

I'm glad the YP are all OK, Bruce - I got a little worried after reading the first couple of sentences.

Bruce,

There are seven (7) methods that can be used to sex a BG…….. as per March Pond Boss article.

And..... the only way to effectively sex a YP is by egg laden females?? Gotta be another way (cheap)?

To catch us up on your project once again; you are stocking YP females and male BG into your 1.25 ac. pond, correct?

Thanks,

Ed

Ed,

The end result of the perch growout tank is to provide approximately 50 females for the .15 acre pond on the north side of my property. I'm hoping that by injecting well water parallel to the surface that I will get an aerating/cooling/circulating effect necessary to keep the YP from croaking in the hot Nebraska summer.

Bruce :

Put on your traveling shoes or at least see if you can get the mateerial. You might even talk Bill or CB1 into going.

http://southcenters.osu.edu/aqua/perchschool06.htm

Announcing Perch School 2006 at OSU South Centers - Piketon
This course is sponsored in part by Ohio State Unversity



Saturday, April 8th, 2006, the aquaculture staff members at OSU Piketon – South Centers will hold a one-day Perch School training course. The course will focus on teaching production techniques used in yellow perch (Perca flavescens) brood stock conditioning, spawning, egg incubation, fry stocking and fertilization regimes for fry ponds, and feed training techniques. The full day will be spent in a combination of class-room style presentations in the morning, with several hands-on breakout sessions for participants in the afternoon. The course is geared towards those who currently have aquaculture experience and are looking to improve their current yellow perch production practices, as well as any individuals who have interest in aquaculture and want to learn more about these aquaculture techniques for egg and fry fish production.





Mr. Phil Kemp, Aqion-USA Sales Representative will be available to talk with participants. Aqion supplies fish feed ingredients, feed attractants, and specialty feeds (freeze-dried natural foods, spirulina, etc) to worldwide aquaculture markets.



1:00 – 5:00 pm Hands-on Sessions


- Sex determination, hormone calculation and injection.


- Registration by phone: Call Mrs. Charity Crabtree at OSU South Centers- Piketon. Phone numbers are (740) 289-2071, ext. 110, or 1-800-297-2072 (Ohio only). Questions about course content can be directed to Mr. Geoff Wallat, 740-289-2071, ext. 146.

ewest,

It says the deadline was the 20th.

You may find this hard to believe, but perch school came to Nebraska first. Trust me, nothing comes to Nebraska first. We had the Michigan people here for an all day perch seminar last winter. I was one of thirty or so in attendance.

That's all well and good, Bruce, but what can you use now as an excuse to go to lovely Pike County, Ohio? :rolleyes:

ealong59 I have never seen a seminar that would not let you register late or at least sell you the material. Just trying to get all you guys together for some fun.

Ewest, you beat all I've ever seen. Do you have a secret agency that emails you links about anything 'fishy'? Truly amazing!

Bruce, I just talked to Dave. I think you are going to have 50 females as quickly as you want them.

Ohhhhh my goodness what will happen to the RAS cannibal YP - are they doomed ? Will they take over the prospective RES location? Or Or Or heaven forbid will they go back in the hot tub.

The end game is here.

This weekend I decided to look at some of the fatter perch and discovered that the biggest ones, which were 7-7.75 inches were with eggs. They had really taken off the last few weeks as the water temperature came up into the low 60's. Here I thought they were fat because those were the ones eating all the pellets. Thirty fish with eggs, and another two bigger ones that were milting.

My goal achieved, I took the females and stocked them--their tails clipped so I can tell them from some females from a source about an hour from here. I have some pictures that I look forward to sharing. The males were fileted and eaten. This left 89 fish. 74 of these were placed in a holding tank for my partner, or anyone for that matter, to claim, maybe in exchange for two cases of Diet Mountain Dew. Beautiful feed trained yellow perch, of indeterminate sex waiting for a home. Probably almost all female, but risky if you were trying to have an all female pond.

The remaining 15 fish were left in the tank, aerator on, water inflow decreased to a tiny trickle. I disconnected the feeder and will hand feed these perch when I'm at the farm and see what happens. I want the water to warm significantly, hence the decreased water flow, so as to evaluate the upper limits of survival and growth. These fish are expendable, but I'd like to see them live. They were the fifteen biggest ones that I couldn't tell their sex, ranging from 5-8 inches. It was phenomenal how fast they grew once the water temp jumped up and the solar heating began to permeate the room due to the longer days.

I've really appreciated all the help from everyone, but now Cecil Envy is Cecil Endy.

If anyone is interested I'll start another thread to document the trevails of these fifteen perch, and my transition to bluegill and redears for next winter.

Bruce

Bruce, it has been a remarkable journey, I'm sure for you and for we that take pride in that those little eggs are partially ours. Dont dare leave us hanging now. Continue the updates. Thanks for all the detailed progress of your po boys RAS experiment. It was a huge success.

Please keep us posted as our little ones go off to the pond (they still have a story to tell). Start a new thread on the RES/BG and continue here on the fab. 15.

Lovey: I don't know how we're going to explain to our friends that we
spent several years with fish who aren't even in the social
register.

So far my yellow perch that have been released in the horizontal aeration pond (Coulee), have been thriving. They voraciously consume pellets and some are as big as 8.5 inches.

My water temperatures are 71.5 F. and rising. I'm adding 16 gpm of well water to buffer, but I know at some point I'm going to have to crank the well up to keep the perch from dying.

Does anyone know at what point a yellow perch starts to stress, and then die, as far as water temps are concerned??

Cecil??? Hint, hint....

See http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/as-495.htm

Another study showed growth to 25C or 77F. One source showed upper range 30C or 86F. One study showed the 2 common methods of measuring energetics in YP showed skewed results (aka something going on wrt growth and energy use) starting at 22C.

I think you have this study.

Field Test of Two Energetic Models for Yellow Perch

Any indication of temp sensitivity differences with different sized YP, like large HSB stressing in warm water more than small ones?

Just a little bump to get closer to 300 posts.
Bruce, how dare you put your dirty fingers in our little YP's mouth!

Just for you Bruce - go to page 3 and top of 4 for info - can't copy to here it is encrypted.

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/ncrac/fprojects/proout/Grant2/PP1/YPpro.pdf

So if I understand this information correctly, then my YP could die somewhere in the mid-80's, but if they're like Cecil's trout, they could stress from the lack of oxygen contained within low 80's water. Great information.

I watched the YP feed agressively just 45 minutes ago. It was a sight to see! They're even tail-slappin' now that the water is warmer.

By the way--I am absolutely KICKING myself for not bringing my camera last night. I caught an eleven-inch bluegill that I would have turned in for Cecil's pond record sight. UGHHHHH!! It was a nice fish too. Would have like to have it mounted, but I think it could grow for a couple more years.

Yea, speaking of Cecil's record site; where are all the entries? At least I have an excuse. Not even a golden shiner entry. Is anybody fishing?
Bruce, as George would say, "If you dont have a pic, it's just another fish story".

Bruce - Call Dave at Blue Valley, I have discussed this specific topic with him. He knows the water profile very well throughout the summer in their perch ponds. I am guessing yours is going to be more suitable for perch than theirs. If you don't have his number, call me and I will try to get it.

Bruce :

NEDOC brings up a point made in the linked article that YP have distinct populations with adapted variations. If you call the hatchery they can give you the info on your population. Very good to have and know. You can add to their info your potential YP adaptation resulting from hot tub conditioning and you may well have YP with a higher tolerance for high water temps. :p

Interestingly, these yellow perch came from a combination of two brood stocks.

I believe one was called "Great Lakes", which is a fast growing strain, and the other was "Nebraska Sandhills", which I would surmise is a little more tolerant to warm conditions.

I also may have dreamed the last bits of information, then incorporated them into my memories of actual events.

Having just read through all 304 posts I must say this is some of my favorite stuff on Pond Boss. I had asked a question about YP upper temp limits and ewest sent me to a page in the middle - I got hooked like a fat bass and had to read it all.
Bruce the video w/soundtrack is amazing - as indeed is the whole project.
I was considering stocking YP in my new pond next year but now am concerned about the water temp. Please keep us informed with detail. I am monitoring the temps in my "small pond" - 72F at the surface, 56 at max depth of 9'. No aerator, no spring, no incoming flow - excavated embankement only.
Good show.

I forgot to mention, on page 9 Shorty said:

I'm going to check out the cost of the bottom half of a concrete 2-pc septic tank, it should hold 400 to 500 gallons, the only drawback is that once it is set in place, it can't be moved easily.

[ December 14, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: SHORTY ]

If any of you ever decide to use a 1/2 septic tank or other cast concrete structure to hold water be aware that the PH will go WAY up. I had to use a septic tank (1000 gal) to hold water for our house in between well going dry and pond water - had water delivered to it. The water burned the skin in the shower! I had to drain it and paint the inside with waterproof basement cement paint (Thoroseal?) to stop the burning. I didn't measure the ph but it had to be high enough to kill fish.

Thanks for the compliments O.S.

I'll bet you can raise YP in your pond. Even if you can't it isn't terribly expensive to find out. Right now my YP are thriving in water temps that are 74.5 at the surface and 66.5 in the deepest part of the pond. Last year I left a few in one of my unaerated ponds where the water got into the mid-eighties for temperature and I didn't start losing fish until August 1. I wasn't adding any cool water, so it was the ultimate test of YP durability.

I will definitely keep you informed as to my water temperatures throughout the summer and the health of the patients.

Yellow perch are agressive pellet eaters that are fun to observe, beautiful, willing biters...and taste delicious. Definitely worth the try.

Bruce,

I have found yellow perch are very hardy fish! Testament to that is where they appear where they are not wanted they are considered a nuisance species and are almost impossible to eradicate.

From my experience the perch handle well when hauling and moving. Tough little critters! Only mortality I have experienced is female spawning mortality and that is very minimal and happens in wild populations too.

I wish my bluegills that were in the bluegill pond were not as sensitive as they are. These particular bluegills can't seem to tolerate catching or moving very well. Could just be these particular fish or their densities where their immune systems were compromised by high ammonia levels or crowding stress.


Also caught and removed a 1 lb. 1/2 oz. bluegill off of a bed in the bass pond the other day. I quickly weighed him but didn't measure him but he couldn't have been 10 inches. He was as wide as he was long. Beautiful fish. Went into the perch only pond where there are about 6 large ones also.

BTW bluegills are done! I'm just looking for a forked piece of dritwood I can put them put on to add a base with artifical vegatation etc.

Big bluegill and big yellow perch are exciting!!

Thanks, Cecil. A lot of what we do here is because of you.

Bruce - In addition to what Cecil said "Only mortality I have experienced is female spawning mortality and that is very minimal and happens in wild populations too." Occassionally in, midsummer in certain ponds stocked with perch near me, we will see some late July - August mortalities of largest perch. I am not sure yet if this is due to temperature or oxygen. I think it may be primarily due to temperature-oxygen combination as the perch seek coolest water when surface temps are in the mid to high 80's or low 90's. Not all local perch ponds experience this problem and I think the strain of perch brood stock also plays a role with this topic. Smaller perch have been reported to tolerate higher temperatures than the largest and oldest individuals.

With summertime temperatures climbing I would like to report that I still haven't had any of my Po'Boy RAS YP die yet. The water temperature in the tank finally got to 71 degrees with only 1/8 gpm. I rarely bother to clean the tank so there's tons of algae in it, but the YP continue to feed vigorously and grow. Their growth rates are considerably less than the perch that were released in the pond, but I still have good looking fish.

The predicted highs for eastern Nebraska for the next 7 days average 100 degrees, and almost as bad the predicted lows are 74 degrees. OUCH! This is the real test of the YP/BG pond.

Bruce is it about time to free those YP before they stunt ? What do you have planned for them ? It is time for them to move on so you can start a batch of mean RES. How about an overview of what's up at the Condorosa (? sp).

I believe that is classified information.

That is hotter than it is here in central Texas. You had better rent some of those huge wedding reception tents and shade your ponds. Or maybe you could get a ton of ice delivered each day.

Put an old car door in the pond and roll down the window.

Theo- I think you would need to be going 55 MPH for that to work. :rolleyes: :p

I had an amazing experience last night. Almost otherworldly.

I went to the horizontal aeration pond, which had received all of the yellow perch raised in the tanks last winter. Our water temps had fallen into the low 40's for a few day, but recently we had a warm spell, that culminated in an 83 degree day yesterday. On a whim I decided to see if the fish would take any pellets. I propped up a lawn chair on the dock and threw in some Aquamax pellets. The water has recently cleared so it has a secchi reading of two meters.

To my utter amazement, big 11 inch yellow perch started creeping out of the depths and plunking pellets. They ate so many pellets that I had to go back to the Morton building to get more! It was SOOOO cool to see the bright yellow and black perch tip up at about 40 degrees and slink up to the pellet. I watched it at least 200 times. Then a big 10.5 inch male bluegill rushed up to smash a pellet. I was beside myself with joy to see the process repeated over and over again in the middle of November. I even called my Dad and talked to him while it was going on.

I don't get enough of this kind of thing, but when it does happen it makes all of the hard work, and failures worth it.

Big smiles

Very nice!!! I just read this thread the other day from beginning to end and was both amazed and impressed with the entire process. It was kinda like a time-lapse photo for me. I have a limited knowledge of growth rates for bass, but I don't know a thing about the growth rates of perch. 11 inch fish that are barely over a year old seems to me to be outstanding growth. Is this the case?...or do perch really grow that quickly? Either way, it's got to be terribly gratifying for you. Good job indeed.

Actually these fish have now finished two full growing seasons and have been on pellets continuously. They were the cream of the crop, then selected from there. We've also got some "un-finclipped" fish in this pond that have completed their third year of growth. I'll bet the 11 inchers are more likely to be those. Regardless, I know some of the fish that were raised in the tank range from 7 inches on up to over ten. If I were to catch one of the fish I could check the caudal fin and know for sure.

Possumeater, you are welcome to come by some time this winter to see the tanks. Right now there are some awesome bluegill in them.

Bruce - Your observation about YP in cold water reinforces my earlier comment in another thread that YP are relatively quite active in cool and cold water compared to BG and bass. I have found with pellet trained YP that, if you soften & roll the food using my method and drop it into a hole cut in the ice the perch will feed basically the same way you described above only they rarely feed at the surface but they will come within 2-3 feet of the surface eating sinking pellets. I have fun doing this siting in a warm ice shanty on bla winter days.

Here are some cage reared YP from my pond that started cage culture in April at 4.5-6" and ended the season at 7.8"-10.5"; thus they are two yr old fish.

YP activity in cool water is well documented and they prey well on small BG who are cold and slow. It is still a blast to watch fish feed like that. I wonder if YP exhibit the same preparatory to winter fall feeding frenzy as do LMB and BG? Bruce did the YP seem to be feeding normally or was the level elevated?

Bill, try removing the blank space between the first and last "[IMG]" and the actual link text.

Sunil - Thanks for the help; your advice worked. I removed the photo that you had here to avoid duplication.

Oh, ok...gotcha. Still pretty cool, and I'd love to see the ponds. I don't have a pond myself....doesn't look like it's gonna happen any time in the near future either. However, ever since I've come across this site, I've been absolutely fascinated by the idea of having and managing a pond. I've always loved to fish and have always been drawn to the scientific/analytical side of everything. This has proved to be an interesting intersection of the two.

Until I get a pond of my own, I'll continue to live vicariously through all you pondmeisters out there.

At Bruce's request I am posting a Cecil Envy inspired project that I am documenting on the Inside Fish-Trout thread. http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000013;p=2

This is my first time raising gamefish (indoor or outdoor) and my first pond-like experience. I dug a 1/10 acre pond this fall and instead of waiting for spring to purchase the fish, I decided to purchase them now and overwinter them inside.

I bought 100 3-5" perch and 25 5-7" Rainbow trout. I lost 10 trout right off the bat, because I underestimated their DO requirements. I rushed out at 10pm when I noticed them gasping at the surface and purchased the biggest air pump and airstone that Walmart had.

My homemade system includes 2 110 gallon tuff tub stock tanks (they had more surface area than rubbermaid), two air pumps, a 300 watt water heater, a shop light with 2 bulbs that are supposed to stimulate plant growth, and a bog filter.

Here is a post from the thread that describes the filtration:

I finished putting in a homemade bog filter last night and it really cleaned up the water. It is simple with water flowing through boxes of gravel that I will plant over the next week. The gravel holds waste-eating bacteria and traps particles in the water to improve water clarity. I am planning on using this type of filtration for my 1/10 acre pond.

Here is the system.

Pic of the hole spacing on bog pvc drain.

This is the filter half completed.

Filter draining into the trout tank.

You can see some of the perch by the pump. Before today I had to drain the water to see them.

Here is the whole rig. I had to use hardware fabric to filter the water coming in from the trout tank as there was too much FA coming in.



I also moved the submerisble aquarium heater placing it horizontal. When the perch crowd the bottom of the tank to get near the heater they dont touch it now, which I think killed about 8 perch since I put in the heater. No perch have died since I changed the heater orientation.

Filter Update.

5 days after adding the biological filter and I now have zero FA. Water clarity is the best it has been since I added the fish. The only debris I have noticed in the water is old pellets. I might have to switch to a floating pellet to cut down on waste.

I have planted rice and Thai peppers in a seed starter try and will transplant them into the filter once they are 1-2” tall.

Thanks Bender. Your project dovetails nicely with Cecil Envy.

Here's the new setup to raise premium fish for stocking in ponds.



The near left tank is being used for a top-secret project to raise feed trained redear sunfish to place in ponds and subsequently take over the world. There are twenty fish that are currently resisting training. I am making some progress however by utilizing methods being perfected by Theo Gallus which will be detailed in an exciting article coming up in the next Pond Boss magazine.

The far tank is being used to house my 100 best Condello Strain bluegill. These fish are ranging up to 65 g.(averaging more like 35) and are agressively eating anything that goes in the tank.

The right side tank is being used to keep some bluegill for Cody and Baird to hopefully come get in the spring. There are late spawn age-0's that are in super nice condition, and it also has about ten age-1 bluegill that go up to 220 g. that Bill and Cecil can have if they so choose.

Here's the far tank and the nice bluegill.



Here's my best age-0 bluegill. I hope he continues to thrive because he will eventually be "put out to pasture" to produce more CSBG.
He's incredibly round and robust. He weighs 65 g.



Here's an age-1 fish that Cody and Baird would get. He was feed trained in an actual pond, but now that he is back in a tank he doesn't want to go back on the pellets. I don't know what this means, other than the fact that older fish probably don't like having their surroundings changed. They seem less adaptive than the age-0's. He's still a great fish, but I'm feeding him and others like him some krill that I bought to keep them from losing body condition. I'm pretty sure that this is a male, but at age-1 it is still sometimes quite hard to tell.



Here's a redear that I'm trying to train.(I think he'd train better if he was actually in the water, don't you?).

Dr Bruce,
Will your top secret RES eat chopped worms? If so, try mixing chopped worms or crushed krill with softened hi-po pellets (1st use a high ratio of natural:pellets). Roll or mold them and then blend a few of the soft rolled pellet mixture with chopped worms as your daily rations. You may have to experiment with getting the correct amount of pellet dampness when using dried plankton vs wet chopped worms. I have never tried to dry chopped worms in my food dehydrator . Honey, where are you going with our food dehydrator?

Where did you get your scales? Is it battery operated and does it have a tare feature?

The top secret redears actually will eat pieces of crawlers like there's no tomorrow. They're kind of iffy on krill, but they're warming to the idea. I think the fact that the water is only about 54 degrees is slowing the training process. Theo has convinced me to withold the crawlers to get them more agressive toward the krill and that's working so far. I've even been hiding 1.5 mm pellets inside of the worms with a tweezers. I'm going to try the chopped worm/pellet mix next week. It's all very exciting. What do you think of that bluegill that's just 23 weeks old right now? He's the number one fish.

The scale is from Wal-mart. I can zero it out with anything on it, then place a new item to get a weight. It's working really nice and it was quite cheap. I think it was twenty-some-odd dollars. It is battery operated, but I don't know what a tare feature is. It matches up quite consistantly with the more expensive produce I bought from Aquatic Eco-systems.

I don't know if I mentioned this, but I now take the sweeper nozzles and smash them flat with a hammer. There's less water that comes through but at a higher pressure. The redear tank isn't even using an aerator! I was pretty happy to save the electrical cost, and less water cost, too! Take a look at that near tank. Doesn't it look like I'm spraying a lot of water in there? In actuality it's only about four tenths of a gpm.

By the way, as a reminder to everybody, I still really envy Cecil and his monster trout and perch. That is the entire motivation to my project.

...and again, thanks to all of you guys for continued comments, encouragement, and mostly for the great advice. I've already been privileged to catch by hook and line some of the perch that were raised last winter (see my profile picture), but I honesly believe that I can use the system to select for fast growth feed training and agressiveness which could make a recreational pond a lot more fun for my Dad or my kids. It's also a great way of course to get your hatchery fish larger in an economical way, before releasing into your bigger pond where all of the nasty predators live.

The fourth picture down, Bruce, the one that says age 1 fish....what's the scale say there?

212 g.

454 g. = 1 lb.

Dr.Bruce, Tare n. is the weight of packaging minus the weight of the product. Tare v. is to weigh packaging to calculate the amount of tare to be deducted from a particular cargo. It is often used in weighing to zero out the scales before a particular item is weighed. You mentioned that the Wal-Mart scales had a zeroing feature.

Your fish are impressive. I am very hopeful that Cecil & I can complete the trip to your fish ranch this spring.

When trying the soft pellets method maybe try making a very stiff damp paste with the natural food-pellet mixture before you go to the fish barn. Amount of dampness is critical. Think of it as similar to filling a tooth. Too moist of packing will not compress properly. If you have it dry enough with several hours of aging, the mixture should be able to be molded and not stick to your fingers similar to pie dough or play dough. Mash or smash the soft pellets and mix in desired food pieces. NOTE - wet food pieces could cause the mixture to be too moist. Form the whole combination into a ball. Pinch off and mold soft pellets into a similar size as the pieces of chopped worms.

Bruce do you have the study on pellet trained RES ? You can also use Bill's method using menhaden oil or shad fish attractor (fish oil) to dampen the pellets.

Yes I have the study thanks to you!


I have not, however thought about the fish oil on the pellets. I'll be trying that in addition to all the great information from Bill Cody.

Go Big Redears!

Bruce,

Do you have Bill's recipe for softening up fish pellets into a doughy consistency? There's much more to it than just adding water.

Yes I do. I plan on implementing pretty soon. I've only had the redears in their own tank for about three or four weeks now. The first week was just getting them used to the surroundings. Now the last couple of weeks were just about getting them so they didn't freak out when I was around and I fed them some nightcrawlers to get them back to healthy. I'm really concerned about training redears in the very cool well water. Don't you think their slower metabolism will make for a delay in the training schedule?

Well they do suggest it's easier to feed train fish in warmer water at their peak metabolism.

There is also a phenomenon where feed trained fish are relocated and they seem to forget how to feed on pellets. I had this happen with some feed trained smallmouth bass that I put into a cage. They absolutely refused to have anything to do with the pellets after they were put into a cage so I fed them pieces of redworms to get them beefed up for the winter. Turns out most of the escaped through a hole in the cage, but next spring as the water warmed they were really into the pellets! Go figure.

I have noticed that my perch are much more active since I installed a 300w heater. It has kept the temps at 60 degrees. Water from tap is coming in the system at 55 degrees.

As we have come to expect from you, nice BG Bruce. I don't know which is more impressive to me personally, the big age-0 or the half pound age-1. I guess the former will be scariest next year when he weighs a pound.

I have been keeping 27 RES in my PBR since Sept 9 (the last 17 added then, 9 two weeks before that, and the first one is the survivor of 2 that went in at the middle of July). With the goal of pellet training as many as possible, I utilized tactics which started by feeding only freeze-dried krill and a small quantity of pellets every day. I have fed a "dessert" (after the main course of krill and/or pellets) of live, natural food (earthworms, beetle grubs, or mealworms) every 5 or 6 days on average. Initially this was to get some food in the RES which were more reluctant to eat pellets, so as to keep them alive and healthy long enough to have a chance to pellet train; since they have been eating pellets I have continued the desserts every 5-6 days to give supplemental animal protein in addition to the artificial diet (iaw feeding studies ewest has provided).

My experience has been that at first a few RES will take krill on the surface. Most of them will initially eat krill on the bottom of the tank after it has waterlogged and sank. The number of RES eating krill at the surface increased over the first two weeks, at which time it seemed all or almost all of them were eating krill at the surface. At this time I began decreasing the quantity of krill and increasing the quantity of pellets fed each day. After another two weeks the RES cleaned their plate of a 100% pellet meal for the first time.

I think Bruce's progress with his PBR RES has been commensurate with mine, given the difference in metabolism from water temperature (55 deg F for Bruce, 70 deg F for me) and the fact that he is not present every day to feed (given the difference in metabolism, it seems he is probably feeding often enough for how much they would eat).

The technique I used seems to work well with the RES over the range of lengths in my PBR (initial sizes ranged from 3.5" to 6.75"). I have been tracking the growth of the larger ones and it has been pretty good; Bruce thinks that the group photos indicate that the body condition of the rest of the RES is good too. There is at least one small RES who is noticeably thin, undoubtedly because he/she is living on the desserts rather than pellets. There could possibly be one or two other small RES that aren't doing as well but I have only seen one at a time.

Here's a group photo from Dec 10:


and here is the largest RES in the PBR. I'm assuming he was 6 3/4" long in September, with growth to 7 3/4" on Nov. 18


and to 8 1/2" on Dec. 10

Great Job Guys !!!! I knew you could feed train those mean old RES. Theo watch carefully. In 70 F water and adult status if the photoperiod is right for the correct duration they will try to spawn in the tub which will lead to increased aggression. :rolleyes:

That may be the reason they bit off my fingertip (see bandaid in 3rd pic).

I think these were all juveniles when they went in. I wonder if they can mature and spawn without having a cold water interval over the Winter? IIRC that is a requirement for spawning with at least some species.

Nice work, ya'll. Great photos and explanations.I am really getting the itch to do this.I'm just wondering how to transport them for several hrs. after they grow.

They did in my aquarium. From 2in. in May to 5 in and spawn in January. Temps stayed at room temp. The full moon in Jan. and they started making beds and uh-oh.

So what kind of photo period would be required? I'd think it would have to meet or exceed 12 hours of light per day.

How many hours of light did your aquarium RES get in January?

Very little info on RES spawning wrt specifics. See this re BG and GSF which should be close.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000318;p=2#000024

I agree with Bill based on prior research. It should take about 21 days for the female BG to develop eggs to full ripeness from the time she is exposed to the required photoperiod ( 14 hrs of light in studies)and the right stabilized temps. ( 68 F and above as I recall). I would also guess that there could be some local adaptation to these within a minor range.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002523

Based on this I would make a "wild guess" and say you should see ripe eggs by at least, around 21 days after the female fish are holding in water 60-68 degrees and with a photo period of 14 hrs.

It shouldn't be a problem to hold the effective "daylight" period under 14 hours/day, in a basement under one small window in sunny (not) central Ohio. Natural light is limited enough that the RES might be experiencing "daylight" only during the 4-5 hours a day the cover is off the PBR and I have a light on.

But if they start exhibiting spawning behavior, I'll know why.

It is more likely to be a problem if I try to hold any of them in the PBR through next Summer. I may need to go to an opaque rather than translucent cover.

Titanium Heater, 300W, 12" Price: $28.42

Salt water compatible. These submersible heaters offer excellent corrosion resistance. They are 1-1/2" in diameter, very durable and will not crack if accidentally dropped. The optional external temperature controller (not included) has an operating range of 72-93°F and includes a temperature ...


300 watts for 24 hours each day...

That's 7.2 kwh each day, right?

72 cents each day if my cost multiplier is .1 correct?

Is there a way to calculate how much warming effect this would have on a 150 gallon tank being supplied with .3 gpm? It basically would mean each drop of water that comes in at 55 degrees would spend 7 hours in the tank before it leaves.

I don't want to buy this thing and find out that I spend all that money and it warms my tank by 1 or 2 degrees. That's basically what I found out about my insulating hood. This year in the winter I didn't insulate the area around the tanks and they stayed the same temp as they did last year!

These 2 should help .

http://www.aquariumarticles.com/read/?art=1662&t=+%09Proper+Heater+Sizing

http://homerepair.about.com/od/plumbingrepair/ss/tankless_hwh_7.htm

Bruce, I trickle 50-75 gallons over 4 hours daily. Let's say 10 gallons per hour at the slowest rate (for the last couple of hours), which 600W of heaters will just keep up with.

That's 10 gallons/60 minutes, for 0.17 gpm. The water is delivered at 55 degrees and the ambient room temp is about 68 degrees.

You'd need 4 300W heaters for 0.3 gpm IF your ambient and water temperatures were the same. Considering it's colder (air anyway), figure on more.

What ARE your air (average) and water temps? Plus the enclosure size - I can estimate milk house heater requirements/cost to raise the ambient and we can add that to the tank heater cost for a total electrical cost ROM.

BTW since ewest noted photoperiod contribution to spawning preparation, I have been keeping a cardboard cover over the Redear tank 18 hours a day.

My average air temp will be at least 75 degrees this summer and the ave. water temp is about 55 degrees. I think if I continue to run the system "as is" this summer that I'll have temps in the low 60's in the tank, because that's what I had last year. I'd prefer to have the water temps in the 70's all summer so I can get some better growth numbers. I can make the water warmer by decreasing the water flow, but I'm worried that these tanks are so souped up that I'll come back and I'll have a bubbling cauldron of algae and dead fish. I'd like water flow AND warmth without spending a fortune on electricity. Is it possible?

POND BOSS CONERENCE TEASER




Click to view.

Bruce, what was that you threw in?

Krill!!!!!

Sounds very "pirate-esque" to be using Krill.

Way too cool Bruce! Those of you that have the opportunity to experience your ponds and fish every day are truly blessed. I have at least 12 more years before I can move and enjoy full time.

For Summer temps, I'd figure 4 heaters/tank for about 30kWH per tank per day.

The last electric bill I could find (January) ran $0.041/kWH.

I think I'm more like $0.1/kWH. Could the discrepency be that great?!? If my power costs were as small as yours I'd be doing a lot more at my ponds.

I thought you said $0.01.

If asked without the chance to check a bill, I always say 11 cents/kWH for a nation-wide estimate. So 10 cents is very reasonable.

I didn't do any math - would my electric company lie to me and say I pay 4.1cents/kWH? :rolleyes:

Something dont sound right. I moved to Houston in the 70's partly due to cheap utilities. Now 16 cents /kwh. There are over 100 providers now with deregulation. 14-16 cents across the board. What a ripoff. A small house averages 2000kwh per month in summer. 300-400 is the norm. More than my house payment before it was paid off a few yrs. ago.

I just rechecked and it averages .088/kWH.

Not quite as bad as I thought. I was originally counting the extra fees on some of the bills to come to the ten cents per kWH.

Burger! Why so high?

I dont know, Bruce. I dont separate all the fees, from the 'base' costs. Money is money. I just divide the bill by the kwh used and get the true cost.

Good point. My fees are usually 10-15 dollars for each bill. That means my total is about .91/KwH

Bruce, no wonder you didnt consider the fees. Not much to them. My 'base' price is about .085/kwh.
The fuel surcharge is .07/kwh. ripoff.

From the original tank raised fish...

Cecil, I've got a long ways to go, buddy. But they survived the winter!



BTW, you can see one of Cecil's heron discouraging devices in the background. My Dad was very pleased. Eleven inches even, but I don't know the weight.

Dad also caught one that was a little over ten inches. In 16 months we've got growth from the biggest fish being 7.5 inches to where the biggest fish are around 11 inches. I guess that's about standard for fish that are continuously pellet fed. Still, I think that I'm benefitting from the fact that I started with the best of the best from my hatchery. The more I do this the more I'm convinced of the important role that genetics play in the whole deal.

Bruce,


That's great! I think my record is in jeopardy in a few years but I welcome it. You see if you don't recall most of my perch did not stay on pellets, and I believe I would have had consistently larger perch if they had. Hopefully starting this year having perch in a seperate pond by themselves will help.

If you don't remember I did move about 60 females to a pond by themselves last spring but they had been off pellets for so long they didn't have much interest in them. Now I will be putting 4 to 5 inch feed trained perch in a cage and keeping them there until I can sort the males from the females the following spring or later. Males will be eaten. Females will be liberated into that pond or another one.

I was pretty stunned to find out that my perch are feeding like mad right now. I threw out some Aquamax grower 600 and watched them feed for fifteen minutes solid. March 15th is definitely the earliest I've ever gotten to watch this. Those feed trained yellow perch are pretty cool.

nice perch!! what's yer water temp right now?

i can share that feeling now bruce. i had another great feeding this evening with my new BG....cool deal.

is that a beach chair in the water (in the pic above)? in march? in NE? curious......and a hose on stilts? one of yer nozzle sprayers/circulators?

I've only had open water for a week, but the water temps have soared into the mid-forties already.

I put that chair on the little makeshift dock so my Dad can leisurely fish on his own pond.

I still haven't fired up all of the horizontal circulators yet. You're looking at one that is still inactive. Later on I'll push it down in the clay bottom and turn it at just the right angle and presto--I'll have aeration.

Here's a photo of the new "Cecil Envy" tank. It's currently working really well. I just simply cut the top off of an chemical tank that I had been given by somebody and used spare PVC parts that I'd saved in my trash pile.

How big is that tank and how many pounds do you think it will support?

450 gallons and currently supporting 50 pounds of fish easily. I'd be surprised if the system got stressed at anything below 150 pounds of fish.

Big, Bruce, big. What all do you have in the tanks now? Are you going to steal another funeral canopy from the cemetery to put over top of the new tank this Winter?

Right now my goal is to put in one more big tank and equally distribute my CSBG broodstock between the two tanks. I have 94 "best fish" for next spring's reproduction and hate having them all in the same tank. One of the little tanks (150 gallons) will have my 77 best age-0's, another tank will have 250 redears that I'll attempt to feed train, and another will have about 270 age-0 CSBG that are the 95th to 98th percentile fish.

I've decided to stop placing the canopy over the fish. The benefit seems to be nominal compared to just increasing the water flow a tiny bit.

I've been trying unsuccessfully for 21 hours to find a better way to say this, not that it's news to anyone...







You got it bad.

Theo, I'm obsessed with Bruce's obsession. I keep thinking that if he keeps at it, he will eventually develop a true-breeding large strain of BG. Not only that, but when all the fish in the mix are large, there's an ever increasing possibility of suddenly hitting the jackpot on a freak huge gene. (Like those guys did with the Atlantic Giant pumpkin). Wouldn't THAT cause a stir on PB?

Here's a link to an excellent related thread by BuckeyeWilly. Good stuff.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=100696#Post100696

bobad,

I'm going to try a slightly different approach next year. I have an extra pond to work with, so instead of taking several mating pairs for my F6 class, I'm going to have one pond with just the three best males and three best females, all age-2.

Both the males and females are currently just 16 months old and measure as follows.

Males,

9.375 inches
9.25 inches
9.125 inches

Females

8.5 inches
8.375 inches
8.375 inches.

As you can probably tell I am beginning to find that the ultimate top-line fish are males. The females are pretty amazing too, but the males seem to have a little edge.

I'm gonna keep my male Condello bluegills in a cage where they can't spawn and won't mature which slows down their growth. They will be GPCS BG's (Great Pumpkin Condella Strain Bluegills) mutants."

Bruce,

Is there any possiblity of interbreeding problems by continuously selectively breeding for fast growth -- ultimately ending up in slower growth?

I think that would be possible if I were keeping all individuals from each year class in the program. However since I always only take the fastest growing fish I believe that I'm keeping any defective genes from entering the population. If I get a defective recessive gene it would show up in 25% of any subsequent generation and would be weeded out at the next selection level when I pick the top 5 percent. Now if I get a defective dominant gene, then I've got a little bigger problem and would need to discard a year class and re-pick different individuals from the previous generation and try again. I'll lose a full year if this happens. It's a pretty good fail-safe system. So far each generation's select fish have grown faster than their previous generation counterparts. As long as this trend continues I don't think I have anything to fear. I have quite a few age-4 and 5 fish from the F-2 and F-3 generation and they still are showing good fitness and growth. You saw some of those fish in the seine this spring.

Sounds good Bruce. However I think I will develop three lines of bluegills (posted this before), and although I will select for fast growth, I will alternate cross them every generation to keep interbreeding down. Do you have the Fish and Wildlife Fish Hatchery black book first addtion? It explains this although it is used in trout production.

I have your line and mine. I may get some bluegills from a wild source to come up with the third line. (A little scary considering VHS -- maybe I should find a pond source). I have an 800 acre lake a couple of hours from me that is notorious for large bluegills. Not only do they routinely get into the 10 inch range (I mounted one for a customer out of that lake was just a hair under 12 inches), but I put two in my pond years ago and they took to pellets with the feed trained bass. They started out at 8 inches or so and ended up over 11 inches in two more years. After the bass had their fill of the pellets they just kept sucking them in one after another.

The good news about that is it only takes 1 or 2 fish to introduce fresh genetics into a large population. However, I guess you would have to be very careful with introducing strangers, especially in a small group.

Thanks for the synopsis Bruce. Those measurements are phenomenal. I can't wait to see next year's statistics!

Bruce why 3 males and 3 females? For others the BG do not pair up - the male has a nest and the females go from nest to nest depositing eggs. Seems like I read that there should be more females (1.5 to 2 females per male).

BG in middle America are pretty straightlaced - it's strictly monogamy for Nebraska 'gills.

Funny answer (on my part) to a good question (by ewest).....

The reason is that I just happen to have 3 males and 3 females that stand way out above the other fish in size.

After their initial spawn I'll attempt to move them to another pond with a more traditional mixture of males and females. This will just be a good chance to see if it makes a difference to just go with the top .1%

Extra-extra-high-grading.

Bruce you have the potential situation for a good nesting experiment/observation. I have not seen any study which addresses this in such a situation. Watch closely (as I know you will) to see where each male spawns/nests. Very interesting to see if , with the room, they will colony nest with 3 or be solitary nesters. Also if this results in solitary nesting if that trait passes on to the offspring and re-occurs in these individuals the next time they spawn. I sure hope none of them are sneakers or engage in cuckoldry.