couple of months ago you guys gave me lots of great input on F1 vs florida bass. now i have to decide next week. i really want the large size but i sure would like to be able to catch and release them. any opinion if i put in half and half? what do you think that would do? ( 6 acre new pond, north east texas). thanks.

darrell stringer

What about forage?

darrell,

It won't surprise you when I cast a vote for the F1's and HSB....maybe should say HSB and F1's.

Forget the Floridas. Even though there are legitimate studies which say Floridas are okay from a catachability standpoint, my experience just doesn't agree. In small ponds with catch and release and feeders and regular fishing pressure, Floridas are not a good choice, not at all. Besides, the F1's will grow as large as the Floridas given adequate forage.

No doubt in my mind HSB and F1's are the choice for predators in our East Texas ponds. The HSB are great "put and take" fish for small ponds. Fight better than LMB, grow rapidly, and taste terrific at the table. With a "put and take" operation, you never have to worry about over population, learning, catchability, stunting, etc. You do need to supplement the HSB with feed, however.

The last difficulty remaining to establishing this "put and take" fishery was a ready supply of 8 inch or larger HSB. George reports that we will soon have a reliable source for larger HSB in Todd Overton, Overton Fisheries. Todd probably has the small ones now that will work before you stock the LMB...after the LMB are stocked and grow, then you will need larger HSB to make it.

We also are fortunate in Texas to have ample access to choices of forage for the F1's and the HSB, including Tilapia, threadfins, and later on when your predators get larger, gizzard shad. That's my 2 cents. Good luck.

Darrell, About once in 7 or 8 years around Texas, Hell really does freeze over. The Floridas might not make it.

Hey, it snowed last Christmas in Galveston...

if i went with f1 and hsb what about quanity. 6 acres (let 's use 5 acres incase meaured wrong) on feb 12 i put in 5,000 coppernose and 40 llbs of fatheads. (1-3 " long). have been feeding and growing well. how many f1 and how many hsb? and since no prdators present i guess small size hsb ok?

thanks for your input and sorry about asking so much about the type of bass. i have had more trouble making this bass decision than any of the more minor deciscions like who to marry (40 years ago) and career and the number of children to have.

Darrell, if I recall from previous posts that your pond is in N.E. Texas – ours are located in Delta County.

We are currently growing out 200 HSB stockers in a ¼ acre pond and transferring into a two acre pond, upon the advice of Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries.

If I was starting from scratch I would go “heavy” on small and inexpensive HSB, with BG previously stocked, and Tilapia for both algae control and forage.
If you wait for 8-10 inch HSB you will find them quite expensive.

If the decision was solely mine in our pond – which it isn’t - I would seriously question stocking LMB and CC – unless in a separate dedicated pond.

With your larger pond F1 LMB may do quite well if your goal is growing trophy bass, otherwise I would look closely at the numbers of LMB you want to manage

There are several 8-10+ acre ponds in our area that I have fished – problem is they are full of stunted bass.

It has been said many times on this forum, it all depends on what you want from your pond.

George Glazener

The recommended stocking rate for HSB is generally about the same as LMB, from 50 to 100 per acre. Rather than stock them all at once, I chose to add 30 to 50 (to my 3.5 acre pond) HSB each spring and fall. That way I have various sizes of HSB in the "pipeline". I'm now harvesting 2 year old HSB for the occasional spectacular dinners. With this approach, I should always have some fish ready to take out and others right behind....and maybe a few old "mossbacks"

Yes, as long as you don't have the LMB, you can stock the small size HSB without worry of loss to predation.

The LMB, since I presume you are talking catch and release, could all go in at the same time. By the way the 50 to 100 per acre is total combined LMB and HSB, according to my understanding.

I'd recommend that you give Todd Overton, Overton Fisheries a call and tell him what you are thinking and ask for his advice. He's a good guy and trustworthy and experienced.

I know what you mean about these decisions...and because of that I don't ever post anything on this forum that I haven't experienced myself. The text book answers may be fine for some, but I prefer actual experiences. Even then, what one person experiences in their situation, does not always guarantee the same thing will happen in another persons situation. We just have to read, contemplate, and make an informed decision....but I'm betting you will absolutely love the HSB in your 6 acre pond.

"CC"...channel cats? I didn't realize that was on the table for discussion...no cats in my ponds, channel or otherwise and never recommend them....

I agree with George on the Tilapia and his observations on LMB...I'm just not ready to completely rule out the LMB yet, almost ready, but not there yet.

The only possible negative I see in HSB's is their lack of "sustainability". They don't reproduce and you aren't going to catch all of them. Thus, I would worry about restocking HSB bait for the larger ones. A grow out pond like George has might alleviate the situation.

Concerning catfish, I have them and am trying to catch them. They have gotten too large but that is a problem I have always aspired to have. When I get almost all of them, I will restock with 12 inch ones. I love them!

darrell,

Interesting article on Floridas and F1's and such...if you haven't seen it, its a good read.

http://www.strikeking.com/journal/journal022-1.shtml

Darrell, Here's my input if you haven't stocked already. You are only going to get one chance stocking small HSB in a new pond, future stockings of standard fish will be prey. Go heavy with initial HSB numbers as compared to F1 LMB. If you feed the HSB, put in what you can afford up to 100 per acre, if you don't feed, add Tilapia. That leaves plenty of room for growth. Your dominate predator will eventually become the LMB, but you have the selective harvest option while monitoring your pond.

meadowlark,
please bury this article. It is wrong and perpetuates the that F1 is gorilla and norhtern is Tiger WRONG! Barry told them reprint with correction and it was never done. Every time this article comes up folks get confused on what is what. Not telling you what to do but Cecil clued me in last year and we figured this artilce was the source of all the bad info. I wish they would pull it from the website. thanks

BTW Darrell, we have several clients that stock 1/2 F1 and 1/2 Florida. THe clients really want a chance to produce 18 lb bass from original stock florida. I also stock 1/2 f1 and 1/2 norhtern for clients wanting a more agressive nature in the bass genetic pool. If you have some ice in winter I would not sugest FLA though, it is hard to go wrong with F1, awesome fish.

Greg, can you elaborate on you and your clients expirences with any combo of F1, Northern, and Flordias.

Then if a pond is stocked with only F1, is a F1 and F1 cross good? or do you need to have some native or flordias to help the gene pool?

I know it depends on what the goal for a given pond and its location but, could you just give your take on some more pros/cons.

I would really appreciate it,
Thanks, JB

JB,
Hope this helps....An F1 is a true cross between two subspecies of largemouth bass. THus you will never hav any true F1's other than the ones you stock. However subsequent generatiosn will be a mix of some FLA, some Northern with most being genetics of both. Nothing wrong with this and not only do the orignial F1's do great in the pond but so do offspring.

To swing genetics in a more agressive nature stock with some pure norhterns, to swing toward more trophy potential stock some pure Fla's. Get it? Overall I think it matters little but it makes the pondowner happy and I think it does make a slight diff. Like I said though if you get quite a bit of ice I would shy away from pure FLA.

Thanks Greg, that the answer I was ready for. JB

Greg, The reason I like the article is that it states exactly what I have experienced and I might add what many folks have said on this forum...Florida bass in a small catch and release pond with fishing pressure does not work, period. I don't care if they are called tigers, gorrillas or whatever, but I was trying to help Darrell with his decision by recommending he avoid Floridas completely, consider F1's and especially consider HSB. I stand by that recommendation, whether they are called lions, tigers or bears.

JB :

While I am not a client of Greg's I have great respect for his views and I have used some of the same fish providers that he has. Because we are both from the southeast we see many of the same situations. I have been looking into the question of Florida's vs. northerns vs. F-1 {or other combinations ie. % of fla/north.} for a number of years. I agree with Greg's approach that a combination of the above is best and that is what we started in 1998. I have seen the best results with a combination of 40% northerns, 40% F-1 and 20% floridas. For a number of reasons I think the floridas out compete the others if all other factors are equal . The factors that lead me to this conclusion , in simplefied terms and without stating sources and reasons, are floridas have a longer life span , are less subject to predation by man and have a faster growth rate . There may be other factors both pro and con but these are the main ones. Because I did not and do not want the problems discussed above by ML and others , if I make an error I want it in the direction of northerns {aggresive trait}. I do think that larger bass are harder to get to bite artificial baits no matter which type of bass. They did not get big and old by being the dumbest bass in the pond . There is much more to this that I am leaving out for space considerations such as % and rebalancing over time. Having pointed this out please note that I am answering your question and giving my experience. This is not advice. My advice would all depend on the factors in your pond and your goals as Greg noted. ewest

Darrell, if you want fish that can look like footballs, and attack like torpedos, get F1's !

ML, spoke with hatchery in GA today and said he refuses to call them tiger and said he is calling his "bulldawgs" so they are now better since I'm a UGA grad. I here you about the F1's call them whatever good choice but so is the use of some % of others as EW points out

No matter what you call them or what their genetics are, they get hook shy all too quickly. According to the guy on the fish truck, I have F-1's.

Correction Dave...you had F1's...the poachers ate your F1's and my Floridas too.

Meadowlark,
In Greg's defense I think he was more intrested in in the correct terminoligy ie: nick names than whether or not we should stock one or the other fish. On that point I agree with Greg. There's enough confusion already with so many mistaken names of fishes.

It's a good article though & I apreciate your sharing it!

ML, had is right. But, I know they can't have gotten everyone of them. Me not catching fish only bothers me a little bit. Not seeing the small ones feeding at dawn is the killer. BTW, I did see one last weekend. About 12 inches. That is the first one.

I'll overstock my bass and call them skinny before I call my fish hook-shy. With the forage potential in TX, build the base and pack them in. I don't get to fish 1/2 as much as I would like to, the last thing I want is to be frustrated trying. Give me 6lb. test, a light action open face reel. I believe bass are more easy to cull, than to establish.

Sorry I am asking this, but I am still kind of confused as to what is what, and what I would want for my upcoming pond.
I want fish I can catch that get big....which bass do I want? Oklahoma here and we get cold winters, but not COLD cold (inches of ice and whatnot)

Thanks

BD, according to Godfather Lusk, genetics are sorta important but are not nearly as important as water quality and a strong forage base. Lots of us are regretting not just going with plain old Northern bass.

BD,

That's what makes this pond stuff so much fun to me...nothing is "black or white"... its all in-between.

My view, if you want LMB and you want them to grow large, and you would like to be able to catch them more than once or twice in their lifetime, the F1 is the clear choice.

If you want a game fish that grows large quickly, fights better than LMB, tastes great, and can be completely controlled in terms of numbers in your pond, you should consider the HSB.

That's what I'm doing and George and probably several others....we are moving toward a "put and take" HSB fishery in which we can forever eliminate the problems of stunting LMB and uncatchable LMB and LMB that must be caught, etc. Maybe we will fail, for sure we will make mistakes, but hell we are having a Ball!

One thing for sure, if someone tells you they have all the answers, you better run from that person because he/she doesn't know what they are talking about. Much about ponds and the fish we place in them has not yet been discovered...in spite of what some textbooks or experts would have you believe. Show me a book on LMB management that has a chapter in it on Tilapia...and yet Tilapia may be one of the greatest pond management tools available to the small pond owner. Texas A&M, no less the recognized source for knowledge on ponds in Texas, conducts a so-called Bass 101, Bass 102 etc. course. Guess what...nothing on Tilapia...guess what they told me when asked about Tilapia...something like "well we don't recommend them, but some folks have had some success with them"

Welcome to ponding, where the ponds (or nature if you prefer) control the environment and we are just passengers trying to find our way.

I had posted f-1's in the other thread I started, but I was wondering if I had it right or not lol.
Thanks guys, I might just use both (hsb's too) having those types of decisions on what to stock, is always a good thing

Northern might be an option too.
To many choices, but all are good for us.

BD :

I posted on your other thread as to your other question. On your question of F-1s or northern LMB based on the info I have seen you should try to get some local input as to F-1 results . I think they will do ok with the cold . If it were me I would use half F-1s and half northerns to hedge my bets as to both cold tolerance and growth/catchability. I would get them from a reputable local source with local brood stock. Based on your intended forage base {as per your other post} I would use 6-8 in LMB at the correct time. I am not addressing the HSB question , that is a personal choice based on your goal. Whatever combination of bass you use {HSB or LMB or both } you need to get the right #/lbs. for your pond . It is not good to overstock predator fish if you want to grow them large. ewest

This is true the more I think about it on not using 1-2" bass, after the forage has been in there a year....the baby bass would be to small to dent the forage lol. Makes sense.

Good idea on talking to locals, only problem is I don't know which hatchery is in Tulsa? Anyone know how to find out? I guess I could call the Wildlife Dept?

BD :

Hard to follow 2 threads at one time on same subject. About floridas , F-1s and northerns in Okla. see the following site and scroll down to Largemouth Bass. It gives you an Okla. answer and it was just about what I expected.

http://www2.luresext.edu/aquaculture/fishID.htm

This should help. ewest

Thank you!

What is the F1 cross? I understand the term but what is special about the F1?