I drained the pond today and will tell you what I found, but first I need to give background info...

I'll even try to post pics of the pond and today's harvest

I'm having a contractor replace my rusted out, galvanized, and leaking stand pipe system with a syphon system. He's also building a road around one side to provide access to the dam & asthetics. The road is 90% complete and the syphon system was installed yesterday and was already used to drain the pond. I woke up this morning to a small pool of water remaining. I put on waders and got busy scooping up all of the larger fish. This is an old pond (40+ years). I decided to drain and start over because the LMB have been EXTREMELY hard to catch and the BG seemed small and over populated. I'm a good fisherman. None of the BG we caught in the last several years were over 5-6 inches. I put 400 CC in there 2.5 years ago thinking they would help reduce the BG population. I also put in 8lb of FHM. We had a big flood a while back and I suspected much of the CC population went over the emergency spillway. Anyway, after spending the day in the mud with a net I believe all of my suspicions were accurate, but I'm still left with a few questions.

The fish count was 29 LMB ranging from 1lb to 1 8lb'er. The LMB averaged 3 lbs. There were only 6 CC in the pond, ranging from 4-7lbs. There were thousands of BG, mostly 1-4" & none over about 6". Sidenote: 25 yrs ago there were whopper BG in this pond. I was surprised at the lack of 3-10" LMB.....NONE! I did see baby LMB around 2". The FHM seemed plentiful.

My questions:

1) How did the BG get overpopulated / stunted? Too few LMB?
2) Would the CC have helped reduce BG if they stayed in the pond?
3) Was there too much food (small BG)for the LMB?
4) If too much food, where are the king-sized bass? (12-14 lb+ commom around here). My largest was 8lbs
5) Where are the 3-10" LMB?
6) Interested in pics?

I'm gonna need restocking numbers and timing for the restocking also. Interested in healthy LMB that are catchable & large BG. Want to keep it simple so will probably go with CNB & LMB. Maybe a few CC for table fare along the way, but look forward to your SIMPLE recommendations. Thanks in advance. Man I'm tired. Removing fish in the hot sun is hard work!

Sorry to hear about the draining - however, what a neat way to analyze a fishery!

Lots of the regular guys here will undoubtly have some great advice to come, and probably some questions as well.

Pictures are always GREAT - I'd post them if you can.

If it were me, and my pond - I'd want to know the ages of some of those fish that you scooped up - especially the larger bass, and maybe even some that seem small. 29 adult LMB seems light to me for 1.5 acres and could be part of the problem - but I'd wonder as well - where are the bass YoY?

FH

welcome to PB hardin, that is an incredible first post.

i'm wondering if the cats were top dog and ate most of the bass spawn.

as far as new stocking for a bass pond forget about cats and bass for a year, work on the forage base first.....FHM, BG, and RES.

As F-H said post pictures, we love pictures.

Hang on and I'm sure you'll get some input from one of the forum experts.

Welcome to Pond Boss, we're glad you found us.

Will try some pics. First try so bear with me...

building road to dam...before / after

[img][/img]

[img][/img]


Pond pics:

[img][/img]




fish pics:






syphon system:





more pond construction:

The bass are bigger than they look in the pics. Here is one being held up...

[img][/img]

That last Bass picture - looks like a pretty healthy fish with a good body:head ratio. Some of the oher bass look a little skinny (big headed). Did you have any Bluegill over 7"? How many?

So do you plan to go deeper with the pond? With lots of small BG - I'd say that you had cover that benefited BG less than 5" and once they left that "cover" or pond depth - they became Bass food. So did most of the young bass that must have been offspring!

This kind of stuff is interesting to follow and learn from.

FH

Great photos Hardin,

Bump for your questions

Experts?

Hardin's questions:

1) How did the BG get overpopulated / stunted? Too few LMB?
2) Would the CC have helped reduce BG if they stayed in the pond?
3) Was there too much food (small BG)for the LMB?
4) If too much food, where are the king-sized bass? (12-14 lb+ commom around here). My largest was 8lbs
5) Where are the 3-10" LMB?

I'm gonna need restocking numbers and timing for the restocking also. Interested in healthy LMB that are catchable & large BG. Want to keep it simple so will probably go with CNB & LMB. Maybe a few CC for table fare along the way, but look forward to your SIMPLE recommendations.

I'm no expert, but I'm waiting for the dew to dry on the barn roof before going up to touch up the paint.

Hardin's questions:

1) How did the BG get overpopulated / stunted? Too few LMB?
Yep. I sounds like a classic crowded BG pond with relatively few bass. LMB prefer to eat BG 1/3 to 1/4 their own body length. If you check the size of the BG overpopulating the pond vs. those 8 lbs bass, I bet you will see that BG in the preferred size range for the bass you've got are scarce, and that BG shorter than that are common.

2) Would the CC have helped reduce BG if they stayed in the pond?
Yes. Large CC can be effective predators on BG, especially at night. We have several PMs here with numbers of large CC in ponds that appear to have reduced BG numbers enough to help grow large BG.

If one is concentrating solely on large bass, CC predation reduces forage for the bass enough that many very many cats are not recommended.

3) Was there too much food (small BG)for the LMB?
Big Bass guys probably don't believe in having "too much food" for their bass, IF it is the right size for the bass to eat efficiently (see above). DD sez a bass should be abe to go to sleep hungry and wake up with a belly full of forage fish.

4) If too much food, where are the king-sized bass? (12-14 lb+ common around here). My largest was 8lbs.
The size of the available food probably is not efficient for bass larger than 8 pounds. A reduction in the number of middlin' large bass might have reduced BG predation and allowed some large BG to grow and feed a larger size bass. This is not especially my forte; I'm one of those big bream guys. See Lusk's "Raising Trophy Bass".

5) Where are the 3-10" LMB?
I think the 8 pounders ate them.

I'm gonna need restocking numbers and timing for the restocking also. Interested in healthy LMB that are catchable & large BG. Want to keep it simple so will probably go with CNB & LMB. Maybe a few CC for table fare along the way, but look forward to your SIMPLE recommendations.
10 pounds of FHM per acre, 1000 CNBG 3"-ish (actually 800 CNBG and 200 RES) per acre, spring.
100 F1 per acre, the following Spring.
Southern PM's with a big bass interest will have better stocking advice.

Thanks guys! Great info.

What size F1s should I put in the second spring?

4"-5"

P.S. Somebody give this bump on Monday so my numbers can be picked apart.

Welcome to PB and glad you posted as it will be a good exercise for all of us.

Before I comment on my observations I have a couple of questions.

1. How many lbs of LMB did you get out?

2. How long did it take to siphon the pond down?

3. When was the last time LMB were stocked and do you know what type were stocked and where they came from?

4. What % of the fish in the pond do you think you were able to scope out ?

Thanks for taking the time to post and the pics. A great learning opportunity for us all.

1. How many lbs of LMB did you get out? 70-90lbs

2. How long did it take to siphon the pond down? approx 15 hrs

3. When was the last time LMB were stocked and do you know what type were stocked and where they came from? last stocked at least 25 yrs ago. No idea where they came from

4. What % of the fish in the pond do you think you were able to scope out ? I got them all except for the bream that were less than 4". They died due to lack of oxygen and floated. I put in 100lbs of hydrated lime to ensure any remaining were killed. Rotenon(SP?) is off the market per my county agent

Thanks . Some observations.

The LMB look in good shape and of various sizes. The small ones were probably eaten by the larger ones, stuck in the muck or went out the drain.

The lbs of LMB + CC are within the high normal range for predator carrying capacity for an unfertilized and un-fed pond your size (35 to 75 lbs). They would be close being normal for a fertilized pond ( 80 to 150 lbs).

8 lbs is large for a northern LMB. If you had no Fla LMB genetics and your neighbors did - that would explain the difference.

It does sound like your populations were a little out of balance (limited large BG).

Did you check the exit of the siphon for fish ?

WRT a stocking plan for your stated goals keep in mind that at 200% of normal carrying capacity you would have around 200 lbs of LMB. A high % of those will not bite a lure especially the big ones. On small ponds the catch rate for LMB should be considered.

For a LMB pond the more current stocking plans are much different than the standard plan which was established in the 1950s (Theo provided those). Most current advice is 10 lbs of FH per acre , 2000 BG/RES per acre and 75 LMB per acre (100 for a balanced pond and 50 for a trophy LMB pond)with the BG and LMB at 2 inch stocker size. BG and FH in summer or fall of year 1 and LMB in spring or summer year 2 ( 9 mths +- apart).

Lets see what others have to add. Guys your turn.

Hardin , sorry been busy and just saw this post. I think your questions have been answered , lets move forward. I just finished our plan for a quality bass pond. If this copy and paste is hard to read so let me know and I can flip you the entire Powerpoint with background as to why stock this way. As mentioned past rec. were based on a different set of goals than many want now for quality bass experience. The results are pretty remarkable if followed through. I hope this helps and feel free to ask questions. I will try to answer back. Thanks

Fish Species Recommended Rate Cost Timeframe
Coppernose Bluegill 2,000 1-2 inches $500 Once lake is half full
Redear Sunfish (Shellcracker) 400 1-2 inches $120 Once lake is half full
Largemouth Bass 50 F1 “Tiger Bass” $50 June
Fathead Minnows 2,000 $120 Once lake is half full
Threadfin Shad ½ load $700 April
Golden Shiner Fry 250,000 $300 April
Crawfish 50 lbs. $150 Feb.-Mar.
Total Cost-Initial stocking $1940

Gizzard Shad One Load $1,200 4-5 yrs. after Bass Stocking

Greg, what size water hole are you talking about?

DD, this is per acre stocking rate. I would not suggest this for those wanting a "balanced" pond. Better for quality bass and this usually means to me 5 acres or more. Does that answer the question? Also some prices per acre will be less for quantity discounts and the 1/2 load of shad is enough for up to 10 acres as klong as before bass arrive.

Gotcha. Aeration would be a must with this stocking rate. It is really pushing the forage base but the bass ought to be well fed.