Pond Boss
Posted By: Mark B Midwest BC supplier? - 02/16/08 11:01 PM
Would like to find someone who handles Blue Cats for stocking, it appears no one here in SW Ohio or any of Ohio for that matter raises them, I can get larger paylake sized fish but want some small ones ( 5-7" ) for the 3/4 acre pond Im going to stock this spring. Anyone know where I can get some within a resonable drive? Could eggs be shipped priority mail?? I have access to a aqua farm that could posssibly raise them up for me. Just a thought...

Any help would be great!
Mark B
Dayton Ohio
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/18/08 07:14 PM
I don't know anything about them but I found this name on Aquanic.org

Stephens Catfish Farm Michelle Hughes Claude Stephens Route 2 Box 595 Linton, IN 47443 812-659-2938(bus) 812-659-2015 (hm) Blue catfish and channel catfish

Mark, is your pond finished now? Any pics?
Posted By: Mark B Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/18/08 10:24 PM
Thanks for the info, Ill contact them tomorrow and coordinate whats available.
Pond is done, still need to drop seed around it, it has about 8-9 ft of water in it out of a possible 12'. Im stoked to get FH-GS in, in April and then around July 1st will get the rest of the BC,HSB, HBG, BG, RES, BC and YP

Ill try to get some good pics on the next sunny day. its snowing like crazy right now

Thanks for the windows.live.com, that was awesome!! made my day while the wife was figuring out which horses were in the field.

Salmonid ( Mark B)
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/18/08 11:05 PM
You're going to try to do that in a 3/4 acre pond?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 01:21 AM
I concur with Dave D. I predict that if you stock blue catfish in a 3/4 ac pond, they will not get any bigger than if you would have originally stocked with channel catfish.
Posted By: ewest Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 01:23 AM
Why not Dave -- it sure sounds like an interesting plan. A fish free-for-all with Mark B as the ring master.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 01:34 AM
Why not? Blue cats when large will clean out all the forage fish and balance cannot be maintained. As I recall BC tend to be more piscivorous than CC. I am pretty sure that blue cats will top out at some less than optimum size when only fed pellets. If he is stocking BC for just to have something different then go for it. It will be a learning experience; I'm sure.
Posted By: Mark B Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 08:46 AM
Stocking for the fight and then as eating material. While I enjoy CC, as a sportfisherman, I think the blues are a much more appealing and prettier fish to catch. I am also banking on the fact they will top out in size equal to what the CC would do. There will not be any spawning material for them so there will be avery limited number of them. Probably stock 40 of them or so ( 4-6" if I can find them) and then as they grow, let them dwindle down. I also enjoy the experimental part of doing something different. If its not feasable, Ill definately go with the CC. Just thought it would be neat to have the BC

Mark B
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 11:06 AM
Mark, here's the deal. It's called biomass.

You're talking about FH, GS, BC, HSB, HBG, BG, RES and YP in a 3/4 acre pond at full pool. Remember that the NORMAL BALANCED pond can carry about 100 pounds of predators per acre. Remember that almost everything in the water is a predator of everything that can fit in their mouth. You can somewhat push the envelope with aeration, feeders, and either a flowing well or guaranteed rain. However, in the end, Mama Nature pretty well levels the playing field.

I don't believe you will be happy with the results after a short time. Long term is a guarantee. It's not only the blues that I'm thinking about. Bill Cody has said that fish live in their own toilet. However, there is no way to safely flush the toilet/environment.

I've done what you are talking about several times. I've also looked at a bunch of impossible to manage ponds due to lack of forethought. The results have always been an environmental disaster because I just haven't found the on/off switch or EASY button.

Look at it as a pasture containing both rabbits and coyotes. How many of each species does it take to keep each in balance? Without enough coyotes, the rabbits will eat all of the grass and then starve out. Too many coyotes will over predate on the rabbits and then starve out. It's all about balance with you as the Manager of the environment.

I like the idea of trying blue cats, Nothing wrong with the idea as long as you understand the biomass. I think I might even add some HBG and some feeders along with aeration. Think it over.
Posted By: Nebraska Chad Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 01:13 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Mark, here's the deal. It's called biomass.

You're talking about FH, GS, BC, HSB, HBG, BG, RES and YP in a 3/4 acre pond at full pool. Remember that the NORMAL BALANCED pond can carry about 100 pounds of predators per acre. Remember that almost everything in the water is a predator of everything that can fit in their mouth. You can somewhat push the envelope with aeration, feeders, and either a flowing well or guaranteed rain. However, in the end, Mama Nature pretty well levels the playing field.

I don't believe you will be happy with the results after a short time. Long term is a guarantee. It's not only the blues that I'm thinking about. Bill Cody has said that fish live in their own toilet. However, there is no way to safely flush the toilet/environment.

I've done what you are talking about several times. I've also looked at a bunch of impossible to manage ponds due to lack of forethought. The results have always been an environmental disaster because I just haven't found the on/off switch or EASY button.

Look at it as a pasture containing both rabbits and coyotes. How many of each species does it take to keep each in balance? Without enough coyotes, the rabbits will eat all of the grass and then starve out. Too many coyotes will over predate on the rabbits and then starve out. It's all about balance with you as the Manager of the environment.

I like the idea of trying blue cats, Nothing wrong with the idea as long as you understand the biomass. I think I might even add some HBG and some feeders along with aeration. Think it over.


Excellent post!

"It's all about balance with you as the Manager of the environment."
Posted By: ewest Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 02:56 PM
My point exactly NChad. If you can do it, its not bragging. FWIW a friend (fisheries science professor) had a large 5+ acres BG pond for research and teaching. The students started reporting that it was hard to seine any BG. In a couple of years almost none. So he went out and checked. He could not catch any BG and only seined a few. They drained the pond and lo and behold there were about 30 flathead cats (close to blues in size and foraging) that went from 10 to 60 lbs and some smaller ones. Seems a neighbor viewed his pond as the optimum FHC grow out tank.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 03:47 PM
Mark, As I mentioned earlier it will be a learning experience. Everyone needs to learn one way or another. You can go with your plan, keep us advised of your results, testify to your experiences and we can all learn from your future posts. Keep us advised, we are interested in the development of your fishery. Blue cats would be a novelity and hearing of your experiences will teach us more about them in small ponds. Use the advice you get here to your advantage. I for one, am curious how well all the other fish youplan to stock will thrive with competition from BC.

FYI - Thrive means continuing to reproduce and grow well on a long term basis.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 04:19 PM
These replies raise some interesting questions, Mark. Are you adding aeration? Do you plan to feed pellets? How many of each species do you plan to stock? How many BC and/or HSB do you plan to remove over the next 3-5 years? Are you adding spawning structure for the GSH and FH?

It seems that if the BC feed similarly to HSB that a plan could be developed based on a successful pond with HSB as the top predator with no LMB present. One thing I've observed with BC is that their mouth is not as large as CC relative to overall size.

Here's a 36lb bluecat. Notice how small it's mouth is, roughly 4" wide.


When comparing a BC to a CC in a 3/4 acre pond: Will the BC's smaller mouth and feeding preferences make it less effective a predator as it reaches larger sizes? Will the water quality pay more of a role with growth? Will food preference for live fish decrease the BC's growth potential in your pond?

The predators you plan to stock should take well to pellets. I wonder how well the BC and HSB will grow on Purina's new Largemouth pellets once they're large enough to eat them?
Posted By: Shorty Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 04:35 PM
http://www.uncwil.edu/cmsr/aquaticecology/LCFRP/Fisheries/nonnative.htm

Making sure your pond has freshwater clams availalble as forage for BC might be worth looking into.

 Quote:
Gut content analyses have shown this species to feed on a wide range of prey including snakes, birds, fish, shrimp, worms, eels, grapes, other fish and surprisingly clams. Over 75% of the stomachs examined contained an Asian fresh water clam (Corbicula fluminia) that was introduced by a bilge discharge in the Wilmington harbor in 1975 (Williams and Moser, in prep).

Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 04:41 PM
There's an article on clam/mussel consumption by BC in the February 2008 In-Fisherman.
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 05:58 PM
I have found several mussels in my pond that are 3-4" wide. I've never stocked mussels so the showed up on their own somehow. I don't have any RES, do they eat small mussels? A catfishing book I have says sometimes caught catfish will rattle because they've swallowed so many mussels. The book also says mussel meat makes good bait.
Posted By: Mark B Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 07:59 PM
I tried contacting both numbers of the fish farm Ryan sent me, both numbers have been disconnected...8^(
Anyone else know of anywhere in the Midwest to locate some yearling stockable Blue Cats?

Mark B
Posted By: Shawn Banks Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/19/08 09:37 PM
Mark,

You might try:

Osage Catfisheries, Inc.

1170 Nichols Road

Osage Beach, MO 65065

573-348-2305

573-348-1895

fishery@usmo.com
Posted By: ceadmin Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/21/08 10:23 PM
 Originally Posted By: Ryan Freeze
I've never stocked mussels so the showed up on their own somehow.


Hey that couldn't be from birds...nooo...they never drop anything in the pond must be some unscroupolous individual thinking your pond needs a boost...yeah thats it.

I am being facetious... ;\)
Posted By: Mark B Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/21/08 11:25 PM
Thanks Shaun, but its a little far awy for me to drive ( 6 hrs to St Louis from here) to get 20 of them and bring them back. Id like to stay within 4 hrs or so.

Salmonid
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/22/08 01:35 AM
Twenty large fingerling catfish should be easy to ship next day air. It is done all the time.

Freshwater mussels "clams" can get easily transported from pond to pond just by stocking fish. Freshwater mussels have a reproductive stage called a glochidium. This is a small (approx 1mm) specialized larva produced by the "mother" mussel. Glochidium is a temporary and obligatory parasite of fish. The glochidium use the fish as a transporter. The parasitic stage attaches to various parts of a fish. Location of the fish is often dependent on the type of mussel. The parasitic stage is harmless to the fish and lasts usually 10-30 days. At the end of the parasitic period the young mussel breaks out of a cyst and falls to the bottom where is develops into a juvenile mussel - "clam". Isn't nature amazing.
Posted By: ceadmin Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/22/08 02:37 PM
There you go Mr. Cody, muddying the conversation with facts again...
Posted By: Ryan Freeze Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/22/08 05:05 PM
Do the parasites attach to frogs, turtles and crayfish too? There is a creek about 150' from my pond.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/22/08 07:51 PM
Parasites are primarily specific to fish as transporters. If mussels are present in the hatchery ponds, those fish can transport the glochidium of the mussels.

I'm just trying to keep the correct information flowing and the standards high on this forum. Too much misinformation and myths "float around" in the pond management circles.
Posted By: Mark B Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/28/08 10:36 PM
Ok, I found a supplier about 2 hrs from here who will actually donate to me about 25 4-6" Blues so that is cool.( If I decide to go that route) I have been doing a lot of thinking and have spoken with several folks ( 3 different hatcheries, 1 private, 1 state and 1 federal) ) who raise and breed Blues and here are a few facts I did confirm.
Blues will , given enough food and water quality continue to grow as proven by several growers who had brood stock in excess of 50 lbs in tiny 4 ft deep ponds used to raise fish. They all told me that once they get to be about 10" that they do not do well on feed and once they are big enough to get live bait, will do it and would only come to pellets after being trained. several of these different places all told simmilar stories of using goldfish in the ponds to feed the bigger blues and that when it was pellet time, the goldfish would come in masses and then the blues (several of them) would push the goldfish school against the bank and hammer the goldfish like a shark. All said they were very smart fish and all said there brooders were taken from the wild. They also told me that whatever number of fish I was thinking, I should cut them down in half and go from there and should start taking them out once they get to be about 5 lbs weather I like it or not, (not a problem) as they get bigger, I should keep windling down there numbers.
Said they will not spawn/mature until they are about 15 lbs ~5 years.

All mentioned that blues will spawn in a pond as long as there is a cavity for them and success was only slightly less then CC in ponds with simmilar spawning devices. ( I will have no crator style devices, only trees, smaller rock piles and open water structures, pallets, etc.

All were concerned that with stocking Black Crappies into the pond would normally be a bad idea but felt the bigger blues and HSB,would be behind the curve ( wouldnt be big enough to eat adults for 2 years) and then for another 2 years would feast and play catchup until they turned the cycle around where they were too big and not enough forage for them. By using several varieties of panfish such as BG, RES and possibly a Hybrid BG, would and should put the blues to good use as far as a major predator since I will not have any LMB but only some HSP. This boils down to eliminating stunting of gamefish but creates a problem where the blues may eat more then they should ( when and if they get too big) and cause fewer large crappies (my goal) so I guess I am back to where I started which is I am not sure I like taking a chance with the blues when it is proven to be a better choice with CC.

That was a mouthful, until I figur eout which way to go with the cats, I am looking at getting the GS and FHM in the next 2 weeks as the ice melts. Here is another question, at what temp will the FH's and GS spawnn for the first time? I would like to get 2 spawns out of them if possible before stocking of game fish but my window to stock gamefish looks like it will be around the end of June. ( Im guessing water temps will be around 70 by then)

Keep the thought process coming...it totally confuses me.. 8^)
Salmonid
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 12:53 AM
FHM start spawning at 64-65 deg F and will continue all Summer long. GSH will spawn when the water temp is 68-80 deg F, ceasing when it is warmer than that.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 11:57 AM
Mark, welcome to the "confused' club. I've tried lots of things that really didn't work. I call them experiments after they haven't worked.

I think it was Cecil who said that you're not an Aquaculturist until you've killed a million fish. So far, I'm about a 24th degree Aqua guy and still going like the EveReady Bunny. I expect to kill some more in the future. I often say "Dang, that sounded like a good idea.". Throughout that I've found lots of things that just don't work out well in my area and some that do really well. There are some recommended ways to do this stuff but, like a lot of things, you have to maintain and manage a pond. You just might be able to pull off a blue cat pond. However, you will have to manage it and don't assume that you can catch all of your problem fish.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 01:54 PM
Bruce is the one who killed a million fish.

Cecil has only knocked off 100,000 or so, but they were REALLY BIG fish, so he rates as a first-class aquaculturist in my book.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 03:48 PM
Sheesh, I have a long, long way to go.

I've only terminated about 35 gams so far.

But with my lack of experience, horrid management strategy and poor work ethic I have high hopes for the future.
Posted By: Sunil Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 05:44 PM
No sweat JHAP. How many brain cells have you killed?

If you were thinking about fish, we are willing to say you've killed a million "fish."
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 07:49 PM
Theo, I have once again managed to kill off just ahout everything in a small pond. I ignored my forage pond (again) for about 4 months. The CNBG and BG did their usual thing and overpopulated. Green water with no oxygen occurred (again) and I once again only have some really small fry. I seined thousands out of it in the Spring. Then trapped another thousand or so. All were relocated.

The fish I took out went from one to about 7 inches. By the time they did themselves in with my lack of loving care, I figure there must have been 30 to 40K in there. Who knows? Actually, I'm getting pretty good at this.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 02/29/08 07:56 PM
Everybody needs a hobby.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Midwest BC supplier? - 03/02/08 11:55 PM
Near Dayton OH, if you get the FHM in by mid Apr the second spawn or round of egg laying by adults and hatch of eggs of FH should be around mid to late June. But are you stocking enough adults to achieve adequate numbers of YOY to feed the predators with just two egg laying sessions?
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