Pond Boss
Posted By: gregWV Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/23/06 12:44 AM
I have read many posts about fathead spawning sites and creating them but in a small pond (1/10 acre), would a 4ftx8ft peice of plywood be a good choice? They are about $20 and could be placed 1-2 feet underwater on top of blocks so it would create a 4x8 underwater surface on both sides of the board? What do you all think about this?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/23/06 12:53 AM
Cut the plywood into small pieces (approx 12"x12") and place them in separate locations. Fathead males are territorial and chase other fish away from the nest. So isolated or smaller separate spots are much more productive than one big open area. Some fathead raisers will take the smaller boards (cedar shingles) and put or pound them into the pond bank under water at a fairly close angle (30-45 deg)to the bottom. One fish will use each board for spawning.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/23/06 01:21 PM
Mr. Cody
At what depths would one place these? Could they be as deep as 4-5'? Would 6-8' spacing down a shoreline be enough? I'm thinking of using surveyor's stakes (wooden) and stapling some cedar shingles to them to hammer into side of new pond. Not sure of water level other than "full" level as flagged. I appreciate your time and all you have shared...taught on this forum.
Posted By: ewest Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/23/06 06:23 PM
ahvasta :

If I recall your pond has a number of pallet structures (and others)in shallow water. Those are good for FH spawning sites as they provide multiple slats for spawning and a place (inside the pallet) for them to seek protection. I use pallets placed flat for that purpose. If you have extra pallets you could put them out. They will also use the underside of limbs etc. but I dont know if they will use your hay bales or tires.

What is your plan for the FH ? Are they just to start you forage base or will you try to keep an ongoing population in the pond ? I have been thinking about methods to keep a viable population going in a pond with existing predators.

Links :

http://aquaticpath.umd.edu/fhm/intro.html

http://www.uaex.edu/aquaculture2/FSA/FSA9003.htm
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 01:24 AM
ewest
Yes that pond is ready. I have also added a pier\boathouse. I made some deep water mounds...ah la Meadowlark. I will try and add pictures soon! This drought has me thinking some 16-20' water in places, so I've added some channels (approx. 1700 yds. of clay removed). The questions, in above post, are for #2 and #3 ponds. We have taken full advantage of this dry spell. lol
My plan is also a viable population. I have made some changes on my catfish pond, cuts, channels, a 200'x 50' 6-7' deep canal, and am still trying to match Theo's "thick enough to walk on".
Gainesjs's pictures of his dock were an inspiration so I did a close duplication. Again hope to post pics soon.
Posted By: ewest Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 02:16 AM
ahvasta :

Are the FH for pond 1 ,2 and 3 or what combo? In one article today I saw some FH breeding structures that looked like what Bill described but they were attached to up right poles at all depths and angles on 3-4' poles. All the info I saw said near shore for spawning areas ( 1-4' of water). If I find it again I will post the link.
Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 03:21 AM
I had fatheads spawing on boards just floating on the surface with one end stuck in the bank.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 03:25 AM
Hope you find link. I want FHs in all the ponds.
Here's a Pier slideshow:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/Catfish%20pond/Pier/
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 04:25 AM
For board placement shallow seems to be best. Six ft may be a little deep but usable. As Ric said they will use floating boards which may be able to, with some adjustment, rise and fall with water levels.

One foot spacing is usually adequate to minimize territorial behavior. Visual barriers work good for close quarters of breeding situations.
Posted By: Russ Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 12:02 PM
A link to some fathead spawning information.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000754#000005
Posted By: ewest Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 01/24/06 04:42 PM
Great link Russ. Thanks Ahvatsa for asking the questions as it encouraged me to learn more about FH. There is more to learn about them and I will start a thread tonight called " Towards Understanding Fatheads" with some info on them and maybe some surprises.

Here is what I found about FH spawning structure from the articles. The PB link by Russ was on the money. That is what you get (and expect) when Bill , Bob , Dave W , DD and the other posters on that thread are involved.

Here are the results from the articles relative to artificial spawning structure for FH , in no order of preference :

1. Small boards tied/stapled to ropes/wires submerged in shallow water near shore. The boards after a while sink and are held suspended underwater by the rope. This is the most mentioned method for use in FH aquaculture as most of the articles are about that and not regular ponds.

2. Pallets submerged in shallow water near shore. This and 6 below offer the most protection to spawning FH as they are not as subject to attack from below while inside the pallet/pvc.

3. Boards stuck in the pond bank near shore part submerged part floating at 60 to 90 degree angle to the pond bank.

4. Old style wood soda cases in shallow near shore water as per Bob"s post. I am sure this method would be mentioned much more if the soda cases were not so hard to find.

5. Fish spawning fabric submerged often attached between sticks/stakes but not on bottom in shallow near shore waters.

6. Various pvc structures from trees to just stuck in the bank to platforms/condos some with fabric attached.

7. FH trees -- poles with dowels and small board attached at all depths, angles and directions about 4 ft. tall and placed upright in shallow less than 4ft of water near shore.

The articles also mention natural structures like limbs, rocks, weeds (most mentioned and stressed), and brush. Here is the link to the FH trees :

http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/sallen/Fathead/FHMwebsite.html

http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/ga/baitfish.htm
GregWV, If you looking to make something simple that a changing water depth will not be a factor,Go to the PondBoss "photo" link on the home page >(upper left) go to page 4 >look in the last row 3rd pic from the left.This is a system (1 of 3) that I installed last winter.I used cedar from discarded telephone poles.Works great, Drape a poly fence on the outside row to keep the bass out but you will find the FH will swim out and become dinner every time !!Good Luck
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 02:17 AM
Bill Cody
I made the FH lollipops out of stakes and cedar shingles and
" Fathead males are territorial"
is unreal! Even when an oak twig or leaf would float near shingles they would attack it. The males are almost black and FAT. The activity just started in the structure area. I was so intrigued I watched them for an hour. Thanks for the info, you have been extremely helpful. This was easy and precut stakes are available at Lowes with shingles. I believe this should help the spawn and is fun to observe.
al
Posted By: ewest Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 02:24 AM
Al I bet if you check back in a couple weeks if they are in your pond with the pallets they will be there also. Let us know how it works as I am going to do the same behind a blocking net along with 2in BG and RES with feed in about 10 days.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 02:34 AM
ewest
Sad to report the pallet pond is dry! This is a small pond below a windmill I just finished in Ja. I ran a 2" overflow line down to pond and have about 6' of water. I am splashing the water on rocks to try and add some oxygen to it.
In all the recent rains I've had .20...sad...
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 11:15 AM
I tried pallets in shallow water. It was a brushy, rocky area and the fatheads ignored them. I never stopped to think that they might have been made of some wood that the minnows didn't like. They reproduced and I guess they preferred the natural stuff.

As a humorous aside, my wife asked who tossed the junk into the water. I explained why I did it and got "the look". It was followed by silence which is not, altogether, a bad thing.
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 11:38 AM
 Quote:
Originally posted by ahvatsa:
I want FHs in all the ponds.
ahvatsa,

Have you considered trying some Gambusia? I have found that Gambusia will sustain a vibrant population if you have any kind of vegetation close to water for them to hide in and spawn. Fatheads are really a waste of time, in my opinion , as far as being a reliable sustaining source of forage. (edit....my efforts to establish them have been a waste of time is what I meant to say, sorry). They are great for kick-starting your pond, but do not survive predation or sustain a population. Gambusia, on the other hand, while smaller, can sustain themselves for the life of the pond. I have one 75 year old pond that is crawling with Gambusia year-around. Small bass love them as do larger BG. The TGG's absolutely devour them....and best of all Gambusia are virtually free. You can find them ocurring naturally in just about any body of water in East Texas. They are under rated and under utilized IMHO as a small fish forage base.
Posted By: ahvatsa Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 12:27 PM
ML
Do you net or trap the Gambusias? Are they sold commercially? Lake or creeks best? Haven't had much experience with them. I have a 1600 gal. open storage near windmill and "feeder" goldfish have cleaned the alge wonderfully. I called 2 local dealers for RES and none were available. I also wanted some all female bass (only 25 or so) and neither "sexes" fish. The storeage has snales. I was thinking of GGs or same sex BGs for small pond. The catfish pond is below 4' and I may have to rescue some albinos. I don't want to lose them. Some may end up in the new small pond.
al
ps Didn't want to bother Todd with a small order. I should see if he has a truck coming my way. I offered one man $10.00 for mature RES only...he insisted they didn't seperate BGs and RES. I pass bait stands at Calaveras lake, wonder what kind of minnows they sell?
Posted By: Matt Clark Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 01:30 PM
Dave Davidson1:

I have also received that same "look", and have been told that there is to be no more "structure" added to the east pond. I'm OK if the water level doesn't drop too much this summer. If it does, I'll be found guilty by a jury of 1... 8^)
Posted By: Brettski Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 05:34 PM
 Quote:
I have found that Gambusia will sustain a vibrant population if you have any kind of vegetation close to water for them to hide in and spawn. Fatheads are really a waste of time, in my opinion , as far as being a reliable sustaining source of forage. They are great for kick-starting your pond, but do not survive predation or sustain a population. Gambusia, on the other hand, while smaller, can sustain themselves for the life of the pond.
Interesting angle proposed by ML. Is this a serious consideration for my upcoming project? I have not seriously considered my stocking plan, but I foresee the standard BG/LMB/CC combo. About 1/4 ac of the pond will be dedicated to a wetland zone with shallower water. It is in this area that I planned the "wooden skid" technique. I never was crazy about the thought, but willing to give it a try. If I could avoid more "stuff", I too might be able to evade "the look" (besides, having a bunch of skids in this special nature zone just doesn't seem right ). I have a few months to decide. Is Gambusia a reasonable forage alternative in a midwest pond?
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 08:13 PM
Brettski,

I said that very poorly...what I meant, and didn't say, was that my efforts at establishing fatheads have been a waste...a failure. I've tried pallets and pvc cuts but nothing has helped establish a sustaining population. Fatheads are a great starter for your pond, but as for a reccurring source of forage, it is very questionable....at least for me.

Gambusia, on the other hand, show up in our ponds whether we want them or not. I happen to feel they are a great low end forage fish, for small bass and medium and up BG.

As to whether they would survive in your winters, I'm not sure...seems like Theo has some?
Posted By: Meadowlark Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/07/06 08:20 PM
 Quote:
Originally posted by ahvatsa:
ML
Do you net or trap the Gambusias? Are they sold commercially? Lake or creeks best?
ahavatsa,

Really it is one of those fish mysteries, but they just show up in just about every body of water in East Texas. I don't know of anyone specifically in Texas selling them, but someone will probably chime in. When I started the TGG experiment, I bought 1000 of them from Deb to get things off to a good start...and a good start happened.

It may be because they are so prolific and self starting that not many people sell them in Texas.

A combination Gambusia/fathead program really gets a pond going...they both serve a good function, in my opinion.
Posted By: Theo Gallus Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/08/06 01:13 AM
We got Gambusia one year, but they were only in watering troughs. They did not survive the water quality crunch that occurs when the leaves drop into the troughs in the Fall (the troughs can get pretty gross), so I don't know if they would Winter here or not. I think they would.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 02:41 AM
Yesterday, I put a pound of fatheads in a small sediment catch-pond (about 20 x 25, and about 5-6 foot deep). It is one of my "Mongo" ponds used to catch debris before the water flows into my main pond.

This is mostly just inexpensive entertainment ($10 for 1 lb. of fatheads) to see if they will prosper. I'd also kind of like to have some for bait.

If the fatheads reproduce, I plan to move some to all the other small water holes I have dug, and I plan to use some in my aquaponics tanks.

I've got a bunch of damaged/scrap 4-inch corrugated drain pipe.


If I were to cut this in small lengths and weight it so it sinks, would this work for fathead spawning?? What would be a good length?

Many different kinds of frogs and other amphibians seem to thrive and grow fat in these small ponds without my intervention. Do I need to feed the fatheads?

Thanks,
Ken
Posted By: fishm_n Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 03:46 AM
Greg. To your origianal post, I think 4x8 may be too big.

I would at lest cut it inhalf.

And as some of the other post mention, it might depend on the wood, hope it isnt treated with some thing that they dont like.

Good luck, let us know what it is yo do??
Posted By: Rainman Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 04:03 AM
Originally Posted By: catmandoo
Yesterday, I put a pound of fatheads in a small sediment catch-pond (about 20 x 25, and about 5-6 foot deep). It is one of my "Mongo" ponds used to catch debris before the water flows into my main pond.

This is mostly just inexpensive entertainment ($10 for 1 lb. of fatheads) to see if they will prosper. I'd also kind of like to have some for bait.

If the fatheads reproduce, I plan to move some to all the other small water holes I have dug, and I plan to use some in my aquaponics tanks.

I've got a bunch of damaged/scrap 4-inch corrugated drain pipe.


If I were to cut this in small lengths and weight it so it sinks, would this work for fathead spawning?? What would be a good length?

Many different kinds of frogs and other amphibians seem to thrive and grow fat in these small ponds without my intervention. Do I need to feed the fatheads?

Thanks,
Ken



Why not hang longer sections on rope to semi-float....FH would like that better I would imagine.
Posted By: John Monroe Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 09:40 AM

This model with three slots of 3/4", 1" and 1 1/4" doesn't seem to be working. The minnows won't go inside but rather swim over the top. So next I will next try 3 1/2" slots using 2x4's. If this size entices fathead minnows to swim inside, the finished stacked unit would be about 2' wide x 10' long and stacked several compartments high. My question is, if fathead minnow are territorial would a lot of the undersurface not be used for egg deposits because the fatheads need to have some separation from each other? If this is true I don't want to waist my time building something that won't work well.

Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 11:26 AM
John, that sure seems that it should work. I wonder what hatcheries use?
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/11/12 01:39 PM
IIRC each FHM stakes out an area about 18"-24" square if they can see their neighbors.
Posted By: John Monroe Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/12/12 07:36 AM
Esshup would the 18" to 24" fish egg areas butt up next to each other or is there a waisted spacing between the 18" to 24" area? If you think there might be then I will just make 18" square surfaces and stack them with probably 4" spacers. This is what I have in mind. I have some alum. siding that's been setting in the pole barn for years.

Dave I should make a model based on the picture and observe it with different size spacings like I am doing on the present model before building a lot of them.


Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 03/12/12 04:50 PM
I think they'd be able to butt up against one another. I wouldn't make the condos very tall, not more than a couple of feet.
Posted By: Frozengator Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/24/12 07:00 AM
I have two black plastic skids that I thought about cutting some 1/2 pvc and putting about 20 6" pieces vertical between the two skids and then put rocks on top to sink the skids in about 4' of water. and maybe put legs under them so they dont sink in the mud too. Any thoughts on this???
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 04/24/12 11:31 AM
If for FHM spawning, I think 4' would be too deep. But, for other cover, I think it'd be perfect.
Posted By: Elsie H Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/02/12 11:17 AM
catmando - I found 150 ft. of damaged 4" flex at an auction four years ago. I bought it all for $15. I have used it to build bunny rabbit "safe zones" in our woods. An 18" piece will keep the coyotes away from the young rabbits. Our rabbit population seems to have improved a lot. But now I can't keep them out of the veggy gardens.

I cut seventy 12" to 18" pieces for shelter/habitat in my lake. It seems to work GREAT but I always have a terrible time finding enough weights to secure my artificial habitat to the bottom of the lake. I prefer to use broken fiberglass 3/8" rods from our portable electric fences to stake the sections of flex to the bottom of the lake but sometimes they let go in heavy storms. Otherwise I use weedeater line and a brick.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/02/12 08:13 PM
I have come to realize FHM will spawn on just about anything. Having put rosey reds into the pond and with their visibility, it makes it much easier to observe them. It cracks me up the places they choose as spawning sites. Of course they are using provided spawning sites, but they are also utilizing things I never thought they would!
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/02/12 11:07 PM
CJ, could you list the things? I'm trying to figure out what to put in a 1/10 ac forage pond, but yet have it easily removable to seine. The sides are 2:1, and the water is 6' below the grass/soil level, so that makes it difficult to put heavy objects in the pond.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/03/12 12:41 AM
I have two pallets, which seem to have 4 FHM spawning per pallet. They are not sunk to the bottom, just floating. Several FHM are spawning on the sides of stumps of willows trees that were cut down and treated to kill them back. Of course any rocky area for rip rap has multiple FHM using the rocks to spawn under. I have placed a number of CD's stacked on top of each other using washers to leave a space as spawning structures for my spotfin/satinfin shiners to spawn on. However, the FHM have been using the bottom of each stack to spawn under. There is also a red solo cup that somehow found its way into the pond half buried in the sediment. An FHM is spawning on the inside of the cup. That maybe the cheapest, easiest spawning structure out there Scott. You could just sink several cups with a small stone and scatter them around the perimeter of the pond. When you want to seine, just pick the cups back up... Since they're bright red they'd be easy to find.
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/03/12 04:23 AM
Right now there are maybe 4 pallets floating around in there, and another 4 pieces of 18" sq. closed cell foam 2" thick.

There are (or were) papershells in there too, but none have been seen lately since 2 painted turtles and one large snapper were seen in the pond. No rip-rap in the pond.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/03/12 05:37 AM
I have heard the painted turtles in particular are nasty on the crayfish population. I've considered adding softshell crayfish to the pond, but with several painted turtles and at least 2 snappers I think it would be a waste.
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/03/12 02:14 PM
CJ, the plan is to place a number of 12" pieces of cut off 2" dia PVC in the pond, tied together with a rope like a ladder - to make them easy to remove for seining. Hopefully that will give them some place to hide that turtles can't get into. Without cover to hide in, and the varying water levels, this forage pond hasn't been very productive for fish or crayfish so far........

It's close to the forest, so the leaves falling into the pond in the fall make for hard seining too. Just have to seine before they start to drop!
Posted By: hang_loose Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/05/12 05:37 AM
CJB, I didn't know painted turtles liked crayfish. Do you think they could catch the ones that leave the little volcanos around the pond and the ditch?
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/08/12 03:05 PM
I suspect the tunneling species would be less vulnerable to predation, but would be preyed upon at times.
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/14/12 05:40 PM
I am just building my pond right now and have a bunch of 4" and 6" clay tile. I am thinking of placing many of these all around the edge of the pond in different depths for our FHMinows to populate on and hide in.

Rain I need rain to fill up my pond. Hoo hum.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: esshup Re: Fathead minnow spawning site? - 06/15/12 03:32 AM
Shoot some good grade marks and put the tiles in water less than 24" deep, less than 12" is better. They'll love you for them.
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