anyone ever used kiddy pools filled with pea gravel on brim beds?
https://www.toysrus.com/product?productId=87953486&source=CAPLA_DF:87953486:TRUS&cagpspn=plat_EFAA58DE&camp=PLAPPCG-_-PIDEFAA58DE:TRUS&gclid=Cj0KCQjw95vPBRDVARIsAKvPd3IxienGovFyVztZihcjjZZkQ_xhn9TRj6ekRMuMhdQXInB44aKWLI4aAsiYEALw_wcB

$5 each

Seems like an awesome idea honestly

It will work. Sunfish and BG will spawn in even smaller diameter containers. 'Nest' diameter usually depends on the size of the adults.

Awesome *AND* inexpensive. Probably the best bang for the buck in containers. Curious newbie question: Why do you need a container? Couldn't you spread the rock/gravel over an area? Does it have a propensity to move or get otherwise covered where a container would mitigate that?

/clayton

Gravel and small rocks have a tendency to sink down into a mud bottom over time and just disappear. If you spread the gravel deep enough and over a large enough area it should last a long time. But if you are trying to build nests with gravel 5 gallon buckets full at a time, any amount you are going to get placed likely will be gone in a year or two. Unless your pond bottom is bedrock.

The containers simply allow you to make a bed with a modest amount of rock and it stay there longer. The fish really get at it when they make beds and likely will move some of the gravel completely out of the container.

Another option that works before the pond fills up is to put some landscape fabric down with the gravel on top. That would work better for a fairly large area rather than just a small spot. The fabric keeps the gravel on top of the pond bottom instead of sinking away into the mud and disappearing.

An interesting side note, in a recent pond I built dedicated to raising redear sunfish I put some mixed size crushed limestone in pockets around the pond perimeter. Basically took the tractor loader and made a cut down into the bank forcing a "ledge" out into the water area. Then with the same loader dumped about a third cubic yard of multi-sized rock in this void. The dirt wall created by the loader cut keeps the rock from migrating down the incline as the fish "work" the gravel into beds. Drove around the pond a while back and noticed about 4 beds, likely made by the dozen adult size RES I had stocked this spring (along with 200 fingerlings). Not a single bed was in the areas I created but instead in the mud clay bank. And so it goes.

The fish have their own idea of where they want to spawn.

I created a spawning bed in my main pond also before it filled. First year the fish never used it. It grew great FA though. They made beds where they wanted to. But subsequently the fish have used the areas I created. Something about the rock weathering in? I have no clue. I just know the fish do their thing to suit themselves, not us.

If you are interested in using containers another one that I have not used but I think would work well and is economic and tough are the plastic tubs that are used to hand mix quickcrete type concrete. You can find them in Lowes or Home Depot right near where the sacked concrete is sold. They come in two sizes.

Depends on the pond bottom. When the area is clay you can use a shovel and buckets of gravel and it will work. Take the shovel and using the back side make depressions in the clay about 10-12 inches across. Make about 50 of them in a circle (colony spawners). Put gravel in the bottom of each bed. See pic below. Don't create beds where sediment will wash in on the beds - like a creek inlet or drainage inlet.

I've had a pair of gravel filled kiddy pools in the pond for over 6 years, but this spring was the first time they were used. I think I would have had better luck if I had placed them in the areas, and depths, my CNBG were already frequenting.

I have been considering splitting am few plastic 55-gallon barrels lengthwise for containers. Then filling with egg-sized gravel for breeding beds.

Consider an elevated platform in relatively deep water where platform is supported to be about 2' underwater and covered with about 2" of pea gravel or sand. Just about any substrate will work. Border platform with a 2" to 4" rim to prevent tail-sweeping males from displacing substrate from the platform. The arrangement will not increase nest numbers but will make so they are likely more easy to monitor.

I use such in larger tanks (~2,000 gallons) where individual nest bowls formed by rubber bowls or 5-gallon bucket bottoms are supported by 8" x 8" x 16" concrete blocks standing on end. Blocks will not work on a soft bottom.

"Been there done that" on the kiddy pool. I tried it only one year and I put it too shallow I believe. I had a couple of larger rocks in it with the gravel and the fat heads loved it. I still think it will work.

Last year I put together some pvc pipe in a rectangle and covered it with a poly tarp. I drilled holes in the pvc to let the air out and sunk the unit and then poured gravel on it. Fish were on it the next day! I made several more like that and had lots of fish spawn on them.

My ponds are weedy and weeds tend to creep in from the sides. I think my best option would be to do as Jim suggested and build a platform in deeper water. That will be a bigger project.

Just curious but won't mother nature just have them spawn wherever they can with whatever is available? My cnbg spawn at least 4 times a year and have every year. I have no gravel or rocks. Only a clay bottom with some muck on the bottom. I never see any beds but always have plenty of 1-2 inch fry around the ponds edge.???

Yes BG will spawn where they can. The main reason to add gravel is not initial spawning but survival of the eggs and yoy for the first few days. See below. It is a numbers/weight matter. The more #s that survive for a while longer adds numbers and weight to the forage base.

Role of Male Parental Care in Survival of
Larval Bluegills
MARK B. BAIN AND LOUIS A. HELFRICH
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Science•
Virginia Polytechinc Institute and State U niversity
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061

Abstract
Mortality of larval bluegills Lepomis macrochirus from predation was measured in 56 nests
guarded by males and 21 nests from which the male guard was removed. Mortality was s ignificantly greater in unguarded nests(median= 68%)than in guardian nests (median= 14%).Fish
traps placed in unguarded nests captured significantly more predators than traps placed in
guarded nests. Bluegills( 3-12 cm total length)w ere the most abundant nest predators Pumpkinseed Lepomis gibbosus (7• -11 cm),largemouth bass M icropterus salmoides(4- 5 cm),and whitefin
shiners Notropis niveus(5 -6 cm) also were nest predators. Nest preparation by male bluegills
exposed coarse gravel( 8-32 mm diameter)and pebbles(3 2-64 mm) in nest substrate and removed particles smaller than 2 mm. Particles larger than 8 mm provided suitable interstitial
space to accommodate bluegill larvae. Survival of larvae was directly correlated with the proportion
of coarse substrate in the nest.

Gotcha EWEST, Thanks. I have so many cmbg now I need not worry. As a matter of fact they are getting stunted growth there are so many. Largest I ever catch are 8 1/2 inch and weigh about 8-10 ounces. Only stocked 50 lmb in 2 acres.

Do you have LMB reproduction to 10 inches ? If so the LMB will catch up over time. Then BG condition will improve and you will have to watch for LMB condition to go down. LMB/BG ponds are like balancing on a knife edge to maintain balance.

Balance? Ain't it the truth? I have had to add yoy lmb the last two years due to no lmb reproduction to 10". Large numbers of forage can be detrimental to lmb reproduction. I did not know that in the beginning. I know it now

This past spring would have been my first lmb spawn. I know not if I have any YOY from that spawn. Everything I catch right now is 14 inch or larger though I don't fish for my bass much because I only stocked 50 in 2 acres.Tracy, my water is starting to clear up just since we had that freeze the other day. About 14 inch visibility on the sechi dish. Best I have seen it in a while.

I'm having the same problem. Here I have been mostly thinking of producing forage for the last few years, and yet it is my lack of LMB recruitment that is the problem.

My BG have also "stalled out" in size because of what I feel are excess numbers along with not enough LMB to keep them in check. Have removed several hundred in the 6-8" range to reduce BG numbers, but I think it is likely an exercise in futility. I think the next course of action is to raise some LMB up to size in my forage pond and release them into the main pond to help with the BG control.

Blows me away is with all the thousands of excess cnbg, my 50 lmb are still only right at 100% RW. I would have thought they would all be fat butterballs!!

snrub how about seining out a bunch of the extra BG ? In some cases to many BG or other lepomis leads to no LMB reproduction.

That is probably a good idea that will not get done Eric.

There is one side of the 3 acre pond that would relatively lend itself to seining as it is about the only place the bank and lessened structure would allow. Something I will keep in mind for next spring. Seems like if I stay around 3# per acre per day or less I have little water quality problem. The year I was feeding 5-6# the water got a little "thick" to suit my taste.

I don't mind having lots of BG as they are easy and fun to catch, but it just seems like it is hard to get many of them above about 8" with so many of them. I could feed them quite a bit more and help, but then with the amount of watershed and flow through I have (or lack thereof part of the year) the water quality issue comes up.

My 1/20th acre forage pond is getting too many GSF in it anyway (caught 4 more 7" ones last night and been trapping out 1.5" fingerlings) so my current thinking for an interesting foray into fish rearing is to put about 100 fingerling LMB in next spring, raise them through the summer, start catching them out through next fall and the spring of 19 and transferring them to the main pond, then later that fall pump the forage pond down, seine it to remove remaining desirable fish (RES, GS and the rest of the LMB that I could not catch) and nuke it. Let it stay dry and refill over the winter to stock again the next spring.

I waited too late (fish truck has already made our last run for the season) as my intention was to put the LMB in this fall. I think it will have to wait till spring now. The GSF will probably get a certain amount of the LMB fingerlings, but I can fish and trap this 1/20th acre pond heavily and get the GSF numbers pretty low. Can't ever get all of them but I have got it to the point that it becomes exceedingly hard to catch one. At least that is what I thought till last night,

I did catch one 15" LMB the other day which was encouraging. I had stocked 100 fingerlings last fall in hopes some would make it without getting eaten (after all, there is plenty of BG for the existing bass to eat) and the one I caught would have been about the right size for being stocked a year ago. I do not see huge numbers of small BG around the edge. Just healthy numbers. I just seem to have a huge population of the 6-7".

Maybe I just need to fish and fillet some more.

Population management has many parts. We tend to focus more on adding fish to counteract a perceived problem. Often a better course is to focus on total mortalities. It is an easier approach. Just take out the right # , type and size of fish to go the other direction. The end result of adding to many fish either through addition or failure to harvest (catch , seine , trap etc) to augment natural morts is to cause water quality and fish health problems (poor condition or disease). Removing small to med sized BG may be a better option. Management is about using all the tools to reach a goal.

snrub, when u talk of water quality issues, are you speaking of too much green water or dense plankton growth? if so, I thought you used dye? Did the dye not reduce plankton growth and keep your visibility where u wanted it? I have had two really dense blooms this year and have thought of your black dye and how that might be the way I may have to go this coming late spring. I am a little concerned the dye could hurt my TFS population but you don't seem to have problems supporting bg fry survival using the dye. Right now I am trying out BioCycle to assist in reducing sunlight penetration but it's too early to tell if it is working. Right now I have the worst visibility I have ever had and so far it has just seemed to slow the fishing (catching) down

100% RW is good. And it's not about how many cnbg but how many in the NEEDED forage size. I'm not all that smart, its something Todd Overton passed along to me. My 14" lmb need up to 4" bg and not the bigger than 4" or larger bg. That was a problem at my place year before last. To many 5" and better and not so many 3 to 4". The size I really needed. Sorry snrub did not mean to hijack here.

You don't have to be sorry to me. If you hijacked me I already hijacked the original topic of the thread so I think we both are guilty.

Eric thanks for those insights and I am on it. Caught some more 6-7" BG and a few GSF tonight that went into the fillet pen for later processing. Will continue to remove BG in the size class I have excess numbers and maybe the LMB will catch a good spawn year next spring and get better established.

Tracy I did not use any dye this year as I did not seem to need it. I had a good planktonic algae bloom fairly early that kept my FA in check so I never added the dye. From what I have learned from the experts is that if a person uses dye for FA control, use it very early in the season but do not add any later in the season if fish production is the goal. The reasoning is you do not want the dye reducing algae production at the time fish are spawning and the fry need the food chain doing well. Here is my experience with dye for anyone wanting to read about it. I have a whole case of dye on hand, but I did not use it this year. Hopefully I will not need it again next year also.

FA thread at the post where my pond dye use starts

Put in my bluegill spawning bed today. 4 yards of small river rock in what should be 3 to 5 feet of water. Landscape fabric beneath gravel. Chose a gravel larger than pea to increase the spaces between the stones.

Wasn't initially planning to add beds, bluegill will breed anywhere, But Bob Lusk is rubbing off. Optimal spawning habitat should yield lots more forage bluegill for the bass.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3KA2bQhDRvBiAuwO2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JKCcK92fWH7NK9AH3

I wonder if the young adult & normal adult BG will be able to create bowl shapes as spawning beds in gravel that large. As the BG get large they should be able to better move the gravel into depression shapes. Initially I think some of the BG will use the beds made by the bass who spawn before BG. BG may not need to have much of a depression shape for a successful nest?

This thread of spawning bed info went into the Archives in the topic Growing Some Big Bluegill.

Scholarly works are lacking, but 8 - 32mm and half dollar sized (30+mm), are the sizes considered optimal. There was a paper that provided the 8-32mm number out here, but the link seems to have gone dead.

I don't think the BG will have a problem pushing these around.

The key to spawning success seems to be to provide shelter between the stones for eggs and yolk-attached fry.

Role of Male Parental Care in Survival of
Larval Bluegills
MARK B. BAIN AND LOUIS A. HELFRICH
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Science•
Virginia Polytechinc Institute and State U niversity
Blacksburg, Virginia 24061

Abstract
Mortality of larval bluegills Lepomis macrochirus from predation was measured in 56 nests
guarded by males and 21 nests from which the male guard was removed. Mortality was s ignificantly greater in unguarded nests(median= 68%)than in guardian nests (median= 14%).Fish
traps placed in unguarded nests captured significantly more predators than traps placed in
guarded nests. Bluegills( 3-12 cm total length)w ere the most abundant nest predators Pumpkinseed Lepomis gibbosus (7• -11 cm),largemouth bass M icropterus salmoides(4- 5 cm),and whitefin
shiners Notropis niveus(5 -6 cm) also were nest predators. Nest preparation by male bluegills
exposed coarse gravel( 8-32 mm diameter)and pebbles(3 2-64 mm) in nest substrate and removed particles smaller than 2 mm. Particles larger than 8 mm provided suitable interstitial
space to accommodate bluegill larvae. Survival of larvae was directly correlated with the proportion
of coarse substrate in the nest.


Some points of interest:

Our data from
Virginia implicated juvenile bluegills as the major
predators on bluegill larvae, followed in importance
by pumpkinseed. Dominey (1981)
drew the same conclusions from a New York....


In addition to direct protection afforded larval
bluegills by nest-guarding males, nest preparation
by the male parent influenced survival
of larvae in Lake Caroline. The availability of
suitable nesting substrate has been recognized
as a major factor affecting reproductive success
of centrarchid fishes (Breder 1936; Kramer and
Smith 1962; Muncy et al. 1979).

In laboratory observationss,
coarse particles provided suitable interstitial
space to accommodate yolk-sac bluegill larvae.
That coarse substrate may function as protective
shelter for larvae was supported by field
data: ....


Although
other factors undoubtedly influence
mortality of tested larvae, our data suggest that
predation, particularly intraspecific predation
(cannibalism), can be a major cause of early
bluegill mortality.




Fishshocker
Junior Member

Registered: 20/03/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Ackerman, MS New to this forum, but let me put my 2 cents in. Have been placing gravel to enhance spawning for warmwater fish, mostly Bream/Bass for 25 years and this is what I have observed: A. Bream prefer gravel as a spawning substrate. Why gravel?? Gravel allows for water to circulate throughout the egg mass as the guardian male fans the nest. This in turn carries the oxygen necessary for the survival of the individual eggs. Better circulation = better hatch from each nest = better fisheries dynamics. Washed pea gravel is probably best, but also the most expensive. Washed river rock #57 grade is also good and less costly. Washed rounded rock allows for better circulation. Sand, "white" rock, lime rock all tend to "lock up" and restrict the circulation of water/oxygen to the bottom of the egg mass necessary for egg survival in that part of the egg mass.
B. Thickness of the layer of spawning gravel will thin or "pancake" out after several years and eventually becomes useless. The mechanical action of fanning the beds makes the gravel migrate out over time. Counter this by boxing in the gravel with 1x12 inch cypress boards, filling in the outside of the boards with dirt. Looks like a shaved off pitcher's mound with gravel recessed in the ground. Dirt shoulders keep the hooks from snagging as easily.
C. Avoid sloping ground, level sites have the greatest use.
D. Dispurse the sites according to depth and aspect to allow for greater overall use throughout the spawning season.
E. Avoid locating sites adjacent to incoming streams, or tribs, they end up being silted in.

The gravel is now submerged and the cnbg have built dinner plate sized nests. They like it.

Can you post a pic ?