I want to have more shallow water structure for young BG to survive longer before getting eaten by LMB. After looking at some of the ideas I had an idea to make one reasonably affordable and functional. I'll be interested in your "verdicts" on the functional part.
I started with a 1' square concrete form using 1x4s and plywood from around the house (NOTE to self-Use Screws, NOT nails as you will need to disassembly form to get concrete out!):
Then cut a piece of mdf a little bigger than the form and drilled about 30-40 holes in it. I put 4 8" legs on it to keep it about the concrete form:
Then cut 50' of 1/2" irrigation tubing into about 30 20" sections:
I mixed about 1/3 of a 40# bag of concrete and put that in the form. Then put the "holey" mdf above it, then insert the 30 pieces of pipe into the concret through the mdf:
After about 4 days of curing I pulled the MDF over the tubing which was not as easy as I thought. One piece of irrigation tubing is very flexible but trying to straigten 30 simultaneously is a different story. A little back and forth action on the mdf piece worked well.
I tried to take the concrete out of the form which also turned out to be difficult because I used nails in the form instead of screws. I broke off a piece of the concrete because I was too rough trying to get it out of the form. I've already changed the form to use screws:
I sank him in about 3' of water near one of the feeders which (hopefully) will draw the little-uns.
In hindsight, the things I will change:
1) Use screws, not nails in the form
2) Only use about 20-25 pieces of piping; I think 30 is cluttering over-kill and makes pulling the mdf off the form difficult
I estimate that each "bush" costs about $5.00; $2 for the concrete and $3 for the tubing.
Are these "bushes" significant to make a difference without adding 100 of them?
How well do the tubes stick in the concrete? If you tried to pick it up by a couple of them would they pull out?
They should work great. Try using only mortar mix with sand/cement , no stone and a little bit thicker. 100 would be the best $500.00 you spend!
Add other materials like wood, willow etc. for even more variety. Well done!
Thanks, all. It weighs about 15 lbs and I can pick it up by a few of the tubes. I haven't tried to pick it up by one.
peepaw, that's a good idea on the mortar. Besides your note, it would make it easier to stick the tubes all the way through the mold without hitting rocks.
We use a mixture of type S,N and I cements to create the deathgrip bond. No slippage and harder than a rock.
Each time put double thick plastic bags or visqueen in the form. Then add cement. No need to take form apart. Can also use left over plastic plant pots from the yard and garden store. Drill holes in the side for extra limbs and support in the pic below.
They should work. Xmas trees on their side are a lot easier and have the right interstitial space for small BG
A draft angle of a couple degrees will help tremendously on your molds.
Staying with PVC will improve DO and never needs replacing
Many people don't want plastic in their water - natural only.
I have seen a lot of artificial structure and never seen any that is as good as xmas trees for shallow water protection of small BG.
Explain " as good" for us. What makes them better? We know the disadvantages, certainly no question they work great while they last, but what data proves better?
The various DNR fisheries biologists we work with for states like Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Alabama, Florida, New York, New Mexico, Illinois naming just a few, are all utilizing artificial habitat for the noted benefits. State hatcheries are installing artificial habitat in their grow ponds.
If trees are better, why would they spenrd the money to install artificial, or is that just your opinion?
Why after installing all kinds of pumps, hoses, aerators, filters, etc. Would some folks say:
"No plastic in my water"?
We drink, eat and sleep on various forms of plastics everywhere in our lives.
We don't support making more plastics, just utilizing what has been discarded and put to good use to benefit the fish and save landfill space.
I think artificial habitat is the best option we have at our disposal.
There is overwhelming scientific proof that rotting organic materials don't help water quality or fish health and growth rates.
We have always recommended a variety of habitat materials for the fish to choose from. In no way, do we feel adding artificial habitat products for shallow fry protection and development is inferior and "not as good".
After all, that tree simply gets covered in slime (food) and settles back flat on the bottom as it decomposes. Time to get some more cinder blocks,rope,cement..........and fishing lures.
The bush we started talking about here looks a heck of a lot like that tree, It will work every bit as good!
I've used both and find no appreciable difference in functionality. Oak is the exception regarding "natural". I'll certainly never use that again.
Dave, is it because of the tannins? I have lot's of dead trees down right now and I was considering an Oak/Cedar mix for some brush piles. My water's low right now, so adding structure for the Spring re-fill is on my to do list.
JKB,
I had to go to google to find out what "draft angle" was but it is a good idea.
Eric,
I am a little concerned about putting the Xmas trees because they catch lures almost as well as small fish; hehe. I'll pick out a good spot and try it.
A general question to all... Would you rather place the small fish habitat near a feeder so the fish can access the food or away from the feeder?
Yep Al, it's the tannins. Years ago I built a pond and had to clear lots of post oaks. I thought it would be a neat idea to have the dozer push them to the bottom of the pond for structure. We got a good rain and the water turned black. I bought some BG, CC and, fatheads. They died within hours. Then I bought some crawdads. They lasted about a day. More rain came and nothing changed. The water was still lethal. I added enough chlorine to kill everything in a couple of Olympic sized swimming pools. It lightened a little but was still lethal to fish. I pumped it almost dry and blew the motors on 2 pumps. I quit pumping in July and the summer took care of the rest. A year later, it was OK after drying.
Lusk told me that they will not effect all water the same way depending on alkalinity, etc. To test, cut a piece of wood and toss it into a bucket of the pond water. If it stays clear, it will be OK. However, I'll stay with cedar and plastic.
Thanks Dave. The oaks had been dead for a year before I took them down, but I'll test and see. PVC and cedars sounds better.
I should have figured this out myself. When I soak oak for use on the smoker, the water turns color after only a few minutes.
I think I'll offer some thoughts on this thread. As a professional fisheries biologist, without a dog in this hunt, I'll tell you what I see.
The very best fish attractors for small fish (the backbone of the foodchain in bass/bluegill ponds) is dense aquatic plants along the shallow shoreline. Bushy pondweed, American pondweed...other species of pondweed, are fabulous for small fish. Not only do these plants provide cover, they provide a variety of substrates for food for tiny fish.
I've used lots and lots of Christmas trees as well as native cedar as structure in barren lakes. That stuff is excellent to attract big numbers of small fish. I can't tell you how many times I've driven my electrofishing boat over the top of a Christmas tree or a cedar and just watch the little fish boil out of it. This stuff attracts many more small fish than any of the artificial attractors I've ever seen. While artificial attractors are good...and will attract fish...I've not seen the same numbers of fish there as I do in the aquatic plants along the shorelines of ponds.
The biggest down-side to Christmas trees and cedar is that they deteriorate over a fairly short time. A Christmas tree loses its needles within a few months. Small twigs are gone in a year. By the end of year 2, the next smallest size branches are gone. By year 8, the trunk and main branches are left.
Artificial structures seem to work best in bunches to attract medium-sized and larger fish. Some structures grow biofilm and algaes, but some don't.
For a pond without cover or structure, use a variety of media to get the best results. And, be picky about where you put it. Here's my best tip of the day about placing structure or cover. Fish prefer to live in a community joined by travel paths. Think "community" rather than single stands of structure, randomly placed around a pond or lake.
Thanks Bob, great advice as always.
Anyone try cheap fake Christmas trees for longevity? Or do the plastic "needles" make a mess? I would bet they last a lot longer than the real thing.
Peepaw I was addressing one particular aspect of structure , protection of small young BG. in shallow water While we use a host of structure ideas (see the structure archive) in our lakes there are lots of people who want their ponds 100% natural. There are 2 basic purposes for structure in ponds. Concentrating fish to catch them and protecting small fish from predation.
I will point out that the forum's job is to provide the best info possible in an unbiased manner for all the readers to choose. I am not anti- artificial structure but instead was talking about a specific structure use.
I have long avoided posting info negative to artificial structure from the studies ( and will not now) because it may be harmful to advertisers who sell it. As both Bob (above) and I (in other threads and in my PB Conv. presentation) have noted artificial structure can be a good option and will work well in many situations. But there are other options as well and it is our job to point that out to forum members. I trust that answers any questions you may have.
DJS - "A general question to all... Would you rather place the small fish habitat near a feeder so the fish can access the food or away from the feeder."
Both as it depends on the goal. If the purpose is to protect small fish from predation then near where they are born (near the beds). If to help catch fish then where you will be fishing. See the structure archive text for the types of places to consider. We do put some structure (complex) near our feeders.
Anyone try cheap fake Christmas trees for longevity? Or do the plastic "needles" make a mess? I would bet they last a lot longer than the real thing.
I don't like the idea of small plastic pieces degrading or floating around the BOW, but that's just me. I like the idea of using PVC as it's meant to be submerged in water...not sure about ye olde Walmart Xmas tree!
I do know they were making weighted plastic weeds designed for the YP ice fisherman a few years back, believe it or not. One was supposed to drill holes in a circular pattern around their fishing holes and the weeds were said to attract YP.
Anyone try cheap fake Christmas trees for longevity? Or do the plastic "needles" make a mess? I would bet they last a lot longer than the real thing.
I don't like the idea of small plastic pieces degrading or floating around the BOW, but that's just me. I like the idea of using PVC as it's meant to be submerged in water...not sure about ye olde Walmart Xmas tree!
Me neither, but have seen them used, garland as well. I would think it would "clog" full of algae pretty quick, closing much of the available space for fish to utilize. The bare frame would be cool but the wire wouldn't last forever and it would snag like a banshie!
That product for ice fishing is kinda cool. Portable, designed to install and remove when you leave. I bet it works well in waters with little cover. Check it out
Quote: Dr. Dave Willis of the SDSU Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences tracked the progress of the research. “I was not surprised by the yellow perch using them,” he said. “I was surprised by the sheer number of egg masses on the Reel Weeds™.”
Willis said the biggest benefit of Reel Weeds™ is the product’s ease of use, ease of removal and longevity.
Reel weeds Ledredge outdoors
I do know they were making weighted plastic weeds designed for the YP ice fisherman a few years back, believe it or not. One was supposed to drill holes in a circular pattern around their fishing holes and the weeds were said to attract YP.
About 5 years ago I cut down a large(make that huge) cedar tree and drug it, with my tractor, and a long heavy rope into the water next to the dam. After a couple of good rains it was submerged and working like a champ. But, it never collected any algae. Then some heavy winds came and the darn thing floated to the other end of the pond. It stopped and hung up in some shallows of my favorite fishing spot. So, I got my jon boat and tied onto it to drag it back. No way. I had to let out all of the rope and manually drag it.
I was wishing I had used some weighted plastic.
I've used both and find advantages and disadvantages to both.
Placed strategically along fish travel routes, as Bob said, I prefer plastics. For something placed along the bank, into the water, I prefer natural. But then, my water levels vary a lot during the summer.
Eric,
Thanks for the opinion on where to place. I saw a small plane crashed in Jackson; anywhere near you?
Here's a couple of layouts we put together for a few clients.
The Kelsay job was to add 25% of the 20% of surface area of the 6.5 acre pond in artificial habitat. The remaining 75% of the suggested 20% was installed with plants, boulders, rock/rubble and large wood. The goal was to add just over 1.3 acres of habitat, or 20% of the surface area as Bob suggests.
The smaller one acre pond in Texas, wanted all artificial habitat, with no weeds or aquatic plants. Note the travel paths from shallow to deep. It is based on 25% of the surface area in habitat.
Peepaw can you add those attachments as a pic so I can add them to the structure archive? Good plans btw.
DJS the plane crash was at the old small airport not near me and not near the commercial airport.
Three years on this site and I'm still a computer idiot/dork. I think I have them in the gallery now. Thanks.
Way too much scattered structure for me - I like CONCENTRATED structure in KEY areas - with balanced cover.
I don't want to have to hunt for my fish in a pond,...
That No Fishing sign is pretty tempting...if you found your friend TJ sitting on the bench, fishing, some afternoon would you:
1. Call the Sheriff
2. Toss me off the dock
3. Bring two beers and start fishing with me
I dig photos of Eric's ponds...beautiful setting. Thanks for sharing!
ewest, I do the same thing, but use 10 foot metal conduit as the stake. They are very cheap and the Christmas trees will slide down the pipe very easily when waterlogged. I just tie a short piece of nylon rope to the tree with a loop knot on the end and slip the loop knot over the pipe. With the metal conduit pipe, you can drive it into the lake bottom with a fence post driver. Each year I add a couple of trees to each structure. Don't have to worry about the stake rotting.
TJ, you wouldn't be fishing, you'd be studying the age class structure of the fish in the pond, right?
TJ the only people who get to fish at the feeder for BG when the feeders are operating are small children or others who have not caught a fish. You might fit in one of those categories.
Once in a while when mgt dictates harvest or sampling (pics or condition)we allow fishing for BG at the feeder.
From this location we once sampled and some relatives (4 – 1 adult and 3 10-12 yr olds 2 who had never fished) using worms were catching about 1 BG per min for about 10 mins. I got out the Stubby Steve’s and they started catching BG as fast as they (I) could unhook them and put it back in the water. On 4 Stubby Steve’s pellets (one each) they caught 121 BG in 15 mins. Then we stopped because my hands were torn up as I was the hook remover , pic taker and condition analyst.
Bill that is a good idea !!
We fish the feeders with no negative effects - all in the name of responsible "management"
All female CNBG between 5 and 8 inches are removed, resulting in exceptional male gowth.
Lots of fun to hook into a BG HSB - that's what it's all about for me...
Hmmm...addressed like a true attorney choosing his response carefully - neither commits to nor confirms anything! Sounds like a push off the dock to me, but maybe followed by a towel and a beer? Not like it's the first dock I've fallen off...I like my chances.
Here's a couple of layouts we put together for a few clients.
The Kelsay job was to add 25% of the 20% of surface area of the 6.5 acre pond in artificial habitat. The remaining 75% of the suggested 20% was installed with plants, boulders, rock/rubble and large wood. The goal was to add just over 1.3 acres of habitat, or 20% of the surface area as Bob suggests.
The smaller one acre pond in Texas, wanted all artificial habitat, with no weeds or aquatic plants. Note the travel paths from shallow to deep. It is based on 25% of the surface area in habitat.
Thoughts -
On Kelsey project: Various pondweed cultivars will be introduced into NE ponds - Sago, American, Horned, etc. which will, depending on the water clarity, likely grow around the perimeter of the entire pond 3-10' out. One thing folks forget is that aquatic vegetation is "structure/habitat" - and unless there's a intensive management plan it should be added into the 20% formula, right? Just a thought...
On the TX project: Owner wants zero vegetation...hope he realizes that's impossible without heavy duty management plan. Did he stock hundreds of GC or does he own DuPont -
? Seems an improbable expectation, I guess you just shrug your shoulders and do what he contracts you to do...guy's gotta make a living after all.
PS: I really like the concept [utilizing post consumer product] and design of this PVC structure - superior IMO to globes or the standard trees with 1" PVC branches - which is what I've used, but because it was free/cheap/readily available.
TJ we fish for LMB at the feeders. It works well. Here is an example. This fish was caught at a feeder which is about 10 feet to the left of the camera position. We would not throw you in the lake but this fish might drag you in.
Here's a couple of layouts we put together for a few clients.
The Kelsay job was to add 25% of the 20% of surface area of the 6.5 acre pond in artificial habitat. The remaining 75% of the suggested 20% was installed with plants, boulders, rock/rubble and large wood. The goal was to add just over 1.3 acres of habitat, or 20% of the surface area as Bob suggests.
The smaller one acre pond in Texas, wanted all artificial habitat, with no weeds or aquatic plants. Note the travel paths from shallow to deep. It is based on 25% of the surface area in habitat.
Thoughts -
On Kelsey project: Various pondweed cultivars will be introduced into NE ponds - Sago, American, Horned, etc. which will, depending on the water clarity, likely grow around the perimeter of the entire pond 3-10' out. One thing folks forget is that aquatic vegetation is "structure/habitat" - and unless there's a intensive management plan it should be added into the 20% formula, right? Just a thought...
You bet, that's how I understand it. The 20% rule is a combination of all materials, including and especially the plants. Just under 15,000 sq. feet of artificial habitat was installed, about 35,000 sq. feet of vegetation and 9000 sq. feet of logs and boulders. The vegetation will increase over time.
In a best case scenario, a healthy weed line grows annually, without getting out of control. As ewest and Bob point out, most productive for fry and forage protection. I'll guess Chris had about 60% of the remaining habitat installed in aquatic vegetation. The boulders and logs add up as well to put him in good shape for now.
On the TX project: Owner wants zero vegetation...hope he realizes that's impossible without heavy duty management plan. Did he stock hundreds of GC or does he own DuPont -
? Seems an improbable expectation, I guess you just shrug your shoulders and do what he contracts you to do...guy's gotta make a living after all.
Agreed and discussed with client. "Least weeds as possible" was the request. They opted to install 25% of the surface area, or 11,000 sq. feet of artificial habitat.
Keep your eyes open, the material can be found in many places. The intention has always been to re-use/recycle what is safe for the fish and water. No different than old pallets, buckets, pipes, wood...stuff that will sit in a corner, or get tossed out anyway.
PS: I really like the concept [utilizing post consumer product] and design of this PVC structure - superior IMO to globes or the standard trees with 1" PVC branches - which is what I've used, but because it was free/cheap/readily available.
ewest, I do the same thing, but use 10 foot metal conduit as the stake. They are very cheap and the Christmas trees will slide down the pipe very easily when waterlogged. I just tie a short piece of nylon rope to the tree with a loop knot on the end and slip the loop knot over the pipe. With the metal conduit pipe, you can drive it into the lake bottom with a fence post driver. Each year I add a couple of trees to each structure. Don't have to worry about the stake rotting.
Great idea, stakes stay and gives you same spot to keep building/holding the fish.
TJ we fish for LMB at the feeders. It works well. Here is an example. This fish was caught at a feeder which is about 10 feet to the left of the camera position. We would not throw you in the lake but this fish might drag you in.
That is an amazing fish...I can't believe the health. It deserves a front cover, I just wish my man E was holding it!
We have played a lot with different shapes and designs of habitat layouts. One cool tip we found out was when we run a line of habitat from north to south. Depending on the sun's location, the bass would prefer to stay on the east or west shaded side. Casting along the shade line is a killer tactic. Nothing new, just fun to install a shape and know where the fish will be at a given time. Pockets, points and inside turns are the "spots on the spot" when targeting predators.
That's interesting. So, in the morning, cast to the West side of structure and in the afternoon cast to the East side. Makes sense but I had never thought of it.
Yes we design and place structure to provide shade all day so the LMB can move and stay in the shadows during warm weather. That is a good place to find them. Also for winter fishing we provide structure east to west so they can stay in the sun and in the structure and out of the wind (quiet coves) and next to shore opposite the prevailing wind. Northwest wind blows plankton to the SE shore and small fish follow to feed. An E-W line of structure just off that bank in deeper water in the sun is the idea.
Eric,
Do you add new trees every year or wait a few years for the originals to disintregrate?
Also, how deep is the water where you put your trees; 3-4 ft?
Thanks,
Dan
I add trees every year as needed. Not all locations need trees every year.
I tie the trees on the post so they hang at certain depths and angles to cover the area wanted. After a year (or at replacement/renewal time) I cut the ropes (trot line string) and let them sink. Then replace to match conditions. Over time you have a cone from bottom to surface (or as deep as you want based on rope length on the still hanging trees). The bottom trees which have defoliated have more room (fewer and bigger branches) for larger fish while the new ones on top have thick branches for small fish.
Water in that feeder structure location is about 9 ft. Water at feeder on dock is about 5 ft.
We have about 100 such tree structures like that over 3 lakes. They range from about 4 ft to 25 ft of water. This does not include the shallow water ones which are not on posts but staked down (trees on their side) about 30 - 50 feet from the BG beds.
That is only part of the structure plan as we have all types - pallets , rock piles , tree tops , artificial pot structures , platforms and more.
eric,
I was thinking of putting the xmas trees in about 4 ft. of water that is reachable by one of the feeders and only about 20-25 ft from the two BG spawning areas that I know are there. Is that satisfactory or would they be better in deeper water?
That should work fine. I would use skinny xmas trees so they don't stick up out of the water. They last much longer if they stay under water.
I add trees every year as needed. Not all locations need trees every year.
I tie the trees on the post so they hang at certain depths and angles to cover the area wanted. After a year (or at replacement/renewal time) I cut the ropes (trot line string) and let them sink. Then replace to match conditions. Over time you have a cone from bottom to surface (or as deep as you want based on rope length on the still hanging trees). The bottom trees which have defoliated have more room (fewer and bigger branches) for larger fish while the new ones on top have thick branches for small fish.
Eric, I've decided to try this after reading this thread, because it makes perfect sense to me.
What I'm interested is knowing, is have you ever tried to purchase complete lots of unsold Christmas trees? Was out and about this morning and the stands are already going up, and I'm sure there will be leftover trees. There always are. I can't imagine they'd cost much, and in fact they may be free for the taking.
I have cedars, but they're to large to accomplish shallow water brush piles.
Fire...could you just cut the tops of the larger cedars?
I could, but they're pretty leggy. I was thinking the bagged Christmas trees would be more compact and stack better.
There's an abandoned Christmas tree farm not a 1/2 a mile from me, but I've been unable make contact with the owner. If I had a little evil-doer in me I would just cut the dead ones out. But that's a no-no for me. A property line is a property line, whether there's a fence or not.
Branches of Cedars tied together could work too, but you're right I'm sure those 6-8' fir and scotch pines are perfect for what you want to do. Agree with your property line assessment...you are in TX, after all! If Cedars are as invasive as they are up here I'm sure any rancher would be very grateful for you removing as many 3-6' Cedars from his pasture as you want. Do you have Eastern Red Cedars down there?
I'm sure we do, but to be honest, my arborist skills are pretty limited. I know an Oak when the acorn hits me in the head.
Cedars are everywhere here, just not sure what type.
I'll try those bundled limbs too. That sounds good, thanks.
Maybe tying them together with wahr would work.
Cut the cedars into sections. I have used them.
I take the trailer and drive to the xmas tree recycling locations the city sets up. I could easily get 500 trees if needed. Never bought one to put in the lake. That also lets me pick and choose (size , shape , length etc) the ones I need.
Also people put them on the curb after xmas so you can pick them up that way.
All sounds good. Thanks guys.
Will the chemicals that have been sprayed on these trees hurt fish!
I have never seen any negative reaction from the fish. Just the opposite within about a week from putting them in they have fish all around them. Bryozoans grow in them readily and they are very chemical sensitive.
The tree pictured is newly added - see the brown needles – notice the bryozoans
Bryozoans? Every time I think I know all I need to about ponds, I learn something new.
Thanks for posting the pic.
