Pond Boss
Posted By: DocFish Crappie experiment - 02/11/10 11:23 PM
Ok I am working with Greg too start a crappie pond in a 3/4 acre pond I have we are starting the project together as an experiment. I know there is a lot of info against crappie stocking but I want to prove that scientifically thiscan be done with success.
I am going to start with a good areator tons of Golden shiners and G minnows and about 200 crapie (black) . I thought about the Hy Tech spec (hybrid )crappie but not sure about this fish anyone have any experience with them?
Im going to use a few huge LMB out of my larger pond and Hybrid stripers as predators.
The pond has a lot of aquatic plants so im also going to add som grass carp .
Ive already been in my workshop buildind some nice structure to sink and hopefully all goes well.


Posted By: Cisco Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 12:46 AM
Keep us posted Doc, I've wanted to try myself but have only heard bad about a crappie pond. I'd like to have one.
Posted By: Ric Swaim Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 01:25 AM
With Greg helping I'll be putting my money on ya'll making it work.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 01:50 AM
You can't fool mother nature but for a while you may be able to out manage her. Read the crappie threads here for a better chance. Let us know what is going on as it happens. Collectively we may have a better chance.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 04:17 AM
I'd make sure the LMB you stock are all one sex to prevent them from reproducing and add a few new ones each year to make up for mortality. Get the vegetation cut back a bit and manually remove as many crappie as you can yourself and I can see you growing some very nice crappies.
Posted By: bobad Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 12:38 PM
I wouldn't worry about overpopulation. A 3/4 acre pond is very easy to fish out.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 01:51 PM
I agree Bobad and wonder if all the extra management effort is worth a few nice Crappie a year. Sure could be to some people. I do think keeping a balanced (good condition) population of crappie , LMB and HSB and forage might be a real test of our collective abilities.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 02:20 PM
If yall and doc want I can post my rec. here. Ideally I would stock the forage first then crappie then hsb instead we are doing it all together. I think he is willing to try this knowing it is experimental.

I may try to talk him out of any lmb unless like Cj says we sex them 100% to be female. I think we can control the crappie repro with hsb.

My questiosn is with a forage base of golden shiners and fathead minnows and a feeder for hsb do you think that will yield good crappie growth or do you think adding bluegil is a good idea? I got my opinion and want to hear yours.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 02:49 PM
Greg have you seen the SEP info on their success with this approach. Might want to call Jeff. They use FH , TShad , crappie and HSB. IMO you will need to use several approaches at different times to adjust the plan to what is happing in the water. There are too many variables for any one size fits all plan to work. I would hold off on the BG at first. You may need to limit feeding during the period just before the crappie spawn and for several mths after to force the HSB and GShiners to go after the crappie.


Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 04:57 PM
Yes Eric I remember the talk at PB conf and spoke with slipke about it. POnd is small and shallow so bad combo for tshad as you know so that is out. That was my thinking on adding bluegill later if deemed neccesary. Good call on no feed after crappie spawn. thanks
Posted By: HoneyHole Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 05:33 PM
I don't think BG will be much if any benefit for you. In fact I believe it will only add another variable to the equation for you to ponder down the road when trying to decide if this is a good formula or not. I agree about Tshad not working in a pond that size, so would stick with FHM and GSH for forage. I don't think there is any way around having to add more forage at times down the road and would expect to have to do a lot more population evaluating in this kind of set up vs. a BG/LMB pond. The only self-regulating crappie ponds that I have seen on a regular basis have been deep borrow pit type ponds that the river floods in every few years or so.

-HH
Posted By: RC51 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 09:06 PM
I also thought we were told at the PB conference not to put HSB in any pond smaller than 3 acres? Or did I hear that wrong? I know this is an expeirment but isn't that what the gentleman said at the PBC?
Posted By: otto Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 10:36 PM
When we are talking about a small pond, good or bad there will not be much lost. Lets try it.

Otto
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/12/10 11:29 PM
I believe you heard that wrong.
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 02/13/10 12:37 AM
That is exactly how I feel about the situation. I have a larger pond that is the prototypical LMB BG etc fishery.
I got cabin fever so bad this year with the winter weather that I said what the heck . I went to Lake Lanier with a local guide (Doug Younblood ) yesterday and we nailed 70 black crappie in 3 and 1/2 hours. They were still biting when we left. Water temp. was 43 45.5 by noon. I said man if only I could do this in my front yard! Thus the crappie pond ideaa. I am willing to work with greg and spend my "monthly" allowance on the experiment! Besides I am a doc my whole life is an experiment. I like trend setting so I am going for it. Worse case scenario,.. we drain the pond and start over. Best case scenario I have a productive crappie fishery and my own data on starting one ;)!
ill get you all some pics soon. It snowed in Alanta tday and I got some beautiful pics to share, ill also show you the pond.

Thanx for all the wisdom guys!
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment BASS LAKE - 02/13/10 01:12 AM
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Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment BASS LAKE - 02/13/10 01:14 AM


THE CRAPPIE EXPERIMENTAL POND
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment BASS LAKE - 02/13/10 01:28 AM
Beautiful ponds! I am interested to see the results.
Posted By: james holt Re: Crappie experiment - 02/13/10 02:38 AM
Could you plan on dumping fifty pounds of forage each month
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/13/10 11:40 AM
Hey Doc, is this a "practice"?
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 02/13/10 02:02 PM
Go for it ! We will help as much as we can.

HSB can do ok in small ponds. TShad sometimes will not work in small ponds and that is why Greg's thought was to replace them with GShiners. The guy you heard was from SEP which is doing the expirment we were talking about with success. They are using TShad so they may well have said not to try their approach in small ponds with HSB and TShad. That is because of the TShad not the HSB.
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment BASS LAKE - 02/13/10 03:48 PM
Very interested in seeing how this goes too.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Crappie experiment BASS LAKE - 02/14/10 12:34 AM
Hey Doc

Great project - am excited to see the results. I also started a Hybrid crappie project last year - using Magnolia Crappie - BCxWC hybrid - and stocked 150 3-4" with abundant GSH and FH forage base and a 12 6" HSB in a .2 ac pond so the negative impact is minimal should the Crappie overpopluate. Magnolia Crappie offspring are reportedly very inferior and their population is theorhetically easily controlled. I don't have any data to report from my experiment yet, but wanted you to know we seem to share goals. With Greg at the helm and helpful guidance from the forum I think you've put all the odds in your favor.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/14/10 12:36 AM
 Originally Posted By: DocFish
That is exactly how I feel about the situation. I have a larger pond that is the prototypical LMB BG etc fishery.
I got cabin fever so bad this year with the winter weather that I said what the heck . I went to Lake Lanier with a local guide (Doug Younblood ) yesterday and we nailed 70 black crappie in 3 and 1/2 hours. They were still biting when we left. Water temp. was 43 45.5 by noon. I said man if only I could do this in my front yard! Thus the crappie pond ideaa. I am willing to work with greg and spend my "monthly" allowance on the experiment! Besides I am a doc my whole life is an experiment. I like trend setting so I am going for it. Worse case scenario,.. we drain the pond and start over. Best case scenario I have a productive crappie fishery and my own data on starting one ;)!
ill get you all some pics soon. It snowed in Alanta tday and I got some beautiful pics to share, ill also show you the pond.

Thanx for all the wisdom guys!


I really appreciate your passion and willingness to experiment for the benefit of the Pond Boss family!
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Crappie experiment - 02/14/10 04:03 AM
Doc - Are hybrid crappie avaliable to you or Greg?. I would look at the pros and cons of hybrids before stocking any crappie. If hybrid crappie are available why would you not want to use them?

You mentioned feeding pellets. Who are pellets for?

Do you plan on fertilizing the pond?
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 02/15/10 08:36 PM
HI
Greg said we shouldn't use the HYBRIDS.. I remember genetics class back in the day and kind of lean towards the natural selection approach.

No offence with hybridization technique except.... that's all it seems to be to me at this point.. Biology is a non exact science that's why I love it, but you learn from the mistakes of other's.
Greg recommended the black crappie ,...which i pondered as well but .. couldn't refute so ... black crappie it is. I asked him the hybrid /black crappie mix question too ... outcomes are predictable. ....but i am one of those unpredictable types:) what if ???????????

I always hated the fruit fly lab:) Genetics was a "perfect " science that I believed in until my aunt started raising the Pekingese dog's:) lol .. And yes if I wanted I do have supposed access to a hybrid crappie supplier.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/15/10 08:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: DocFish
HI
Greg said we shouldn't use the HYBRIDS.. I remember genetics class back in the day and kind of lean towards the natural selection approach.

No offence with hybridization technique except.... that's all it seems to be to me at this point.. Biology is a non exact science that's why I love it, but you learn from the mistakes of other's.
Greg recommended the black crappie ,...which i pondered as well but .. couldn't refute so ... black crappie it is. I asked him the hybrid /black crappie mix question too ... outcomes are predictable. ....but i am one of those unpredictable types:) what if ???????????

I always hated the fruit fly lab:) Genetics was a "perfect " science that I believed in until my aunt started raising the Pekingese dog's:) lol .. And yes if I wanted I do have supposed access to a hybrid crappie supplier.


The scant research available suggested the hybrid characteristics fit my pond scenario well, but each pond is obviously a different story. GG will lead you well - this I know - and I am anxious to learn how your project moves forward. Please keep us up to date - this is valuable for the forum!


Posted By: otto Re: Crappie experiment - 02/15/10 11:53 PM
This will be of intrest to all of us so please keep us posted.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 12:32 AM
Does the black crappie REALLY have less fecundity than the white?
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 12:38 AM
DD

The only differences I am aware of is WC are more tolerant of turbidity, and BC will focus on Zooplankton as forage more so than the WC. I have HEARD BC fecundity is lower, but have absolutely no experience to back that up. I do personally prefer the BC...but that's not a factor here.
Posted By: HoneyHole Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 02:37 AM
DOCFISH,
I hated the fruit fly lab with a passion also. Your post brings back memories I had tried to forget. Fruit flies are something no college student wants to babysit.

-HH
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 06:11 AM
Interesting info from an Alabama study...

Black crappie Pomoxis nigromaculatus and white crappie P. annularis often experience dramatic variation in year-class strength, making their management difficult. We sought to identify factors influencing age-0 crappie in an effort to better understand their variable recruitment. Toward this end we quantified adult crappie fecundity, zooplankton abundance, growth and survival of larval and postlarval crappie, and weather and hydrologic factors within three lakes of varying trophic state hypereutrophic Lake Weiss, eutrophic Jones Bluff Lake, and mesotrophic Lake Martin. Reproductive crappie in Martin were older, but had lower relative weight (Wr), and lower mean gonadosomatic index (GSI) values than in the other lakes. In Weiss, crappie were youngest and shortest, but had the highest GSI and Wr values. Jones Bluff crappie were longest, but lowest in Wr and intermediate in age and GSI. While both GSI and fecundity were positively correlated with lake productivity, larval crappie density was either unrelated to or inversely related to GSI. Although collected larvae were of similar age and size, larval growth and survival both appeared to be positively correlated with lake productivity. Juvenile crappie in Jones Bluff grew fastest. These results suggest that recruitment may not be limited by adult spawning potential and there may exist a bottleneck during crappie early life stages in less productive lakes. Gear comparisons indicated that bottom trawling and electrofishing were not viable methods for sampling YOY crappie in our lakes, and a neuston net, although effective for capturing age-0 individuals of several species, was only useful for collecting crappie in shallow areas. Trap nets remained the most effective gear for estimating age-0 crappie abundances in the fall, and an experimental small mesh trap net proved effective in capturing smaller fish including age-0 crappie.
Posted By: bobad Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 06:14 PM
Travis,

Around here, it's believed that crappie are creatures of large and "changing" waters, and wait for a flood to spawn. In other words, if they're trapped in a small, clear, unchanging pond, they wait for more advantageous water conditions to spawn.

Not saying I ascribe totally to that theory, but it makes sense to me.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/16/10 06:34 PM
I can understand the thinking behind that as well. I can even see it occurring here in the Mid-Atlantic as well. There is a lot about crappie biology we really don't know. I love catching and eating crappies. I really wish they were more user friendly in smaller ponds. Unfortunately, they stunt badly even in bigger lakes in my area. Not many lakes in my area with decent sized crappie under 1000 acres. Maybe that is partly due to them be too successful at spawning in smaller BOW's and less successful in bigger BOW's?
Posted By: bobad Re: Crappie experiment - 02/17/10 05:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Maybe that is partly due to them be too successful at spawning in smaller BOW's and less successful in bigger BOW's?


I can imagine that in a large BOW, predators gradually increase in number until the crappie are kept in check. In a small BOW, I imagine the predators are highly vulnerable to the crappie. I imagine crappie of all sizes eat everything from eggs right on up to 6" young of the predators. You would be forced to not take out any big LMB, and do plenty of crappie fishing.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment - 02/17/10 06:23 PM
The use of crappies in ponds is such a challenge. My observation is, many ponds that are stocked with crappie are stocked by hands off pond owners. Either they just stock a few adult crappies caught from another BOW or they stock a batch of fingerlings with the bass early on and never manage the pond after. If a pond owner stocked crappies in a pond, and then actively managed it utilizing methods we know could help control their numbers if crappies could be more of a possibility. I have no idea if this idea would work, but if I tried to stock crappies into a pond I would do this. As with northern ponds, the LMB are often stocked before the BG. This is to give them a chance to get some size on them to help control any BG offspring. Well, in the case of crappie, give the bass a 3 or even 4 year jump on the crappie. Wait 3 or 4 years after the bass are stocked in a new pond before adding crappie. But you really have to want crappie in your pond to take that kind of risk... My experience with crappie in ponds is either feast or famine. When they spawn either they don't produce any offspring or they produce way too many... This in it off itself makes crappie so hard to manage is small ponds.
Posted By: bobad Re: Crappie experiment - 02/18/10 05:28 PM
 Quote:
Well, in the case of crappie, give the bass a 3 or even 4 year jump on the crappie. Wait 3 or 4 years after the bass are stocked in a new pond before adding crappie.


Or,,, maybe stock just a few crappie at the same time as stocking the LMB.

I'm watching my crappie nervously. Some of them did spawn last spring, because I accidentally caught some babies in a trap. Those same babies should be ~6" by now, but I haven't caught a single one on hook and line. I guess most of them got eaten by the LMB. As soon as I start catching new generation on hook and line, I'm going to start bringing the pressure. That's very easy to do, my wife is a fishing machine.
Posted By: otto Re: Crappie experiment - 02/20/10 11:23 AM
The crappie may be hard to manage but they are fun to catch especially when they are spawning,( which is soon) and great to eat.
Otto
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 02/27/10 07:24 PM
Ok Guys Greg is about to order an aerator and a fountain for the crappie pond . I have been busy building my own structure out of 6 foot cattle fence post.
We are concerned because I surveyed the pond depths yesterday and the max depth was only four feet. So I know that the HB might not like the summer water temps if they get too high. So we are hoping to counter this problem with the aerator and fountaintain(keeping the water moving).

Any ideas?

Doc
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Crappie experiment - 03/01/10 07:32 PM
Doc, also I wonder if we can drill a well in your area? Aren't you close to the river? If so you could run well water in heat of summer to help with the heat.

Cody, the only supplier of the hybrid crappie was Ken's and I do not trust enough to get what Doc paid for from that source.

Basically I picked black crappie due to arguements of success for both sides. That being said aviailibility of black is better so what we decided to go with.
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 03/07/10 03:58 PM
update everthing ordered and the experiment officially begins next week guys. ill keep u posted. In theory it can be done.

DocFish
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 03/07/10 04:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: DocFish
update everthing ordered and the experiment officially begins next week guys. ill keep u posted. In theory it can be done.

DocFish


Thanks Doc. Very interested to see how it goes.
Posted By: n8ly Re: Crappie experiment - 03/08/10 04:08 AM
I know it can be done very easily. I have GREAT success stocking crappie in small ponds. Sometimes they dont spawn for years at a time, but sometimes they have a spawn that is simply overwhelming. That aspect of managing them is pretty unpredictable, but your success will depend on your goals and time spent on the water. If HSB are just for crappie predator I definitely think you should scale back feeding to a very low dose during the spring and summer months, but still keep feeding them just a small bit for supplement.

My best success with growing HUGE crappie in a small pond is to stock about a dozen or two adult crappie per acre into an established pond. Those fish routinely grow into 14-16" crappie real quick.

I havent stocked just a crappie pond though, but definitely want to. I just need to come up with an empty pond this spring and someone willing for an experiment like what you got going Doc! I have a feeling you will thoroughly enjoy the process for years to come, please keep us updated. (BTW, if you do need to harvest small crappies in your pond, I can teach Greg a few tricks for doing that pretty quickly!)
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Crappie experiment - 03/08/10 12:34 PM
good one Nate! We will have to put our fishing skills to the test sometime soon. You got me on outings per year for last ten years but me being much older you have lots of catching up to do my friend.

We will keep folks posted. Also wanted to add Malone's hatchery (thanks Todd O) had hybrid crappie available. After discussion with Doc we stayed with black- stocked this friday. He wants to catch some so if hybrid did little breeding he would have to restock later thus the decsion for black and sustained fishery. Knowing they have hybrid variety I will try them in other ponds in the near future.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 03/08/10 02:43 PM
Long but worth the read if you want the skinny on sources of info and main ideas on Crappie.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62560&fpart=10

AFS has had 3 symposia on Crappie covering many years of research. Here is a historical of the papers which will show you the ideas that have come up and a glimpse of the results. I have included some parts and omitted others including the list of authorities.


Challenges of Crappie Management Continuing into the
21st Century
JEFF BOXRUCKER*
ELISE IRWIN

White crappie Pomoxis annularis and black
crappie P. nigromaculatus are among the principle
species sought by anglers in the midwestern and
southeastern United States. The focus of management
activities aimed at improving crappie fisheries
has shifted over the years, and the published
literature reflects this shift. Three symposia on
crappies sponsored by the American Fisheries Society
have been significant contributors to the body
of knowledge on crappie ecology and management.
The third in this series, entitled ‘‘Challenges
of Crappie Management Continuing into the 21st
Century,’’ was held at the society’s 130th Annual
Meeting in St. Louis, Missouri, in 2000. The organizers’
objective was to compile the most current
work on crappie ecology and management and
help set the direction for research in the next decade.
This
introduction will try to show how the focus of
research has shifted and the role that these symposia
have played in that shift.

Mitzner (1984) identified the ‘‘small-crappie
syndrome’’ as a common theme in papers from the
first crappie symposium, ‘‘Crappie Management:
Problems and Solutions,’’ which was held at the
44th Midwest Fish and Wildlife Conference in
1982. As early as the 1940s, management activities
centered on reducing abundance through mechanical
or chemical removal. These techniques have
been used sparingly over the past 30 years because
of their high costs and short-term benefits. Investigations
of the interactions within crappie trophic
communities (O’Brien et al. 1984; Ellison 1984)
published in the first symposium led Mitzner
(1984) to conclude that management activities
were moving toward prey management. Published
accounts of the effects of prey stockings on crappie
population structure range from beneficial effects
on community food webs (Bartholomew 1966; Li
et al. 1976; Mosher 1984) to neutral effects (Boxrucker
1986; Boxrucker 1993; Hale 1996) and potentially
negative effects (Crowl and Boxrucker
1989; DeVries and Stein 1990; Guest et al. 1990;
DeVries et al. 1991). Mitzner (1984) also set the
stage for another shift in management strategies
by pointing out that managing angler harvest has
the potential to rectify the small-crappie syndrome.
A second crappie symposium, entitled ‘‘Crappie
Biology and Management,’’ was held
in 1990. Many of the papers published in connection
with this symposium were descriptive in nature,
with the topics including culture (Smeltzer
and Flickinger 1991), aging (Hammers and Miranda
1991; Sweatman and Kohler 1991), movements
and habitat use (Markham et al. 1991), relative
weight (Neumann and Murphy 1991), and
population characteristics (McDonough and Buchanan
1991; McInerny and Degan 1991; Colvin
1991a). The first accounts of the effects of minimum
length limits on crappie population structure
were published in the proceedings of this symposium
(Colvin 1991b; Webb and Ott 1991). Reed
and Davies (1991) and Larson et al. (1991), also
participants in this symposium, cautioned against
the use of restrictive harvest regulations due to the
high levels of natural mortality seen in some crappie
populations in Alabama and Georgia. Published
accounts of the use of length limits to manage
crappie fisheries increased following this symposium
(Allen and Miranda 1995; Allen et al.
1998; Maceina et al. 1998; Hale et al. 1999; Boxrucker
2001). The use of length limits in crappie
fisheries has been refined, with either a 229-mm
or a 254-mm limit being used depending on the
population’s growth rate. Equilibrium yield models
have assisted in refining the use of length limits
(Maceina et al. 1998; Slipke and Maceina 2001).
Currently, 15 of 27 states in the Northcentral and
Southern Divisions of the American Fisheries Society
manage crappie fisheries with length limits.
Crappie recruitment was historically thought to
be cyclic, with strong year-classes being produced
every 2 to 5 years (Swingle and Swingle 1967).
However, despite the importance of crappies as
sport fish, little research into the factors affecting
their recruitment has been published. Environmental
variables were identified as possible influences
on year-class strength (Jenkins 1955; Goodson
1966; Mathur et al. 1979), yet little cause-andeffect
data were presented. In the first crappie symposium,
O’Brien et al. (1984) discussed the effects
of abiotic factors on the survival of early life stages.
In the second crappie symposium, Mitzner
(1991) presented the relationships between crappie
year-class strength and various environmental variables,
including water level, turbidity, substratum,
and wind.
Crappie recruitment dynamics were the focus of
an increasing amount of research in the 1990s.
Water temperature influences spawning times and
subsequent growth and survival, with later-hatching
cohorts experiencing higher temperatures,
growth, and survival (Pine and Allen 2001). Dubuc
and DeVries (2002) failed to identify consistent
relationships between reservoir productivity and
larval crappie density. Guy and Willis (1995)
found differences in the recruitment variability of
crappies in South Dakota based on landscape characteristics.
Recruitment was less variable in systems
with high shoreline development indices (i.e.,
more embayments). The recruitment of black crappies
in South Dakota was also less variable in systems
with high watershed : water body surface area
ratios (Guy and Willis 1995). Water level fluctuations
have increasingly been suggested as a primary
influence on crappie recruitment. High inflows
and subsequent water releases in spring and
summer can lead to the reduced recruitment of
crappies (Pope et al. 1996; Maceina and Stimpert
1998). High winter water levels had a positive influence
on crappie year-class strength in Alabama
tributary impoundments (Maceina and Stimpert
1998), yet the mechanisms underlying this relationship
are not clear. Allen and Miranda (2001)
used a population model to conclude that crappie
recruitment was quasi-cyclic due to random fluctuations
in the environmental variables and density-
dependent mechanisms. Allen and Miranda
(1998) developed an age-structured model to help
explain the effects of erratic recruitment on crappie
management alternatives, particularly the use of
length limits.
Information from the two previous symposia on
crappies set the stage for the papers from this symposium.
Whereas the majority of manuscripts from
the 1990 symposium were descriptive, most of
those that follow evaluate management strategies.
Six of the papers deal with exploitation. Estimates
of exploitation were typically made from tagreturn
data and were subsequently used in conjunction
with catch curves to estimate natural mortality
rates. This information was then used to
model the potential effects of length limits on crappie
fisheries (Boxrucker 2002a, this issue; Isermann
et al. 2002a, this issue). Miranda et al. (2002,
this issue) found that the uncertainty surrounding
estimates of tagging mortality, tag loss, and particularly
reporting rate led to imprecise estimates
of exploitation in spite of the high costs of data
collection. These authors suggested that indirect
measures of exploitation (i.e., condition, total mortality
estimates, length and age distributions, and
increased recruitment variability) be used rather
than expensive tag-and-reward programs. Isermann
et al. (2002a) used equilibrium yield models
to evaluate Tennessee’s statewide 254-mm minimum
length limit on the yield of crappie fisheries.
The authors grouped the study reservoirs into three
categories: those in which 229-mm or 254-mm
length limits would increase yield, albeit at the
expense of the number of crappies harvested; those
in which length limits had no impact on yield; and
those that were negatively impacted by length limits.
The authors suggested that applying length
limits to fisheries using a categorical approach was
preferable to using a single, areawide regulation.
Bister et al. (2002, this issue) and Hurley and Jackson
(2002, this issue) reported decreased growth
rates in crappie populations in South Dakota and
Nebraska, respectively, as a result of length limit
regulations. The 229-mm length limit was removed
from Lake Alvin, South Dakota (Bister et
al. 2002), while Hurley and Jackson (2002) recommended
removing the 254-mm length limit
from two small Nebraska impoundments for only
a portion of the year to help maintain crappie densities.
Boxrucker (2002a) detailed population and
angler creel characteristics prior to, during, and
after the removal of a 254-mm length limit at an
Oklahoma reservoir. Even though the abundance
of quality- and preferred-size crappies and angler
catch rates improved as a result of the length limit,
angler dissatisfaction with the regulation led to its
removal. This is in contrast to the positive angler
sentiment in regards to harvest restrictions in the
Sardis Lake, Mississippi, crappie fishery (Dorr et
al. 2002, this issue).
Recruitment has been a common theme in all
three crappie symposia. McKeown and Mooradian
(2002, this issue) found that neither the low
density of adult stocks nor the overwinter mortality
of age-0 crappies was the cause of reduced
recruitment (relative to historical levels) in Chautauqua
Lake, New York. The authors concluded
that management efforts aimed at increasing adult
density would have little effect on recruitment
and the subsequent recovery of the fishery to historical
levels. Sammons et al. (2002, this issue)
found that crappie recruitment in Tennessee tributary
impoundments was positively related to
high water levels during the prespawning period
(January through March). Maciena and Stimpert
(1998) found a similar relationship in Alabama
tributary impoundments.
Two papers in this symposium dealt with supplemental
stocking, a little-used technique to improve
crappie recruitment. The results of stocking
black-nosed crappies (a morphological variant of
the black crappie) in Tennessee impoundments
were mixed, with contributions to year-class
strength ranging from 0% to 93% (Isermann et al.
2002b, this issue). Racey and Lochmann (2002,
this issue) determined that the year-class contribution
of white crappies stocked into Lake Chicot,
Arkansas, ranged from 0% to 3.1% and concluded
that other management options to improve adult
abundance should be considered.
Stocking predators to reduce the abundance of
slowly growing populations of crappies was the
topic of two papers in this symposium. The concept
was introduced by Willis et al. (1984) in the
first crappie symposium. Saugeyes (walleye Stizostedion
vitreum 3 sauger S. canadense) were
stocked into Richmond Lake, South Dakota, to improve
the size structure of a black crappie population
(Galinat et al. 2002, this issue) and into
Thunderbird Reservoir, Oklahoma, to improve that
of a slowly growing white crappie population
(Boxrucker 2002b, this issue). The growth rates
and size structure of both crappie populations improved
following the introduction of the saugeyes.
Boxrucker (2002b) cautioned that consideration
must be given to the effects of such biomanipulation
on all trophic levels and that thorough evaluations
need to be conducted both before and after
implementing it.
Spier and Heidinger (2002, this issue) investigated
the effects of turbidity on the growth of juvenile
and adult black and white crappies. No differences
were found in the growth of juveniles,
but the weight gain of adult black crappies was
higher than that of adult white crappies at low
turbidity.
The importance of crappies as sport fish ensures
that research into their ecology and management
will continue. Recruitment dynamics appear to be
the focus of current work, with water level manipulation
having the potential to significantly impact
year-class strength. The expanded use of
population models will assist managers in selectively
applying harvest regulations. Many crappie
populations have a high rate of natural mortality
that negates the potential benefits of length limits,
even when there is fast growth and high exploitation.
Research into the causative mechanisms in
populations exhibiting high natural mortality will
broaden management alternatives.
Acknowledgments
This symposium was sponsored by the Fisheries
Management Section of the American Fisheries
Society.
Posted By: cheyenne19 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/09/10 01:20 PM
 Originally Posted By: ewest
Greg have you seen the SEP info on their success with this approach. Might want to call Jeff. They use FH , TShad , crappie and HSB. IMO you will need to use several approaches at different times to adjust the plan to what is happing in the water. There are too many variables for any one size fits all plan to work. I would hold off on the BG at first. You may need to limit feeding during the period just before the crappie spawn and for several mths after to force the HSB and GShiners to go after the crappie.



I can't make any claims as to how this may work. With the help of Jeff at SEP we are on this same track. In three years we have been able to convert stunted WC into consistent 3/4lb-1 3/4lb fish in a 37ac BOW. There cannot be one recipe for success with WC. And according to Jeff there is so much going on in my pond that's it's almost too complex to understand.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 03/09/10 02:36 PM
 Originally Posted By: cheyenne19

... according to Jeff there is so much going on in my pond that's it's almost too complex to understand.


I agree with Jeff completely. With that many species and the situation it is more like a big reservoir than a pond or lake. We all know that even among reservoirs that look the same some have good crappie results and some don’t.

I will point out for everyone that there is a big difference between a short term change in one lake and a pond strategy that FS can suggest for others. It takes long term data and positive results replicated many times to get there. Jeff will tell you they are in the very early stages on their crappie experiment but so far so good. Your results are good source of ongoing info for them and us. Please keep us up to date on what happens - even the small stuff as there is a lot of interest in making crappie work.

I have a suggestion. Let's talk to Bob and Jeff and see about a PB mag story on your lake/results. It would make great reading.

Posted By: cheyenne19 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/09/10 06:36 PM
If I understand you correctly, that my results aren't longterm enough so show much and shouldn't be used as a guide line, then I totally agree. What we are doing seems to be working, but there is no evidence to show that it will continue. Jeff spoke with me once before about doing an article for PB about it, he then considered doing his conference speech about it. I'm happy to help in any way that I can.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 03/09/10 07:04 PM
 Originally Posted By: cheyenne19
If I understand you correctly, that my results aren't longterm enough so show much and shouldn't be used as a guide line, then I totally agree. What we are doing seems to be working, but there is no evidence to show that it will continue. Jeff spoke with me once before about doing an article for PB about it, he then considered doing his conference speech about it. I'm happy to help in any way that I can.


I should clarify. I think your results are great and are important info for many purposes. I hope they stay long term and continue to be a source of promise. They are a guideline. They may not be applicable to most small ponds however for obvious reasons. I think SEP's much simpler approach (fewer species and plan) may be a better guideline for smaller ponds. I will talk to Bob and see if I can start the process on a joint article with you and Jeff. You should start by writing down a history of the lake. Include a descriptive narrative of the history (family property) and basic facts (size , shape , depth , species , management etc). Also start picking out a few pics that will tell the story (not just big fish pics). That can be the starting point. I will be glad to facilitate the effort.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/10/10 02:58 AM
 Originally Posted By: ewest
 Originally Posted By: cheyenne19

... according to Jeff there is so much going on in my pond that's it's almost too complex to understand.


I agree with Jeff completely. With that many species and the situation it is more like a big reservoir than a pond or lake. We all know that even among reservoirs that look the same some have good crappie results and some don’t.

I will point out for everyone that there is a big difference between a short term change in one lake and a pond strategy that FS can suggest for others. It takes long term data and positive results replicated many times to get there. Jeff will tell you they are in the very early stages on their crappie experiment but so far so good. Your results are good source of ongoing info for them and us. Please keep us up to date on what happens - even the small stuff as there is a lot of interest in making crappie work.

I have a suggestion. Let's talk to Bob and Jeff and see about a PB mag story on your lake/results. It would make great reading.


This research is needed by the pond management industry. Please colaborate on something - we need this information!
Posted By: cheyenne19 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/10/10 03:13 AM
 Originally Posted By: ewest
 Originally Posted By: cheyenne19
If I understand you correctly, that my results aren't longterm enough so show much and shouldn't be used as a guide line, then I totally agree. What we are doing seems to be working, but there is no evidence to show that it will continue. Jeff spoke with me once before about doing an article for PB about it, he then considered doing his conference speech about it. I'm happy to help in any way that I can.


I should clarify. I think your results are great and are important info for many purposes. I hope they stay long term and continue to be a source of promise. They are a guideline. They may not be applicable to most small ponds however for obvious reasons. I think SEP's much simpler approach (fewer species and plan) may be a better guideline for smaller ponds. I will talk to Bob and see if I can start the process on a joint article with you and Jeff. You should start by writing down a history of the lake. Include a descriptive narrative of the history (family property) and basic facts (size , shape , depth , species , management etc). Also start picking out a few pics that will tell the story (not just big fish pics). That can be the starting point. I will be glad to facilitate the effort.


No need to clarify. That's exactly how I feel. The results are great. We just don't really know how all the different species are intearcting to bring about these results. I feel like the large catfish could be playing a role in controlling both crappie and lare gizzard shad, but I have no real way of proving it. I hope there is valuable information to be learned from our pond, but I would never suggest doing things exactly as we have. In a perfect world I would have started from scratch. Jeff should have good notes from each electro survey that we've conducted as well as photos from them. I'll get in touch with him see what he thinks.
Cason
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 03/17/10 08:59 PM
ok guys aerator in , fountain in, fish in! it begins pics soon as weathear breaks but it does exemplify beauty for one thing...... Now to the harvest,:) the second and most important thing. Lets raise some crappie and prove this is a scientific endeavor and like al science experiments all the variables etc. I feel have been covered . Th e x factor is the limiting substrate as in all labs. ....But hell I have always been an X man fan.:)

doc
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 03/17/10 09:00 PM
Looking forward to your report!
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 03/18/10 08:55 PM
Alright , here is an interesting update...


Question. I don't think you guys know but I am a quarter cherokee ,kinda ike an Avatar:)

Well anyway today was kinda interesting. I have a pole out in the crappie pond 24/7 . Got some Stubby Steve's as bait so I just leave it there. Water temps about 47 and rising as spring is finally seemingly here.

I drove my four wheeler around my property today as it was a sunny day here in GA . (happened to check the crappie pond which is beautiful thanx to Greg and his crew).

Did a double take cause my bobber was gone....not to mention yesterday I lost a pole, vanished into the depths(freaky I thought). This time I jumped off my ATV and started reeling my spinning rod in . I had 12 pound mono on it that I use for striper fishing.

D.... I thought as I reeled ,thinking i was snaggged but I know this didnt make scientific sense as I had sounded the pond and walked most of it myself with a wet suit! and placed all the possibe structure in it. So my brain and spirit as we say had a conflict:) Well long story short would you believe SOMETHING was pulling against me! Some-thing alive......


The struggle of a fight yielded a 20 lb .....American Snapping Turtle( LOL).

The question/ predatoor prey ratio . Greg and I had already discussed a Blue Heron issue I had yesterday and now this. I have pics but later.

The scientific question is this guys... my Jamaican mother-in-law and \:\) part of me says yummy lets see what snapping turtle taste like.
But my analytical side says should I release it back into the 3/4 acre newly stocked pond or transport it beyond my property or even into the larger pond. This is delicate science in a 3/4 acre establishment. The ecosysystem is delicately crucial the turtle at least 20 years old!

Question is what would you guys do ....keeping in mind a 20 lb snapper can eat up some fish whether it be crappie ,hybrid,or minnow?

Let me know ur thoughts .

Doc
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/18/10 09:02 PM
It will certainly eat some but I doubt that it will get enough to make an overall difference.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Crappie experiment - 03/18/10 09:42 PM
Ask Catmandoo for a recipe and eat that bad boy! I agree with Dave though, I doubt it is eating many live and healthy fish...
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 03/18/10 09:54 PM
Let it swim Doc! Snapping turtles are fun. We have them in the adjoining creek next to the 3/4 acre pond I'm building so I know we'll have them in there. Everything I've read say they don't eat enough to do any harm. Be fun to catch one on rod and reel.
Posted By: esshup Re: Crappie experiment - 03/19/10 01:06 AM
Even if you take it out to see how it tastes, I'm sure another one will take it's place.
Posted By: Greg Grimes Re: Crappie experiment - 03/19/10 06:58 PM
Doc, what did you do?
Posted By: mmorgan Re: Crappie experiment - 03/19/10 07:48 PM
Doc, if the turtle has not made it to the dinner table yet and is still alive, let me know. The Georgia Aquarium called me last summer wanting one and if they haven’t gotten their hands on one since then, I think they would take it.
Posted By: ewest Re: Crappie experiment - 03/19/10 07:56 PM
I would give it to Matt or move it. It’s too big for the pond. They can be a hazard to humans when big.
Posted By: Brettski Re: Crappie experiment - 03/19/10 09:28 PM
I always chuckle at Lusk's favorite line regarding American snappers: If it gets a fish, the fish deserved it and you didn't want it in your pond anyway (paraphrased).
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 03/20/10 02:00 AM
ok, as karma would have it I went out at 2 am to check on it and it was gone. .. PS i really don't think I could ve killed it unless i was ..like in the movie Defience (desperate), then no prob... but I was glad it got away! i Am sure it went to the larger pond. I ll have pics as soon as my camera stops screwing up. and I can download again.

PS Those floating fountains even though cheap are simply beautiful. I am going to order two more for the larger pond as soon as the wife says yea:) ;\)

and fellas how now the fish are in ...dp I catch the rascals?:)
Not biting yet.. but neithrer are my bluegill.
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 04/01/10 02:59 AM
ok update, last two days water temp ha risen to 61 degrees in the crappie pond. I have beenobserving some hybrid activity against the shoreline. I nailed a total now of 5 crappie on jigs and even worms in the late afternoon hours. Haven't even tried minnows yet. I plan to start my tagging project tomorrow. I released all the fish they were about 7-8 inches and vigorous.

I am wondering will they spawn this season?
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 04/01/10 12:30 PM
Thanks for the update Doc. Keep em coming.
Posted By: DocFish Re: Crappie experiment - 04/14/10 01:36 AM
Update been constantly tagging fish . They are biting. Wonder if they are spawning????


Water temp 60 ish
weather 70 ish
bite depth avg 3ft max (shoreline)

Hitting live minnows like mad. 2nd jig 3rd a piece of night crawler

last just got my W.M crappe pole and 4lb vanishing line from BPS lets see whats next \:\)

Doc
Posted By: bz Re: Crappie experiment - 06/07/10 03:21 AM
Here is proof you can grow pretty nice crappie in a 3/4 acre pond. Last Friday we caught a half dozen fish close to this size. This was the largest at 15 inches held by an average sized 13 year old kid. Boy I love watching kids fish!



Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 06/07/10 01:25 PM
That's a great fish from a small BOW!
Posted By: river rat Re: Crappie experiment - 09/02/10 11:55 AM
doc fish, i just got my dam built and your experiment is really what i want to do with my pond. im new to the pond ownership thing but i really think i can manage a 3/4 pond of crappie. looking forward to seeing what data you have this fall.
Posted By: MRHELLO Re: Crappie experiment - 09/03/10 09:23 PM
DocFish, do you happen to have any recent update for us, I think the last one was in April.

Thanks
Posted By: rcn11thacr Re: Crappie experiment - 01/20/11 12:55 AM
Sure wish crappie was a good thing to have in my pond. Being in the south i cant have trout either, oh well. Anything new on this thread?
Posted By: jeffreythree Re: Crappie experiment - 01/20/11 10:20 PM
This thread, and crappie in a pond in general, is an interesting topic to me since I have them. A little background for those that do not know: 3-5 acre pond depending on season, stocked by previous owner in '06 with unknown mix of LMB, BG, CC, and who knows what. Something about the mix of species combined with the pond habitat has kept the crappie in check. In fact, I think they only have a decent spawn every few years as I only catch them in specific sizes ie 3-5 and 12-14 but nothing in between, even in nets. I guess it is just another odd piece of my extremely strange pond.
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Crappie experiment - 01/20/11 10:34 PM
Aint there a crappie breed that dont breed or something? you could stock those if your dead on crappies.. I think its Hybrid
Posted By: Omaha Re: Crappie experiment - 01/21/11 12:35 AM
Search 'Magnolia' on these forums for a discussion on Hybrid Crappie.
Posted By: fishinbub Re: Crappie experiment - 01/28/11 03:08 AM
It can happen. Here are some crappie we caught in our 3 acre lake last spring. These range from 13" to about 18" No stocking in over ten years, and almost completely C&R during that time. Just a freak thing. Now comes the tricky part, trying to manage the pond to maintain these slabs.






Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Crappie experiment - 01/28/11 12:16 PM
Whoppers!! Well done.
Posted By: Allchca Re: Crappie experiment - 02/17/11 04:35 AM
Soo what happen?
Posted By: Stockin Re: Crappie experiment - 03/05/11 04:53 AM
Doc here is some motivation for you. Small pond that is full of nice crappie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_uNrw9sPFQ
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