Pond Boss
Posted By: cougar NEW POND! - 03/27/09 04:38 PM
Hello everyone!

Its been a while since I've posted! Been catching up on some reading. I believe the last exchange I was involved in was discussing the admirable qualities of the GSF!
I have recently been busy with all the work that goes into grooming a new house and surrounding land.

I posted in the past about a 1 acre pond on family land about 25 minutes away that I was trying to manage. I am not able to devote the time to do it right as I am the father of a 17 month old boy, and my wife needs me around in the afternoons. I do try to catch out some of the 10"-12" bass to cook up when I get out there though.

Now that we've got our new place starting to shape up, it's time to build a pond by my house! It will be in a drainage area (a holler i.e. hollow----if you are from MS as I am)

The contractor estimated that it will be about a 2 acre pond. I want to have bass/bream with maybe a few cats.
Many questions have I! I live in Northeast Mississippi with "clay gumbo" or "yazoo clay" soil.

What should I do first, once the pond is dug and the levee is built? Rocks and or gravel in bottom for spawning? brush?
Once it fills up what kind of food base should I start with?
Thanks for any advice or comments.
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 03/27/09 04:45 PM
also, my constractor advised steep sides on the side of the pond close to the house so the pond would drop off rather quick and would have less aquatice vegetation there. i'm guessing though tha i need some gradual slopage somewhere becasue i will need some vegetaion, right?
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 03/27/09 04:54 PM
another question....shold Ihave the contractor put the downed hardwood trees from the construction of the pond put in the bottom for fish habitat?
Posted By: HoneyHole Re: NEW POND! - 03/27/09 06:16 PM
Congratulations on your ground breaking, these are exciting times, and possibly once in a lifetime. You will want to spend plenty of time talking with your contractor before he gets into his work (or too far into it) to make sure you are both on the same page. The soil you are in is fertile and definitely a plus. Your contractor is right about having good slope (4/1 or better) by your house. As for the rest of the pond it would help if we new more about the min/max depths of the pond. Some vegetation is good but a 2 acre pond can quickly be taken over by certain plants if you do not have proper depths. Vegetation provides cover and spawning habitat for many specie and it depends on what your goal WRT target species in the pond will be. You can easily add sufficient cover and habitat in your pond to address those needs in the form of rock, wood or artificial structures. As for the trees, one big one or a couple of smaller ones with the root balls would do nicely in a 2 ac. pond. There have been some discussions here about using a lot of certain green hardwoods causing water quality problems, so a little drying time may be advisable. I personally have never had problems using these amounts per acre.

Good Luck and Good Times
-HH
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: NEW POND! - 03/28/09 02:49 AM
Test the hardwoods before you put them in. Cut a chunk and put it in pond water. OK, get some pond water from a neighbor. See if it changes the water any.

Here's the deal. I had all of the oaks that we pushed down put into the bowl of my new water hole. It rained and the water turned black. I stocked and the tannic acid from the oaks killed everything. I tried using chlorine and other treatments. Nothing worked so I bought a pump and pumped it dry. Then I waited through a Texas summer for everything to dry properly.

On the other hand, I just wouldn't do it. It set me back 2 years on my stocking.

No way I would have steep sides. It's too dangerous for children and other living things.
Posted By: jeffhasapond Re: NEW POND! - 03/28/09 03:10 PM
Thanks for posting again Cougar. You are on the GSA's membership role. I was wondering what had happened to you. I spend so much time tracking "unfriendlies" (Yolk and Rainman have been keeping me busy lately) that I don't always have time to track our members.

A two acre pond is a very nice sized pond. Take photos, we really enjoy seeing before, during and after pond construction photos.

I'm glad you're posting again!
Posted By: Rainman Re: NEW POND! - 03/28/09 03:54 PM
You've missed a few slams Jhap!

Back to Couger.....
Posted By: otto Re: NEW POND! - 03/28/09 10:40 PM
Cougar

Good to have you back---as you can see we are still having fun.

How far along are you in the planning stages?

Otto
Posted By: STRIZZO Re: NEW POND! - 03/30/09 11:34 PM
May I interject some food for thought Cougar: my contractor suggested a nice gradual slope for the kids, just in case they fell in, sinec you have a new yungin, you may want to put some thought into it. Hope you don't mind but I pasted a post here for some feedback, not to steal your thunder.
I have lots of questions, but for starters I would like to say thanks, for all the info you have compiled here and all the seemingly good advice. I have been reading for a few days now, hit and miss and I could not stand it anymore.
I live in extreme Western Kentucky, about 10 miles from the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers and, as the crow flies, about a mile from the Ohio River. Last summer, I became the owner of what I hope will eventually be a 3 acre backyard oasis. I have pics to post, but they will have to wait for the moment. I had the thing dug, limed with 12 tons of lime, partially lined with 8" rip rap (to which I later added almost twice the original amount, up to 125 tons now, 50 tons placed by hand!), 15 tons of "birds eye" brown gravel(the kind used for landscaping, for fish beds), placed a few large tree trunks(I had all the cleared trees burnt, buried, or removed) and once I got some water(it filled up quite a bit last spring and has yet to reach that level this year), I threw in 50 lbs of fatheads. That was in April 2008, in November 2008, I added 150 channel catfish, 1200 bluegill fingerlings. This spring, I am going to add 300 red eared sunfish, and 150 black crappie fingerlings, before I receive 360 largemouth bass fingerlings in late May.
The pond is to be 14' or so at the center of the levee and goes to zero at the ends. The center is to be 5-6' due to a mound formed by the burial of the unburned roots, with an area of 9' on either side rising to zero. I placed 5 areas of the birds eye gravel in the shallow depths at various locations.
I would like to know if I need to fertilize this pond to give these fish some food or if there is enough for them naturally. There is a pic of the water color (somewhere in the grey-green scale). Air temp this time of year is mid 40s at night to mid 60s in the day time, although today is rather cool at 43 deg. There is no vegetation in this pond yet, and I wonder about food for the red ears in a year or so.
I also am concerned about my water level; I do not get a lot of runoff in this location and would like some advice on a well. Along with that, I may as well ask about aeration. I am looking for a sustained fishery for pleasure and fun with my kids. Trophy bass is probably not my goal, maybe large bluegill and descent crappie.

http://picasaweb.google.com/saroberts02/PicsToPondBoss?authkey=Gv1sRgCJPxrICRi83JAg#
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 02:36 AM
Thanks for all the input everyone!
Forgive me, as I am a novice pond builder/manager(and a novice forum poster!). If I knew more, I'd comment more on other folks' posts; but I do enjoy reading and learning.
Thanks for the slope advice. And hardwood advice. There are more decisions to be made than I ever realized.

Hey Strizzo, won't crappie overpopulate in a pond the size you described?

My pond may be growing. Have spoken with the adjoining land owner and he doesn't mind if some of the pond gets on him. He is a first-rate guy and that land has been in his family for years and he has no plans of letting it leave his family.......Anyway, this would make the levee farther down the creek/ditch thus increasing the size of the size of the pond by approximately an acre. Input please: Anyone have any horror stories of sharing a pond with a neighbor?

Also, I know this is a while away, but should I stock fatheads first? Can CNBG be stocked with the fatheads? I eventually want to have LMB/CNBG/RES with maybe some CC for an occasional surprise or just a lazy day of fishing from the bank.
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 02:52 AM
JHAP, I bet my membership dues in GSA are way past due!

random thoughts: contractor said pond would be a max of 12' but if i decide to go with the "expanded pond" if will be even deeper.
good to be back Otto!
i plan 2 learn to post photos on here. never done that. told y'all i was a forum novice! and I'm only 32 so i should be more computer fluent!
Posted By: Rainman Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 08:18 AM
Strizzo, I would reconsider the Crappie at least until the bass are around 2 pounds minimum. With all fish being fingerlings, a bumper crop of crappie one obliterate a new ponds predator/ prey balance.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 08:47 AM
It's very hard to have both nice bass and nice crappie. If you have crappie in your pond, its usually lots of stunted bass to control the crappie reproduction and some decent crappies or its a bunch of stunted crappie and hardly any bass at all...

I think the biggest thing with crappie in ponds is there just isn't enough space to have bass and crappie, with both being of a good size. One thing I would like to experiment with is to stock LMB at a lower rate and crappie at a lower rate. Then heavily cull crappie reproduction through fishing and seining/trapping. I think you could possibly pull off a pond with both nice sized bass and crappie, but it would requite a lot of work.
Posted By: otto Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 09:17 AM
Are you getting up early or you up late
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 09:32 AM
I work the midnight shift, been up since 4 yesterday evening... Nice when you have a quiet shift! You get to be on the Pond Boss forum. I got broadband access in my laptop in my police car.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 10:19 AM
Mike, the same question applies to you. Got a guilty conscience and can't sleep?
Posted By: eddie_walker Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 01:23 PM
 Originally Posted By: cougar
...My pond may be growing. Have spoken with the adjoining land owner and he doesn't mind if some of the pond gets on him. He is a first-rate guy and that land has been in his family for years and he has no plans of letting it leave his family.......Anyway, this would make the levee farther down the creek/ditch thus increasing the size of the size of the pond by approximately an acre. Input please: Anyone have any horror stories of sharing a pond with a neighbor?...


Don't do it !!!!!!!!!!

While another acre of surface water has allot of appeal, it won't be your acre. If you were to do this, there are only two things that can happen, it works out or it doesn't. The problem is that in time, it won't work out for you.

Things to consider. The neighbor is a great guy, but sooner or later he will die. It might not happen in your lifetime, and in fact, you might be the one to go first. Either way, it can happen any day, and when it does, you have a nightmare on your hands.

Things to consider are maintenance of his shoreline. Will he or others build a dock on it? Will they take care of it? Stay up late shooting off fireworks or guns? Let people fish it who leave a mess, don't respect property lines and leave garbage behind? What about taking a boat out into the pond? Will you be alright if they find a honey hole on your side of the pond and catch a dozen, two dozen or more of your bass? Who pays for stocking the pond? Who pays for repairs or cleaning out the drain pipes? What if his heirs decide to split up the place, or sell it off? Kids who inherit land have a very funny way of not caring about neighbors or even their parents wishes. It's just about how much they can get for it, or how quickly they can get it.

The second you share any part of the pond with a neighbor, you lose all control of that pond. It is no longer yours, and what happens in the future is out of your hands. Nobody can predict the future, and nobody can gurantee that a great neighbor will stay that way. If he doesn't die, will he remain financially secure? Allot of wealthy people are now working at WalMart after loosing millions just this year. Will a family member need him someplace else? There's just too many scenarios to be able to guess what the future will hold. Only one of them is good. For everything to remain the way it is right now. Odds are that won't happen.

Good luck, keep the pond on your land and enjoy it any way you want. You will never have any regrets if you do it this way.

Eddie
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 03:17 PM
Agreed Eddie
Posted By: Rainman Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 04:15 PM
DON"T DO IT!!!!

A judge just landlocked us from our property (illegal in this state but still happened) when the guy we bought our place from decided to block the only access road. Two years in the courts so far and no end in site!
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 04:44 PM
thanks for the advice. i am going to beg him to sell me a strip of land to run the levee across to. If no, then I'll take y'alls' advice and build the smaller pond. It will be a huge bummer to my visions of grandure. The extra acre won't be on him, just about a 1/4 acre; but that 1/4 would let the corner 3/4 acre of my land be underwater.
Posted By: Brettski Re: NEW POND! - 03/31/09 05:23 PM
We've discussed this a few times on the PB forum before. The laws vary from state to state, but there are instances where a BOW touching one landowners property gives that same landowner legal right to the entire BOW. The best decision IMO is to keep 100% of the water captured within your property lines.
-
There is a little bit more that should be considered...
Even if you do keep the water captured within your property lines, how will it affect the adjacent soils on your neighbor's property? When you get a heavy rain, will the rising water level encroach? Even during normal pool height, could the saturation compromise the soils on your neighbor's property? ie; his driveway runs close to your pond and now the soils are soft....or something similar.
Posted By: STRIZZO Re: NEW POND! - 04/01/09 01:11 AM
Thank you gentelmen, I too am a novice. I have been told several things about the crappie. I just don't know. I have fished ponds with them and all seems well(?). I just don't want to ruin things from the start. I may wait a year or two on them if that is the consensus. I just want a sustained, enjoyable fishery, close enough to enoy a cold on while I relax.
I set out some minnow habitat today since my water level is not up to my rip rap this year. I took some left over deck 4x6 and roughed two pieces cut on a 45 deg. Then I nailed some cedar shake on the angle, alternating side to side. I had to place a piece of rock on each one(I made six of them 'bout 4' long). Hope it works!
Posted By: cougar Re: NEW POND! - 04/01/09 01:54 AM
Sounds interesting Strizzo. I may replicate some of your minnow habitat idea. What do you plan to stock first? fathead minnows? Will you stock BG at the same time?

GREAT NEWS
UPDATE: My neighbor has agreed to sell me the necessary bit of land to make my future pond larger.
Thanks to all who advised me not to build a "shared" pond. The possible negative scenarios you all described (Eddie, Brettski, Dave, and Rainman) made me get resolved to ask to buy a little land from him or just go with the smaller pond plan.
Posted By: Brettski Re: NEW POND! - 04/01/09 02:02 AM
That is indeed, awesome news and a great ending to your pondal dilemna. It doesn't happen that smoothly very often. That being said, we had the same good fortune with our neighbor just before we started our LNP project. I know the feeling of joy and relief. Congrats and hurry up the closing!
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: NEW POND! - 04/01/09 02:15 AM
That is great.
Posted By: STRIZZO Re: NEW POND! - 04/01/09 05:18 PM
I envy your good relations with the neighbor Cougar, that is killer news. My situation was not so joyous, but I really do not want to relive the nightmare here, let's just say it involved the property line and the runoff that crosses my place and fills my neighbors pond, among the guise of a fence and some cows! Took the joy out of the whole project and ruined the summer.
On to the question from Cougar: I have already done what you are talking about, but to answer the question, I stocked the FHM first in April of '08, the pond was 4' or so from capacity (judging by the water level on the levee, I'm not too keen on water measurement and average dept, the state delivered my CC and BG fingerlings in October '08, and now in April '09, thanks to some PB expertise, I will forego the crappie and go with 300 1-3" RES (the 3-4" ones were expensive, double the 1-3")and 10 more pounds of FHM, of the rosy red variety(the substantial winds of late pulveried a few hundred of the minnows hatched last spring, so I'm adding more).
I have read the thread on feeding, but can you guys clue me in on the details for such small fish, floating or sinking?
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: NEW POND! - 04/02/09 01:16 AM
Strizzo

Hey welcome to the forum!
To harken back to a management goal you stated earlier: If you really want to establish a Crappie fishery in a smallish pond you need to bear in mind the difficulty in achieving a proper balance. Lots of pondmeisters far more experienced than I have tried and failed.
A potential solution for you might be looking into Hybrid Crappie. It's a WC/BC cross and their offspring are inferior [subject to predation] thus limiting their ability to overpopulate. Theorhetically this would serve as an ideal solution for small pond owners who insist on stocking Crappie [like you and me!].
Arkansas Pond Stockers carries the hybrid crappie I believe - Rainman has done some research on this topic and knows far more than myself. Anyone else with any hybrid experience please chime in!
Posted By: STRIZZO Re: NEW POND! - 04/02/09 02:15 AM
Thanks, I have not heard of hybrid crappie. Do you have any? Are their young able to reproduce? I'll have to look into that. My wife really wants to stock some, I think I'm gonna hold off for now. These sound like a good alternative. Do you have any experience with crawfish? I have read some posts here and some info from Missouri Dept. of Conservation, I thought maybe for the RES(?).
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