These are pretty self explanatory - more detailed pictures of the .25 acre SMB reproduction pond and the beds I made last week as I promised.

I realize these beds are in close proximity to one another - but I was worried about the South shore collecting silt runoff so I had to remain dedicated to the N and E banks.

The bed walls average around 16" - 20" in back and gradually decrease as they slope to the welcome mat of the Motel 6 Master Suite. The rubber feed tubs I used in order to keep the beds up and out of the silt/clay also demanded I use mucho rock to keep it flush. I didn't want there to exist an abrupt rubber lip - but create a more gradual "driveway" effect into the beds. Way more about me than the fish? Probably so.

I would have added additional rock, and probably will, but with heavy rains predicted I had to complete the essential aspects of the job first. All rock was carried by pail - about 15T - by yours truly. My fingers are still swollen to bratwurst proportions.

From all I've read, the project entailed some unique properties from which I can hopefully extrapolate some important data [if the SMB utilize them at all!]: Rubber feed tubs, Limestone rock, elevated beds, issues with siltation...

You will have to keep us updated on how the spawn goes and if the SMB like their new love making beds.

TJ's Smallie Sybaris

Nice job, TJ! I'll be curious to hear how well the SMB use the beds.

Are they covered with water yet?

No, but they may be in 12 hours.

You need to come up for the Baylor NU game this year Davasta - and we can see for ourselves.

Been threatening rain all day - it sure better come or I raced against an imaginary deadline.

I think they just said the %chance dropped from 70 to zero. Looks like tomorrow afternoon is tha next best chance.

Thanks for the update - there's still time to move some rocks. Meet me in 20 min? I'll bring the headlamps.

I'm already there. I rode my bicycle out.

Let me get this straight. You moved the rocks by hand?

Otto

Yes - Cat got them to the top of the dam but I didn't want to disturb the soils too much and the slopes are 2:1 of very loose particulate so I didn't drive down the damface.

As I carried the first bucket to create the cornerstone of first SMB Motel 6 I thought, "this isn't so bad!" 15T later I was throwing them down the slopes into a loose pile and arranging them from there. Although I can say there is not a single pebble placed without "design"...I just have to hope my "design" is conducive to SMB reproduction!

Strong like bull; smart like tractor.

All real Pondmeisters build their SMB beds by hand.












Or coerce their kids into doing it.

I dumped my SMB bed construction material into a flat pile with the hopes that the fish are either creative or motivated to extreme makeovers.
-
This, of course, excludes the polyvinylphibian saucers. That was (ahem) a labor of love.

With love from your dad B'ski - cribbs , B'ski logs and polyvinylphibian saucers .

Bski and Herr Gallus definitely showed me the way with their structure. Thanks gentlemen!

I'm sure glad bluegill aren't so picky. They seem to have this survival of the species down pat.

Thought I should repost these as I deleted the old ones on Flickr accidently:

Under advisement from Bob Lusk I moved some SMB beds to different depths so I could hedge my bets. I also was able to increase the distance between beds which could improve my chances of pulling a spawn.



The slope makes the new beds higher on the bank appear slanted, and guess what? They are. I was tired and left them that way. I wonder if the fish reject them finding them unsuitable?





Following Eric and Bill's excellent SMB articles in Pond Boss mag, I used the cinderblock I had on hand and constructed one, finally, the RIGHT way!



I've stocked 8 SMB from 10-14" in this 1/3 acre pond. I'm planning to stock around 40 before the Autumn - and hope for the best come Spring.

Here's the pond full pool after a hard, satisfying day of projects at the hatchery ponds. I have a nice population of FHM established to feed the SMB this Autumn, Winter and Spring...not taking pellets as of yet.

Thanks for the wonderful pics TJ. A good idea to hedge your depth bets. Any chance of adding a log/wood by a few beds even if temporarily during the spawn ?

Yes indeed, Eric. Do you think a Brettski log would serve this purpose well also? I have literally hundreds of lbs of scrap PVC I need to use, and this would be a nice Winter project.

Those pictures are fantastic. Great work!

I think the B'ski logs will work. Try a few with different sizes and limb densities and see what works best.

Nice!!!

I think 48 smallies in a 1/3 ac pond are too many. They will quickly over eat the food source unless you are using BG or another similar forage speices that requires a stronger predatory pressure. To keep smallies growing fast it is best to always have ample food available (for more info on this see Nov-Dec09 PBoss mag). If you are not using BG I suggest you reduce the total stocked initially to 20-30 which equates to 60-90 per acre. IMO if you are looking to grow trophy smallies and getting them big fairly fast, 90/ac is still a little on the high density side of numbers. Your first SMB spawn will result in capacity smallies for this pond. Greg Grimes had a very good presentation at the PB III Convention about this topic: "Stocking 10X Forage and Low density LMB". IMO His principles also apply to smallies.

Appreciate the info, Bill. My goal for this pond is to actually raise SMB, seine them out in Autumn, and provide them commercially. I'd like to then release the adults back into the reproduction pond for spawning the next year. Unfortunately, I JUST read Bob Lusk's article from a back issue [Nov/Dec 2005] "Hatchery Ponds: Tips how to decide to use small ponds for fish production", and I wish I would have come across this a long time ago.

Any suggestions on the number of adult SMB I should stock in this pond, considering my goal is reproduction? I realize my approach might be far oversimplified at this point, but there's still time to make corrections. Assuming I'll pull off a spawn next Spring, should I be concerned my adult SMB will eradicate the YOY before I have a chance to seine them in the Autumn? I'm open and grateful for any advice.

An idea. Go ahead as is assuming the SMB will be able to spawn this spring , plan to stock plenty of FH . Once the new yoy SMB reach swim-up size plus about one week then start reducing the adult SMB #s and move them to another pond.

Check on blocking nets here as they have been use with good results even on SMB growout attempts.

Dang you are more than just a pretty face, this looks, feels and smells like a Schedule F to me, but no doubt you already are quite aware of that.

Assuming I have 20 adult SMB in the Spring

1. they pull off a spawn
2. I fish or seine to remove the adult fish ASAP and move them to another pond
3. Leave the fry to grow unmolested

Is this your suggestion? Let's face it, that's the perfect scenario, one that might be unlikely for me because...well, I'm me.

This might me more realistic:

20 adult SMB

1. pull off a spawn
2. I don't successfully remove many, if any, adult SMB
3. Adult SMB will hammer my YOY to extirpation even with a very high population of GSH and FHM present

Does that sound about right? Without adult SMB removal will do I stand little chance of raising fish?

I already wrote off a ton of expenses related to a hatchery business this year...I'm going to have some splaining to do if I don't successfully raise and sell a few fish next year...

I believe you can offset any other income with a schedule F loss for one more year. IIRC if the activity is unprofitable 2 out of 3 years it will be considered a hobby. (maybe 3 of 5 but I dont think there is a definite rule). After 3 years if overall (cumulative) you have a profit you should be fine.

this is only the second time I've smiled today. thanks - seriously, that takes a weight off my shoulders.

So...JHAP, how many Nebraska bullfrog tadpoles can I put you down for next year? I'm also expecting a bumper crop of dirt clods...FREE SHIPPING

How in the dickens do you ship bullfrog tadpoles?

Very carefully.

I'm all full up on bullfrog tadpoles. Depending upon the price, I might be interested in the dirt clods though.

Not certain, but from the sound of things I might not have any SMB to ship, so I'm checking my inventory for things I have handy.

The IRS has an audit guide, Market Segment Specialization Program IRC Section 183, that is specifically aimed at Cattle and Horse Operations but I believe that a similar test would occur in a fish breeding operation.

This guide instructs auditors that "if an activity’s gross income exceeds attributable deductions [in other words has as profit] for 3 or more of the taxable years in a period of 5 consecutive taxable years, then the activity is presumed to be engaged in for profit, regardless of whether the activity is engaged in for profit. Unforeseen or fortuitous circumstances can impact profitability and should be considered."

So if profit is made during any 3 years of a 5 consecutive year period (in other words the 5 years are consective not the 3 years) then your activity will be deemed to be engaged in for profit and the hobby loss rules will not apply. The unforseen circumstances rules can also circumvent the hobbly loss rules if for example you had a fish kill, etc.

Note:
The guide I mentioned above is specifically geared toward Horse and Cattle Operations. That being said for anyone that is involved in these types of operations or operations in which a similar farm activity is involved, the publication is an interesting resource. This guide is aimed more at taxpayers that that have an additional primary source of income (for example are employed full time) and the farm is a secondary source of income. This guide is available for download here to anyone that is interested.

And of course the disclaimer...
The information provided above is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as, nor relied upon as tax advice. Check with your tax preparer or your next door neighbor to see if the information discussed above applies to your specific situation. JHAP is NOT an expert in tax law as it relates to farm schedules so don't ask him any questions about either (1) tax law as it relates to a farm, or (2) farm law as it relates to taxes. JHAP grew up in the city and therefore doesn't know a lot about farms, he did regularly watch Green Acres as a child so he could probably differentiate between a goat and a sheep but don't rely on it. Tax code is available freely over the internet however prolonged exposure to tax code can cause nausea, projectile vomiting and overall discomfort, displeasure, disassociation, disbelief, discontent, disharmony, disheveling, disgust, disloyalty, disobediance, disquietude and many other words that start with dis. Four out of five doctors recommend avoiding any prolonged exposure to Internal Revenue Code while three of seven dentists actually enjoy reading tax code. This makes sense when you think about it because most folks don't like visits with either their tax preparer or their dentist. JHAP is a CPA that is licensed to practice in the State of California even though he resides in a perpetual State of Denial. JHAP will continue to practice until he gets better at it. The opinions expressed by JHAP are not necessarily those of Pond Boss's management, moderators, advertisers, members at large, members at small, or even medium sized members.

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Running the rat race in this world of chaos and uncertainty, it's easy to forget the best solutions to our problems are usually the simplest! Time to slow down, take a breath, and take a natural approach, folks. Born from rich, Nebraska earth, there's no more natural cure for all that pains you than Hudson Dirt Clods. Take a moment, order yours today. You'll be glad you did!

TJ, don't you have a lawn to mow? Perhaps some PVC to patch?

Dude, you're a comic genius...I spit out my diet pepsi reading this. Keyboard is sticky - but it was worth it.

Could you create some kind of a net system that can be moved across the pond in such a way as to corral the bigger fish.

You could keep the adults in a percentage of the pond, observe spawning, and at the right time, move the net, moving the adults off of the yoy and into another portion of the pond.

It might be a way to maximize the amount of yoy that make it to sellable size.

You're no slouch yourself, oh and sign me up for 12, no better make that 14 cases of Hudson Dirt Clods.

What the hell was this thread about anyway?

That is a blocking net MB. TJ even if you don't move most of the adults out IMO you will have some baby SMB survive. TJ you will need a net/seine and you can protect a bunch with it. See blocking net threads.

Eric,
didn't you do a PB article on blocking nets a couple of years ago?

I have the back issues and do have that article for reference. It's a very complete account of how to. Thanks for reminding me.

I have a narrow creek arm in my main pond perfectly suited for this, or I could try to isolate as many fry as possible in the repro pond and keep the adults blocked. Seems to make more sense to try and catch the adults and pen them...but who know how well that will work.

I do think keeping the numbers of adult SMB low is important. I might add another 6 or so to try and ensure I have good F - M ratios...that would bring me to a total of 14 adult fish. Not too many to try and catch.

One more thing I have going for me is the high number of FHM and GSH in the pond...I'm hopeful they might relieve some of the cannibalistic predation on the YOY SMB.

?

Several thoughts. To run a fishery you have to have a 1/4 inch seine. Bruce has one to lend. He has a thread on buying a seine.

See Shorty's thread on growing out SMB via a blocking net.

You can buy rigid plastic fencing/netting and make a pen ( 3 sided with the bank being the 4th side) . It comes in all sizes and heights. You can put it in place easy with small D rings or cable ties and a few small posts (like vegetable plant stakes). About 2 weeks after swim-up (SMB yoy about 2 inches) seine them up using a 1/4 inch seine and move them to the pen. Start feeding them . When they get to size and you sell them remove the pen until next time.

This has been saved for future reference. Thanks Eric...again.

Wow, I'm catching this thread late. That is a great looking BOW you have there TJ and an exciting project up ahead for you. Very cool.

SMB REPRODUCTION POND UPDATE

It's been a Spring/Summer full of doubt concerning my SMB reproduction project. This Spring I never noticed any fish on the beds, but many were so deep I would have had to scuba to verify. Another concern: Beds are so deep, could DO levels be too low at that depth to discourage pairing and spawning? In anticipation of this I created a few new beds in late winter in shallower water, stocked FHM and GSH and hoped for the best.

I haven't seen my adult SMB since early June, and Bruce mentioned he saw a dead 14" fish about four weeks ago. I've been throwing pellets a few times weekly and never seen a take - and the FHM and GSH seem extirpated despite multiple supplemental stockings. All signs pointed to me engaging in too complex a project with too little knowledge. My beds were too deep. I didn't stock enough forage. I didn't stock pellet trained adults to help relieve pressure on the forage. I didn't perform a SMB mating dance...all signs pointing to failure.










Walking the pond three weeks ago I was seeing some smaller 3-4" fish darting in the shallows upon my approach. I figured they were remnant GSH...tried pellets, not a take. Where are my adult fish? Where are ANY fish? Dejected, I decided to tie on a 1/80 jig and gulp maggot in a futile effort to at least catch one of those GSH.

I cast mid distance across the pond, so my retrieve would tick the edge of a stand of Amercian Pondweed...I figured the GSH would be hanging in the shade and picking off invertabrates there.

I bring the jig close to the edge, then rod tip down and allow a slow flutter into the shadows of the pondweed leaves....BANG - I'm on! Jeezo...this thing's a freak - shallow run right, deep run left, then four attempts to spool me running directly away if he only had the size. Rod tip up, swing the fish up and....








Good Gravy!



Another cast....POW!



Third cast - nailed it! Gosh, these fish have super low WR, but they're here!



Man it's a fun and quick trip from dejection to elation with a twist of swagger...Yep, I am one proud SMB papa! What's more, this is likely the only BOW in Eastern NE with a reproducing population of SMB - too cool. That's a feather in the Pond Boss Forum's hat - nicely done boys - dang we're good! Now that I know what I'm seeing, I try to estimate how many of these "GSH" I see around the pond...wow, there's hundreds!

Okay, now what? I have to get my babies fed and these WRs up! I'm going to be trapping as many FHM possible from my other ponds and transfer over the next few weeks. Each visit I'm trying to introduce AM 400 and 500 in an effort to pellet train. Thus far I've only verified a very few who are interested. Keep trying...keep trying. Any thoughts here?

Congrats all - we pulled off a pretty unique project, totally unknown in these parts. Thanks for the guidance and encouragement.

Get about 30# of FHM delivered asap. Keep at it with the feeding.

I agree. Seine some out and sell them or trade them for FH. All those SMB can't live and grow in the reproduction pond.

The need to breed is very strong. Its results often can endure many of our mistakes.

Less fish more food.

My FHM source isn't seining due to high water temps until early September. I'll go set traps and also collect some YOY BG, clip their fins, and include them. I have no idea how many YOY present - I'd say easily 500-1000 or more.

You sure you want to put BG in ?

Way to go, TJ!! Smallies!

TJ, find a different source. The bait shops still have FHM, right?

Let's smoke some cigars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better not have gut hooked any of those smallies!

My initial concern may be unwarranted, but I know if LMB are overpopulated, and restricted in space that they will turn into wicked little cannibals. Will SMB, even with smaller mouth resort to the same treachery? Hopefully not so much.

If it swims, my SMB eat it!!!

Mine is in an aquarium though

I could be convinced to drive up there.....Maybe Banks or others need something to cover the fuel.

TJ, You might try NEMO Bait Co. See if they have a route through there. They have a minimum order of only 2# in St. Louis....delivered on a weekly route.

Rainman, if you get to where you feel you could come up I have a redear order for you. Somewhere around 1,000 fish needed total.

I'm gettin better Bruce and have your fish reserved. I went back in to A-Fib Tuesday again, but coughed my way back to sinus rythym again......the new CPR....If it keeps doing this, a pacemaker is next on the list.

Rex, if you do need a pacemaker, there's a whole new set of rules you have to adhere to. Dad has one, and a number of things he could do before it was installed, he can't do now.

Congratulations TJ that is awesome!

UPDATE:

Walked the entire SMB pond late afternoon yesterday, started throwing AM 500 in new places. Actually stimulated some feeding, got very excited, freaked out and proceeded to shovel more pellets at them than they could eat in a week. Typical TJ thinking...."If a little is good, a lot is great!"

Okay...so, good start - now I need to return daily and get them into a routine and try to temper my exuberance and be more efficient with the feeding. Also, set my traps last night...problem is I'm getting so many tadpoles they literally STUFF the cages and I have no minnows present. Those BF Tadpoles are pellet hogs. I'm going to need to refine my tactics somehow in order to move forage into the SMB pond.

Thought I'd share the good news. Will keep you apprised.

No, no I'm not. Spoken out of desperation I thought some YOY BG with clipped fins could help provide some forage. They will eventually be eaten or seined out anyhow...but still, not a wise plan, probably. Appreciate you staying my hand on that one - inexperience and exuberance on my part.

Have you received your bill for BISA dues yet?

The new surcharge of $1,500 per YOY is gonna add up TJ.

2011 SMB Reproduction Update PART I

Thought it was high time I provide an update on my SMB repro project. Pulled a nice spawn in 2011, but my rooted vegetation got the upper hand during the Summer and Reward treatment did little to improve the situation. In the Fall of 2011 we pulled the seine a few times but it was simply too difficult and we only collected a few fish. Reluctantly I decided to refill the repro ponds and hope for Winter survival and tackle things in early Spring of 2012.

We seined four weeks ago and it's apparent there was some serious cannibalism occuring, as I'd feared. Half the fish [150] were 2-3.5", the remaining were 7-8" with a handful pushing 9". Sold them all, and drained the pond down to inspect the beds and to get ready for 2012.

My original beds, pictured on this thread, were in pretty bad shape. Beds were silted in and the limestone walls were crumbling, too.





I needed to create a new SMB bed design in my clay ponds if I wanted to continue or improve spawning success. I tried to envision a design which used Eric and Bill's cinderblock prototype but also address the siltation issues I'd been experiencing. I looked for materials already on hand, and this is how things began to take shape.

Pallets provide elevation I need from the clay bottom plus allow silt to flow through and provides cover for YOY SMB. I needed to use cinder blocks on the front of the beds in order to keep them somewhat level:







I had concern the beds might, over time, begin to slide down the slope of the pond so I used stakes to keep them in place:





Needed something to hold the 2-4" limestone bed material in place and prevent it from falling through the pallets:



Always important to create a little privacy for magic time:

2011/2012 SMB Reproduction Update PART II



Bill Cody suggests larger rock to serve as spawning beds as it allows better oxygen supply to eggs and prevents a layer of silt from forming that might occur using pea gravel or sand:



Eric and Bill recommend using a log in order to provide some cover for YOY SMB. I thought the cinder blocks and pallets would provide plenty of hiding places, but I decided to use some 6-12" PVC I was utilizing as FHM spawning stucture and placed it around the beds - even though it might be overkill:





I had a lot of rock from my original beds slowly disappearing into the silt/muck. I paid dearly for that limestone, so I thought I'd try to make the beds appear a little more homey and authentic and also would help keep the PVC in place:







Here is the finished product, just waiting for the pond to refill:



Cue the romantic music...





I placed all 5 beds between 3-6' depth to offer some options for the SMB. Provided I'm successful, I hope these bed designs can help provide some ideas for those of you interested in pulling off SMB spawns, too.

That is awesome. Revolutionary even as far as SMB beds go. One question; at the front of the beds, did you put anything to keep the rocks from falling off the front of the pallet? Or you don't foresee that being an issue?

I have them slightly angled when it was possible to prevent sliding forward, but also placed larger, heavier stones along the front, although it's hard to see in the photos. I used 6" rock along the front as that was a concern of mine, too. If I need to replace a little rock every year it's easily done, unlike in the past, these are readily accessible and I can remove any FA buildup or siltation by spraying the beds and cleaning them off in a flash. Did a few trial runs and the spray nozzle worked like a charm - silt/mud ran right through the mesh and through the pallet. I'm pretty excited about the spawn this spring!

Who are we starting the romantic music for?

TJ,

Cool stuff. I too will be attempting spawning smallmouth this year in one of my steep sided 1/10th acre ponds. Mine has limestone boulders in the water with pockets I will fill with landscape size stone very shortly.

I will also attempt to seine them out at 1.5 inches or so and feed train them in a flow through tank on site.

My smallie broodfish are feed trained so I think I'll preclude the planting of fatheads to sustain them. I'm thinking the fatheads could compete with the smallmouth bass fry? Maybe not?

I noticed you had a lot of filamentous algae on the bottom. You weren't able to get a good algae bloom going before it took hold? I've found in my perch and bluegill production ponds if I get a good algae bloom going ASAP the algae won't take hold. If not, the algae continually robs nutrients from the phytoplankton and you never get a good algae bloom going, which is imperative for high survival of the newly hatched fish (at least this has been the case for my bluegill and yellow perch.)

As far as silt shouldn't the male keep the eggs fanned until they hatch?

Please keep us posted. I'll start a thread on mine if no one minds.

Thanks Cecil - and that's exciting to hear you're going for it this year. I stocked 5,000 FHM last year and they didn't last more than 4-6 weeks, so I don't think they were competing with my SMB YOY. But that may be in large part due to the fact I couldn't remove all my brood fish at one time, either, and they may have hammered the FHM. At one point I'm certain I had well over 2500 SMB YOY present in the pond, and while they weren't in great shape, they were taking AM 400 pellets even at 2" or so.

I have never fertilized - the FA showed up so early this year it was crazy. Imagine when the pondweed starts up it will tie up all nutrients and the FA will pretty much abate. But that still doesn't leave anything for the YOY to feed upon, and I need some ideas there.

I am planning on treating the pond with Whitecap in Mid June, and seine in late July or early August. Fish should be 2-3" by then and I'll cage them and start feed training. I anticipate seining will be much easier by treating the vegetation and I should also end up with many more SMB.

I am concerned when I treat the rooted vegetation that I may incur a FA explosion. I would prefer an algae bloom, obviously, but not sure how to navigate this situation. I have thought about adding pond shading agent after whitecap treatment in hopes it would help prevent FA, but not sure that would help or not. Seining through FA is a pain, but not nearly as bad as my American Pondweed. My water is so clear in this pond it grows 8' from bottom.

TJ:

Whack the rooted plants earlier. Once they die back, whack the algae with Cutrine. Once the algae is killed, (should be a couple of days max) fertilize to get a bloom going. That should take care of your problem, give the YPY SMB a good food base to start on, and makeig seining easier.

Yeah I agree with Scott. You need to have an algae bloom ASAP for zooplankton food, and no filamentous algae or macrophytes to impede it. I have already added some whitecap to my pond and have been treating FA and some Chara with Cutrine Plus although it's not very effective on the Chara.

Do you have any problems pulling your seine over your spawning structure? I'd be worried my seine would get caught on the pallet or blocks.

When do you start seeing ovary development in your smallmouth broodfish? I haven't transferred mine yet but hope to soon. My fish are 12 to 16 inches now and three years old so they should work.

This thread is awesome! I am waiting for my pond to fill up so I can plant some spiral eel grass and hardy lillies, next weekend I will stock FHM, GSH, RES, crayfish, banded killifish, and hopefully some other diverse minnows and eventually some Grass Shrimp. The plan is to have a SMB/YP pond. I made some smallmouth beds similar to yours but larger, I don't want to overpopulate mine since it is not a repro pond but I do want a sustaining population so I only put in two beds.

Since you drained the pond out and removed all the fish will you put a forage base in and let them marinate for a year before adding SMB or will you just put SMB in and feed them pellets?

Oh and I forgot to ask: if you are raising feed trained SMB can you possibly ship them to Virginia? I won't need them until next spring but I would love to get 25 feed trained SMB that can become my brood stock! I know it is tough to find a SMB source so I want to figure this out early.

I have no rooted plants now, that's why the FA is blooming, and way earlier than normal. I don't know if a whitecap treatment now or later makes more sense. I'm not convinced I need to treat the FA now, but I may become so. I'm not familiar with the process of using Cutrine - is it as easy as adding to the water and circulating like it is with Whitecap? What I'm not willing to do is apply cutrine to the entire pond bottom it's a fairly large BOW in which to do it. I would love for there to be a nice plankton and subsequent zooplankton bloom, but just not sure how to get there. So far I've done none of these things and had success - but I'm always open to improving my results.

Spawning beds are elevated so when the drawdown for seining occurs they will be high and dry and out of the way of the seine net.

TJ,
You can use either the Cutrine granules (using a hand spreader) or liquid Cutrine(mixed with water in a sprayer) to spot treat the area that you are seeing FA.

I have been told that the cutrine will kill the good algae so you don't want to disperse in the entire pond, I wouldn't think.

If you are referring to me I'm not sure I will have enough to sell as this is my first effort, and the pond is only 1/10 acre so the number I can produce is limited. It could be a flop for all I know as I've been told smallmouth fingerling production can be boom or bust depending on the weather. I was told if a severe cold front comes through at the wrong time the drop in water temp can wipe the fry out.

Even if I did have enough to sell, as In indicated in another thread regarding Condello/Baird bluegills, I have to do expensive health testing to export out of a Great Lakes state (Indiana) not to mention what the receiving state requires. I primarily raise fish for my own niche market and sell any extras within the state so i don't have to deal with the expensive health testing. Apparently the virus only activates if it crosses state lines! Gotta love the gubernment that uses politics instead of real science!

Ditto!

I would use the Cutrine Plus granules ASAP for the algae so that the phytoplankton can get hold. Or maye even better would be Green Clean professional so there wouldn't be an copper residue? Otherwise you will never get rid of the FA and never get a good algae bloom. At least not at first when it's needed the most to feed the zooplankton. At least this is what I've been told by a yellow perch producer retired Ohio State extension agent in Ohio, Bill Lynch that really knows his stuff. I can't imagine why it would be different with smallmouth bass.

When the fry use up their yolk sack they need zooplankton of the right quantity and size right away or they are done for. At that point they are fitting any zooplankton they can in their tiny mouths 24/7. If it's not there in the right quantities or size, your survival rate goes way down. Same goes for later, and if they over graze the zooplankton due to not enough or too many fish they starve or if large enough resort to cannibalism.



I can't speak for that as I don't know. I do know copper can effect the benthos but would rather refer to Bill Cody on that. If it wasn't so darn overpriced I'd prefer to use the Greenclean Plus. I tried the regular and it was ineffective on my FA./

Cecil

I have tried the SMB reproduction for two years, and have been moderately successful both years. I think you are selling yourself FAR too short. I'm confident you will see great results...it only takes one batch of eggs to result in thousands of SMB! I guess it's possible I've had dumb luck, but I still have high hopes for your successful experiment. I wish I could provide some guidance for you - but you've already forgotten stuff I haven't even learned yet about raising fish. I can, however, provide a LONG list of things NOT to do for anyone interested. I'm rather a resident expert in that field.

Thanks DJ - good info. Honestly, I need to determine if using herbicides to hit the FA is a worthwhile expenditure of my time/effort/money. I've left the pond alone for two years and had moderate success, although I certainly don't doubt the wisdom of what's being prescribed here. If low effort results in 300-500 SMB annually and that fits my needs, maybe I just continue on that course.

Thanks for the kind words but I'm still a smallmouth virgin at this point and you you've been around the block a couple of times.

I'd love to know what not to do. I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others. Let's hear it.

BTW I have become so computerized when you typed "FAR" I had to stop and think what that meant in computer lingo. For a second there I thought, "Oh God he's letting me have it!" Then I realized it was a word!

Cecil

Here's what I have learned thru trial and error:

Create beds at different depths. I'm not a fan of pond bottom as I'm worried about DO levels that deep. Take the time to create them between 3-6' even if it means some alterations like I had to do. This will ensure your best chances for bedding SMB.

I also honored Bill's advice and used a 30' spread between beds as they can be territorial.

I only saw one bed being utilized last year, and still resulted in thousands of fry.

I am using 12-15" SMB - to improve my odds I'm stocking 20 in a my .3 AC smb repro pond as I can't tell right now if they are gravid or not. I figure with 20 I have to get at least 25% females. Sexually mature I think around 9-10", but I go with bigger fish exhibiting good genetics AND pellet trained - that last part is critical. Crazy weather here has everything upside down. I know my perch just spawned last couple weeks, so SMB are sure to follow in a week or two I'm guessing.

Get your brood fish out as soon as you can after the spawn, I think I had some serious cannibalism going on. I think pellets help, but they aren't available at all times. I was unsuccessful at keeping the pond full of FHM forage long enough to make a difference.


Try seining early at smaller sizes to help ensure survival of higher numbers...which you are already planning on I think.

To add context.


From the SMB nest building thread with my drawn in logs




Actual wild SMB on nest 2 ft deep – not a pond fish – try to mimic this – note I am standing on the dock which acts as the big log








Another wild fish right above the bed





SMB fry – black dots

Sounds like a nice fishery plan you have brewing good work. Can't wait to see how you do, please keep us in the loop with updates and photos!

I have tried establishing a forage base in the past, but the cost outweighs the gain due to my time constraints. A perfect scenario would be to have two SMB ponds and alternate years producing SMB. The other pond would sit for a year developing forage. I guess I have that option but I'd have to quit my RES/BG reproduction project in order to do it and I haven't reached my goals on that project yet so I'm reluctant to do so. So I'll just pellet feed the SMB and get them out ASAP following the spawn and return to the main pond.

Thanks for the info TJ.

Do you use a surface aerator in the pond or have one on hand in case of an emergency? I'm asking because one saved my butt last summer in the yellow perch production pond. I had an intense algae bloom far beyond what I needed and started getting diurnal oxygen depletion. I will probably have two production ponds going this year so I'm a little nervous about only having one surface aerator. I'd have three if i wasn't combining the perch with the bluegills.

On the other hand if I seine them out for feed training I can drain and refill and may not have any issues. I could also do an alum treatment when refilling and restocking as long as they are feed trained.

My problem is the ponds are only 1/10th acre and harder to control. I also may get some law fertilizer into the pond as both of my neighbors behind me are into the lawn care thing with beaucoup fertilizers and herbicides.

Gotta love the way the Government makes laws about our natural resources that are based on fear and not facts!

I don't use or have an aerator - but I do run the well often in the Summer which works through rocks so it's oxygenated and also circulates the pond in a circular manner which also probably helps. I've never lost a fish to date in any of my ponds due to any O2 problems, but they are young yet and those risks probably increase daily without aeration which I want to add this year to all ponds.

Sweet set up, let the romance begin!! well done.