Pond Boss
Posted By: petemc06 Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/24/15 11:52 AM
My wife and I are planning on building and 8x8 floating dock with plastic barrels for floats. Since the pond is a good ways from our house, we will be limited to our cordless drills for screwing it together. From the test holes I have drilled, I am not sure we will have enough power with the cordless drills. Could we use galvanized nails instead of screws to build the frame?
You could, but the battery powered drill/screw gun that I have will run most of a day on one battery. Just bring extra batteries or a small generator.

Piers were built with nails before they were built with screws, so it'd still hold but screws are better long term.
FWIW IMO if you absolutlely can't use screws, I would use a pole barn style nail.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/24/15 12:16 PM
I would not use nails but a cordless drill will work using the larger rust resistant screws. If it takes a little longer to build then I am thinking it might last a little longer in the pond. What u think?

Tracy
Thanks guys. Got the batteries charged up over night and am going to give it a goo this afternoon with my 3" decking screws. For the outside frame, how many screws do you think I need to use per corner?
Posted By: JKB Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/24/15 12:34 PM
You could also get a small power inverter and charge the drill batteries from your vehicle.
I too would only use screws. Make sure they are the kind made for the type of lumber you will be using. Different preservatives have different effects on the screw coatings.

JKB's solution is probably the easiest for keeping batteries charged in a remote location. My Toyota truck and my wife's Ford Escape have factory installed 150 watt 120 VAC 60 Hz inverters built into them.
Posted By: RAH Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/24/15 03:31 PM
Good galvanized, ring-shank nails worked fine for me. The ring-shank nails don't pull out very easily. Just use nails that are sized right for the job. One advantage of nails over screws, is that they will often bend rather than sheering off under expansion and contraction stress.
Originally Posted By: RAH
Good galvanized, ring-shank nails worked fine for me. The ring-shank nails don't pull out very easily. Just use nails that are sized right for the job. One advantage of nails over screws, is that they will often bend rather than sheering off under expansion and contraction stress.


I fully agree with this hands down. The new wire screws are junk now adays. If your lumber is wet the screw will not "just might", but will sheer off when the lumber drys. Even the ceramic coated green screws now are junk. A really good stainless screw in #10 or #12 is the best to run if you do not want to re screw everything again in two years.

If your going to use nails the hot dipped galvanized are the only way to fly.

Cheers Don.

EDIT: P.S. if you can get a good 18v impact driver you will never use a nail again.
We utilized screws only. The heavy duty stuff we used SPAX:

http://www.spax.us/

Specifically the hex washer head:
http://www.spax.us/en/power-lags/hex-washer-head.html#.VWKWpUajvB4
I'd say invest in a small 1000-1200 watt portable generator. That's how I built my floating dock w/o permanent power. Use all your power tools, radio, lights, etc.
My deck has loosened over time using nails. But only because I didn't seal it as well as I should have over time. The section that has an open gazebo protected floor is just fine.
Originally Posted By: basslover
We utilized screws only. The heavy duty stuff we used SPAX:

http://www.spax.us/

Specifically the hex washer head:
http://www.spax.us/en/power-lags/hex-washer-head.html#.VWKWpUajvB4





Man you Americans with your Philips screw heads. Once you try a Robbie you will never run a Philips again. I have yet to find a Philips that you can put on and let go even with a magnetic tip.

I remember shipping some stairs to the US and we packaged the load with red robbie screws and they could not get the load apart because they couldn't find a driver to fit them. Just smashed the load apart with a hammer.
Posted By: JKB Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 02:10 PM
+1 on the SPAX. I use the Torx drive myself. A bit more expensive than other brands, but are a quality grade 5 fastener. Never had one break or work loose.

The Robertson (square drive) is popular here as well.
I used #10 stainless steel screws with square drive heads on my pier.

I made steps for the back porch around 8-10 years ago. I used the coated torx deck screws. While they are holding tight and haven't loosened, they ARE rusting and have been rusty for the past few years. Not only are the screws that are in the treads rusty, the ones that are in the vertical risers are rusty too.
Posted By: RAH Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 04:14 PM
You may have been a victim of the "new and improved" pressure-treated wood that corrodes fasteners. I think they fixed this now.
Posted By: snrub Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 04:26 PM
Don't use a drill. Use an impact driver. Makes all the difference in the world.

Torx head are far superior to Phillips in my opinion.

You can get chargers for your cordless batteries that run off of a 12v car power source to recharge.

The large batteries work far better if doing a lot of screwing.

Examples of what I use. We have at least a dozen of these around the farm that employees use in the shop for mechanic work (with socket adapter) and I use to screw metal roof on and build docks and various projects. We also have a bunch of the half inch socket style impacts of the same brand. Not advertising this brand, its just what we use a lot of as an example. Lots of other brands good also.

Impact driver

Driver alone with specs - obviously not the way to buy one

In vehicle charger We have a half dozen of these - keep them in all the service vehicles

Big batteries a must if doing large projects

First time I used an impact driver was when we were putting concrete board on the side of our house so we could install slate as siding. Tried screwing it on with drills. Kept breaking screws and stripping Phillips heads. Bought an impact driver and screws went in as slick as greasy BB's. No comparison. Wonderful tools. Put a socket adapter and have an impact wrench with around a hundred ft/lbs torque. Great for up to about half inch or 5/8 bolts. Our mechanics use them all the time on small stuff.

Posted By: snrub Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: basslover
We utilized screws only. The heavy duty stuff we used SPAX:

http://www.spax.us/

Specifically the hex washer head:
http://www.spax.us/en/power-lags/hex-washer-head.html#.VWKWpUajvB4




Those Spax work great for timbers and heavier pieces of wood compared to lag screws. I'm old enough lag screws were all I knew. Drill hole, screw in, and if the hole drilled a little too small twist off the poor quality #2 grade screw. Saw these SPAX in at Home Depot and tried a few just recently. No pre drilling, impact driver screws them right in, no twisting off because good quality metal. Great product. Expensive, but well worth it if a persons time and frustration level is of any value. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks.
I'm hooked on the Dewalts with brushless motors. Battery life is incredible.

http://www.dewalt.com/tools/cordless-drills-drilldrivers-dcd790d2.aspx
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I'm hooked on the Dewalts with brushless motors. Battery life is incredible.

http://www.dewalt.com/tools/cordless-drills-drilldrivers-dcd790d2.aspx


Ditto. Especially when you get the 5ah batteries. wink grin
Is it time for the Ford Vs Chevy, Coke vs Pepsi debate again? grin

Just for the record, I'm the guy drinking a Pepsi while driving a Chevy to the store, so I can treat myself to a new MILWAUKEE power tool......
Posted By: snrub Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 04:58 PM
DeWalts are great tools, and if I were only buying for myself might well choose that brand. But I can catch the Ryobi on sale usually pre-Christmas and buy the sets really cheap. We have had really good service from them. Around the farm we have probably in excess of $15,000 of Ryobi cordless and corded tools. One Christmas bought all employees the 6 piece ulitmate cordless set for their Christmas present for their home use.

6 piece combo tool kit

Ryobi is owned by the same company as Rigid. According to their rep from our area, Ryobi gets the Rigid technology a couple of years behind. Rigid is their premium brand and Ryobi is the consumer brand. Out of dozens of tools, we have returned a half dozen or so for warrantee work over the last five or six years. Turn around time is very slow for repairs, but the tools are cheap enough (especially when bought on sale) we just keep extras on hand. The impact drivers really get used and the half inch cordless impact wrenches are also used almost daily in the shop. Reciprocating saws and drills get used a lot too.

Impact wrench I see it is a three speed now. Ours are all only single speed. My mechanics better not see this...............

Ryobi rep likes us well enough he sent us a whole box of Ryobi T-shirts for the whole crew, some driver/drill kits and other assorted goodies.
Posted By: JKB Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 05:03 PM
Have both Dewalt and Milwaukee. I like them both, but Milwaukee, "in my opinion", is a better tool. Darn batteries are expensive tho!
I think Dewalt, along with Porter-Cable, is Black and Decker's premium line.
Tony, you got a Ford motor in that Chevy? grin

I'm not hung up on brands, just whatever works. I just like to try and keep all the cordless tools using the same battery. The dang batteries are more expensive than the tools!!
Posted By: JKB Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Tony, you got a Ford motor in that Chevy? grin

I'm not hung up on brands, just whatever works. I just like to try and keep all the cordless tools using the same battery. The dang batteries are more expensive than the tools!!


I bought a couple kits in the past. Didn't need the tool, but they came with free batteries that cost much less than buying the batteries alone.
Originally Posted By: esshup
Tony, you got a Ford motor in that Chevy? grin


Only during the winter months, Scott.....Ford engines make great ballast for added traction when you throw a couple in the bed. And there's plenty of non-running ones to choose from! laugh
For awhile I sent my worn out battery packs in with my interstate batteries supplier, for rebuilding. It worked pretty well, and it was cheaper than buying new OEM stuff. But, the last one I had rebuilt just didn't give me the life expectancy I was hoping for, and when I disassembled it myself I found offshore, very generic batteries inside.

So, I simply switched to buying the offshore battery packs from Ebay. All new components and housings, (Interstate reuses the old housings), appeared to be the same knockoff batteries that IB was using to rebuild my Milwaukee packs, and it was half the cost of having them rebuilt, including shipping. 1/4 the cost of Milwaukee packs, and the performance has been excellent. I have several now.
Posted By: JKB Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 05/25/15 08:09 PM
I don't add anything for traction in my truck. Just hit the shifter once in a while if need be.

Ford, Chevy (GMC) Dodge, whatever works for you!
Ended up getting the dock finished using coated decking screws. Turn out great. Thanks for the advice.
Want to build a 14'x4' gangplank. What is the best way to attach it to the ground and to the dock so that water level fluctuations don't cause problems? The dock is on a 1.5 acre pond. Thanks!
Originally Posted By: petemc06
Want to build a 14'x4' gangplank. What is the best way to attach it to the ground and to the dock so that water level fluctuations don't cause problems? The dock is on a 1.5 acre pond. Thanks!


I'll see if I can find photos of what I've done in the past. I have a 12'x4' walkway to my main floating dock. The 10'x10' floating platform can easily float 18 inches above and below full pool while the platform remains essentially level.

As for land anchors, I've used a post hole digger on my tractor to dig 8-10 inch diameter holes, a minimum of 36 inches deep, and at least 12 inches above the mean water line (full pool). The holes get filled with dry pre-mixed (Sac-Crete) type concrete mixes. I place hardware into the top and just moisten it. Natural soil moisture, that close to the pond edge, will harden and cure the remainder of the pre-mix in a couple of days.

I've always used agricultural gate hardware. I just can't find links to exactly what I've used. But, they are similar to these examples:







Good luck,
Ken
For a floating dock, I use Dockbuilders hardware.

https://www.dockbuilders.com/wooden-gangway-hardware.htm
I hate to resurrect an old thread but a recent revelation forces me to do so. I built my dock with galvanized ring-shank nails and 15 months later all is well. A few weeks ago I was watching an episode of Lake Life on DIY network and Nate was building a dock with nails for the frame and screws for the deck boards. If it's good enuff for Nate, it's good enuff for me!
Posted By: RAH Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 06/02/15 05:50 PM
My fixed dock is doing pretty well after 12 years and my floating dock after 11 years. Some deck boards warp on the ends, but unlike the deck boards on my porch which snap the screws, the dock boards can just be re-nailed.
Posted By: snrub Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 06/02/15 06:36 PM
Nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread. I much prefer that than having lots of new threads discussing the same thing and having the discussions fragmented all over everywhere where they are hard to find. I like reading and learning from the old threads.

The thing I like about the screws is that when I make the inevitable mistakes that I do, with screws it is easy to correct the mistakes. Sometimes with nails (depending on the type of nails and the amount I use) it involves destroying what has previously been done instead of being able to repair or re-purpose the materials.

Don't get me wrong, I have 4 different air powered nail guns, and when something involves doing a lot in a short time, the nail guns win hands down. But for small projects and stuff I am designing on the fly, a rechargeable impact driver and screws are my "go to" tools.
Originally Posted By: snrub
The thing I like about the screws is that when I make the inevitable mistakes that I do, with screws it is easy to correct the mistakes. Sometimes with nails (depending on the type of nails and the amount I use) it involves destroying what has previously been done instead of being able to repair or re-purpose the materials.

Don't get me wrong, I have 4 different air powered nail guns, and when something involves doing a lot in a short time, the nail guns win hands down. But for small projects and stuff I am designing on the fly, a rechargeable impact driver and screws are my "go to" tools.

My sentiments exactly. I don't use very many nails, except for certain projects like installing asphalt shingles or clapboard siding or oak flooring, etc. 90 percent of the time I use screws. I'm a tool junkie, and my nail guns often gather dust, but my impact drivers get a workout...heck, they hardly sit long enough to cool down. Over the years, I've learned a fair amount about fasteners, and the selection and application of something as prosaic as a screw can often involve a number of factors in the decision-making process. Whenever I've taken the time and effort to choose the best fasteners for the job and install them correctly, it has paid off.

For pressure-treated dock decking in a freshwater environment, especially when using lumber treated with one of the ACQ treatments, I like to use GRK PHEINOX™ R4­™ Stainless Steel screws. If I recall, those are type 305 stainless.

(NOTE: In a saltwater environment, I would strongly recommend finding a source of deck screws made of type 316 stainless, which is less subject to corrosion in sea water than types 304 or 305).

I've used a few thousand of the GRKs for various projects, including a couple of docks, and they work great. That said, I've successfully used other brands as well. When working with PT lumber, which is often one of the southern yellow pines (SYP), I like to predrill the boards with an appropriate size pilot hole and sometimes a shank hole as well, depending on the brand and type of screw I'm using. Despite being a 'softwood,' SYP can have pretty hard latewood rings and is sometimes called a 'hard pine.' I've found that in general, predrilling seems to make installation easier, with fewer twisted screws or cracked boards. In softer woods, predrilling might not always be required, although I still do it most of the time.

I've observed that the GRK screws seem less prone to twisting than some other brands that I've used. It seems to me that SYP PT wood can sometimes be pretty 'grippy' compared to some other softwoods, requiring more torque to install screws, which is one reason (besides the hard latewood rings) that I like to predrill my PT project lumber. Still, there's no guarantee that you won't occasionally twist the shank of a screw when installing PT wood decking on a PT frame. However, I don't recall breaking a single deck screw in the last dock deck that I built. Nor have any snapped since then.

Another reason I usually prefer screws over nails is that I'm not always the best shot with a hammer, and if I don't hit my thumb, I sometimes dent the wood, which can be embarrassing. blush

PT wood, which is usually wet (unless you use KDAT - Kiln Dried AFTER Treatment), will shrink quite a bit in most situations, and if it's fastened with screws it's an easy matter to give each screw an extra cinch with a Torx screwdriver after the wood has stabilized for a while.

And, as snrub said, mistakes are easier and quicker to fix when using screws than with nails.

A few more thoughts about selecting screws for wooden decking and about predrilling: I try to select screws with a 'grip length' roughly equal to the thickness of the deck boards that I'm screwing down to the joists. This grip length might be a completely unthreaded portion of the shank, or there might be some special threads on that portion of the shank that are different from the rest of the threads and designed to interact with the wooden deck boards. The chances are you'd be using what might be called 'production' screws rather than 'traditional' wood screws, in which case the shank clearance hole may often be the same size as the pilot hole, so in many cases only one drill bit should be required. The term 'production wood screw' might not be a universal term, although I've seen/heard it in various places. I've seen some charts on the Internet that provide suggested pilot and shank hole sizes for both production and traditional wood screws and for hardwood vs. softwood. Here's an example of such a chart, whose link I found on the Wood Magazine website. It includes silhouettes of typical traditional and production wood screws, so you can see the difference, along with pilot and shank hole sizes.

http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/pdf/screwchart.pdf

However, I can't say if the hole sizes listed in this or any other chart would be appropriate for every screw product, material, or other situation. You should still contact the specific screw manufacturer to see exactly what they recommend in terms of pilot hole sizes (and shank clearance hole sizes if needed). While you have their attention, you could ask them what they think would be the most appropriate fastener for your application. That might sound like nit-picking, but a five-minute phone call can avoid a lot of problems.

By the way, some screws may be manufactured with a feature that is supposed to eliminate the need for drilling pilot holes, or maybe eliminate the need in some materials and not others. While I think it's a good feature, I'm not convinced that such a feature is always a perfect substitute for pilot holes. In some situations, maybe. That's something else that you could ask about when contacting a manufacturer. I've discussed this with some professional carpenters, but have not heard consistent opinions about it.
Thanks Indy, I'll be starting on a floating dock soon.
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Thanks Indy, I'll be starting on a floating dock soon.

PM me when you get ready to start, and I'll be glad to throw in my .02 worth.

Also, I updated my previous post in this thread with more details and observations about fasteners, in case it's of interest.
Gotta' love pondboss....calling the fastener manufacturer to discuss shank clearance dimensions in a pilot hole. That has to be an entirely new dimension of taking things to the extreme! grin
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Gotta' love pondboss....calling the fastener manufacturer to discuss shank clearance dimensions in a pilot hole. That has to be an entirely new dimension of taking things to the extreme! grin

Yeah, I know. grin I suppose I tend to be very detail-oriented...drives my wife nuts sometimes. I'm into things like restoring historic homes and antique vehicles, machine-shop work, archaeological investigations, etc., and my attention to detail tends to carry over into things like dock construction...not that it's a bad thing to get the small things right, of course.

By the way, I think I've noticed a comparable level of attention to minutiae in some PB forum discussions on things like, for example, fish feeding strategies or types of algae in ponds, etc. I figure it's all relative... smile

Now, if you want to see some extreme attention to detail, look at some wood boat-building forums. I pale into insignificance in comparison to the obsession with details that I've seen in some of their discussions, even on fasteners.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Gotta' love pondboss....calling the fastener manufacturer to discuss shank clearance dimensions in a pilot hole. That has to be an entirely new dimension of taking things to the extreme! grin


I hear you, Spark! Anything with doing is worth doing obsessively.
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Gotta' love pondboss....calling the fastener manufacturer to discuss shank clearance dimensions in a pilot hole. That has to be an entirely new dimension of taking things to the extreme! grin


I hear you, Spark! Anything with doing is worth doing obsessively.

Bocomo, I just viewed your pond project thread, and let me say that I'm very impressed with your data gathering and recording. Talk about attention to detail...wow! I'm guessing that it all might be leading up to some kind of manifesto or magnum opus on the subject. With such a systematic approach, you'd probably make a good archaeologist (that's a compliment, by the way).
Originally Posted By: Ancient One
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Gotta' love pondboss....calling the fastener manufacturer to discuss shank clearance dimensions in a pilot hole. That has to be an entirely new dimension of taking things to the extreme! grin


I hear you, Spark! Anything with doing is worth doing obsessively.

Bocomo, I just viewed your pond project thread, and let me say that I'm very impressed with your data gathering and recording. Talk about attention to detail...wow! I'm guessing that it all might be leading up to some kind of manifesto or magnum opus on the subject. With such a systematic approach, you'd probably make a good archaeologist (that's a compliment, by the way).

Thank you for reading and for the compliment. I'm a scientist, so I do love data and charts. We don't really have a budget for electrofishing or a total pond rehab, so rod and reel management is really our only option. It has been a fun project and our bass are definitely getting bigger.
Posted By: RAH Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 09/13/15 11:56 PM
What field of science?
Originally Posted By: RAH
What field of science?


I am a cancer researcher. I have a background in biochemistry but now I do mostly biology.
Ancient One, just you don't feel like you are the only one in the room, I measure the minor diameter of the screws with a dial caliper to correctly size the holes.......
Originally Posted By: esshup
Ancient One, just you don't feel like you are the only one in the room, I measure the minor diameter of the screws with a dial caliper to correctly size the holes.......


What?!?! You don't use the three wire method when measuring thread? Savages! grin laugh
Originally Posted By: esshup
Ancient One, just you don't feel like you are the only one in the room, I measure the minor diameter of the screws with a dial caliper to correctly size the holes.......

Excellent. Maybe we had the same shop teacher. smile My teacher in junior high always had a caliper tucked inside his pocket protector, and he had some little saying or poem for almost every shop activity to help us remember the steps. The problem is I can't remember the poem he had for measuring wood screws for predrilling. confused All I recall is that it had the words 'root' and 'shank' and something 'stank,' and something to remind us to adjust for hardwood or softwood. He was a great guy and very wood-savvy, even if he wasn't a great poet.

Do they still have shop classes in public schools these days? Or is it considered too dangerous now?
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: esshup
Ancient One, just you don't feel like you are the only one in the room, I measure the minor diameter of the screws with a dial caliper to correctly size the holes.......


What?!?! You don't use the three wire method when measuring thread? Savages! grin laugh

Ah, now that conjures up memories of my metal shop class. Actually, I've been known to use the three-wire method when I've been threading on my lathe and couldn't find the correct thread micrometer to check the pitch diameter. Usually, however, it's easier for me to find where I left a thread micrometer than where I left the little calibrated wires. If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that small things are easier to lose than big things, and that shiny things are pretty. crazy
Posted By: RAH Re: Using Nails for Floating Dock Construction - 09/14/15 10:12 AM
Cancer research is a really important area of study!
Originally Posted By: Ancient One
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: esshup
Ancient One, just you don't feel like you are the only one in the room, I measure the minor diameter of the screws with a dial caliper to correctly size the holes.......


What?!?! You don't use the three wire method when measuring thread? Savages! grin laugh

Ah, now that conjures up memories of my metal shop class. Actually, I've been known to use the three-wire method when I've been threading on my lathe and couldn't find the correct thread micrometer to check the pitch diameter. Usually, however, it's easier for me to find where I left a thread micrometer than where I left the little calibrated wires. If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that small things are easier to lose than big things, and that shiny things are pretty. crazy


Yep, and holding on to those wires while trying to get a measurement could be pretty frustrating.

I've mentioned this here several times before, but I'll toss it out there again as this topic has brought it to the forefront of my memory. Dennis was my friend and mentor, one of those rare individuals who could do nearly anything, and do it very well indeed.

Tool and die maker by profession, hot rod builder, black powder enthusiast, (real black powder, pyrodex was blasphemy), hunter, trapper, wilderness survival, blacksmith extraordinaire, top notch mechanic till the day he died, just a wealth of knowledge rolled up in an old country boy's frame.

I don't remember what we were working on the day he bestowed this little nugget upon me, but I know his advice resonates within me today as loudly as it did then.

"Son, the most important thing you have to learn is something I can't teach you. You have to learn and appreciate the meaning of good enough. Every job you take on requires you to do your best, but not every job requires your best work. There's a subtle difference there, and you need to learn how to distinguish it. It's a hard thing, and some fellows never figure it out. Don't spend a week redesigning a paper clip when the old one holds your notes together just fine."


Haven't mastered it by any means, but I'm working on it.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't remember what we were working on the day he bestowed this little nugget upon me, but I know his advice resonates within me today as loudly as it did then.

"Son, the most important thing you have to learn is something I can't teach you. You have to learn and appreciate the meaning of good enough. Every job you take on requires you to do your best, but not every job requires your best work. There's a subtle difference there, and you need to learn how to distinguish it. It's a hard thing, and some fellows never figure it out. Don't spend a week redesigning a paper clip when the old one holds your notes together just fine."

Haven't mastered it by any means, but I'm working on it.
I think that's excellent basic advice, which I usually try to follow. After all, if I always put my 'best' work into every one of my projects, I wouldn't get very many projects done, so I generally try to prioritize how I spend my time, effort, and money.

However, I tend to be a perfectionist in many ways, so I sometimes 'gild the lily,' and I'll admit that I like attention to detail, since 'details are not always details,' especially when a multiplying factor exists that could compound small mistakes. Deck screws might be a good example, since a typical dock/deck might involve more than a thousand screws, and if every one was installed 'slightly' wrong, there might be a higher percentage of problems during installation or later on.

But I'll be the first to admit that I overdo some things. A good example was a house that we once had in a small coastal town in Maine. It was a wreck when we bought it, and we spent a lot of time and money renovating it. We paid great attention to detail, and kept adding nice features to the house until it was quite a little showplace. However, when it came time to sell it, we found that we made the mistake of improving it so far beyond the standard of the neighborhood that we had to take quite a beating on the sales price.

That said, sometimes it's kind of fun to 'over-engineer' things, just for the challenge and satisfaction involved, if nothing else. I probably over-engineered the floating dock that I just built in several respects, such as the strut connection and cross-bracing approaches that I came up with, but I had fun doing it, and I must say that it works great, but would I recommend those approaches to everyone? Probably not. Too much work and complexity to be practical for the average user, although someone might not mind putting in the extra time and effort.
Very true, there often exists a need to balance the budget, the allotted time, AND the compulsion. That's a tough one, and my experience is that a little flexibility in one or more areas is often required. After some years owning my business, I have come to the realization that my interpretation of doing the job "right", isn't always the best fit for every piece of equipment or situation.

Sometimes, good enough is exactly what the customer wants and needs. In many cases, the equipment in question has seen extended heavy use with little to no maintenance involved. When it reaches my shop and the customer informs me to "look it over and do whatever it needs", I just smile. Do they realize that I'm going to see things, components, issues, etc that they never even knew existed? Very likely not. Should I have them sign a blank check and attach it to their workorder, with the promise that I will call them when the machine is brand new again? I suppose I could, but I normally just spend a little additional time talking with them, prioritizing and getting a feel for their concerns.

By doing so, have I done my best, or my best work? I've looked the machine over, made sure it operates safely, and corrected those issues of most relevance towards the desired outcome. And I've taken pains to do my best work, while remaining within the confines of realistic practice for that particular machine and circumstance.

Now if working for oneself, and time and finances are not a hindrance, then the sky may be the limit. And I have seen some amazingly beautiful as well as top notch work come from such endeavors. But I don't believe that such outcomes automatically equate to the best, or only way to achieve perfectly acceptable results. That's what I believe Dennis is still trying to teach me, even after all these years.
So, sprkplug, what line of business are you in?
I service and repair a variety of outdoor power equipment. Nearly all of my shirts have charred holes in them from welding overhead, my daily cologne is a curious blend of fermented grass, two stroke exhaust, and stanisol. My ears ring from the near-constant assault of the blade grinder. My hands bleed from various cuts suffered while handling rewind springs worn sharp in their housings, and I have an impressive collection of metal shards pulled from various anatomical regions.

And then there are aspects which are not nearly as glamorous. The phone calls from network executives desperate to introduce me to reality television, dealing with the multitudes of women who are attracted to middle aged, balding, greasy/dirty service technicians, and the back-breaking work of hauling all that money into the bank every single day.

It's hell. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. wink laugh
Yeah Tony; I have the same problem. It's worse when you're a card carrying Redneck Texan.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I service and repair a variety of outdoor power equipment. Nearly all of my shirts have charred holes in them from welding overhead, my daily cologne is a curious blend of fermented grass, two stroke exhaust, and stanisol. My ears ring from the near-constant assault of the blade grinder. My hands bleed from various cuts suffered while handling rewind springs worn sharp in their housings, and I have an impressive collection of metal shards pulled from various anatomical regions.

And then there are aspects which are not nearly as glamorous. The phone calls from network executives desperate to introduce me to reality television, dealing with the multitudes of women who are attracted to middle aged, balding, greasy/dirty service technicians, and the back-breaking work of hauling all that money into the bank every single day.

It's hell. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. wink laugh

I've added ventilation to lots of shirts with welding pinholes...sometimes larger than pinholes. I have a couple of flame-resistant jackets, but they're approaching the end of their service life. I recently told myself, "time for some new threads, man," in my best late-60s jargon. Maybe my wife will buy me a new welding jacket before I go up in smoke.

I actually had a brief line or two in an old documentary TV show about Petra, Jordan, where I did a couple of seasons of excavation work, but that's about as far as I got with my delusions of a glamorous Hollywood lifestyle. Today, I find solace among my machines...my silent (except when they're running) companions who listen patiently as I mutter about the state of the world.

Not to beat a cliché to death, but I'll bet you love the smell of diesel smoke in the morning. wink
I'm always amazed at how my shirt can be blazing away, flames and all, while I'm completely oblivious behind the welding helmet.
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm always amazed at how my shirt can be blazing away, flames and all, while I'm completely oblivious behind the welding helmet.



BUT, let one dingelberry fall on the cloth tennis shoes you are wearing right above where your toes attach to your foot and you start doing a one foot hop while shaking the other foot rather quickly!!
Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm always amazed at how my shirt can be blazing away, flames and all, while I'm completely oblivious behind the welding helmet.



BUT, let one dingelberry fall on the cloth tennis shoes you are wearing right above where your toes attach to your foot and you start doing a one foot hop while shaking the other foot rather quickly!!


From experience, I can tell you that not wearing a welding apron, when crouching like a baseball catcher, and welding something pretty thick just about eye-level, with an old red Tombstone, can have some pretty devastating and painful effects in places under the zipper of a man's front pants zipper.
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