Had a new SMB reproduction pond built last Fall - it's .05 ac maxium depth of 8'. I built the pond with 3 goals in mind:

1. Reduced size to allow for easier concentration of brood fish for removal and maximize my YOY population. In my larger SMB repro pond it was difficult to target all brood fish for removal, and they hammered my YOY population regardless of how many times I fed them. In my experience they develop a preference for cannibalism rather quickly and refused pellets as the Summer progressed. Eventually I removed all but 1 adult fish, but I know my YOY numbers suffered greatly.

2. Reduced size allows for easier concentration of YOY and feed training efforts. In the larger pond, the YOY SMB were scattered, and getting them to train on AM 400 was difficult as they were never concentrated and I had a lot of wasted food sink. The additional nutrients from wasted pellets lead to vegetation issues as the season progressed, forcing me to treat with Whitecap. I'm hopeful with a pond 80% smaller I'll have less wasted food, and will successfully pellet train more YOY SMB.

3. Simplified collection efforts. Seining ponds requires recruiting friends every Fall, and it's a lot of hard work for everyone involved pulling seines all day. Thanks to Omaha, Shorty, Bullhead and Bruce this last year was our most effective collection - but asking for a team of five to give up an afternoon every year makes me feel guilty. With the guidance of Cecil, Lusk and Otto, the new SMB pond was designed to allow me to collect YOY SMB solo with no seines required.

Here's a shot of the new pond to be:



Installing the 8" drain:





I didn't glue the 90 or the standpipe in order to allow me to use it to gradually fluctuate the depth by shifting the standpipe incrementally below the surface, maybe a foot at a time. The entire pond is sloped so the lowest point in the pond is located at the drain to facilitate easy draining and fish collection. More on this later.







On the backside I had a 10x10x5 hole dug to serve as my collection basin. I also installed a gate valve to enable me to control the flow or use in an emergency to stop the water. I can collect fish here in a couple ways. First, I can install netting on the backside of the basin to allow water to flow through, but prevent SMB from escaping and collect from the basin with nets when it's drained. I can also put a 45 elbow at the end of the drain and have it flow into a 5' diameter horse tank which I'd install in the basin. I'd cover the top with some heavy metal mesh, and on the backside of the horse tank screen a 8" drain to allow the water to flow through. The first method is cheaper, but I worry about trying to collect fish in a muddy and turbid collection basin full of water. I'll likely opt for the second option - I think 500-1,000 4-6" SMB will fit nicely in a 5' diameter x 3' deep horse tank without issues.





Here's the pond's first breath of water - I filled it so could check for leaks - she appears to hold tight all Fall.

New SMB Reproduction Pond continued...

Collection effort thought process:

I chose to install an 8" pipe, which may seem overkill, but wanted to ensure all fish could easily fit without injury, and also allow for fast draining.

Originally I thought I'd simply pull the standpipe and allow the pond to drain, water and SMB together. After speaking with Bob and Cecil, they both harbored concerns with the head pressure blasting the SMB into the holding tank or collection basin and causing injury. So, it seemed a good idea to control the head pressure by being able to adjust the draining with an adjustable standpipe. I left the 90 elbow and standpipe well greased and unglued to allow me to swing the standpipe incrementally beneath the pond surface, maybe 1 - 2 feet at a time. With this in mind, at draining time I'll close the gate valve, top the standpipe with a perferated cap to prevent any SMB from flowing through, swing the standpipe until it's 1-2 feet below the surface, then open the gate. I'll leave my extension on the backside to allow all that water to flow down into the draw of my main pond.



I'll repeat this process, 1-2 feet at a time, until I'm down to about 2' depth. At this point I'll shut the gate valve, remove the extension outflow pipe, and attach the 45 elbow to flow into my collection horse tank. I'll attach the extension flow pipe to the backside of the horse tank to allow overflow, then head back and remove the standpipe and 90 elbow from the pond bottom. All that's left to do at this point is open the gate valve and let it rip. The head pressure should be relieved and much less stress on the SMB headed to the collection tank. I'll go back topside with a net to collect any stranded SMB until the pond is drained. I'll leave the SMB YOY in the collection tank aerated until point of transfer with minimal handling stress as I will not have touched these fish 3-4x as in the past [seining, into buckets, sorted, then into tanks].





So far I've tested draining the pond and all has worked well. The only issues I'm anticipating are:

Standpipe removal - Drilling a 2" hole through the top of the pipe and gluing a 24" piece of 2" PCV to act as handles to allow me a grip to twist and remove.

Elbow removal - This could prove muddy and messy job - going to have to wrestle it until she's free - will be easier with the 90 to grab onto than the standpipe which allows no leverage without handles.

Collection tank - I was worried about pressing fish against the top net and outlet net, but I'm hopeful they'll keep low and out of current and suffer as little damage possible in the tank. I think the 8" drain pipe will prevent them from being pressed against the top netting, just worried about the outflow. I can control the flow with my gate valve and slow it down as much as necessary, however.

Josh, Steve, Bruce and Richard you're still free to come out during collection time, but you won't need your waders! Beers are on me. Feedback?

How new is this? Is this the one just above your others or is this even newer? Doesn't look like the one I saw, but maybe that's because it was a different time.

And don't you be feeling guilty. I know I won't when I'm cracking the whip at my place.

Very nice! The shallower pond makes perfect sense.

Have you thought about adding some easily removable type of structure in the pond so your YOY SMB can escape and hide from your brood fish?

From Brettski's pond project.

Last Fall. Right next to the former SMB pond - to the West.

What about using a longer flexible pipe for your stand pipe on a float and weighted. Or you could even bring it right to the bank. My concern is that you start draining and your unglued pvc pipe slips out and drains your whole pond.
Other then that I like it.

It looks good to me. The only thing that would make me nervous is the unglued elbow and standpipe.....although I can't imagine any scenario that would cause them to come off without your direct intervention.

You and me both, sparkie.
TJ, I had a similar design on a larger scale with nearly disastrous results. I wasn't even intending to have an unsealed pipe, pond guy missed one seal. As the wall settled, it spread a bit laterally, putting pressure on the base of the standpipe, and eventually pushed it off the drain pipe. Ever try to push a telephone pole into a 12" drainpipe against a 15' head with a tractor in 34 degree water? I'm here to tell you it can be done-but I wouldn't want to do it again!!

Yolk, did that situation require the use of motivational language? And if so, did the grass on the backside of the dam ever grow back??

Yes, that's what I thought, too - but the tight fit plus water pressure prevents the pipe from being separated without a heculean effort. Even greased thoroughly it's nearly impossible to get the sections to separate - 8" pipe is a lot harder to manipulate than 1, 2, 4, etc. Combine that with the fact I have the gate valve which will remain shut whenever the pond is filled as extra insurance and I think I've addressed that with the backup in case of emergency. Getting the pipe to separate is actually my greatest concern at this point...the standpipe remained perpendicular the entire winter despite 50 mph winds and shifting ice. I left it in all winter with the pond filled to make sure it didn't need to be secured somehow with ropes anchored to the sides of the pond. Funny thing is, you can't get it underwater when it's filled with air if you wanted to, too bouyant. I have to run a hose to fill the standpipe first, then it's heavy enough to tip beneath the water surface. You should have seen me straddle the pipe trying to get it to sink the first few times...total frustrating, muddy and ice cold wader filled mystery until I figured out it needed to be filled with water first before it would sink below the surface.

I need to fish harder for the SMB to remove the brood fish, and also and going to stock fewer brood fish and take my chances. I only need one pair to nest to provide all the YOY I need, so I'm thinking about limiting numbers to 8 confirmed sex SMB to ease in removal.

I'll post photos of my beds - the pallets, rocks, and PVC provide tons of places for the SMB YOY to escape - so I should be ok. Still, adding some removable structure is added security while the brood fish are still present. Good idea.

I can honestly report that I used words and phrases previously directed only at green sunfish and the IRS.

TJ, sounds like you've thought this through, and experimented with it....my experience requires me to be a little skeptical, but since this is a growout pond rather than a several acre BOW, there's not much to lose, even if something does go wrong. Especially since the phrase "I told you so" has been outlawed amongst the bretheren and is legal only when deployed by spouses.

TJ, with all the focus on brood/grow out ponds lately, we need a sticky with different methods, goals, and if the results worked.

Yours is interesting to me because it's almost verbatim what I was wanting to do this fall. I was planning to drain it a little differently, but the same pipe and sliding gate valves as yours.

Keep us in the loop on the results, because my seining helper still isn't very happy with me right now. I'm looking for a more marriage friendly method of getting fish from one pond to another.

Good job.

Not fair to keep relying on the backs of my buddies...although many thanks to them, especially Josh who has never missed a seining event yet, come hell or high water. And Bruce hasn't missed many either, and they're his seines! Thanks dudes! It's a very round world...can't wait to get rolling on your place.

Interesting choice of words.

I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. But now I have fancy new waders I need to justify buying.

A local hatchery near me uses that type of drain, only his are 6". He tethers his with ropes to keep them upright. They seem to work okay for him for the last 7 years.

Not sure if that would make much difference. From my limited experience with smallmouth production they didn't have any fear of the brood fish. In fact they seemed pretty stupid.

If that's the case have you ever considered allowing them to do their thing sequestered from the smaller fish via a blocking net or even a cage with a tub of gravel in it? I know bass have been spawned in a raceway so...

Then once the fry hatch and move out of the net or cage that keeps the brood fish in, it's an easy matter of removing the broodfish.

I plan on doing this with bluegill this year and as you know have been doing it with yellow perch for a couple of years now.

Very good idea Cecil!

What about seining out the brood fish with a larger mesh seine?
Drop the water level below the SMB beds, seine the broodstock out and top off the pond?

Awesome project TJ... Can't wait to see the results!

Another good idea!

Reminds me of how they harvest paddle fish in small lakes. Use a mesh that is too big for all other fish. But in this case they harvest for keeps with a large mesh gill net.

No thank you to seining. Never again, unless it's for entertainment purposes!

I love the cage idea for SMB, but the pond is so small already, not sure how it would work. Area caged around the beds would have to be awfully small.

TJ,seining doesn't have to be a 3 ringed circus. Take it easy and slow, have the correct size seine, and if the pond is designed properly, it's easy to do.

How about a blocking net around individual spawning beds?

Calling all my handy brethren [Spark, Scott, Al, Bski, et al]...

The good news: Finished moving all rock [by hand] from former SMB beds to the new SMB reproduction ponds and she's ready to fill.

The bad news: As you might recall I was having issues removing the 8' long 8" standpipe from the 90 elbow - we couldn't get a grip on it to twist or pull even though it's greased well. Punched a 2" hole through the top of the pipe and fit a 2' stick of 2" PVC to act as a handle. Gave it all we had, didn't budge! I think the standpipe is so heavy and is flexing as we're trying to twist and we cannot remove. As you might recall, this essentially defeats the entire purpose of the SMB solo collection efforts. I have obviously used too large diameter standpipe, but I wanted to ensure the fish would not be injured during their short journey to the collection tank.

I have to figure a fix over the next few months. Here are the only ideas coming to mind - hopeful someone can shed their experience and provide some solutions.

1. Cut the standpipe into 24" sections and use unglued, greased couplers when I piece it back together. The smaller pieces will be lighter and easier to pull apart/disassemble. Problem - will the joints/couplers leak? Also, how will I grip to twist/remove?

2. Anyone with strap wrench experience? I see they make them large enough to fit 8", think this might be the tool I'm missing to enable me to twist the pipe?

Any feedback is appreciated - and if the strap wrench is the ticket, any suggestions on models/brands/online sources?

Thanks in advance guys...

You can try a strap wrench, but my money would be on a chain wrench. It uses a heavier version of a bicycle chain and can be made longer. A strap wrench now is made from plastic and a rubber strap. Try rocking the standpipe back and forth as you try to twist it, and also pick up on it if possible at the same time.

For the future, (I don't know if they make one large enough for you, but a plumbing supply house would know):

There are rubber sleeves that have a large hose clamp on each end. I've seen them where one end is larger than the other too. If I could find one in the correct size, I would use that in connecting the standpipe to the elbow. I'd drive a stake in the pond bottom and somehow tie the standpipe to the stake to keep it upright, the rubber sleeve won't be stiff enough to hole the standpipe upright by itself for a long period of time. With the sleeve, you aren't putting the standpipe into the elbow. The hose clamps are stainless, and even after being underwater for 2 years you can still get a wrench on them. If you are draining the pond every year, I'd replace them once a year just because you could.

2nd thought. If you didn't want to go swimming to remove the rubber sleeve, put a "T" in the horizontal pipe before the 90° elbow and use a valve that you can open without getting wet.

One thing to consider about "swimming" around drains is the suction can be very powerful and very dangerous. All it takes is an arm or leg pulled into a drain and trapped under water and you're done for. I know trout farmer's son that was working around one and was nearly drowned.

Let me think about it but yeah 8 inch was too big. Also very heavy which is probably why the pipe is wedged on there so hard. You might as well have glued it. Perhaps when you do get it pulled apart attach an adapter and back it off to a 4 inch stand pipe?

Or you could use a flexible hose and set the intake at the height you want the water level

Ugh! TJ, is the standpipe also going to be used as an overflow drain as well?

I guess I'm asking does the riser need to be a predetermined height?

An idea FWIW, assuming you can remove the 2" handle you built;

1. 45 off one end of a 10' 4x4 post.
2 Attach a scissor jack to the top of the other end of the 4x4.
3. Slide post/jack assembly into the 8" pipe. Seat the 45 angle of post with PVC elbow.
4. Hook into one of the 2" holes with a rachet strap. Run the strap over the jack and hook into the other 2" hole. Tighten the rachet strap.
5. With the stap centered over the jack, raise the jack. The post will push on the elbow as the strap pulls the 8" pipe.

Good responses guys, I've considered them all and have come up with the following plan - feel free to shoot holes in these, that's how I'll learn.

I need to remove the standpipe, so I'm trying two things:

1. Buying strap wrench to use close to the elbow and hopefully get her spinning.

2. If I cannot remove, I'll cut it off and work on 12" of pipe instead of 8'. I'm sure we can extracate a smaller length of pipe.

For the future, I'm planning on installing a 8"x4" bushing at the elbow. 4" pipe isn't ideal for fast draining, but since I'm not sending any fish through the standpipe, it's an acceptable compromise. I'll use a perforated cap for the standpipe and while it will drain slowly, it will still drain and be much easier to manipulate and remove when it's time to open it up to drain.

I really like the other ideas, but this makes the most sense in terms of minimal labor in my mind.

Thoughts?

TJ, did you fill the standpipe full of water and still couldn't get it to move?

TJ, what about a slide gate near the outlet to control the drain rate and keep you out of the water? I'm dumb, just looked back and saw you had already installed the slide gate.

I was thinking about the perforated cap also, but leave it at the level you would ultimately want the pond drained to.

Standpipe pivots fine, I just can't get it separated from the elbow!

Stupid question: Why do you need to separate it from the elbow? Shouldn't you be able to move if from the vertical to drain the pond?

Standpipe is designed to pivot on the elbow, allowing me to drain a foot at a time to relieve head pressure. No fish are supposed to be moving through the standpipe - it will be capped. Once I drain down far enough, I pull the stanpipe and elbow to drain the pond entirely, fish and all, into collection tank behind the dam.

You play with it any more today?

Just a thought, but perhaps you could remove the stand pipe all together and replace it with a removable trash guard. You could incrementally drain the pond with the gate valve.(I think "Fire Is Hot" eluded to this idea in his last post) I wouldn't think that it would take very long to drop the water level a significant amount via an 8 inch drain pipe.


As far as removing the stand pipe from the 90 ell. Good luck! I ran some large bore PVC pipe on a job some years ago and hope to never do it again. I recall separating stuck fittings by way of using a large heavy file or rasp. I would hold on to the end of the file and lay it perpendicular across the pipe about 2 foot away from the fitting, and then slide it with moderate force, repeatedly striking the protruding edge of the fitting, alternately moving around the circumference of the pipe to prevent the fitting from getting cockeyed, and binding. You could probably use a sharp cornered piece of flat bar or something similar in place of a file. In your case, you might try removing the 90 from the horizontal pipe first, with the standpipe still attached, and then remove the 90 from the standpipe. Try having someone rock the standpipe back and forth (not side to side) while you firmly but gently rap the throat of the 90 with a 4x4 piece of lumber. Or, if you have room, use the file/flat bar method. It also helps to squarely cut the pipe, and bevel the ends with a file or grinder, before assembly.

Good luck. Looks like an interesting project.

Shouldn't it be easier to remove the stand pipe once the pond is drained down? You're not having any problems pivoting the stand pipe right? Just removing.the stand pipe?

Good thoughts on the pipe removal - we'll get her figured out hopefully this week yet.

Gate valves can't stand up to that kind of pressure over time, but a ball valve can. Unfortunately an 8" ball valve is either non existent or cost prohibitive, but did consider this route at the onset. Another problem using screens is that they quickly become clogged with FA, pondweed, etc. I know this from experience. Freeing a clogged drain 8' down is a real PITA especially when one has to repeat it several times!

I pieced this idea together from Cecil, Mike Otto and Bob Lusk feedback, and added a few of my own twists. Apparently no one thought the 8" standpipe would cause an issue...I think necking down to 4" will be much simpler in the future...I'm almost there!

I drained the pond, still won't budge/twist. I'll get her done this week, replace with 4" standpipe, cap it and we'll be ready to fill and get brood fish stocked.

If it were me I might be tempted to use a little sandpaper on the fittings to loosen them up a bit before changing the pipe size.