Does anybody know where I can get some accurate information on Pumpkingills (BG x PS)?

I am looking for any and all info as long as it is factual.

Thanks!

Bill D.

Try Illinois Natural History. There was someone over there that was doing research on large natural hybrids of the two species in southern
Canadian lakes.

I mounted one once that would have tied the world record for a pumpkinseed hybrid if it was deemed one. Unfortunately was never able to get the DNA tested although I was promised that by the researcher at INH. He suddenly stopped returning my emails or phone calls.

Thanks Cecil. I am finding some interesting info using your INH tip.

Not sure what you're looking for, but esteemed outdoor writer and angler Jim Gronaw has some nice photos here:

http://bigbluegill.com/group/pumpkinseed...bluegill-hybrid

Some photos from other BBG members included also. Jim claims a severe male bias on the p-gill hybrids, similar apparently to the gillcracker hybrids



Some taxidermy work by the talented Tim Overbaugh:

http://bigbluegill.com/photo/bluepumpkin-hybrid-replica?xg_source=activity

Thanks Tony,

Great pics. I hope to give Cecil a p-gill trophy to mount for me someday.

I am getting similar info on other sites. Seems the p-gill hybrid is predominately male and grows faster than either parent species. From what I've read so far, the p-gill will get larger than a PS but not as large as a BG. The cross is usually/always? a male PS with a female BG.

Since we have both PS and BG in the pond, I am hoping to get some.

I've caught them in Northern Wisconsin in a large natural lake. IIRC they were about 7" long give or take an inch.

Cecil,

Do you remember any of the stats on what the world record p-gill is?

There wasn't one, but they said they would make a category if it was verified as one. I had one biologist say it was a pumpkinseed as far as he was concerned when he keyed it out, gill rakers etc. while another arrogant one that didn't get within 10 feet said it was a hybrid. The arrogant one was walking into the building and wasn't even interested in looking at it.

So that was the dilemma without DNA.

It was a dead ringer for a pumpkinseed, but didn't have the red tab. The biologist that keyed it as a pumpkinseed said it may have just been it was an old fish.

It was one pound 6 ounces and would have tied the world record if it was indeed a pumpkinseed.

Bill, I would not be surprised to find out the quick growth is temporary, and early on in the fish's growth cycle if it's anything like other lepomid hybrids.

That is what I think too. From what I have been able to find out so far from the info available (and there's not much), the cross will probably outgrow a pure PS but pure BG will overtake them in size at some point. This might be an interesting study for me to do since I have the fish available. I would need to figure out how to accurately document the development from spawn of the cross vs a control group of both PS and BG. Maybe the mini ponds TJ and I discussed would be useful.

I would need to get a fish biologist interested in the study to assist and validate the results. Not easy as nobody seems to really care except me and the very few other PS lovers out there. Dang pretty fish! I may just do it for my own info.

Edit: If nothing else, the study might provide me valuable info on identifying a hybrid from the parent which seems to be a an issue of debate and confusion.

Bill,

I considered producing pumpkinseeds for the taxidermy market until I realized most taxidermists shy away from them as they are really tough to paint.

Lucky for me then that I know a Master Taxidermist in Indiana that I'm sure would not balk at the challenge should I ever raise a trophy one!

The Illinois state record for a PS is 11.2 oz. There is no Illinois record for a pumpkingill.

The North America record for a PS is 2 lbs 4 oz caught in SC

Must have been caught after the one I mentioned. The 1 lb. 6 oz. fish was caught at least 5 years ago maybe 10.

Is there a picture of the 2 lb. 4 oz. fish?

Might be one out there if you google for awhile. I got my info from:

http://www.ifishillinois.org/awards/record_fish.pdf

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/fish/freshrecs/records.html

Interesting ....wikipedia and a couple other sites say world record is 1 lb 6 oz

Never havin caught a record fish, I don't know how the process works. I know in Illinois, you have to apply and provide proof for recognition of a state record fish. Do the world record people just pick up on that info or does an angler have to apply for recognition as a world record? Is it possible for a state record to be bigger than the world record if the guy doesn't fill out the right paperwork?

I guess a state record can be bigger than the world record.

The IGFA has the world record PS as 1 lb 6 oz.

http://wrec.igfa.org/WRecordsList.aspx?lc=AllTackle&cn=Pumpkinseed

The official SC record of 2 lbs 4 oz blows that clear out of the water.

Edit: I sent an e-mail to the IGFA record coordinator asking why this is the case.

Don't even get me started on record fish. Caught one and it was a disappointing experience. Also got grief from jealous anglers for catching it in a pond.

But I have it mounted in an icefishing scene, in a glass case, in the studio, and it's my personal experience that I cherish. Official records can go caca.

I got this reply from IGFA:

"Perhaps the catch was not made, or documented, in a manner that would make it an IGFA record. This is most likely why the South Carolina state record pumpkinseed is bigger than the IGFA record.

That said, it could be that the anglers were completely unaware of the IGFA, and therefore never submitted the documentation."


So I learned something new today. I had assumed all these record keepers had an interactive relationship but not so. IGFA World Record does not necessarily mean biggest ever documented.

PS X BG crosses can be common in northern ponds. More so than natural RES X BG crosses in southern ponds.

Ewest,

Thanks. Makes me wonder why there is not a ton of info out there. Maybe because the cross has no exceptional attributes? The only info I have found, or at least inferred, is that the cross has potential to reach average size larger than PS average size and is mostly male. It also seems the cross retains the PS coloring which can make identfying the cross challenging.

Not saying the above is correct...Just my take on what I've read.

Definitely open to any corrections to this and any other info you or anybody else might have.

Bill, I think a lot of people can't really ID fish correctly. I've seen GSF and RES called bluegills or it's a "sunfish". That encompasses anything that is not a bass, pike, catfish or perch. Unless you are in Texas, then it could be a "purch".

I'd better be careful or I'll be hung in a few weeks!!!

I think Esshup nailed it. There are a lot of folks who simply see that splash of red and declare it a redear. And those that do recognize it as a PS, still aren't familiar with the hybrids of either species.

You'll be fine man. I hear they are just a bunch of fun loving guys.....but I wouldn't go on any late night boat rides!

My plan is to take several pics of my original BG and PS stockers next summer. I am thinking that if I do get the cross, I will have a baseline on the original genetic features for later comparison.

It was Al that went on the boat ride, and that was in Nebraska!! (it was a VERY short lived boat ride for Al)

Here are 2 pics of confirmed PS X BG crosses via WiscFish. A great site for lepomis crosses except RES as they are not present in Wisc (at least not the site).

Thanks. IMO Not as pretty as a pure PS. Maybe their coloring is not developed yet as they apper to be young fish.

PSxBG caught in Wisconsin.


PS from same lake


Sorry for the terrible hybrid pic. It was taken with the phone, but the sun glare on the screen was terrible and that's what I got.

Still nice pics. I think I can see enough of the pumpkingill to note there is no orange at the opercular tab. Correct?

Still, none of the photos I can find online look like the fish from my youth fishing the back waters of the Flat Rock River. Those fish had none of the darker green coloration. Imagine a fish where you replace that darker green with a turqoise color blue. That's what we caught back then. They were small, maybe 5 to 6 inches and had a more platter shape.

Correct, no orange. That weekend I think there were 3 or 4 hybrids caught.

This forum has me second guessing everything I thought I knew about bluegill and redear! It looks like I have honestly caught very few pure strain bluegill or redear.I would say at this point most panfish were a hybrid cross or maybe just mutts(would that make them dogfish?)

Have you looked in the archives and seen the sunfish ID thread?

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

Esshup
I have looked through the sunfish ID thread.It just seems like growing up fishing several farm ponds and Monroe Reservoir we caught a lot of bluegill that were not really a true bluegill.
As I get closer to stocking my own pond I still struggle with the decision to stock BG or HBG!

What to stock in your pond will depend on your goals. If you want LMB in the pond to get to any size, then you will have to stock regular BG. If you want to grow large BG, then you could stock Hybrids and Hybrid Striped Bass, or stock regular or Hybrid BG with LMB, removing any LMB that gets over 14"-16".

Guys,

The more I read about Pumpkingills, the more I realize how abundant they are and how underappreciated they are. Is there a way we can honor this beautiful hybrid sunfish with an acronym in the PBF official acronym list?

What would it be PS X BG , PBG , PSBG other ?

I like PGS

PGS, the S would be for sunfish?
Could do PG, is their a PG already?
Or, Pgill

Yeah, the S would be sunfish. PG works too. There isn't one already.

PSBG is more self explanitory (if that makes any difference at all).

Or if you follow HBG and HSB naming practices you could say HPS., but as literature already idenfifies it by the common name of Pumpkingill, I support PG or PGS

PSBG is more self explanatory I agree, I'm not sure if shorter is better. I like the HPS as well as the H is important to notify us of hybrid and the PS tells what it is. I guess HPSBG would be most complete

Did the PB Forum at some point in the past engage in long conversations when all of the other abbreviations were decided on? Or was it a vote with majority rule or is their a standard someplace?

It is just done by one of the Mods or Admns.

So what do Pumpkingill eat. Do they compete with BG or do they compete with PS?...And then there is that infamous third choice of "it depends!"

Was there a decision to include an abbreviation into the standard list? What is the decided on abbreviation?

I'd like to learn more about pumpkingills as well, they would be neat to add to my pond if they overwintered as far North as Michigan.

I prefer PSBG or slightly better BGPS. The BG is the most commonly used acronym here, so the easily recognized BG as the first part quickly indicates to someone it is a probable combination or hybrid cross with a bluegill. Then they just have to figure out what PS means. PS is our standard acronym for pumpkinseed sunfish.

BGPS would have no issues wintering near anywhere in the upper Midwest. I doubt there is any scientific research into the diet preferences or feeding habits of them. My bet is they likely act more like BG than PS. However, PS aren't that different in food preferences and feeding behavior to BG, especially when compared to RES.

Done. Both species are found in lakes in Canada so no cold related issues. They do cross readily and are not uncommon.

Update on my quest for Pumpkingills (BGPS).....

Finally had a nice day today. Sunny and temps near 80. Water visibilty has improved some. Happy to report, when I threw a few handfulls of small pellets tonight, I could see many PS rising to feed. That means some of the 2 to 3 inch ones I stocked last fall made it thru the winter in my little puddle. I now have populations of BG and PS. The stage is set. Wish me luck! Hoping to see some BGPS recruits in fall of 2016!

Bill I caught a nice pumpkin seed out of a neighbors pond and accidentally dropped him into my pond.... Oops

Awesome! You have RES right? Any BG?

Hey Pat,

On the news tonight I see a lot of Texas folks could be in for some bad storms. You out of the path?

I am but the wife in pearland says it was like a hurricane wind and rain the rain guage overflowed, nada up here 150 miles north of there. Little sprinkle

Poopaloop the cat was scared with all the thunder