Pond Boss
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 04:36 PM
Time for a quiz on what you've learned here and the Pond Boss magazine.

The following is a picture of a bluegill that was presented for the "Fish Challenge" a special competition at the World Taxidermy Championships that will be in Illinois this year. The competitor has to mount a bluegill in the 6 1/2 to 8 inch size range and paint it exactly like the one in the photo.

Is it a male or female? And tell me why.

Have fun! grin

Hint: If you have no idea check the archives for a particular thread.



Posted By: rmedgar Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 04:50 PM
It's an invisible metro-sexual.
Why, because it likes to hide in the shadows and stay out of sight.
Posted By: Omaha Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 04:57 PM
This is hard! wink
Posted By: esshup Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 05:10 PM
Sorta like trying to paint a picture of a polar bear in a blizzard?
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 05:57 PM
Sorry gentlemen!blush I sure wouldn't want a food fight to break out! grin (In reference to no picture initially!)

Here's the picture:



Thanks for PMing me Scott!

Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 06:03 PM
I'd say M due to black scale tipping, and coloration, but opercular tab isn't really that large. My money is on Male.
Posted By: esshup Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 06:26 PM
I'm with TJ.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 07:47 PM
I'm with you guys too but a poster on the taxidermy website is questioning it's a male due to the short ear tab. My take on that is it's just one characteristic of a potential male and the other characteristics trump that in this case. I do have some definite males that don't have the longer ear tabs. Probably genetic.

You have to give him credit for noticing it. Most people don't have a clue. He's smarter than the average bear and does beautiful fish mounts.
Posted By: Bullhead Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 07:52 PM
Does the brow ridge mean anything, compared to this one that my daughter is holding?
Posted By: ewest Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 07:58 PM
From - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post157117

Lets start with BG. Here is the preeminent thread to see about Bill , Bruce and Cecil's PB mag article.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=103883&fpart=1














Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 08:02 PM
Eric...you almost lost us through the forest, but I'm here to say we need your vote!
Posted By: ewest Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 08:13 PM
Young male regular BG. IMO the ear tab is not short for that size fish.
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 08:27 PM
Young undernourished male.. Scale tipping, head shape, long but not as long as most male ear flap..
Posted By: jludwig Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 08:42 PM
Great information here!
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 09:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Young undernourished male.. Scale tipping, head shape, long but not as long as most male ear flap..


Undernorished? Sure you're not spoiled by the robust fish we produce with feed in our ponds? grin It looks typical for the bluegills I catch in the local lakes.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 09:50 PM
Only one aspect looks female-ish to me. I'm going with male also.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 10:47 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
I'd say M due to black scale tipping, and coloration, but opercular tab isn't really that large. My money is on Male.


That is my vote, but ...

... back in 1969, a good friend (friend-girl, not girl friend) took me to see a show in one of San Francisco's better known theatres.

We were both about 22. I was a "squid" going to school at Treasure Island, and she was a local. I knew her because her dad and I were good friends through several hobbies we had in common.

She took me to Finnochoi's. Whoa -- I was impressed, if that is the right word, about the dancers and entertainers. Fantastic show!

At the end of the show, the performers all came out to take a final bow.

Yeesh! All those beauties were guys!

So, I'll reserve judgement on that fish.

May that fish live a happy life, whether a friend of Barney Frank or Hugh Heffner.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/30/13 10:52 PM
Non-parental male.
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Young undernourished male.. Scale tipping, head shape, long but not as long as most male ear flap..


Undernorished? Sure you're not spoiled by the robust fish we produce with feed in our ponds? grin It looks typical for the bluegills I catch in the local lakes.


You could be right lol.. But it looked skinny and boney along its upper fin and thin/skinny "forehead".
Posted By: AaronM Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 12:12 AM
m.. but don't put it in your male only bg pond..

i'm assuming that isn't a csbg, right? just some random native bg?
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 12:27 AM
Looks native or northern too me..
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 01:07 AM
There is a 'fair amount' of variability in shape-size of the male BG ear flap depending on where they are collected. It does depend. The key item when sexing male and female BG is to see several mature males and females and hopefully different year classes from the same body of water at any one point in the annual cycle. That will give one a good indication of the characters of each sex of mature BG for that day/month.

Based on the above picture alone that bluegill is a male and like some have aptly noted probably a young mature male maybe his first spawning season. I base my ID on 1. prominant black scale tipping on nape extending backward toward the dorsal fin; 2. burnt orange gular color which is very rare on mature females; 3. dark pigmentation on on the webbing of the rear part of the soft dorsal, although it is not prominant; 4. body hue has some purple and other colors typical of many males in it; 5. gill flap shape is well within the variation of typical mature male BG. All the above features combine to indicate male leaving very little if any doubt in my mind. To bet big money on the sex or stock it as a male in my pond, I would have to see several males and females from the same pond.

CB1 send my post or a link to this thead to the poster on the taxidermy website questioning it's a male due to the short ear tab. IMO his problem is he is using basically only one feature to recognize male BG and not considering the whole package that characterizes a mature male BG.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 01:27 AM
Originally Posted By: AaronM
m.. but don't put it in your male only bg pond..

i'm assuming that isn't a csbg, right? just some random native bg?


Actually I don't know where it was caught. Most likely in the south though.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 01:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
There is a 'fair amount' of variability in shape-size of the male BG ear flap depending on where they are collected. It does depend. The key item when sexing male and female BG is to see several mature males and females and hopefully different year classes from the same body of water at any one point in the annual cycle. That will give one a good indication of the characters of each sex of mature BG for that day/month.

Based on the above picture alone that bluegill is a male and like some have aptly noted probably a young mature male maybe his first spawning season. I base my ID on 1. prominant black scale tipping on nape extending backward toward the dorsal fin; 2. burnt orange gular color which is very rare on mature females; 3. dark pigmentation on on the webbing of the rear part of the soft dorsal, although it is not prominant; 4. body hue has some purple and other colors typical of many males in it; 5. gill flap shape is well within the variation of typical mature male BG. All the above features combine to indicate male leaving very little if any doubt in my mind. To bet big money on the sex or stock it as a male in my pond, I would have to see several males and females from the same pond.

CB1 send my post or a link to this thead to the poster on the taxidermy website questioning it's a male due to the short ear tab. IMO his problem is he is using basically only one feature to recognize male BG and not considering the whole package that characterizes a mature male BG.


Actually Bill I've already said pretty much the same things you did. His reply was maybe it's a "Pat" fish as in the character on Saturday Night Live. LOL
Posted By: esshup Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 02:31 AM
Us Pondmeisters have to remember that fish in managed ponds (read that as ponds with supplemental feeding, be it pellets or copious amounts of forage fish) will have much greater WR's than "wild" fish. Even tho this forum is about ponds, not all the fish pictured are from managed ponds.

My how quickly we get spoiled! wink (Myself included)

A friend was jumping for joy when he caught a fat 8" BG a few years ago in my pond. He didn't believe me when I told him that there were BG in the pond that were at least 10" and possibly 11" long until he caught one. It ruined BG fishing for him on public waters around his home town forever. laugh
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 05:07 AM
I feel that way with my trout. I plant them at 8 to 10 inches and in a couple of years they are 5 to 7 lbs. Trolling at the local lake where they average 15 inches and a couple of pounds is a real let down.
Posted By: djstauder Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 01:52 PM
Bruce,
Why do you say non-parental? Because he looks happy? hehe
Posted By: ewest Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 03:00 PM
Not a spawning male yet based on size and features. Most likely due to there being dominant spawning males who suppress spawing in young male BG. Thus young and non-parental. If this is a southern pond then likely approaching 1 year old - first spawn if not suppressed.

Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 04:54 PM
Cecil I would expect you to say basically the same things about sexing this 'unknown fish' since you, Bruce and I were co-authors on or Sexy BG articles in PBoss Mag.
My experience in working with spawning male bluegill indicates that as males go through successive spawning seasons the forehead or nape becomes enlarged with age,, none, minimal or slight for young mature males, and extreme nape hump in old large males of the population.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 01/31/13 05:37 PM
Agreed.

One thing that always sticks in my mind, which Bobby Glennon a biologist for JM Malone and Sons said about sexing bluegills for hybrid bluegill production: He said he if he wants to be 100 percent he's only certain if he sees the sex products as in milt and eggs. All other methods are just a guide.

This is why you and I and Bruce and others when in doubt do not put a bluegill into an all male pond.

And of course we know some cuckholds males (sneakers) mimic females in appearance, but since we only plant definte males that doesn't matter.



Posted By: ewest Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 02:27 AM
You guys should get PB mag if you don't. Here is a part from a prior Cutting Edge article on BG adaptation. Never underestimate the effect of local adaptation on a population.

In the Shoup et al study eight experimental 0.4-ha ponds (one acre with a mean depth of 1m) were used to evaluate the effects of habitat complexity on growth of small bluegill. Each pond was stocked with 15 kg of young-of-year bluegills (30–50 mm total length, approximately 20,000 fish per pond) to produce a realistic density for small ponds. The ponds contained varying amounts of vegetation (plants) and no predators.


The result was - by the end of the experiment, bluegill from the low vegetation treatment ponds were significantly longer – twenty (20%) percent than bluegill from the high vegetation treatment ponds.


..... addressed in more detail is phenotypic plasticity. That is the ability of an individual or population to change due to environmental influences. Can environmental conditions during early development shape individuals’ phenotypes so they become more adaptive to the conditions they encounter? Were the long bluegill that fed in open water that way because longer fish can swim better in open water and were the shorter bluegill that way because being short allows them to maneuver around the weeds better? Plasticity has been shown to effect sunfish (Lepomis) shape, feeding and behavior in some cases.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:00 AM
Plasticity rules! Mine have adapted to living off welfare and getting fat and lazy because of.
Posted By: Bruce Condello Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:05 AM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Not a spawning male yet based on size and features. Most likely due to there being dominant spawning males who suppress spawing in young male BG. Thus young and non-parental. If this is a southern pond then likely approaching 1 year old - first spawn if not suppressed.



Egg-zackly! smile
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Bullhead
Does the brow ridge mean anything, compared to this one that my daughter is holding?


Bullhead,

What do you mean by brow ridge?
Posted By: Bluegillerkiller Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:32 AM
I think he means fore-head "helmet" maybe..
Posted By: ewest Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Plasticity rules! Mine have adapted to living off welfare and getting fat and lazy because of......


Pellets = welfare !!! laugh
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:05 PM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Plasticity rules! Mine have adapted to living off welfare and getting fat and lazy because of......


Pellets = welfare !!! laugh



You got it !
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 04:08 PM
Plasticity, variation, and adaptability of species promotes success and survial.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 08:59 PM
That's about the most complex 10 word sentence I've seen.
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Sex of this bluegill? - 02/01/13 10:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
And of course we know some cuckholds males (sneakers) mimic females in appearance, but since we only plant definte males that doesn't matter.

One of the best articles about this was by our good fish voyeur friend Dr. Dave Willis The Secret Life of Bluegill way back in 2005 in Pond Boss Magazine.
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