OK... Now that the water is cold enough to be really enjoyable when we fall in, I've finally gotten almost everything I need to start the siphons.

Details:

Dam is around 212 feet thick (or maybe a bit more) at bottom tapering at approximately a 4:1 slope (on both sides) to the top where it is somewhere around 12 feet wide (or a bit more).

There is currently 5 to 8 feet of freeboard between dam top and water level (not quite full and spillway is 5 feet below top of dam).

I'd like to pull about 15 feet of water out of the pond.

I have 600 feet of 8" diameter pipe (30 twenty foot joints).

I have pipe soap.

I have four 22.5 degree elbows.

I currently have one pipe saddle (allows one to cut 2" diameter hole in pipe and add that size pipe going upward).

I have 2" ball valve and other 2” pipe to connect to 2" water pump a friend has.

I have some inflatable balls and such that I'm hoping will plug / seal the ends well enough (with reinforcements from vice grips / wire / whatever else if necessary) to keep water in as needed to start siphon.

Questions:

It seems I read on here that a siphon won't pull more than 20 feet vertically. Is that correct?

What is the best use of the pipe? I.e. Do I have enough 8” pipe to do two siphons? If so, how much pipe on pond side and dam side?

Is it likely the pipes will stay together based upon friction or do I need to screw the pipes together with stainless self tapping screws or something (I can email pipe pics if that helps)?

Will those inflatable (dodgeball type) balls work to hold back water with something across them (rope with vice grips or something). I don't really have a lot of confidence in that, but 8" check and ball valves seem pretty expensive for very infrequent use like this. Do you have other suggestions?

Should I should use floats / weights on pipes in water to suspend them below the surface, but off the bottom?

What should I watch for as the stage where hypothermia becomes severe?

Also, any idea of, at what point, ice might pose a risk of cracking the pipe? It should be close enough to bank so that I can chop around it and water flowing through wouldn’t form ice, but just wondering in case siphon not working for either 8” or 14”…

Speaking of the 14”, I still haven’t gotten all / enough of the 14” pipe I ordered long ago; but am pretty confident in how to make it work (except for whether I need to use screws to hold together and floats/weights).

Thanks!

Jeff

Jeff,
Not certain about the 20' of vertical but sounds right.
I'd suggest getting 1 siphon going, then seeing.
The further you run down the back side the faster it will pull out the water.
The front side needs to extend down to the depth + 4' extra or so. If it whirlpools and sucks air around that suction end it will break the siphon.
Would add 1 or 2 screws to the pipe joints of the pipes in front. Keep them together if you want to pull them back out. Insures the weight of the water won't pull the joints apart, with the pipe laying on slime it would slide easy.
The balls should work. If not 8" inflatable pipe plugs are available for testing pipe, or could glue a cap on downstream end and saw it off after priming pipe, but that getting wet- hypothermia thing comes to mind. 8" ball valve would work on front right below water level.
If you can get the pipe ran into the pond without plugging the end up I would think it would lay on the bottom and siphon without any problem of plugging up.
Pipe is pretty tough, should withstand freezing unless severe.
Hypothermia is one thing to watch for, 2 other things in regards to safety: If your dressed heavy with heavy boots and the front of the dam is slick, sliding into the pond could take you under for the count. Also after getting siphon going do not get close to suction end. If it grabs you you may not get loose, especially if your in deep slime.

Thanks zhkent!

Just an update: Yesterday at 2:40 p.m., we started the siphon on the first try. We had the basketball in the downhill side and the dodgeball in the pond side both pop out while filling with water. We had to put straps over the ends to hold them in. I bought a bunch of stainless screws to hold the pipe together, but we wound up driving several steel posts alongside the pipe and strapping the pipe to them so they wouldn't go downhill instead. I'm glad we did that as it worked fine and I don't have screw holes in the pipes. I bought a 30 x 60 tarp to go under exit and help minimize erosion. That was a good idea. Water is shooting out of there like crazy. I was seriously impressed that it elevated water levels and created current in the creek 1/2 mile downstream like it did. This morning, at around 7:40 a.m., the water levels in the pond had dropped about 6". It has quite a ways to go; but we're going to have add more joints to the pond side to get it really down there. I'm already dreading that. The water was cold with just my arms in it (off pontoon boat)! I can provide more specifics and some pictures if anyone is interested.

I am interested in seeing the pictures, Ranger.

Me too.

As Kent said -- keep away from the suction end of the pipe. When you go to add pipe to that end watch out. You do not want any arms, fingers, cloths or any thing else in the way. It can mangle a hand or kill you if you get them in the suction and the pipe attaches (is sucked on). You can't pull your hand out of the suction of a 8 in. pipe!!! Take 2 lengths of pipe connected put wire or strong rope harness ( so that the harness handle is 3-4 ft. above pipe) about 3 feet back of each end and submerge in water until full at least 30 ft away from suction. Slowly line up new pipe and move toward the suction end holding on to just the harness handle and guide into place until suction is on far end of new pipe # 2. NO CHANCES HERE YOU MAY NOT GET A SECOND ONE.

As the water level goes down the speed that it drops will increase because the basin of the pond is smaller.

It sounds like an emergency "break suction" valve/fitting at the top of the dam, with a live body standing by to use it, would be a VERY good idea while messing with the inlet of an operating pond suction.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to run a siphon over 20' vertically. As long as you could build a pipe to support the two water columns, I don't see why you couldn't run a siphon over the moon and back, as long as the head pressure of the siphon (elevation diff) is enough to overcome the friction losses in the pipe.

I think I may try to put a metal plate of some kind where the water hits the tarp to help disperse the impact (afraid I’ll soon have an extra holy tarp if I don’t). I’ll have to try that method to add pipe to the end if get to it before siphon stops. I used a fillet knife duct taped to a piece of 1” PVC pipe to puncture ball when nephew opened lower end. Nephew wound up having to cut one of the straps to open lower end. When he did, the basketball and water shot out. I couldn’t tell if I had successfully punctured the dodgeball or not at first. It was in the ditch below though before I could make it back to top of dam. We used the 2” pipe saddle and valve to fill up the pipe with water pumps and shut it off when it was full. It could be opened to break suction in emergency.

Here is my first real attempt at posting pictures on here... The pictures are fairly small (shot with Treo phone). Hopefully, there aren't so many it is slow for slow connections.

Tn Hillbilly- The hight of lift will only be limited by the vapor pressure of the water. In other words the point of vacuum where the water starts to boil or vaporize. I am sure this is higher than 20' at normal temperatures.

The upper lift limit for a siphon is the atmospheric pressure expressed in feet of water, approximately 30 feet (as opposed to the 29.5 inches of mercury the barometer on the wall next to me is reading). Temperature does not get into it (except that it's hard to siphon ice).

I believe increasing the height of the drop on the outlet (greatly in excess of the height of the inlet rise) may increase the rate of flow. It will not lift water more than the atmospheric pressure (30 foot) lift limit.

Thanks for posting the pics, Ranger. That's a lot of pipe and a lot of water flowing out.

Pondsforfun,

Good point!

Theo,

One standard atmosphere is about 33.9 ft of water, but why couldn't a siphon pull an even lower pressure than that? A lot of pumps can draw water up much farther than that, which means they can create more than 1 atmosphere negative pressure, without the water boiling. Whether or not the siphon will flow and the flow rate is simply a function of the head pressure right? The pressure (negative) in the pipe doesn't have anything to do with it until as pondsforfun said, the the pressure gets so low that the water at the highest point in the pipe starts changing state to a gas. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Rangersedge,

Too bad you don't gave a generator on the end of that pipe!

Rangers Edge,

I am having to do this same project for one of my customers. I have to plan it out and quote it today.

Any "after-the-fact" knowledge is very helpful!

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The first photo is of the overall pond, 1.21 acres. The problem is the drain pipe is clogged and deteriating. Water is passing by the pipe and most likely erroding around it.

We need to lower the level in anticipation of heavy rain fall so the system does not over flow and use your idea until the customer can locate a firm to correct the problem.

TNHB:

Submersible pumps can be sized to push water much higher than 1 Atmosphere (we'll use your 33.9 feet, since it's more precise than my "about 30 feet") - pressurize the water more and you can push it higher. But above water suction pumps cannot raise water more than 33.9 vertical feet, because they only have one atmosphere of pressure (literally from the actual atmosphere pushing down on the water) to work with. And a siphon follows the same limitation.

I have never heard of water boiling in a siphon or pump.

Theo- You can use a vacuum pump to make water boil at 32 degrees. When you raise water up a vertical column by suction or siphon the higher in the column the more vacuum pressure you exert on the water. When the water reaches its vapor pressure, the point where vacuum and temperature produces vapor, It will boil or vaporize and lose suction. This is true of any liquid except they all have different vapor pressures. The atmospheric pressure and gravity keeps everything from boiling away. Or at least it was that way when I went to school. :p

Theo,

You can buy pumps that lift much higher than 30 ft. I'm talking about the pump on the high end of the pipe, pulling water higher than 30 ft thru the intake line. I don't think the siphon cares what atmospheric pressure is since it is the same at the inlet and outlet. Atmospheric pressure cancels out. It's the difference in the water column heights at either end of the siphon that is providing the working pressure, so if I have a difference of 50 ft between outlet and water level on the uphill side, I should be able to siphon over a 49 ft dam. I've never heard of water boiling in a siphon or pump either, which tells me you can run a siphon over a great height, or pull water up with negative pressure up a great distance without any problems, as long as you can build a pipe to do it.

It is true that you cannot syphon higher than 33 feet based upon what you guys are saying about vapor pressure. See this site:
http://www.exo.net/~pauld/physics/syphon/syphonphysics.htm

bz and Theo,

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Cary: Sorry I didn't have a chance to check this out until now. A nephew called last night about fishing this morning and it worked with my schedule so went fishing until noon and was then busy until a little bit ago. That looks like hilly terrain. If you have enough downhill slope, I think a 4" pipe would probably drain that pond pretty low, pretty quickly and would be a lot cheaper / easier than the bigger pipe. With smaller pipe, you could possibly, affordably use a real check valve on the water side and a ball valve on the dam side to make it a one person job instead of a three person one. With smaller pipe, I'd get a T and small valve for the middle of the dam and use a small gas water pump / hose to fill. That way, a person shouldn't have too much money in the siphon / supplies and one person can easily redo in event it fills back up before contractor fixes the existing. Even with smaller pipe, you'd want to keep it from coming apart so I'd connect the pipes with either self drilling screws or stakes / straps like I did. If I used the screws, I'd probably still put a stake / strap on the bottom end.

Wish I had you guys around to help out about 20 years ago, fyhsics would of been alot more fun.

fish and fhysics.........who would of thunk you'd get that all here

All: Great discussion and link on siphoning extremes. I've learned a bunch. Thanks!

After getting back from fishing (3 people, 1 boat, @ 165 minutes, power plant lake, after white bass = 1 released LMB about 16") this morning, I checked it out. The water had dropped enough that the siphon had stopped. As feared it might, the water force had worn through the tarp. In retrospect, I should have known to place a big piece of sheet metal there to absorb the force. I was a little surprised that the tarp also didn't hold up that well in a couple other spots too. I'm not sure what I'm going to do different to improve that situation when I restart it.

Overall, I was very impressed with how well it worked and how easy it was to start. I'm going to order another saddle so that we can have two 8" siphons going when restart it. I'm also awaiting delivery of the remaining 14" pipe. I can only imagine how fast two 8" and one 14" siphons can pull out water.

I'm going to check again into the cost / availability of a check valve for the pond end. From safety / convenience standpoint, it'd be great.

As an alternative, I'm going to check into the cost / availability of a flexible connector / elbow to connect section from dam top to pond. If that piece could flex enough so water end could be raised easily even when in deep water and possibly be easily installed on the dam then swung out over water, it could make it a lot easier.

Barring those, we'll use the balls and straps again. They worked far better than I anticipated. I just realized that I hadn’t mentioned… We drove a four wheeler unto the pontoon boat and then used its winch to pull the pipe end up close enough I could see / reach the end to pop the ball. We then lowered it when siphoning started. Maybe an improvised redneck work around, but that worked fairly well… Each joint makes it about 5 foot deeper and I’m not confident the pipe will have enough flex to allow us to do that ahead out. We might find out…

Given that the siphon has stopped before having chance to add joints, that I doubt if enough flex exists to bring near enough to surface, that lake fills quickly (see spillway pic below), and that the water is cold now; I'm now debating whether to wait a bit to restart siphon.

Which reminds me… I don't remember what type of paint I should use on the pipe to protect it from sun and elements. Any suggestions?

Sorry in advance for size of spillway picture. I cropped it, reduced resolution, and etc.; but it still shows up huge.

Edited: Pic was too huge so I removed it. I can email if anyone knows how to shrink and doesn't mind.

Ranger:

Email it to me and I'll cut it down to size, then post it.

Ranger,

Thank you for your input...you are right about the check valve and ball valve at the end. I was trying to find a ball small enough for a 3" pipe.

I'll post photos when complete.

Rangersedge's Pond Runneth Over:

Rangersedge :

Have you calculated how much water you want to remove and appx. time to do so. We drop our 16 acre pond ( avg. depth 8-9 ft. max 20 ft. little shallow water) 3-4 ft. in a week with a 8 in. siphon. How big is the lake and avg. depth ? The water level can drop in a hurry at the end of the drawdown because the remaining water is in a smaller basin.

Thanks Theo! P.S. I like your signature.

Ewest: It took 17 hours to drop it the first 6" inches. You are right in that it would drop faster as it lowers. I believe the pond is currently a little over 17 acres, current max depth maybe 23 feet, no guess as to average depth. I think I need to pull about 15 vertical feet of water out to get it to the depth I need to do all the work I want. I'm guessing might leave 3-4 acres with a pretty uniform 8 feet of water to support the existing fish. After seeing the 8", I don't think I really needed the 14"; but got a good deal / already received and paid for most. Complications are that the pond seems to fill up really fast when get much rain (see above photo), that we should receive spring rains prior to work, and that exposed dirt will probably need plenty of time to dry before doing the work. P.S. Subscriber and book owner too.

I'm wondering about the impact drawing down and maintaining level throughout spring / summer will have on fish population. 40# fatheads stocked in 2003, BG/RE/CC stocked in fall 2004, LMB stocked in June 2005. BG/RE/CC/LMB stockings all based upon 9 acres I had thought I had.

Rangersedge :

You are wise to think about that now. My concern would be that what you stocked has grown in size and number thus the carrying capacity of the lake as drawdown will become an issue when hot weather arrives. Do you aerate? The LMB will have a field day when it starts to warm with the concentration of 17 acres of forage fish into 4 acres. You may need to stock some 3-5in. BG and RES in spring 07. Do you have a place you could move some to and bring back later? You might want to cull some this spring. The other question that comes to mind is the effect on this years spawn. Have your BG spawned in the pond in summer 05 ? Were the LMB 2in. when stocked in 05 ? If so they may or may not spawn this summer. If not that would be good. Anyway you will have to watch and see if any year class is lost this summer and adjust to the situation , if needed. Brush up on recognizing stress factors in fish as a precaution.

Rangersedge,

This is very interesting, pictures really help too.

What are your plans during the draw down?

Gator

Ewest:

I have considered aeration, but have not done so. The pond is about ¼ mile from my electricity. Considered windmill, but don’t foresee problems when wind is blowing as it catches enough now to create waves (which I presume oxygenate water some?). I posted a question about Solar Bee systems last year, but remember receiving any responses pro or con. I need to check into aeration more.

I do have a couple places I could probably move some BG/RES to. That may be a good idea. Any other suggestions?

All fish were small (2"?) when stocked. I didn’t see any signs of bluegill spawn (nests, etc.) in 05.

I have a plethora of yellow bullheads. Maybe the bass will chomp on them / their young instead of bluegill?

I haven’t tried fishing yet. How large do you think the BG, RES, LMB, CC should be by now?

Alligator:

Plans? What plans? I wouldn’t be doing this now if I actually planned in advance! ;-)

Update:

Yesterday, we added two joints of pipe and started the siphon on the first try again. This should pull out about 10 more feet of water. That may be where we stop. Since I now don’t anticipate using the 14” pipe for siphon, we added those on the end of the 8” pipe to get the water to the ditch without causing problems. I should have done that to start with. It has been raining most of the day today.

Rangersedge :

Good question. The timing of when 2in. stocker fish have their initial spawn in a pond is different from south to north. Down here it is not unusual for age 1 fish (LMB and BG born in the spring) to spawn the next ( 2nd) summer. That is not the case up north. From what I understand it will be age 2 before they spawn up north. Bill or CB1 or Theo or Dave or a host of other northern PBers. can answer that question better. If you don't see small LMB or BG fry/yoy then they probably have not spawned in your pond yet. Bob I think uses Solar Bees in his NY project. You might catch a few CC ,BG/RES just to see their size and condition. That would be good to know.

R:

We stocked 3"-4" BG/RES in May 2003, had a (small) late spawn (of both, I honestly believe) in late Summer the same year.

If I read back correctly, you put in 2" BG/RES in the Fall of 2004. My guess would be that they didn't grow much by Spring 2005, and would have had a lesser chance of a spawn in 2005 than my bream did their first year.

This is just an amateur's guess. You've got a lot more water than I do, probably making it easier to miss seeing what limited spawning activity you might have had in 2005 or the relatively low numbers of new fingerlings that would have resulted. Like ewest said, your direct observations and catch results (and seining, if you did any) are by far the best source of info.

Rangersedge,
AERATION DURING DRAWDOWN
If you have 7’ to 8’ of water depth during draw down you should not have to aerate during this summer. Wind action on 3 to 4 acres of water should keep the upper warm water layer mixed down to 6 ft probably 7 ft deep and 8 ft deep if you have really good wind exposure. If it were my pond I would not worry about aeration unless it does not receive any wind action. Without any wind the water area should contain adequate oxygen down to 4 ft minimum and likely 5 ft. Even in that situation the volume of unmixed anoxic layer should not be large enough to cause a major fish kill if a summer turn over (destratification) occurs.

FISH DURING DRAWDOWN
Basically I foresee no problem with your fish numbers unless you stocked those small fish in with existing adult fish.
1. Your initial stocking densities were for 9 acres, so you under stocked as far as numbers and the actual total acreage of 17 ac. Thus your existing fish densities are not as far off as if you stocked for 17 acres. Food supplies for the NON-PREDATORS may be a little short this summer thus their growth may not be optimum. However they may make up some of this growth when the pond refills and extra biomass or production occurs in 2007 due to the new inundated pond areas.

My opinion is: Fathead spawning and survivability during draw down is dependent on several things; primarily existing cover and availability of spawning substrates. Lack of fathead spawning and spawning of some BG should even itself out as far as fish biomass in the draw down pond. If the LMB haven’t eliminated the fatheads by now they will probably complete that job during drawdown. Thus further lowering fish densities to a more normal carrying capacity of 3 to 4 acres.

Stocking of BG –RES (1”-2”) in fall 2004 should be at 4”-6” this spring (2006) and CC (fall 04) could be up to 8”, maybe? 10”. I suspect CC are mostly 6”-8” this spring if they were not fed pellets. It is possible a few of the advanced BG spawned in late 2005, but I sort of doubt it. It mostly depends on the variability of the size of BG that were supplied. The first main spawn of BG- RES will likely occur this spring (2006). Noticeable water fluctuation during spring and summer and substrate composition may affect their spawning success and recruitment. Survivability of the 2006 hatchlings should be based primarily on the existing size of the pond during draw down.

Your 6/05 stocking of 2” LMB should be 4”-7” this spring. They will eat and grow just fine this summer. Reduced amounts of shallow water during draw down conditions SHOULD allow LMB to adequately crop the young that are produced this summer. Water clarity this spring summer will have a big impact on the efficiency of the LMB predation factor and their growth for 2006.

PS - I have discovered that larger sized bullheads >7") will eat small fish. I cleaned a 10" yellow bulhead last summer with a 2.5" green sunfish in it. Other bullheads also had small fish in them.

Bill :

Thanks for looking in on this thread. As usual you hit a homer. I know Rangersedge will be greatful for the sound advice.

Thanks Theo, Ewest, and Bill! All responses are helpful and Bill's is especially so. Thanks again!

If the spawning conditions / success is not favorable this year due to the drawdown, will that potentially result in more large bluegill (i.e. conditions bad = no spawn = more growth)?

PS: I found a person who really likes to eat bullheads. I'm hoping we can put a significant dent in their population while the water is concentrated. Hopefully, we can catch out a lot of the big ones and the LMB will take out small ones.

Rangersedge - You ask:
If the spawning conditions / success is not favorable this year due to the drawdown, will that potentially result in more large bluegill (i.e. conditions bad = no spawn = more growth)?

Yes. Limited spawn of bgill/RES this summer should cause more food to be available for remaining BG. Although persistance of high turbidities will have a negative affect on fish food production and the ability of fish to feed properly. Hopefully water clarity during draw down will remain normal.

Well... We've had some major rains this past week and my pond is probably close to being full again. The pond side of the siphon is under many feet of water. We are thinking about filling up the downhill side of the pipe, closing the top fill spot, and then opening the downhill side up.

My fear is that the air remaining between the dam and pond side water will kill the vacuum; but I really don't want to do the scuba route right now so we're going to give this a shot.

What do you think? Will it start the siphon or will just empty the downhill side?

Hello Everyone,
I have been to this site alot, but this is my first post. Ebay is :rolleyes: Porn is But this site is
I'm going to throw an uneducated guess at this question. If the distance from the top of the dam to the water(plus the width of the dam at the top)is less than half the distance of the pipe from the top of the dam to the bottom of the dam /end of pipe on the dam side. Hmmm.
For every foot drop in the water in the pipe on the dam side should'nt the water in the pipe on the water side rise one foot? LOL
In short, Yes, well maybe....did I mention guess??
Anyway it's a great site and I'm glad to be here.

Desert Pond

Welcome to the forum Desert Pond. It seems logical that there should be some formula where it depends upon length height of pipe with water vs. without water and the pond water level... I don't know though. May try it Saturday and find out.

Rangersedge,
It's worth trying, my guess would be it won't take.
If it does work would like to know.
There is another way. Fill up the downstream pipe with water. A small vacuum pump or the vacuum off of a gas motor will work to pull the rest of the air out. Plumb the vacuum line to the fill spout, suck out the air and close the valve.

We decided to wait until spring rains pass before trying.

Kent: Good suggestion. We will try that trick if doesn't work otherwise. Thanks!

And the answer is... It worked!

My brother and I tried the siphon this afternoon. There was probably 7 - 8' on the pond side between water level and top of dam. We weren't optimistic, but it worked first try and took a total of 35 minutes from pulling up to pond to watching it flow.

The pond had drained enough to create a little whirlpool over the end of the siphon so we added a joint of pipe last night. Following ewests advice and warnings. We lined up the additional joint and it went right on.

In fact, it went on so sudden and so hard that it drove home the warning NOT to have anything you don't mind having cut off between the two pipes. I had to take a ratchet strap off the end of the existing pipe (would have prevented other pipe from going on) and we worked around the edge some getting it ready so, previously to putting the pipe out there, had fingers near edge and pressure didn't seem that bad. Made point not to get in front of end of course; but vacuum really didn't seem that strong. Later, when lining up pipe, thought we had it in the general area and all of a sudden, it was just WHUMP and the new pipe section was sucked in full depth. Happened so fast and hard, no one would have had a chance to pull fingers / hand / etc. out of the way. They would have just been gone.

Lesson: 1. Just line up pipe and the vacuum will pull it on. 2. It is extremely important to keep stuff you don't want to lose out of the way.

Good job Rangersedge . Please keep us updated on the drawdown and what happens. Can't speak about small 1-2 inch pipe but on 6-8 inch pipe it is critical to keep all body parts and personal items of interest away from the suction end of a running siphon.

I probably should have pointed out that we used ropes tied to each end to line it up. Nephew and I were near connection and brother was on pontoon boat near deep water end of new section.

syphons are very interesting. as ewest notes they can be very dangerous in situations like pinch points when adding pipe joints (especially a cap)or when large diameter pipes are used it is the pressure differential (psi) * pipe area so for a 10 psi differential and an 8 inch pipe there is 500 pounds of force sucking you in, be very carefull snorkelling around the inlet. and the pressure spikes when stopping are much greater than steady state pressure differentials

i have played with syphons several times and have lots of ideas for them. you sure dont need a bulldozer to excavate a pond

that is some big pond you guys are playing with good luck.

plus i wanted to try posting a picture so here is one of my syphons
syphon fountain

Just a quick note to say the siphon apparently stopped some time yesterday. There were some fish in a pool where the pipe ended. They were mainly bullheads and greensunfish. A few were channel cats and one bass.

Was that planned or did something stop it? Is the water down enough for your plans ?

Quit between checks - can confirm that levels do drop more quickly as pond lowers on my pond anyway! Probably a good thing it stopped when it did. I'm a little concerned that may have taken more water out than ideal. Lots of remaining areas are pretty shallow. Still has some areas that are probably at least 7 or 8 feet though (couldn't touch bottom with long paddle and arm over edge of boat pushing down). I took some pictures, but don't have software on currently accessible computer to upload.

Also concerned about finding some fish that went through the siphon (found: two dead bass & maybe 6 channel cats). I don't feel bad about the 4 or so green sunfish or the dozens of bullheads that are in a little pool below the dam. Last night, my sister was fishing with earthworms and catching bullheads each cast within seconds of it hitting the water. I wasn't having near as much success catching bass or green sunfish on a lure as prior to draining. Prior to draining, I caught one on almost every cast. Last night, it was maybe once in 30 casts. I figured they would be concentrated and I'd catch them like crazy...

I put out 5 wooden catfish traps. Forgot that they float until they soak up. Still floating this morning... May have to stick some bricks in them so they'll sink. Thinking about setting a couple trotlines out. Figure I'll stay busy taking off bullheads if I do.

Also, killed 4 more snakes and saw even more last night. Plan to remove fence from near the pond in morning so that can bushhog around it before long. Maybe that will help. Can't figure out why so many snakes and skunks at the site.

Also, talked with a biologist who mentioned that he has received green sunfish and other undesirables with fathead minnows. He suggested that may be where mine came from. Afer he said that, I remembered receiving some rosey reds that had several strange looking fish in with them (virtually all the fish arrived dead so none lived). I think I'll closely examine any fish that I stock in my ponds from now on.

I'll confirm this theory with personal experience.

Readers - look at this,even PB moderators are discussing fish order containation under the topic of Pond Construction - Building a Dam - Siphon Specifics.

When you buy large quanities of fish (all varieties) from hatcheries often they are not hand counted due to time constraints. They seperate the quantity by weight. One has to assume that no cross contamination has occurred at teh hatchery. I have been to several hatcheries where owners kids or relatives kids have been allowed to "play" in the hatchery tanks with dip nets. This is only one example of a possible source of cross contamination that could occur at the hatchery.

Another source of cross contamination at the hatchery level is when fish are pond raised. Any foreign fish in the pond can spawn and provide extra fish in the final seine hauls. Often these fish are not real closely hand sorted due to time constraints.

Some fish at hatcheries are raised in poly culture where two or more species are raised together to capitalize on increased production for a given water body.

I've watched hatchery workers hand sorting fish and they make mistakes either due to pure error or a fish in a sorting net accidently jumps at the right or wrong time and makes it into the wrong tank.

Lots of ways fish can contaminate your order.

I don't get angry very often, but I am absolutely livid at the idea that carelessness on the part of hatchery personel could ruin all of my hard planning when it comes to stocking and managing my ponds.

Bruce that is why you should always check each fish that goes into your pond if a pure culture is needed.

I made that mistake when I allowed a well known local fish culturist to stock fathead minnows in my pond while I was away in 2001.

Magically, I had bullheads by the next year.

Won't ever make that mistake again.

Whatever happened to that local fish culturist? Did they ever find the body?

Sorry about getting into fish management under building a dam. I'm the site admin at another site and have been seriously thinking about revamping the layout because many of the threads cross areas so much. I was thinking this morning that it might be interesting to have some areas where could follow ponds all the way through. What worked and what didn't.

The siphon worked extremely well.

I caught 2 bass, 1 bluegill, and maybe 8 green sunfish last night in about 45 minutes. The biggest bass was hooked in the gill of course. I was using jig with barbless hook and released it quickly, but it was bleeding...

As to the pond, I'm really not sure what to do now. I'm again considering a fyke net to try to remove as many green sunfish and bullheads as possible. Wondering if it wouldn't have been better for it to have siphoned dry and started over. Discouraged.

The reason for the drawdown/pond construction was to do some work on the pond and try to fix the fish population. It is natural in the progression of the topic that this happens but it makes it hard to find Bill's outstanding posts again later. I wish I had a good suggestion on this but I don't. I am getting better at using the search function.

Ranger don't get discouraged its all part of the journey. Keep taking out the BH and GSF and add BG when you can. There are more tricks in the bag if needed.

If I understand the procedure right the pipe in the pond goes to the depth plus about 4 foot lower. At the top elbow there is not anything installed? Or is there a tee to prime the lines and balls covering both ends? My pond is running higher than I desire since I connected the house gutters. I may try this syphon to correct my water level, I would use 4 inch pvc. I have read these posts many times to get the method and for protection.

I could also very easily dig out on the spillway and install an over flow with a pipe and only dig down about one foot. if I did that what should I do around the pipe to prevent wash out?

Paul: For my original siphon, we just ran the pipe over the dam. For the permanent one, I buried it about three feet (below freeze level) in the top of the dam and between 3 and 9 feet the rest of the way except starting at about 15 feet below normal water level, it is just on top of the pond bottom. For something permanent without worrying about freezing, I'd seriously look at doing it more like on the pond dam piping website here http://www.ponddampiping.com/syphon1.html. the ice sometimes gets pretty thick where I am located so I'm not comfortable trying that way. Mine is more designed so that I can pull water from the pond bottom as desired vs. it automatically maintaining a certain level as might be better for your situation. Hope this helps. Jeff

Missed the second part... Digging out the spillway and installing a pipe with an antiseep collar would likely be faster and cheaper. That might be a good option. In essence I did that on some of my sediment dams. I'll try to hunt up and take some pictures this weekend.