I am looking at having a construction company build a small lake (or big pond) on some of my land in south-central Illinois (about 115 miles northeast of Carbondale). It will be 10 - 12 surface acres and drain approximately 120 acres. I'm building it primarily for fishing. The soil is predominately clay.

I am seeking all the advice I can get. For example, there are presently several trees in the main drainage. Do fish benefit from the trees or should I remove them? It will have an island and several coves with the longest approximately 700 yards in length (as measured by a laser rangefinder). The deepest points will likely be around 35 feet (guess).

I've heard people say to only stock it with Bass, Bluegill, and Red-ear. I like Crappie and have thought about Stripers or hybrid Stripers. Would Crappie overpopulate? Is it big enough for Striped Bass to do well? Should I stock some type of forage fish like shad? Should I haul in some sand/gravel and place it in a couple coves for spawning? Are there pricing specials for pond stocking through NRCS (or whatever the county soil conservation offices are called now)? Given what I’ve just recently read about bluegills spawning at a smaller size if larger ones not present and then growing more slowly, should I just catch some large bluegills and etc. in local ponds with which to stock it?

I had planned to install a drain system in the dam, but have heard several voice concerns regarding leakage. I still intended to proceed with those plans until the culvert (pipe) in one of my neighbors’ ponds (about 4 acres and 20 years old) started leaking badly last year. He’s about to have it taken out and try using a spillway. As a result I am now considering a couple spillways since the geography is well situated to have the primary and overflow spillways run over exiting hills (instead of the constructed dam). How do I protect those spillways from erosion? Will riprap be enough?

I had planned to build the dam and leave the drain open for a couple years while doing the contouring and etc. so wasn’t in a hurry for that part. With that change and a lower cost estimate than expected for construction, I need advice fast.

FWIW: I just found out about this site from someone at crappie.com, have spent the last 180 minutes reading through it, and am very impressed! I’ve searched unsuccessfully for a site like this before and do plan to order the magazine, books, and etc.

Any and all advice is sincerely appreciated.

I forgot to ask also about Smallmouth Bass and Walleye. Could either of them do ok too in a pond such as described above?

First of all congratulations on having clay - pond should seal nicely. I am not an expert and if I were building a 10-12 acre pond I would pay the extra money to find and have an expert come to the site and advise me - in the long run will be money well spent. I would NOT remove the trees as they will be good structure for your fishing. Establishing your forage base first is critical - hybrids, coppernose, etc. should be stocked and given time to establish before bass etc are stocked. Crappie are controversial but from all I have read can be heavy competition for your bass and in a smaller pond like yours are usually not advised. The hybrid stipers can be a fun addition to fish for - again, get Bob Lusk's book sold on PB site and follow the advice along with hiring a pro to direct you. One of my friends built a pond last year - he wouldn't take my advice of hiring a pro but rather relied on his dozer guy - he now owns an expensive pond that is not working and is having to redo things - "pay them now or pay them later" Good luck with your project

Good morning, Rangersedge. I was hoping that Cecil, Shan, or Greg would respond. However, let me toss out some ideas, and maybe they’ll respond with additional help.

First of all – Great Pond!! Your design sounds wonderful. I’m not an expert on construction, so I’ll leave that for others. However, let me talk about various fishes.

The largemouth bass (LMB) – bluegill (BLG) - redear sunfish (RES) combination has been recommended to you because it is safe, tried and true. This is a classic pond management strategy, and will provide a fish community that is self-sustaining, meaning no further stocking. The LMB are your predator, the BLG are a multiple-spawning sunfish that provide lots of food for LMB (especially the young bass). For my money, nothing beats the fillets from an 8 or 9 inch BLG! The RES are “special” in my mind, and you can expect to produce 1-1.5 pound readers in your pond. These are true gems. The RES don’t seem to have as high a reproductive potential as BLG, and I’ve never found anyone who ever found a stunted RES population.

Pondowners these days always seem to want diversity, and I guess that I can’t really blame them. However, there is a lot to be said for these simple systems like LMB, BLG, and RES. Generally, people want more predator species, and the primary problem seen on the PondBoss website is too many small predators and not enough prey for them. So, I’m always leery of adding additional predators unless a pondowner is truly interested, and willing to make some extra efforts for the pond. If a pondowner isn’t that interested, and isn’t willing to invest time, energy, and money, then perhaps “keeping it simple” is the best idea.

Let’s talk about a few of those other fishes you mentioned.

Crappie – well, you get a real mixed bag of opinions on crappies. Most of the southern experts just don’t like them, and strongly recommend keeping them out of the ponds. I seem to have a little better luck with them up north, but I’m not sure this is worth your risk. If you do use a crappie, I would strongly recommend the black crappie over the white crappie. Most of the time, you need a good prey fish supply to get really good-sized white crappies. A low density black crappie population can get by eating zooplankton and fish, with some still reaching 10-12 inches.

Striped bass are a big water, open water predator, and I would not stock them. I suspect most other folks will say the same thing.

There have been some folks successfully using hybrid striped bass in ponds. However, they are not as efficient as LMB at cropping bluegills. I posted the following on an earlier thread on this website: "I also read a new study this weekend from Southern Illinois University biologists that substantiated another point made by Greg on this thread (hybrid striped bass vs. largemouth bass). The SIU study compared predation efficiency of largemouth bass and hybrid striped bass that were feeding on bluegills. In tanks with "structure" (in this case, artificial vegetation), the largemouth bass were more than four times more efficient at capturing bluegills than were the hybrid striped bass. In open water, with no structure, efficiency was similar between largemouths and the hybrids." I copied it here to save a few keystrokes. :-)

Walleye – ah, the walleye; king (queen??) of the northern fishes! Every pondowner up in SD wants walleyes in their ponds. Everyone is walleye crazy around here. Well, they are not that good a pond fish. We’ve done OK in some larger pond (20 acre stuff), but even there, they are a lot of work. You just can’t expect them to maintain themselves in smaller waters through natural reproduction. We sometimes see a few naturally produced fall age 0 or spring age 1 fish, but they are always very low in numbers. So, if you want walleyes, they have to be maintained by stocking, and then, usually by stocking larger sizes of replacement (6-8 inchers). Those can be expensive fish. How bad do you want walleyes? Also, there has not been a lot of small impoundment work on walleyes, and I’m not sure we know the best stocking rates. I’m always so darned scared of the panfish overpopulating and stunting, that I typically have stocked too many walleyes, and they then grow slowly. So, you’d be on your own, at least somewhat, in learning how many to stock. You need enough to have effective predation and keep the small panfish cropped down, but not so many that you get slow growth on the walleyes. Again, probably only truly interested landowners should consider using them. It’s a lot easier to have the LMB as your predator, and let them reproduce naturally.

Smallmouth bass (SMB) – we actually use the SMB quite a bit up here, often as the only fish in a pond (that's a safe management strategy, but usually requires substantial harvest of small-sized SMB). The SMB sure are a fun fish for anglers!! They are fighters and jumpers. The “traditional” view on SMB is that they are not as effective predators as LMB, and will not control a species such as the BLG. There has been some recent talk on this website as to whether this is true or not. However, I would be VERY cautious about considering SMB a primary predator. It would be nice if you could maintain a few SMB in your pond, just for the fun of having some diversity in fishing. I don’t think there is any harm that could be done by adding SMB. However, I would predict that the LMB would quickly out-compete the SMB in your pond. This seems especially true the further south you get. When I worked in KS, if LMB got into an impoundment with SMB, the SMB were quickly gone.

Shad – I’m assuming that you probably mean gizzard shad (they will survive your winters, while threadfins would not). If you are concerned about producing a quality BLG fishery, then I would not stock the shad. They can hurt growth rates and maximum sizes of your BLG. If you are more interested in quality LMB, and the BLG are primarily a prey for the LMB, then shad might be a good idea. I consider shad in small waters to still be experimental, meaning that we don’t know everything we should about it. However, LMB can certainly benefit from a prey species such as gizzard shad. They key is whether you get consistent reproduction on your shad each year. If so, it’s great for LMB management. Now, the one exception to the “shad hurt BLG” rule is if you plan to feed your fish. According to several of the experts here, you can still feed the BLG up to good sizes, even if shad are present. I have no experience with this.

Well, this should give you some food for thought, and may stimulate a little help from a few of the other pondmeisters!!

Again, congratulations on what sounds like a great pond.

Dave

I've been going through the same process of building a pond in south central IL. Ours is about 10 miles south of Nashville, IL.

I've worked with the NRCS on both the building of the pond, putting some of the land into the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP), tree and grass planting, and also talked about stocking the lake (although that won't happen till this fall).

The NRCS came out an scoped out a couple of potential sites we had on our land, recommended the location the felt was most suitable, and then designed the damn. They also provided a list of local contractors. The contractors bid the job based on the NRCS's numbers. I will say the guys they recommeded were just dirt movers but with the research i did from this site, the magazine, and other books, was able work with them and they were willing to do things as requested. I was not able to find any money available to building the pond.

The NRCS does have funds available for putting some or all of the land you plan to build on in CRP so you can get paid for some of the land depanding on what it was previously used for.

There is also some programs that will provide trees, shrubs, grasses, and grains for plant around the pond. (spent one day planting 175 white pines). These were provided free of charge.

Stocking is also something the state supports. There is a program that the state will stock bluegill, Redear, channel cats and large mouth bass. There is a $25 application fee and $1 per acre charge. This is a significant savings vs going with a hatchery.

There are no major stipulations on these programs. You don't have to open your land to public fishing. You just have to agree to not turn the area you plant the trees, etc on into farm land within the next two or three years. Which is not a problem for me.

I would be willing to talk with you further on these programs or what I've researched on some of the stocking options you mentioned, as well as general pond contruction. Send me an e-mail at jkbochantin@charter.net

Kevin

Thanks everyone for your replies. I have had a call in to our regional fisheries biologist for about two weeks now with no response. I have been intending to call him again, but haven't had time during his work hours. Next week maybe.

I am looking at putting some of the surrounding land into the CRP program. Some in trees and possibly some in prairie grasses.

I will probably leave as many trees as I can in unless biologist advises otherwise.

I will probably go with the Bass, Bluegill, and Red-ear combination. Would like to have a few others such as Walleye, Smallmouth Bass, Hybrid Stripers, etc.; but they don't sound practical.

Rangersedge,
In a 12 ac pond it is possible to have some smallmouth as David Willis says. Since you will have largmouth as your primary preditor the bg will stay in check. Resist the urge to put in preditors too quickly. Establish your forage base ie fatheads, shiners, bg, b-4 adding the bass.
Talk to lakedoctor about getting smb to spawn & you could maintain them too.
Add threadfin shad in your forage & you could also grow big hybred stripers.
As the experts on here always say .. It's all about your goals and your willingness to invest the time, or money to hire a pro to manageyour pond.
There would be less maintenance of the pond with only one preditor such as LMB. With minimal attentivness on your part the LMB/BG combo will be fairly straight forward compared to 3 preditors & 3 forage fish all else being equal.
But I'm with you .. think of the thrill .. Today I'm going after Wipers! Or the fun of tossing a big bass plug for LM & ending up fighting a 5 pound Smallie!
We work our butts off all our life .. We deserve to have our cake & eat it too when possible.
My advise: Hire a good pro & have your pond the way you want it!
Ric

Its been said that Small mouth will work with B.gill but cut your b.gill stocking rates in half. If my logic is correct that means your pond supports fewer bass too. Personaly, I prefer smallies to LMB, I would almost cut off my left hand to have 5 punders in my back yard. The one peice of advice that is given here the most but probably least heard is "pick your priority". It took me a long time to realize I couldn't have it all. No lake is perfect for all species, pick your goals and prioritize them. For me it's 1.Big b.gill 2.smallies 3. Big large mouth.
Then you have to figue out how your going to go about it.

Hello everyone.Just thought I would drop in to say this project sounds like it's going to be one nice lake when complete.RangersE I think you got the info that you need to do a great job on this project there is something that I would like to add as far as construction.If you want the trees in your lake you might be asking for problems down the road.I have seen cases where this proved to be a mistake.The trees have a root system they spread out over years of growth they find the easy path to water nutrients,ect.sometimes this path goes right to a sand layer.I try to take the trees out of the bottom of a lake get the root system out then put back the stucture that you want.Top soil and all nutrient rich soil should be removed then compact the bottom this will keep your algae growth or unwanted plants in check.Try to angle the banks to avoid erosion and mowing all the way to the water is a plus if you don't have a weed eater that fits your hands just right.The spillway idea is a good one.I like to put these in beacause I have never had to drain a pond to fix a spillway.This is not the case with the pipe system.There is alot to be said about not having that ugly looking pipe sticking out of your lake.The thought of SMB Hello!!! Sorry got to say yes yes yes If you email me at lakedoctors@ccrtc.com I'll give you the 411 to get you started.Right now gotta go to work Building a 3acre pond started a week ago finish today dam rain slowed me down Welcome and good luck DOC

rangersedge, i have a spill way system, and it works fine for me. my dozer guy angled a slight trough out and away from the back of the dam so the runoff wouldn't gather behind the dam. just make sure you have a lot of clay in the spillway, and maybe a little topsoil over it so you can plant bermuda grass to further prevent erosion. i had plowed a field, and brought up a buuuuuncch of rocks, hired a couple of kids to walk in front of my front end loader, throw them in the bucket, and i dumped them around the spill way. or i imagine you can buy chunk rock from your local roc/gravel company. i personally would avoid huge items/rip raff to avoid excess turbulenc in high flow times, which could result in more erosion. i also did without a drain/lowering pipe. i'd rather not have to worry about it leaking later. i also removed all of my trees; place several rock piles, boulders, tree stumps, cedar trees etc. also, your dozer guy can build benches and contours on the bottom as he builds. not to mention, my pond is 7 acres, and i can drive around a little jet ski for the heck of it. with a 12 acre lake like yours, you really could. just make sure you know where the structure is!! i also recommend you tie jugs and lines to structure as you go. as the pond fills, the jugs will raise, and when full you can see where everything is. i also took pics along the way. and before i fertilized and limed the pond (which took care of the real clear water) i went scuba diving and mapped/marked the structure and checked everything out. just keep thinking ahead like you are doing, it will pay off. and i think you got the idea that getting the right person to do the job and doing it right the first time, even if it is a little extra money, will be worth it in the long run. also, i am not an expert, these are just my opinions. listen to bob and the other pond guru's if they disagree with me!! oh, one thing i wish i did differently,,,spread out my lime BEFORE my pond filled!!!would have been a lot easier than trying to throw out 25 tons of lime over water!!! mark

RANGERS E just wanted to see if you got my email.Been having some problems with this.have you seen that guy on tv that trows the dam computer out the window?DOC

LakeDoctor: No I haven't. I wondered about why not too. My email is jeffaworkman@yahoo.com. Please try again. Thanks! Jeff

The contractor is starting on Monday. YIKES!

LakeDoctor & Mark & Everyone else: Thanks for the advice!

Also, the regional fisheries biologist called me back. I can get it stocked for an application fee of $25 plus $1 per acre. Will include Bluegill, Redear, Largemouth Bass, and Channel Catfish. I think I may ask them to go lighter on the channel cats than normal and delay adding the Largemouths a bit.

I asked him about fathead minnows and he indicated the bluegills should provide plenty of forage. Fatheads are pretty inexpensive though and I wouldn't be opposed to buying some if it would help get other fish off to a flying start. What do you guys think?

Also, I think I will put in gravel/etc. for a stream bed and add some smallmouth bass and a few hybrid stripers - where can I get those in southern/southcentral Illinois? I like crappie, but I'm not going to stock them in this pond. I have them in a couple other small ponds and will just leave them there.

I'll also end up getting a fish feeder. Probably a Stren.

I'd like to be able to easily regulate the water level by drawing water off near the bottom. I want to say that the dam will be 200 feet thick at the bottom. I've read about a PVC based siphon system (works automatically?) and about stringing some fire hose over the dam. Recommendations? How do you keep the pond end from plugging off?

Thanks everyone!

Jeff

Hello,Jeff.Sorry I haven't been able to get back with you on this but this is the busy season.The map that you sent me looks good except for a couple of things that I have questions about but we'll talk about that on the phone sometime just give me a call if you get a chance.Keep us all informed on how your doing.DOC

I would add the fatheads. The biologist is right your bluegill are your main forage base. However, it will only take a few to seed the pond since the bass are not there yet to munch on them. I talk folks out of buying them all the time, since I think it is a waste of money in an established bass pond. However, in your case a little money spend now on fatheads will result in tons of fatheads later to kick start your bass. Good luck.

Update:
The contractor had a couple old projects that had been on hold come to life so it hasn't progressed quite as fast as anticipated, but that has been a good thing as most of the pond area was covered in hay and we were late in getting it all off.

I have a 24 ton excavator and took some of the trees out myself. They will take out the remainder. They have lasered and calculated the water levels and marked them as well as dam boundaries. They have piled some of the brush out of pond area and started removing topsoil in the dam area.

I have received an application for the bluegill, redear, largemouth bass, and channel cats to stock it. As Kevin and others suggested, it is very economical for those through the NCRS office.

I would like to find a source in this general area (intersection of Interstates 57 and 70) for Smallmouth Bass, Hybrid Stripers, Fathead minnows, Grass shrimp, and Crayfish.

It is progressing!

Jeff

I also agree with greg, I would not hesitate to introduce the fatheads. Your bluegills will benifit from having them to forage on. They will also have a chance to get a jump start on the bass. Minnows have plenty of positives to a pond as long as you do not try to intoduce to many of them. In your case I do not believe that you will add more than 100 ponds per acre that we use on the ponds in Wisconsin. We have seen some great grow rates on the Hybrid Blue Gills as well as the bass that we put in. The advice of waiting on the bass is great advice as well. Good luck and hopefully you will invite all of use to come and fish when it is all done.

Not being a fish catching type person, more of a plant growing nut, I'd be very interested to hear what difference plantings make to supporting the different priorities of raising fish...

Going through a book on species native to North Carolina, so many varieties of fish rely on plants, either direct or indirect for example eating crustaceans... Some stats on how many fish can be raised per square yard of well planted pond would be an interesting ratio, allowing for the inhibiting aspect of the plants effect at reducing oxygen levels through photosynthesis

I can well imagine ponds acres in size could have a serious problem if fish are introduced before there is a positive food chain established, are there some combinations of plants which create habitats that are more efficient for different species, than others?

In a pond with carp, growth rates are massive, a koi might grow to 20" in two years with low density and 60% of the pond well planted with a mix of plants that increase the surface area, create shade and cover on a still pond

Does that correspond with other fish species where the lakes are acres in size rather than yards?

Regards, Andy

Thanks for the additional advice. Many thanks also and especially to lakedoctor for his advice via two phone calls. All of you and he have been very helpful.

I do plan to fatheads and extra bluegill. I would really like to obtain a bunch of crayfish and grass shrimp to stock if I could locate a good source in this general area.

I need to learn more about the balance of plants and fish. I have purchased that book (and others) through Pondboss, but loaned it out to a friend who was having weed problems in his pond.

In a county with lots of clay soil, we have hit the motherload of rich black dirt where the dam will be placed. The contractors have been busy digging down to clay and moving the good dirt out of the way. Not a lot of progress to report other than that as we continue to have lots of rain.

I'll post some pics as it progresses if I can figure out how...

Thanks again!

Jeff

Medicine men and snake charmers tried for years, but where they failed, I have succeeded! The true secret to making rain is to attempt to build a pond that drains a large area.

Several neighboring farmers have told me that they can't remember us ever getting this amount and frequency of rain at this time of year. I can only attribute it to my pond and ask for their donation.

Seriously, we have been getting a LOT of rain and construction of the pond has stopped numerous times because of it. It will get there though!

Is there any way to post pics here for when I get some? Without knowing programming code?

Jeff

Rangersedge,
I found this post by Bob K by searching for "posting pictures" under questions and observations topic.
Note: I tried to include the string Bob is refering to but it wouldn't take. You'll have to search to see it.
Ric

Pond Boss has UBB code enabled which is how I post my pictures. It is really easy to use. The following is the string that is required to post a picture.

Just replace the home.mine.bob with your storage area for pictures. My ISP gives me 50mb as part of my basic internet service for my homepage.
and the picture.jpg with the name of the picture you wish to show.
I hope this helps out and maybe someone else has some information to add to this topic.

Rangersedge where are you know on your Lake building process. I for one am in the very very first stages of the thing in fact the monday I will have the guys from the DNR out on the place for the first time. I just closed on buying this tract a week ago from yesterday..
Hopfully my lake will be 10 to 12 acres.

Thanks Ric! I will try to post some pictures once I get them developed.

Big Pond: I am about 1/3 done probably.

Quite a bit of topsoil has been moved, the island has been shaped somewhat with about 2/3rd of the soil between it and connecting point removed, the keyway has been dug and packed, the dam has been built about 1/4 of the way up with exception of where the drainage area's ditch goes through. They are waiting until most of rest is done to seal that shut and finish the dam as it will then be a race with the water to the top.

There seem to be several springs which bring both excitement and concern.

I have obtained an application to have the state fisheries dept stock it with bluegill, redear, largemouth bass, and channel cat. I have found a fisheries place that will sell smallmouth and hybrid striped bass as well as fathead minnows.

I haven't found and am still seeking a place where I could purchase the smaller shrimp that some have referenced or crayfish for stocking.

Did you sell any timber where the lake is? I have to get a permit for the lake then get the timber criused then sell the timber. It is mostly hardwood of course. Hope to get at least $30 to $35 a ton for it.

No. I didn't sell any timber off it. The trees that were there were primarily cottonwoods and willows. They're currently stacked into a big brushpile below the dam.

Pond update... Construction was progressing nicely, then it started raining again. We needed the rain so I'm not griping...

The dam is now full width and about seven feet short of the top. The contractors went with a 4 to 1 slope front and back for added strength on the dam. Lot of extra dirt, but very good clay and should be for keeps. They also did two or three extra keyways where the drainage ditch previously went through just to be safe.

We've moved the spillway location from original plan to a place where it could also serve as the spillway for another adjacent, smaller pond (maybe 1.5 or 2 acres?) that I hope to build next summer.

The rain this week resulted in about 3 feet of water near the dam of the pond and will prevent me from getting some of the topsoil out that I had planned. I really should have gotten that out before dam construction started, but we did get most of it... They put quite a bit of the good rich dirt on top of the island. I plan to plant a bunch of flowers all over the island next year. The water won't have any effect on the dam construction.

The contractors hit some rock a few feet down on part of the contour where they were going to get a large amount of clay for the dam. As a result, they are getting dirt from another area of the pond (previously hills) for the dam and removing more clay between the island and the bank (extending the gap). In effect, making the pond's surface area bigger, but with a smaller amount of deep water. The acre and a half or so where they hit rock would be under around 3-4 feet of water as is. I plan to take my trackhoe and brother's dump truck to remove some more so the water level is around 4.5 feet deep in that area leaving a lip between this area and main lake body. I will also get a few semi-truck loads of pit run rock (pea gravel, sand, small rocks) and dump in that area. Should be a great place for swimming and possibly fish spawning. Hopefully, the lip should help keep the gravel / sand in that area instead of down on the lake bottom.

I bought a pontoon boat about a week ago. Kinda looking forward to putting it on the lake most of the time. Thinking about docks, boat houses, and fish feeders, fertilizer, seeding, and keeping out tresspassers a bit more now...

Thinking seriously about stocking fathead minnows, crayfish, and grass shrimp this fall and not stocking any other fish until next spring. Having difficulty finding a source for grass shrimp (see creating food chain - grass shrimp), but do have a lead I need to check out Tuesday.

Pretty much planning to build some mini-dams near the head of the three major valleys feeding water to the pond. My thoughts are that I would build these little dams above the water level in the main pond with their own spillways into the main one. I would then stock these ponds with fathead minnows, crayfish, and grass shrimp only (no predator fish). My thoughts are that this would serve as a constant self maintaining source of forage that would enter the main pond with each rain... May be less chance this supplemental forage supply being decimated by the predator fish this way (as long as no one "helps" me out by tossing in some predators).

Well... That is the pond's contruction status. Any thoughts or suggestions?

More rain. Now about 8-9 feet of water in the pond and a 70% chance for more rain today. It shouldn't jeopardize the dam, but will change plans a bit.

rangersedge i am from east central illinois and am looking to have a pond dug who is going to do it for you are they cheap and can you give me the number to their office. thanks and good luck

Rangersedge, How far north are you in Illinois? I saw a few places in S.IL. with shrimp, but none in the north. Keystone hatcheries or their affiliate sells pond craws for stocking. Not sure how far south they will go though.
robert b

robert,

Do you have the names or numbers of the places you saw in southern, ill. that had the shrimp. I'd be interested in them since I'm building a pond there.

kevin b

Catfish: I sent you an email earlier this week. Holler if you didn't get it.

Robert: I am probably around 100 miles almost straight east of St. Louis and close to the intersections of Interstates 57 and 70. 130 miles southeast of Springfield. 90 miles northeast of Carbondale.

All: We seeded the island this morning. The main dam should be finished this week. I am renting a dirt scoop to do some additional work myself. Mainly removal of some more topsoil and building the three previously mentioned mini-ponds for forage. I will also be using my trackhoe to do some contouring yet. Overall, I think it has gone well considering the rains and etc. Just trivia, the last guestimate I heard was that the dam contained roughly 43,000 cubic yards of dirt. I'll probably get some GPS mapping done later this year or early next year (once it fills up) for actual dimensions of everything.

Learned another lesson with my pond project. Leave the work to the professionals! ;0

In a location where the contractors had anticipated getting much of the dirt for the dam, they unexpectedly hit a very hard shelf. Well... It didn't take long to figure out that the shelf would be just perfect for a swimming and fish spawning area so it was left. Only thing... I wanted the water level between 4 and 5 feet. To me, the shelf appeared to be too shallow (at around 3 foot).

Well... I then took it upon myself to take my trackhoe and loosen up the top 18" or so of an area bigger than a volleyball court. You guessed it... A couple days later, the contractor shot it with the laser. Water level had already been between 4 and 5 feet and would now be between 5.5 to 6.5 feet. Which leads to my question...

The lip that was created will help keep the pea gravel / sand that I wanted to put in that area anyway from washing to the deep area. Realistically, we are now just talking about a lot more of it. I can't afford much at $12 per ton.

What problems would I bring upon myself if I got some sand/gravel out of an old creek for that area? The creek could potentially have some limited runoff related to upstream hog confinement and oil field operations. I am most specifically interested in potential problems related to chemicals and organisms I might be introducing to my pond. If some, would it make any difference if I let the sand gravel set on dry land for a year to dry out before moving to beach area? The creek flows within approximately 200 yards of, but not into the pond (separate watershed).

Thanks in advance!

Rangersedge,
It must be a fairly large creek if you are able to get enough sand/gravel to make it worth while. Therefore with that much running water the stream should be safe unless there has been some major chemical leaching from manufactoring ect. upstream. Any lifeforms brought in with the sand/gravel other than fish should benifit your new lake. If it were mine I would do as you said & store it close by long enough to let any errant minnows or fish eggs die before utilizing.
Ric

Ric: Thanks for the info. The creek isn't huge, but it should be big enough to get quite a bit of sand. Removing some sand should also benefit the creek so should be a win win situation.

The big dam is finished. The lake has been limed and fertilized. Some of the banks are now seeded. Some of the grass on the island is coming up. We received a nice, gentle rain last night that should be perfect for helping it germinate / grow.

We will soon begin building 4 small dams to catch sediment and prevent it from entering the main lake. These sediment ponds will be stocked with only fathead minnows, crayfish, and grass shrimp (some day). That should provide forage base to main body with each rain. I should receive several pounds of fathead minnows on October 2nd for stocking in the main part that has water in it.

The lake was stocked with 40 pounds of fathead minnows on October 2nd.

We haven't had enough free time to build the small dams yet, but we still have time.

Rangersedge,
I'm envious. My new pond hasn't happened yet. The logging was slowed by all the rain. The pond area is now cleared but the loggers have to cross it with their skidder, so it will still be a while longer but not long. I want the dam in before the ground starts freezing. Was hoping to have stocked forage fish by now . Oh well at least I have this site to get ideas like your sediment/forage ponds!
Ric

We have one of the mini-dams almost done. Should finish it yet tonight.

I am still cleaning out some of the topsoil from valleys and etc. Have topsoil about six feet deep in many spots... Which leads me to a dilemna... In cleaning some topsoil out of a ditch, I noticed water coming out. Overnight it filled up some and I'm thinking springs...

I am enthused about the potential upside of having springs, but I am concerned about the possibility of having a large siphon (spring) near the bottom of my lake.

I could probably fill the area back in with clay and pack it. It would have about 25' of water above it so lots of pressure. Should I fill the area with Clay and forget the topsoil or dig out the rest of the topsoil?

I have barged ahead with removing more of the topsoil out of the valleys where there may be springs. I have people telling me I should and others saying I shouldn’t. Frankly, I’m more than a bit anxious about it, but…

I should get the second of the mini-dams done this weekend.

I have had several requests for pictures.

Chris “tritonvt” has generously offered to host pictures of the pond for me. Three of them are located here.

http://www.geocities.com/mc_character/pondboss/pictures.html

I’ve got a lot more that were just developed and I haven’t looked at yet. As soon as I have the opportunity to sort through those, I’ll forward some of the best ones to Chris for future posting.

Thanks to Bob Koerber’s post, I have found a good aerial view of my pond location. Obviously, the pond wasn’t there when the photo was taken. The pond now covers the enlarged valley in the center of the map with another big branch on north side that doesn’t show up as well. The dam is next to the woods at the east end of the valley running east and west. I’ll forward it to Chris soon too.

Rangersedge, did you lake fill up last night? We got a helluva lot of rain last night. My lake is just about full now(again) was a foot low due to summers lack of rain, By the way, I'm not to far from you and was wondering if I could come out and see your project sometime? Pictures are great but sure would like to see the the BIG PICTURE!!! send me an E-mail at bassnut17@yahoo.com

Brad:

It didn't fill up, but it sure got deeper! I had heard that it was supposed to rain so I put a couple flags at the water edge so I could tell how much it raised. Well... I checked this morning and couldn't even find the flags as the tops of them were too far underwater to see. The smallest of the sediment (forage) ponds (the only mini-dam I have managed to finish yet) was nearly filled.

I'm almost to the point of accepting that I might not get all the work I want done this winter. The consequences of that would be draining much of it next summer to finish what I want done. I don't really want to have to do that, but there is still quite a bit of topsoil that I would like out, some shaping I would like to do (mainly underwater contours / structure), the other three mini-dams to finish, and etc. I tried working on one mini-dam last weekend. The 10 wheeler (ex-army dump truck) spun enough on my first load that I gave up on moving much dirt. So I tried doing some other stuff with the trackhoe. Sliding sideways down a slope for about 10 feet in that got my attention. It was slick enough that I never really accomplished too much before having to use the bucket to get myself back up the hill.

Although most new pond owners can't wait for rains to fill up their ponds, I've been hoping for clear weather so I can do more to it. I've also been kicking myself for not allowing myself to take more time away from my work to spend on it this summer and fall.

I'll probably add a coulda / shoulda post to this thread some time in the future so others could benefit from knowing what I did wrong and what I did right.

Sure you can come over and check it out. I'll send you an email. Holler if you don't get it.

Also, I'm hoping to email Chris a bunch of photos yet tonight so there might be some on that link in the future.

Anyone with advice regarding good siphon system design here? I would like a system that I could fairly easily take apart and use in different ponds. It needs to be large enough to drain a LOT of water in a reasonable time. Realistically, how far up could I siphon the water (ie. trying to estimate how low I'll be able to drain it with siphon system)?

Jeff

Rangersedge,
I remember you asking for ideas for something to plant to discourage poachers .. well, with the same thought in mind I am considering reeds, or I think it's called river cane. Where I've seen it growing it's so thick you can forget about going through it. You'll have to go around. Only thing is I wouldn't plant it where it can't be controled with a bush-hog. It does spread! You really can't get through it!!
Ric

Ric:

Thanks for remembering and thinking about my trespasser concerns. I'm not looking forward to that part of having it finished.

I've done a yahoo search for river cane so I could learn more about it. Most of the links I've found so far are about basket making or flutes or blowguns or it being edible so I guess it is versatile. The only really relevant link I've found so far follows.

http://www.tva.gov/river/landandshore/stabilization/plants/river_cane.htm

It certainly appears that it would be thick enough to prevent people from fishing except from a boat. Any downsides? How deep into the water will it grow? How easy is it to control?

A brief update on the lake's status at present...

The water level is probably around 14 feet at the deepest point. It has spread out considerably, but I'm guessing the water volume is still only about 20-25% of full.

Much of the topsoil I still wanted to remove is now under water courtesy of the last major rain. Unless we have really freakish winter weather, I've resigned myself to draining it down to the 10' level or so next summer. This will allow me to complete topsoil removal, the mini-dams, contouring / structure, ensuring 3 foot depths next to shore, etc. Allowing it to fill this winter will result in several positives as I'll be able to see exactly where the water level is and have more time to plan.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... I did much of this backwards. I should have removed all the trees and topsoil asap. I should have then built the mini-dams. Then had the contractor build the main dam. Next time...

I've learned a lot and the folks on this forum have been wonderful and very helpful... Which reminds me of another coulda, shoulda, woulda... I talked with lakedoctor via phone a couple times. He helped me with some choices at no cost. I appreciate his free assistance, but doing it over, I would ask him to come over and check it out in person if he had time. I'm confident it would have been worth whatever it had cost.

Rangersedge,
Here's a couple of links to sellers:
http://www.lewisbamboo.com/
http://www.midatlanticbamboo.com/index.htm
I have never seen cane growing in water & it won't grow too far from shore if planted where the ground away from the water is naturally dry. IE: not constantly moist.
The "coulda, shoulda, woulda"'s are always there. I've resigned myself to the fact I can only do so much reasearch, spend so much money & so much time. I always think I should have done more reguardless of the project. I always see the mistakes which usually go unnoticed by everyone else. I do learn from them but also have learned to look past them to what I am going to accomplish in the end & get to enjoy for the rest of my days! I envy you with your 10 ac lake & all the coulda's, shoulda's, woulda's!
And I've said it before I am SO thankful for this site, the magazine & books, and ALL the help the Greg's & Lakedoctors's have so kindly given!!

Ric

Ric:
Those links to the bamboo distributors made for some interesting reading. Now I'm seriously thinking about planting some bamboo. Do you know if bamboo guzzles water like willow trees or if it would leave a lot of dead vegetation in the water like cattails?
Thanks!
Jeff

Jeff, please try to find out how invasive that stuff can be. went through the area on my way to Mt. Vernon for weekend. did some fishing in west Frankfurt and Pinkneyville. Would hate for that stuff to get into all the strip mines and larger lakes down south.
Robert B

Robert: I just got back from Mt. Vernon about an hour ago. I did read quite a bit about bamboo from the websites and their links. From the info on the websites, it sounds like it should be relatively easy to control in my particular situation even though many are listed as "aggressive". I will do some more reading before ordering. Jeff

Ranger,
There are so many varieties. All I have experience with did not grow in water & did not even grow to the edge of water. It likes moist soil but also likes it's feet dry. There may be some that will I don't know. As I said earlier I won't plant it where I can't control it with a bush-hog. It can be invasive on land over a period of years. I'm sorry I can't comment on the amount of water intake or the litter. I'm still learning too.

Robert,
It can't be carried from pond to pond by birds, boats or whatever. It will only cause a problem if left neglected in suitable soils where your plant it.
Ric

Robert: Thanks for your advice. One of the greatest things about this forum is that you can hear pros and cons of everything from crappie to cane. Many of the canes I read about are listed as "aggressive", but it sounds like they need certain moisture, temperature, etc. conditions to survive. I'll be able to bushhog entirely around my lake. That said, I've never actually seen any "live", but we do have cattails and some other kind of reed grass that grow rampant around wet areas. I'll have concerns if they spread by air carried seed. If they just spread by rhizomes and don't grow in the water, I'm not too concerned. Wisconsin... Hmmm... Any grass shrimp up that way? Are you down this way often? ;-)

Ric: Some of the varieties of bamboo sound pretty neat. I'm a little surprised how expensive they are given that they are classified as aggressive spreaders, but maybe it wouldn't take that many. They could be a neat addition. I still wonder how much water they take, if they leave a lot of debris in the water, and what type of market there is around here for the bamboo products. I am naturally inclined to order some different varieties including the biggest, but I am a little concerned that it might make my lake more obvious to people driving past. I am also a bit concerned that they would withstand the temperatures here.

Jeff, only grass shrimp I've sampled have been in flooded areas or swamps around big muddy R. and near Mississippi R. good idea about the plants drawing attention to your lake, that tall grass is everywhere around reclaimed strip mines. I bet a rattlesnake crossing sign or a sign proclaiming a rattlesnake protection area would deter a few people. Cattails alone will spread and make an effective barrier up here, not sure how fast with all that clay down there. That lack of fertility may play a roll in establishment of other species. I get down there about twice a year. Had last open water trip yesterday until march. I would like to get down in spring to do some prespawn fishing around the shawnee forest.
Robert B

I re-read this and several other pondboss threads tonight. Again, I'm struck with how much good information is on here and what a great site it is. I'm also really struck with how much I have learned over the past eight months and how much I still don't know. Thanks for everyone's help, advice, and interest!

The pond is probably about 4 feet below the spillway yet. It will likley be full before the end of January. I didn't get three of the sediment/forage pond dams done or as much topsoil removed as desired. I fully intend to start draining it shortly after I have had a chance to mark the water levels so I can still do those next summer.

We dug the spillway down 5 feet from the top of the dam. After reading and talking with others more, I'm really tempted to try filling back in about three feet of that (we stacked the removed dirt nearby). If I do that, the lake will be slightly larger and obviously three feet deeper. My island will be smaller unless I use dug out topsoil to build it up - which I probably would. Would I really gain anything or is that something that could always be done later? What are your thoughts as to leaving only two feet of freeboard?

As soon as the ground is frozen hard enough and time permits, I intend to start hauling sand / gravel from a creek to the pond. I'm hoping to put in quite a bit.

My thoughts are firming up regarding species to stock. The bluegill and redears are a given for me. Although I like to catch and eat them, I won't stock crappie in it. I think I will go ahead with channel cats initially with plans to harvest those out.

Eight months ago, I couldn't have dreamed it, but now I'm seriously considering not stocking largemouth bass. I'm really considering stocking smallmouth bass, hybrid stripers, and walleyes as the predator fishes. I realize that reproduction of any of those species may not occur and that I would run the risk of bluegill stunting at 4" or so. We have some other ponds with largemouth bass up to 7 pounds that I could transfer from if needed. What are your thoughts about not initially stocking largemouth?

I've been monitoring the threads on grass shrimp, crawfish, and etc. to get sources for those. By not getting everything done when planned, I will likely postpone getting those until next year when the sediment/forage ponds are done and filled.

Now that I've got all this water in the pond, I'm a bit perplexed as to the specific best way to get most of it back out so I can do more work next summer. I've pretty much decided to try to rig up a siphon system. I'm thinking I will probably need pipe/hose of 6" diameter to make good progress. I've been to the ponddampiping website for ideas. I thought I would rig up a one way valve on the pond side near water level, and a twist or gate valve on the downhill side, a couple pipes sticking up on the dam with twist valves (one for water hose from pump to fill up pipe and other for air to escape from with idea to shut both after water starts coming out the second), and some type of basket and float at water end so stays near but under the surface. I'd like to keep costs relatively low, but would like ability to be able to break it down to use at other ponds too. I'm not an engineer and have no idea how much water would siphon through a 6" smooth pipe per hour or how far up siphoning will pull water, etc.

Any advice, thoughts, etc. greatly appreciated.

In theory if you can get a siphon going you are going to pull a lot of water through that pipe. As long as the output end of the pipe is below the input by even a small elevation (remember water seeks its own level) it will keep siphoning. I'd also be curious to know if any one as had success with such a large siphon line as my pond is almost completely a dug out. I get very good flow due to very large water shed but if it ever requires draw down of any significance it will require either pump or siphon.

We put together a syphon device using 6 inch PVC pipe and it worked very very well. It took us a while to get it going (its very hard to get the air out of the line since gravity will push the water back down into the lake on the lake side of the syphon). Our lake is about 8 acres and we pulled the lake down about 8 feet in less than one week. If you have a way to use a pump to charge the syphon, I suppose it would be easier to start. We filled the line using 5 gallon buckets thru a t-joint at the top on the syphon. We capped both ends of the syphon and unscrewed the caps at the same time to start the syphon. It took us about 4 tries to start the syphon. Once it started, it shot a solid 6 inch stream of water about 6 feet. It was coming out with such force that it would knock you down if you got in front of it. One thing for sure, it will pull alot of water out and quickly.
Bill

Jeff, A 6" pump can only withstand about 40' of head pressure. You can rent those at any rental center. Depending on the slope you are pumping over, you may get it to go a bit more or less than 40'.

Rangersedge,
I used a 4" temp. siphon on my small pond & it worked well the first time I drained it. However the pond filled back up before I could clear the original drain so I tried it again. Everything went well for 3 days then it just stopped. I had seen a 6" turtle in the pond & suspect it got stuck on the inlet stopping the siphon which allowed air to gurgle up the outlet. It is much more difficult to start the siphon when the water level is 20' down the dam face.
Recommend: 1)Use a basket or some device on the inlet. 2)If you float the inlet be sure it's suspended well below the surface to prevent sucking air when it creates a whirlpool. 3)6" gate valves are expensive (I found one at a salvage co. for $125.00) & I think unnessesary. PVC ball valves will work fine.
I like your idea for starting the syphon ie: combo. of valves ect.

Thanks for the information regarding siphoning. It was reassuring to hear how quickly a 6” line will siphon out a pond. If it will do 8 acres 8 feet in less than a week, it will hopefully do about 12 acres 15 feet in three weeks or less (some of that 12 acres will be much shallower than 15 average). I’ll also check into getting the PVC ball valve vs. gate valve if the ball valve is cheaper. That could save me some money and work just as well. I’m now feeling pretty confident regarding the siphon system.

A couple other questions…

We dug the spillway down 5 feet from the top of the dam. After reading and talking with others more, I'm really tempted to try filling back in about three feet of that (we stacked the removed dirt nearby). If I do that, the lake will be slightly larger and obviously three feet deeper. My island will be smaller unless I use dug out topsoil to build it up - which I probably would. Would I really gain anything appreciable by the extra lake depth / size or is that something that could always be done later? Lake is about 650 yards long, probably about 650 feet wide at widest, somewhat curving, no trees from west for about a mile. Somewhat protected from other directions. What are your thoughts as to leaving only two feet of freeboard?

Eight months ago, I couldn't have dreamed it, but now I'm seriously considering not stocking largemouth bass. I'm really considering stocking smallmouth bass, hybrid stripers, and walleyes as the predator fishes. I realize that reproduction of any of those species may not occur and that I would run the risk of bluegill stunting at 4" or so. We have some other ponds with largemouth bass up to 7 pounds that I could transfer from if needed. Some have told me that this arrangement could work, others have said stock largemouth, bluegill, redear, and forget it. What are your thoughts about not initially stocking largemouth? Should I stock some of the smallmouth bass, hybrid stripers, and walleyes just to satisfy my desire for variety; but stock largemouth to make sure it works with as little management as possible?

Thanks!

Rangersedge-for your trespasser worries get a bunch of "traps" or "warning- beaver traps" "hidden animal traps" type of signs. trespassers know how to ignore "no trespassing" signs but they wont walk around a lake where they think there are large bear traps hidden on the ground.

Small Mouths spawn in lakes, and as far as I know don't need current to spawn. I read a paper done by the wisconsin DNR on spawning success of SMB in a seepage lake, no inlet, no outlet, no current. Not surprising thier bass spawned every year.
SMB do produce fewer eggs than LMB, a SMB female lays about 8,000 eggs per pound of body wieght. LMB lay about 13,000 per pound.
I hope to put SMB in my 10 acre pond (currently under construction) in the next couple years.
Your walleyes won't spawn with out a miricale, a river, or a lot of rock on a ton of shoreline.

Mixing up the predators on a lake like this might require you to mix up the prey too. None of the fish you mentioned do very well on BG. Have you considered yellow perch? Golden shiners? Muddminnows? I don't have all the answers on those fish but it seems like they might have a place in your pond.

Mark: I’ve thought about getting some signs made. I’ve actually considered having a sign made that says to the effect “the local health authority has determined eating fish from this water may be hazardous to your health”. I’m the local health authority (seriously) and I’d be mad enough to endanger their health if I caught them so it would technically be accurate… Doubt if I actually do that though…

TyW33: I’ve never even seen a yellow perch and don’t know if they could live around here. Although I would prefer a variety and the more exotic fish like smallmouth, walleye, and hybrid striped bass; I may wind up going ahead with stocking some largemouth in it to help control the bluegill. I may stock the LMB later and at a lower than normally recommended rate to give the smallmouth and others a bit of a competitive advantage for however long that would last. I don’t know. I guess it is good that I still have about a year to think about it.

A friend of mine (who has his masters in biology) called me today to retract his previous advice of just stocking bluegill, redear, and bass then managing just for the bluegill. He had talked with a fisheries consultant about my pond. That person told him that crappie would probably be fine in my sized pond as long as I gave the other fish (bass, bluegill, etc.) a couple years’ head start.

I’m beginning to think this lake construction / fish management stuff is 2/3rd science, 1/3rd art, and 3/5 magic or something. I’ve learned that I still have a lot to learn! ;-)

Just a quick update to say that my lake is almost full. Just a matter of inches to go before she is full. :-)

And then I'll mark off all the areas where the water level came and drain the rascal... ;-(

down to a depth of about 10 feet so I can do some more work this summer.

We stocked 40 pounds of fathead minnows (10 - 16,000?) in it last August so I figure the extra time without any other fish will probably help boost their numbers.

Thinking would possibly stock bluegill & redear either this fall or next spring with other fish next fall or following spring. Still reading and getting advice in what time I have.

Rangersedge,
It's gota be a drag to drain it after finally getting it full but I'm sure with all thought & foresight you've given this lake it's gonna be the envy of pond owners
I have a sneaky feeling you won't be through working on it even when you think you're finished. If you're like me there'll always be something else you'll want to do.
Did you ever get an answer on raising the spillway? I would think it would have alot to do with the amount of watershed you have. I don't know the numbers but if lake size matches watershed + stream input then I would think 2ft of freeboard would be fine.

Ric:

Yes. A lot of people think I'm crazy and it would be financially better to postpone the work, but I know it will be much better long term once get all of the sediment basins in with forage stocked in them and etc. so forging ahead.

Watershed is about a 10 to 1 ratio. It has filled up in about 8-9 months?

You're right that I will probably never "finish" it.

I've resigned myself to not raise the spillway height for some time. Maybe 10 or 15 or 20 years down the road when want to drain it again for whatever reason... I can always do that fairly easily...

Jeff

We've received a lot of rain over the past few days and my lake is now overflowing. About a four inch deep stream going over the spillway. Doesn't seem to be cutting in so looks good.

Keep a close eye on it .. once it starts if it starts ...

We've received around 7" of rain the last few days. At one point, an eight foot wide one foot deep stream was running over my spillway. So far, so good though. I haven't noticed any sloughing on the dam or much cutting on the spillway. I did notice LOTS of inch long minnows and several crawfish in the grass near the bottom of the spillway. Hoping that means the fatheads have spawned and they are thick as can be as haven't put any other fish in there.

Here is a link to a few recent pictures that my nephew is hosting for me on his website.

http://www.fryesonline.com/gallery/pages/showgallery.php?sgid=JeffLake&gid=

As an understatement, you can be justifiably proud of your lake, Rangersedge.

I needed to relax some yesterday so I went up to my lake. I rode my ATV near the shore and was pleased to see fathead minnows about every place I stopped. As I made my way around it, I was starting to feel pretty good.

When I was almost done, I noticed a black cloud of tiny fish about a foot in diameter... Ding! I've read too much on here to ignore that. I jumped off and managed to catch one. It was a stupid yellow belly catfish about an inch long!

Like many of the other posters with this problem, I have no idea how that could have happened except that someone "helped" me out. No pond anywhere up drainage that they could have came from. Not really any way they could have came up over the dam from downstream. All the books say forget our feathered fiends as the source...

I guess I no longer have to worry that someone will "help" me out. I'd sure like to "help" out whoever "helped" me out, but I'll probably never find out who that was.

I'll try to get rid of those. They were close to the bank last night. Tonight, I thought I'd try a net of some type to catch them and even thought about shooting into the water (I would take safety precautions) near them hoping that the shock wave would bring them up or kill them.

I had planned to delay stocking fish other than fatheads until next year. Should I go ahead and stock this year in light of this development or will the predator fish catch up to eliminate them even if they have a big headstart?

...I'll post / review again info also over in the other more appropriate threads. This has become like a one thread journal of its progress.

Ranger, that's enough to make a person sick, you've done a ton of work trying to do things the "right" way, and now this. Hopefully it's not that bad, and it's something the predators will eventually control. I would become a "little" more agressive on the stocking program, you now have an undesireable addition to the forage base. Get the bass going strong, it's a lot of fun when you're "forced" to cull the bass ! Good eating too

Rangersedge, could you comment on how isolated your lake is? Do other people live near by? Do you see signs of other people having been around like footprints? etc.

As you've mentioned about other threads on this topic of bullheads, it seems so many pond owners have this scenario of a new pond (isolated from other fish water habitats), but still finding bullheads.

Then it makes you wonder why someone would catch or get some bullheads and then transport them to some other lake. Certainly, this may happen at some ponds, but to think that this happens all around the nation; that trespassers are coming in and "spiking" our ponds with bullheads.

The water was a bit choppy, but I found them (I've only seen one bunch) again last night. I had stopped at wally world and bought the best net type thing I could find. That was a swimming pool leaf skimmer and it didn't work well. I'm guessing I got maybe a fourth to a third of them. The net's rim was plastic and it just bent back way too far when I drew it quickly through the water. I'll try to find them again tonight.

To have spawned, I'm guessing a couple adult fish were put in there last fall. The dam is 30-40 feet tall from the backside and it never overflowed until recently (posted here).

I can't understand why anyone would have put them in there intentionally. I'm well liked. Maybe someone didn't know that bullheads are bad? Still, I would have thought that anyone who knew about the lake would have known my stance on stocking it, trespassing, etc. though...

The lake is about a quarter mile from two roads and about a half mile from two others. You can't see it from any of them though and a person would have to trespass on my ground on foot for quite a ways from any direction to reach it (unless they drove through a field).

I can't figure out how the catfish got in it. I wouldn't think they would have been in with the fatheads by mistake. They look different and I wouldn't think that hatcheries would even raise bullheads.

They're in though so now I've got to figure out what to do. I've gotten a lot of cinder blocks and concrete slabs. I had planned to put those in there for structure and to keep sand / gravel in spawning areas from washing into main lake body. Those cinder blocks would give minnows a good place to hide. I wanted that, but I don't want those bullheads to have a place to hide... Emotionally, I want every single one of them gone now. Logically, after reading other posts about how vulnerable they are to predation at this age, I'm thinking that I'll remove all I can, proceed with previous plans, and hope the other fish can eliminate them in the future.

Still planning to partially drain the pond very soon (as soon as get more time), make sure the minimum depth will be three feet, build sediment basins, create more contours on the bottom and sides, place the blocks and concrete, haul in sand/gravel, and etc.

I hadn't posted an update for a long time. Here's a real quick one.

I never got the lake drained down like planned. Mainly due to time constraints.

I talked with a fisheries biologist for quite a while earlier this week when requesting an application for fish stocking*. I need to get that sent back before August 31st so need to decide soon on some things.

* $25 application + $1 per acre - price will increase significantly next year.

We had a good conversation. He suggested the bluegill, redear combination at 1000 total per acre stocked this fall with 100 channel cats per acre, then stocking largemouth bass at 100 per acre next year. Said for a lake this size, they might even bring them out to the site.

I asked about walleye, smallmouth, and hybrid striped bass. He said I'd need to be aware that walleye would almost certainly just be a put and take situation. Like most here, he said don't mix largemouth and smallmouth as the largemouth will take over. Seems like said about largemouth could be more dependable at controlling bluegill populations. Seems like he said he wasn't aware of anyone around this area utilizing hybrid striped bass as sportfish in ponds - mainly just commercially.

I need to decide real soon exactly how to stock it... Any last minute reassurances or suggestions?

We also talked about pipes through the dam vs. spillways. He is apparently an advocate of pipes drain pipes with anti-seep collars through the dams. I think the main reason was to remove the bad water from the lake bottom, but also ease in controlling water levels. Too late now, but made me wonder again if I shouldn’t have gone with a drain pipe in the bottom.

Seemed like a real nice guy and was an interesting conversation.

Nephew who works for a construction company brought home a fancy laser level so we shot the elevations and such. Decided we can raise the spillway about two feet without messing things up too much. It is currently about five feet below top of dam so that would leave plenty of safety margin.

We also measured my island. It is 311 feet tip to tip and shaped more like a banjo than I realized. The big part where I'd like to put a gazebo is 105 feet wide. The remainder is about 65 feet wide on average. In other words, about half an acre. The island is lower than the dam and is somewhat sloped towards the dam. I realized it during construction and would have preferred it the same height and level, but decided against insisting. I now regret that I didn't insist and offer to pay extra to ensure it was the same height and level. Now, I have a great stand of nice green grass which I hate to tear up and have to reseed if I redo... ...

Someday... I'll build that gazebo, deepen the levels and raise / level the island.

First priority is getting those sediment ponds finished - especially after reading Otto's article. I'll probably also have done or do a bit of work to make sure an alternate spillway is lower than the dam just in case we get a huge flood.

The application for fish stocking was sent in on August 30th so should be getting some real fish in it before too long.

Mowed around the lake and the island. Made it look nice; but now have goose explosion. Mother and sister counted over 130 on my island before they stopped counting. They estimated over 200. My island is now covered with goose droppings. I'm getting a goose stamp and some friends and I are going hunting!

Also, had a revelation today. I'd been noticing funny looking ugly "ducks" that dove down and stayed underwater a long time. This afternoon, a brother, his wife and I watched some of them and the thought hit me... Could those be cormorants? Surely not! Those are a southern problem... Well tonight, I pulled up pictures and range data. I think those weird ducks are cormorants!

Someone should have warned me that this lake stuff isn't like instant pudding! You can't just pick out some land, pay some money, and have a great lake with lots of great fish / wildlife, admiring women, and envious friends.

It is still worth it, but it sure isn't simple!

Hey Ranger!
Even if you don't shoot them, harrassing the geese will help keep them away. We don't hunt ponds more than once every week for fear of the geese not comming back.
How far away from your house are the geese? When out of season you can use some of those "pop boom" shotgun shells that will fire a small explosive like an m80 firecracker over to where the geese are.
We don't pluck the geese. Just expose the breast & remove two very nice filets! Great bbq'd!

Just a quick update to say that 900 largemouth bass about 1.5" - 2" long were released into the pond today.

Man it's starting to come along very nicely!
Is all your structure below the water though?
Have any new pics to show?

BD: Actually, most of my structure is still a ways from the pond. I have lots of large and small concrete chunks (much from ripped up modular home foundation), lots of concrete blocks, some hollow logs, etc. stacked about 1/8 mile away. I planted wheat around the pond (being combined today) and found bullheads. Wanting to drain it down quite a ways to do some work to it (build more sediment dams, dig holes, create trenches down contours, create ledges on side contours, maybe a couple underwater humps, etc.). I have had 14" diameter PVC pipe on order for some time now. Will hopefully get it drained down to maybe 5 acres and 10 feet deep for the summer / fall so I can get the desired work done on the remaining acreage. Not sure I want to put the structure in there for bullheads to spawn in, but will count on bass / etc. wiping them out I guess. Jeff

Jeff,

In looking at this post, its been a little over two years since you started this project, Happy Anniversary! Thanks for taking the time to keep us updated.

Russ

I now have a bunch of pipe and such to drain down the lake so can make some changes next summer. One of the changes I'm considering is putting rip rap on my dam as I'm getting some wave action on my dam and a few other areas.

Any suggestions if I should put some type of matting underneath it or of best way to prevent rip rap from going too far down the dam (dam is at a 4:1 slope)?

Thanks!

Jeff, you got any recent pics you can post?

Rangersedge :

If you are having erosion as a result of wave action then I think you should think about taking steps to stop it. Rip-rap or clay and gravel or fabric liner with rock. We have the same problem on a pond where the erosion line is right where a seam exists from when we raised the dam and it is a problem. Will probably add a bentonite and clay strip over the seam then a fabric liner then more clay and then rock and rip-rap. I ran that by Mike Otto at the DFW meeting and he said it was a real good idea because if not fixed and the seam became wet through the dam the entire added part could slough off and the dam fail. ewest

Sunil: No new pics. I tried to hire someone to fly some of us over with camera / video camera this spring, but didn't work out. I may try again next year after getting work done.

Ewest: I'm thinking I will do that next summer while it is down. I've got to get prices for the matting and rock. Considering raising the spillway by 2-3 feet eventually (would just be a matter of filling in half of spillway dug out 5 feet below top of dam). One side of me says should go ahead, raise the spillway, and place the matting / rock based upon that thus saving cost of doing twice. Other side says I should wait several years to do that and the rock would provide good habitat anyway. I can't decide which course to take, but will pursue one or another next summer. Unless I hear of a better way, will probably just have rock dumped on top of dam and scoop it up / place it with my trackhoe. Is there a better way?