Hello all, I dug a pond about a month and a half ago. Started filling it with a spring that is piped over to the pond. The spring runs about 3 gallons per minute. The pond was built on a slope and all the dug ground was taken to the low side to build the berm of the pond. The top soil was all striped and all soil below that held a ball when squeezed with your fist. Its final height should be about 12 feet but I have hit about 6 feet and its not going any higher for over a week. It was going up rather nice, about 1" per day but slowed and then finally stopped. I could state another 10 pages of facts but the only one that seems relevant is the pond was rolled with a giant pay loader once completed. Its a 30 ton machine on rubber tires and compacted 20 times better than the dozer or excavator I was using. Should I start worrying, it sealing with chemicals easier than I think or could this be seepage in a newly dug pond??? I am in Central Pa and haven't had much rain either. Thanks in advance!

Rebuck, welcome to the site. How frustrating to have your pond built, then not fill.
Can you see any wet spots behind the dam anywhere? Was there a rock seam in the bottom during the build?

Hey cmm. Thanks so much for taking time to understand my issues. We didn't hit ANY rock! It's was very odd cause my house is 1/4 acre from this pond and it took 150 sticks of dynamite to get my foundation in. Very shaley around here but this pond is in the bottom land of a big valley. I maybe saw three or four rocks total and they were round river Rock looking. I am about 200' away from a medium size creek which is where I will overflow to if I ever fill up and about 60 feet from a healthy spring that ran through the very dry summer we had. Some of our clay had a sandy consistency but always was able to ball in your hand and got really "bitchy" when rolled with the big loader.

Thanks again. Any advise, words of wisdom or comfort are welcome.

Hindsight is 20/20, but the preferred way to compact soil is in 6"-8" lifts with a sheepsfoot roller. Do this 3-4 times so the layers knit together.

As water depth increases, water pressure increases at the lower reaches of the pond. Roughly 1/2 psi for every foot water depth.

Keep the water going in, it could be that the soil just needs to absorb more water before the level starts rising. If not, then I would look at SoilFloc Polymer Sealant. Talk to teehjaeh57 for more information on it.

I have a water table pond, in sand. If the water table drops, I can increase the pond level, but the water seeps out at the rate of 18 GPM, so unless I keep pumping in water faster than that, it's a loosing battle.

Welcome to the forum!!

Welcome to PBF Rebuck!

I'm not a pro but here's a couple of thoughts...

IMHO All ponds lose water to some extent, even if just thru evaporation. As Esshup pointed out, if you have a "leak" that can increase those loses significantly.

Perhaps another consideration...You stated that your water flow in is only 3 GPM. You haven't provided any info on size of the pond but, unless the slope is straight up and down, the amount the pond rises per unit of water input will decrease as the pond gets deeper and the surface area increases. It may be you are reaching equilibrium where losses are near 3 GPM so the pond will continue to rise very little, if at all. Do you have a substantial area of water shed that can provide a large influx of water during a significant rain event to help fill the pond?

Good luck and, again, welcome to PBF!

Bill D.

My pond is just around an acre of disturbed soil. Its an oval shape with the long end around 300 feet by 175 feet wide. All the springs are on the other side of the road from me but they collect through a 24" culvert. I collect the outlet of this culvert into a big box and run 4" pipe from the box to the pond. I am only running that pipe about 1/20th of what it can handle so if I got a good rain, I will send a lot of water to the pond. One of the reasons I still have some hope of this working is we haven't had more than 1/10th an inch of rain per week since I started filling the pond. Last weekend there was flash floods about 50 miles north of us with 7 inches of rain in 4 hours but we got around 1/10".

I think one of the issues I am having is compaction of the undisturbed side. We focused a lot of effort on removing dirt from the high side and building the berm on the low side. The berm is about 12 feet or so high. There was a 5 foot deep key way cut all the way around the low side. The berm was built about 12" at a time and then compacted with an excavator and dozer. After all completed we rolled it in with the big loader I have talked about but we really didn't do anything to the side we were removing the dirt from. The guy helping construct this wasn't worried about that part of the dam at all. He stated it will eventually saturate but the low side could leak and get worse fast.

I have no leaks on the low side that I can tell. I have an 8" overflow and drain that goes 40' through the berm and I can see no seepage through there either. Maybe a pic would help. I will see if I can find a few to post. Thanks again for your interest!

This is a picture of the final rolling of the pond. We just started adding water to the pond at this point and the loader was almost done rolling in the berm but we didn't spend much time on the existing side where we removed the material from.

This is where we are currently. I have that iron pipe pounded in the ground and a tape measure taped to it every foot so I can closely measure things.

I would give it time.

3 GPM is nothing, for a pond that size. If you said 50, well then you might be more concerned.

A new pond that size will fill the bottom up quickly. Remeember the volume in a bottom , per inch, of a pond is nothing compared to the volume once you get half way up. Then it takes a lot more water to fill. Sounds like that is what happened.

Give it time, with some nice rain falls, and see where it is at. Even then, it will drop and need some more to refill back up. Then it will be a matter of occasional rains to get a basis of water loss versus fill-up.

You might survey your property when it does rain and see if there is anyplace you can create a swale to capture more runoff faster, if you should need it later on.

Like Esshup says, hindsight. But can't do much more without costing some money. And it might be money spent but not needed because of patience. Wait and see what happens in the next year. Start your stocking plans while you are waiting. Lining up what you need and when. That will help pass the time.

Patience......

Thanks... I just happened to be filling a pond during the driest time I can remember. We are about 7 inches short on rainfall in my county and other parts of the county got WAY more rain that we did.

The pond is filling with leaves. Will that hurt or help seepage? I tend to think that gunk it turns into will help but I also fear that if I have to chemically treat these leaks, they will hinder progress.

I have no real way to capture runoff faster. There isn't much except for the culvert on my side of the road. I used to have a 55 gallon drum with a 1" pipe feeding the pond but I switched to a tool box with a 4" outlet. Even in hard rains I have not seen that pipe full and I was down there in pouring conditions. 1/2 full is the best I have seen it but that is about 12 times better than what I have normally. We also have not had a "gully washer" yet. At first I was liking the no rain because the berm and surroundings had no grass to knit them together but now I have some decent grass everywhere so let it rain. Something like an inch per day for 10 days. Then I can reassess!

+1 to have patience

Some rough numbers...

A 1 acre pond with average depth of 6 feet holds about 2 million gallons of water. At 3 GPM that is about 460 days to fill assuming no losses to evaporation, seepage, etc.

Rain would be great!

Quick update.... Got a little rain. I have been loosing 1/16in per day. It rose almost exactly 1/4 inch from a 1/4 inch of rain. Since I have been trying to fill this pond we have not had more than 1/4 inch of rain at a time. No real rain again in the 7 day look ahead. As I drive I look around and see many other ponds in the area low. I wonder if they were low before and I missed it or if its extremely dry right now. My wife and I also looked a little closer at the in feed pipe and we are both pretty sure its more 3GPM but we haven'[t measured it yet. I can't wait for a "gully washer" to see if I come up more than the rainfall amount.

To clarify another question from above, I am collecting the watershed of about 50 acres. Spring fed 99% of the time and when it rains I collect that also but the rain we have gotten for two months has only soaked in, not run off yet. Very dry!

The problem with spring fed ponds is that if the water table is low and the spring stops feeding the pond, the water reverses in the spring and goes out of the pond.

Same thing happens if the water pressure at the spring opening in the pond is higher than the water pressure IN the spring.

There is no one way valve on a spring, water flows both ways, depending on what has more pressure, the pond or the spring.

Hello esshup and thanks for your input. I'm not an expert and appreciate anyone who would take time to read about my delema and take time to comment. So thanks.

That being said, I'm confused. Maybe I didn't explain and if so, sorry. But maybe I have the wrong mental model and have to come up with another plan....

I live in a deep valley. The springs come out of the ground about 100 yards above the pond and run constantly down through our hollow. The water crosses the main highway here through a 24" colvert. I collect the water on the down stream side of the big pipe and run it into a 4" pipe to the pond another 100' away. I could see the springs ebb and flow directly affecting my pond if it was under it or below it but would it really have a direct affect if the spring is so far above and away? Could be, if so, I'm gonna need some advice. I'm staying constant between 75-76 inches and need at least double that for it to start looking normal. If I don't increase significantly by end of spring, I'm going to start pumping from the nearby creek but my wife and others feel we would be so much cleaner if we stayed with the spring feed rather than the creek with everyone's "garbage" upstream. Any input would be appreciated. I talked to an old guy at the Mason's building this weekend and he said he couldn't remember a time when their pond was lower. That made me feel a little better. We will see.

Thanks in advance!

You are good. I was under the assumption that the spring was "in" the pond.

New ponds take time to have all the newly excavated dirt absorb all the water to saturation. So, in a new pond it is common for the water to rise and fall as the dirt soaks up the water. Once the dirt is saturated, then it should hold water pretty well. Ponds don't seal like a bathtub, they all leak a little - it's the nature of the beast, but you really want to have more water coming in than goes out whenever possible.

The amount of water soaked up by a new pond depends a lot on the type of dirt comprising the basin and the amount of thick or deep layer compaction of the basin or liner. The minimal recommended compacted clay layer as a liner is usually 2 ft thick. In dug ponds in my area with good well compacted clay for a liner that is usually 8 ft wide/thick, there is basically no immediate visible water loss once the pond is filled. The pond is filled and stays basically full until evaporation causes water loss. The looser the composition of bottom soil in a pond the more water absorption that will occur especially if there is some sort of leak through loose or improperly compacted soil. Basically all dirt bottom ponds leak, the difference is the degree of leakage from minimal to measurable loss per day.

Once you get rains with a decent amount of watershed runoff especially over frozen ground the pond will fill. Once full and input spring water becomes "normal" you will get a good idea of the amount of seepage through the basin. Then when the water level stabilizes, this gives you a good idea of how well the banks above the water level were-are compacted/sealed. Usually somewhere above the stabilized water level are the leakage areas.

You explain "The berm was built about 12" at a time and then compacted with an excavator and dozer. After all completed we rolled it in with the big loader I have talked about but we really didn't do anything to the side we were removing the dirt from." If your pond fills then recedes to near the current depth you have major leakage/s somewhere in the walls above the water level and the first place I would explore or fix is the side that was not layered and compacted.

IMO 12" thick lifts are too thick to get good soil compaction. A dozer or excavator are poor soil compactors due to the weight of the machine is spread out over a wide area. A dozer operator who built ponds told me that you can cover a chicken egg with 3" of dirt and dive over it with a dozer and not break the egg. Drive over the same egg with a bicycle and you will break the egg all due to weight distribution - wide vs narrow.

If I understand you correctly the final compaction of the soil especially in the dug out area of the basin was performed mainly on the finished pond basin by driving around with the 30ton machine. If this is correct, from my experience I would expect leaks to occur in the banks due to poor deep soil and or thick-wide layer compaction. As Esshup mentioned best liner compaction is done by building up thin 4"-6" thick layers and driving over each layer a several times with a good soil compaction machine. Best overall soil compaction machine is a vibratory sheepsfoot roller, 2nd best is a double barrel sheepsfoot roller, 3rd best is a single barrel sheepsfoot roller. The benefit of the sheepsfoot roller is the layers are knitted together to minimize water from seeping between compacted layers or layered "sheets". In good, proper moisture clay a loaded pan will do a pretty good job of compacting thin layers of clay. Digging out soil and then just surface compacting the finished dug out area results in poor deep, thick, layer compaction that is needed to produce minimal water seepage through a pond basin. When ever a just compacted surface layer dries out due to drought or animal digging the crack/hole provides a pathway for water seepage.

Rebeck, 3GPM is a nice flow for a spring to drink out of and could start filling your pond. As the water level rises, and surface area expands, the rising water level will appear to stop, and or, evaporation rate can become equal to the inflow rate.

Consider how fast your water level would be rising at 3GPM in a bathtub....and how slow would it rise in a typical swimming pool, and would it rise at all in a football stadium....?

I still haven't gotten around to actually measure our "3GPM". It was a guess and I think a bad one when I first wrote this. There is way more coming out of my pipe than what would come out of a restricted faucet and I think faucets are rated at 2.5GPM. Should be a very hard test with a stopwatch and 5 gallon bucket. It might actually be a good algebra lesson for my daughter who thinks math is useless!

Thanks all for the input again. The spring comment had me scared. Like I said before, for some reason the fellow helping me dig this and the neighbor with he roller wasn't concerned at all about the area we were digging from but rather the berm for leaks. We didn't compact the soil at all in the dug section. Let me explain our method for the berm building cause I do think we got all the compaction needed but again I am not an expert.

I would dig all day with a medium size excavator double and triple throwing the dirt to an area where my excavator could grab it. He would lay it down, fluffy, about 9-12 inches in front of him and then roll the heck out of it and get about a 4 inch gain from that. He would do that three times and then straighten everything out again with the dozer and we would repeat! Very long and tedious process. He let me dig all day and would only work on the berm part. The back of the berm is dry, bone dry.... so its seeping through the bottom or the dug side which wasn't compacted well.

One thing I forgot to mention is about 90% of this pond is above a layer of clay my kids were making pottery out of. It was grey modeling clay, very nice stuff. The very bottom of the pond did dip below that level into a sandy layer but we could ball the material up in our hands and it held a ball. I think the thought was nothing would leak below that grey clay after everything was saturated. We did need to dig through it though to achieve the final height of the berm. The higher that berm got the more material was needed to gain a little more hieght!!!

Do a google search for PSI on a regular track and a wide track dozer (LGP tracks), then google search for PSI with a sheepsfoot roller. Let us know what the difference between the PSI is that you found.

The tracks are on the machine so it doesn't sink into soft ground. Like a snowshoe on a human. So, if it floats the machine on soft ground, it won't compact it properly.

Like I said before, either here or in another post. A bathtub holds water very, very well, but pull the plug and it doesn't hold water that well anymore.

Ponds are the same. Miss compacting an area and it's like pulling a plug in a bathtub.

One whole pond side was dug out and not compacted. There is no way to know what was behind the uncompacted dug out wall.

Rebuck- i had my first pond built in 2008, it was 3/4 acre. i had not found pond boss at the time. the pond was built in a hollow. the dam was cored and all the dirt used for the dam came from the pond bottom. lots of red clay and some of the blue type you talked about. the guys only used a dozer and a track hoe. it had a small stream feeding it, but i never thought it would fill.finally we got some good rains and it filled and has stayed full ever since. we are in an extreme drought here now and last time i talked to the new owner he said it was only down a few inches. i saw it 4 inches low once!

most builders in this area do not compact the sides or bottom. maybe it's because there is lots of red clay in our area. also most pond in our area are not smooth bowls. builders leave humps, ridges, ditches, stumps, etc for structure, which would make it almost impossible to compact.

i am curious how much difference there is in compacted clay and virgin undisturbed clay. i have seen dirt that was almost impossible to break up with a pick in this area.

now on to pond #2. it is almost 2 acres and was built 2 years ago. it has a small stream feeding it, but is almost completely dry now. i didn't think it would ever fill so i used a trash pump and pumped from a larger stream that runs parallel to my pond dam. it filled and leaked instantly. there was standing water behind the dam. i used a different builder for this pond, he had excavators, dozers, a large rubber tire pan, off road dump trucks and regular dump trucks. we hit rock and not so good dirt along the way. i have treated it with soil floc with very good results. the wet area behind the dam dried up within days. we have had almost no rain in months so it was going down fast. i bit the bullet and installed an electric water pump. i had to run 655 ft of wire. the pump is 1.5 hp with 70 gallon per minute max. i can keep it full with ease now. i have it on a meter with my shop, i use about $4.50 in electricity running 24/7. once i got it full i only use it ever so often to keep it topped off. my dirt is so bad here that it looks damp up around the walking area around the pond due to it wicking its way out.

i don't know if this helps or hurts, but chances are you will be fine. just be patient or start pumping like i did.

sorry for all my rambling.

Hey, Scott69, thanks for the rambling. made me feel a little better. I ran into the excavator buddy of mine and we talked a little. He says the virgin clay in the bottom of the pond is better packed than any machine we could rent will pack it. I agree except for possibly some of that sandy stuff on the bottom. He suggested broadcasting some bentonite in before we do anything drastic but also said we need a lot of patience! 8 out of 10 ponds in my area are way down and dropping and mine is at least holding its own. Our county just put a burn ban in effect and declared a second tier drought which water consumption is supposed to be limited.

What makes me happy is my springs that feed this pond are still running. What makes me optimistic is if we ever get more than 1/4 inches of rain in a month, it should recharge these springs and get more flow!

My excavator said he used bentonite twice as a spread across the water and see what happens and he said it worked both times. Anyone else had that work???

As always, thanks in advance for your help!

3 gpm = 4300 gallons per day. There is 27,000 gallons in one acre inch of water. That means it takes about 6 days to move it one inch. When you take into account fresh dry dirt and evaporation I'm surprised it's filling at all. I lost about a 1/4 a day from evaporation during the summer.

It has been unusually dry in your parts this year but don't worry, the rain will come at some point. And when it does I think you will hold fine. My only concern is that you didn't core trench the down side. If you did please disregard. If you didn't, once the pond is full and you get maximum psi at the bottom you need to check the backside for leaks.

Hey fellows, I did a precise measurement today of my flow rate! We tried 5 gallon buckets but the kids couldn't hold it long enough to time it correctly so we found a 2.5 gallon bucket and it filled consistently at 25 seconds. That is a 6GPM flow which I do not believe is terrible during severe drought conditions.

I am not a pond builder (of course) but I would believe a core trench and key way would be about the same thing. I cut a 2 bucket width trench, about 5 foot deep all the way around the low side of the pond where any dirt needed built up. If your standing on the high side the key or core trench went from about 7 o clock around to 5 o clock. It didn't go all the way around for the same reason we didn't compact the high side hill, my excavator didn't think it was needed.

The shame of all this is, I didn't know this site existed prior to digging and only found it AFTER I started getting scared! I'm still holding at 75" deep. I'm glad I pounded an iron rod in the ground and taped a tape measure to it, that way I have a fairly precise measurement. Also, coming home from church today we noticed three ponds that were lower than I have ever seen them. I don't know what types they are but they are old ones that I never noticed were low before. The one was 4 feet low and the others were around three feet low.

Can anyone comment of the broadcasting of sodium bentonite from my earlier post? Could it hurt? Could it possibly mess up the soil flok if needed?

i would be patient first of all. 6 gpm is nothing. i think you will be fine. it will fill up this winter. if it goes to dropping much next spring, i'd go with soil floc, it works.

Soil sealers can work okay. However when there is a drought and water goes down below the sealed area the leak often reappears due the surface layer drying out and cracking.

When cracks appear above the water line in a drought, fill them in tightly with dry Bentonite. Then, when it is wet again, the cracks will stay sealed.

There is always a chance that there was a porous seam in the clay in the excavated side of the pond. Ideally several compacted layers would be plated atop these areas (the entire basin) to prevent these leaks.

When the pond was filling, did you notice any wet spots in the basin that was NOT your incoming spring? Those wet spots may be those seams where water will go in and out depending on surrounding ground water pressure. If you have any indication where these were, you can always drain down a bit to expose those again and address them with Bennonite.

If the bennonite doesn't do the trick, Soilfloc is your next best bet.

Update.... I gained an inch! Yeah.... Actually gaining is better than loosing I guess in the middle of a drought.

I did have two different locations where it was damp while filling on the bottom. Wasn't really wet, just damp enough to to have a little darker shade. Is there a better way to evenly spread bentonite? I have a large area so do you whip it with a shovel, try a broadcast spreader, sprinkle out of a cup? What is the best way for good even coverage?

Like I said though, oddly enough I jumped an inch out of no where with a tenth of an inch of rain last week so that was great. Just need a lot more rain. Almost all the ponds around here are very low.

New update..... Finally got some rain!!!!! Tuesday and Wednesday were awesome. .6" of rain on Tuesday got me about 2" more in the pond and Wednesday we got 1.2" and that got me almost 5" in the pond. We got a long way to go but its really nice to see some progress! I was stuck over a month at 75 inches but now I am at 7 foot and climbing. The rain has more than doubled the flow rate into the pond also so I should gain a little more each day now. I am measuring about 12 GPM now and actually went down to look what it was during a down pour and I was afraid to measure it. I think it would have ripped the bucket out of my hand... I'm guessing about 40-50 GPM but its just a guess. The 4" pipe was over 1/2 full.

I guess now the objective is to hold my higher level now instead of dropping. I am still looking for the best method to broadcast bentonite if anyone cares to share it.

I envy you Rebuck, all during my pond build the weather forecast called for rain off and on, but never amounted to any. Good thing however, my project was a refurb of an old sediment filled pond and if it had rained the results would of been a half finished job with no affordable way to complete. Anxiety was high! Now that it's ready for rain...I can't get any. Now anticipation is High. My pond is at 6 inches deep, 9 and a half feet to go!

Rebuck, I work with Bentonite most days. Spreading bentonite can be done by many ways. If you want to add it to a pond that already has water, I would suggest u blend up a very thick viscus slurry and then pump it to the area u need it. Add the slurry close as u can to the bottom of the pond by where u can pump volume with low pressure. I am not sure u would get much benefit by just adding it to the waters surface and letting it settle to the bottom of the pond, unless it was added to very shallow water depths. Bentonite is a clay that usually comes in a very fine particle size and adding it to the water surface, I would think it would just float at the surface for a while and the wind or wave action would or might disperse it to thin for a layer on the bottom for little benefit. It would work great if it could be added on the ponds bottom before water is introduced. If u want it to go right to bottom , one can add Barite to the thick slurry where the slurry can be weighted up much heaver than water. And will give a much thinner layer of clay. I am not sure what the effects of barite would do to the fish, I don't think it would harm them if it was not added in excess.

In my experience, bentonite will not seal a hydrated pond. It's designed to be incorporated into the clay during the construction phase, then plated over with clay in multiple lifts. Met dozens who wasted thousands pumping bentonite into their ponds with zero benefit, sad deal. Hope your rains continue!

Rebuck,

I think I am missing something here. Why do you think you have a major leak issue?

Hey Guys, specifically Bill D, I am not positive I have a major leak. I wasn't sure of the effectiveness of bentonite but I can get it rather cheap so it was sort of like insurance. I went like 1 month without raising at all. It was really starting to scare me because I have constant flow into the pond.

Now that I finally got some rain, I am really feeling better. I zoomed right passed the 7 foot mark and this morning I was at 90"!!! I probably have another 7 foot to go but as long as I see it constantly going up, even 1/8 inch per day or so, I'm happy. I got like 7-8 inches out of 1 inch of rain which was great but it also doubled the regular flow rate for quite a while.

I am not at all patient! I spent a huge amount of money (way more than expected) and started to panic... I am starting to feel a little better now and quite possibly do not have much of a leak. I hope by spring I am mostly full and can get a better feel for it. I would like to know something about daily loss before I stock it. The stocking kit I want is like $1000 so I would hate to kill the fish while trying to chemically seal it.

Thanks a lot Bill D and others for your comments! I hope to have a New Year's update of a much higher number. Until then, Merry Christmas and God Bless all of you!

Rebuck,
Please consider NOT USING a stocking 'KIT' With the specifics of your pond, the goals of your specific fishery, and the experts here, you need to craft a specific stocking customized for you. Not a KIT!

The kit benefits the person selling the fish and often includes 'filler' and unwanted predators and leads to lots of balance problems with populations later.

Share with us your plans and the kit you ordered please.

I second the motion of your not using a Stocking Kit. Stocking packages will often not produce your goals.

Rebuck,

I third the motion....

Now that I've been on the forum for awhile and read A LOT, I offer this as food for thought. IMHO I also would recommend that you think about what your goals for the pond are first. Want to catch big LMB, or big BG, or have diversity so something is always biting, etc? Once you have figured out the "what kind of fishing you want part" then start thinking about what forage is needed to support that goal. My advice is get the goal in your mind then stock forage that will support that goal and provide habitat that will support that forage. Get that forage and habitat established first. After an appropriate time and the forage base is there, stock your fish that you'll be targeting angling. The pros here will guide you thru a custom stocking plan if you let them know what you want. I can pretty much guarantee that will not match up to a KIT.

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of just stocking pellet trained fish and setting up feeders to sustain the pond. I'm a fan of supplemental feeding pellets though, if you choose to, for your entertainment and perhaps to fill a few forage gaps. I want my pond to thrive even if there are no pellets around. Downside of not primarily feeding your fish pellets is your fish will grow slower in the short term (but may live longer) and you can't have as many. Lots for you to consider!

I'm not a pro, just my 1 cent.

Good Luck! Exciting time for you I know!

Merry Christmas and God Bless to you and yours as well!

Bill D

WOW, I wasn't expecting the "no kits" discussion. Thank you so much. I never even thought of going any other way. Back when I started digging I called the somewhat local guy and asked what he had. He said he sells a kit and suggests that over anything due tot he savings and such.

He was very helpful, I mean very, and spent a lot of time on the phone with me trying to explain why the kit is constructed the way it is. I have young kids so I want to fish with them at this pond and I don't mind sunnies and blue gills but there has to be something else too. LMB would be great, especially big ones, maybe catfish, maybe even trout since my pond will be about 15' deep and spring fed. I will post what this guy has in his kits and we will go from there. I don't want to post the name of the supplier but its central PA and I can tell you there has been many people around here happy with what they got from this guy. Let me know what you think.

Put in what YOU want. Not what he suggests.

There are very few recipes in any recipe book that starts out with 'throw all the ingredients in at the same time and mix'

My biggest red flag is that stocking multiple predators at once creates a built in problem with balance, which predator is the dominant predator? How do you know?

Also, it seldom is wise to stock predators until the forage base is huge and DIVERSE. If it takes a year or 2 of patience to develops your forage then how can it be right to buy a 'kit' no matter how good intentioned the seller is, (unless it is a forage kit)

It is like when mixing paint, once you mix in the dark colors, it takes an enormous amount of light colored paint to back the color a shade lighter, once the dark pigment is in.

If you run out of forage it takes enormous effort to get it back in, or you have to nuke the pond and start over.

I found a very interesting flyer posted on a web page of a supplier in your state. (I'm not so interested in who your supplier is but found the information interesting/controversial) From the pictures of their 'up to date fleet' of trucks the flyer looks like it needs an update. But there are some interesting concepts introduced in the flyer that we might all learn from.

I like the idea of using a bale of hay to act as a daphnia feeding station and hadn't read about that on this forum.

Their theory on crayfish was very unusual to read as well.

There are also discussions on this forum on how to build a spawning bed. This PDF file below offers a unique entry for sale, a spawning 'disk' which I found interesting. This might be a good way to repurpose flying saucer sleds or even old satellite dishes!!

Zett booklet Info
lots of info here...

The link reads like they are the only ones who know anything, and every other "fish place" is polluted or something else not good. The package they recommend goes against any recommendation I have seen posted by the more knowledgeable people on this forum. Reading their pamphlet gives me bad feelings about them.

As with most things, there are a lot of differing opinions on how to stock a pond. I found this recommendation from a fish farm in the North East interesting...

(Largemouth)Bass should be stocked at a rate of 75-100 fish per acre along with a forage fish. We recommend fathead minnows and/or crayfish. The minnows should be stocked at a rate of no less than 1000 per acre and a rate of 5000-10,000 per acre is ideal. The crayfish should be stocked at a rate of at least 400-500 per acre. These numbers should be increased if there is already an established bass population in the pond. With the exception of black crappie we do not recommend sunfish, such as bluegill, as a forage fish in northern regions. Because of the short growing season for bass in the north they are not able to keep up with much more prolific sunfish. Eventually the sunfish will take over the pond without intense management. Crappie do not spawn as prolifically as other sunfish so therefore it's easier for the bass to keep their numbers in check. Yellow perch may be another option as a second forage fish although they have been known to take over a pond now and again. Crappies and/or perch are a great option if you enjoy ice fishing.

So below is what is in the kit. I think it would be neat to have all these different fish but should I not buy them all at once? Should the smaller ones be bought now? Does anyone have a suggestion to start?

I posted this yesterday but it didn't make it on the page. If it was removed due to some violation, I am sorry.

(for 1/4 to 1 acre pond)
•Daphnia Culture
•100 Crayfish
•25 Clams
•250 Trapdoor Snails
•100 Tadpoles
•1000 Minnows
•500 Blue Gills
•50 Breeder Shiners
•100 Channel Catfish
•100 Crappies
•100 Yellow Perch
•100 Large Mouth Bass
•5 Algae Eaters

total price $879.50

Special price $735.00

I have 7-8 foot of water now.... Is there something I could be stocking now or is the water too cold to start yet?

If there was a magic kit that produced good results, everyone would be using it. Ponds are complex ecosystems that require sequential steps to reach a desirable mature state in just a few years, and once mature, they require maintenance. Fortunately, this maintenance includes fishing and removing some of these fish! Get your stocking advice from someone that does not sell the stockers. While there are many great fish farms, why not avoid the conflict of interest?

It would be easier to start a stocking plan fit to your specific needs, than to criticize all that is/might be wrong with that list.

The fish growing booklet has many opinions and the authors are entitled to their opinions. These are some of my opinions. Note that the above "Kit" is suggested for any pond 0.25 to 1 acre pg6. Wrong IMO on several topics. As I again read through this familiar and updated booklet, there continue to be IMO MANY biased statements used to sell their products. Not enough time now to cover all of them.

All fish farms realize carrying capacity and to recommend the same "Kit" for a 0.2 ac and a 1 ac pond is pure salesmanship. Be very wary of someone promoting this philosophy.
Firstly - impounded water has a natural carrying capacity that determines how many pounds of fish it will grow/support, very similar to the practices of agriculture or your garden. The capacity can be increased several ways - by technical correct defination of eutrophication "polluting" it or eutrophication as they stated in the above Fish Farm Booklet pg36- manually adding extra copper sulfate and harsh chemicals. Technical definition of eutrophication includes mainly the addition of nutrients that are also present in fish food. Zetts booklet highly promotes nutrient fertlizer. They distort the true meaning of eutrophication.

Secondly- On one page they say southern bream (pg4) which technically includes bluegill are not beneficial in northern ponds and then later they strongly promote their BG in the "Kit". What does this tell you?

Thirdly - There are several "holes" in their philopsophy (pg6) of yearly adding their Daphnia culture which is similar to adding fatheads each year to an established fish community - not productive. This philosophy largely benefits the seller and not the buyer. Basic animal or wildlife management is - provide the proper habitat the the community will reproduce, thrive and not need annual supplimental stocking unless the goal or plan requires it. Similar to using Bg as forage. If your pond does not maintain perpetual populations or fatheads or Daphnia then something is missing from the habitat or from your plan if your goal is to always have or need fatheads or Daphnia. If there is a ecological balance in your pond, your fish community does not always need short term additions of fatheads or Daphnia for the sportfish to thrive. Other items can serve the purpose of fatheads or Daphnia. Maybe your pond is out of balance thus adequate forage is in short supply?

All ponds have a natural zooplankton community. The structure and species composition of the zooplankton community is largely governed by the predators and habitat i.e. fish - vegetation - chemistry. Their hay bale concept is weak. Daphnia and larger crustacean zooplankton do not feed on the straw-hay. Hay is an organic material similar to tree leaves that will decay and create a bacteria-protozoan culture. All ponds have myrids of organic materials in various stages of decay that create the conditions for bacteria - protozoa and ultimately "Daphnia" type foods. Bacteria are primarily decomposers while protozoans and zooplankton are primarily micro-particle filter feeders.

Fourthly - Trap door snails (pg 29) are and exotic species, an invasive species, and provide little if any benefit to a regular sport fish community. Trap door snails have many more disadvantages than benefits in a sport fish pond. IMO they are turning their invasive trapdoor lemons into lemonade that actually is doing overall harm by helping spread this exotic invasive nuisance snail species that the fish farm received in a shipment of fish. They also sell red swamp crayfish that are not allowed for sale in their own state of PA. PA does not allow them to sell crayfish to customers in PA.

Fiftly the booklet says people that write aquaculture books never raised fish for a living and sell stupid unnecessary dishonest equipment to people pg 37. They go on to say to have healthy fish they must be raised in soil bottom ponds. Wrong, wrong.

Lastly for today -Their spawning disks (pg50) are a good concept if the fish require a special substrate for spawning, especially when the pond is full of muck, sludge, or unconsolidated silt and the pond lacks a firm bottom or sand, gravel for fish spawning. An economical kids snow saucer or bottom of a barrel filled with proper size sand, gravel, stone can serve the same purpose.

I could spend all day elaborating on the biased statements in the fish farm sales booklet. Be cautious of what you blindly believe. Get second opinions from proven facts.

I about choked when I read in their stocking kit that for a 1/4 acre pond they figure 100 catfish would be good!!! If that is really how they sell their fish kits they really should include a free gallon of rotenone (the agent of choice needed to kill everything in the pond and start over) This will be needed sooner or later once the 100 catfish take over everything else!!

There are tons of posts on PB about where catfish fit in the scheme of stocking but I would say the majority of the folks wish they could get them out or at least control them from being the apex predator.

To really know what in the stocking kit is helpful or not helpful you have to let us know if your goal is a BG heavy pond with the goal being large BG, or your goal is to grow large LMB. If so then you need to have think about the forage base for LMB and how to control LMB numbers.

Several on this forum are experimenting with SMB as the apex predator in a small pond and are finding advantages to SMB over LMB, but it appears that is not an option at your fish seller's web page.

If you truly have the luxury of having a pond that is a blank slate, please ask for your money back and explain that you want to stock your pond in stages.

Spend the next growing season doing forage, forage forage. I can't speak to daphnia or snails except to say that I have invasive ones in my pond and wish I didn't. The native snails will find their way to your pond in most cases and therefore many people source a small number or RES or pumpkinseeds to help keep the snails in check and to give variety in sunfish angling. The RES are not as prolific either so are a bit easier to manage (although harder for young people to catch).

Plan your forage base, FHM for sure with structure for them to survive in, GSH should be OK, search for other forage lines that won't survive if you stock them later (due to predators being in place) and get them in now. Research all the different types of shiners, mudminnows, darters, dace, lake chubsuckers, etc.

Native crayfish are OK, but they can explode and erase any vegetation that might be establishing and without predators you then might have a barren, muddy pond till predators go in (down the road). Crayfish might be OK to stock later.

We aren't trying to be critical, we are thrilled that you have the opportunity to do it in steps and want you to be one of the happy ones rather the ones that come and say I have too many of this or not enough of that, or too many stunted fish and really all we can do is tell you to nuke and start over...

Hey guys, thanks again. I never gave these people a dime! I don't need to ask for my money back. I also have a pond with ZERO fish in it. It's a little over 1/2 full at 90 inches. Some frogs have found their way in. I have seen a few crayfish. Even had a duck, eagle and herring floating or flying around. I am slowly increasing about 1/8" per day. If it rains I increase about double the rain fall unless it's a downpour, then I get lots. I got like 7 inches from the last inch.

I want a place to picnic, clean water to swim..... Maybe something always biting for all levels of anglers. So BG's or sunnies are needed for little kids that come. I would like some other bigger fish. Maybe trout, cat fish, LMB..... I don't know much about crappie or perch.

I have ZERO structure. I was told to throw Christmas trees in spots to help with that.

I can't thank you guys enough for the help. Is there a good book that would elimate a few of my stupid questions?

Your questions are never stupid. Pond management is a learning curve and we are here to help you learn. Ask all questions you want. Someone here will provide good answers. One of my tasks is to make sure the answers are reasonable, fair, and knowlegable, etc.. If you want fish structure, read through the lengthy thread in the Common Q&A Archives. It has lots of homemade structure ideas.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

The fish farm discussed used to grow and sell smallmouth but finally discovered they are not easy to consistently produce on a commercial basis. They often had to go to other hatcheries for their smallmouth. Almost all fish farms buy some of their stocker fish esp catfish, HSB, grass carp, HBG, often RES and some other species. Hicklings Fish Farm in NY does sell high quality smallmouth.

Good book? Check the archive threads for previous common pond questions. I may put your/this thread in the archives as a topic for new pond info. The discussion of fish stocking kits is esp informative for new pond people.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1
Read about hybrid bluegill(HBG) in the archive thread.

IT may be too late in the season to use traps but a minnow trap or crayfish trap thrown in now, or in early spring at ice out might be an important step.

First, many found out that the pond that was supposedly devoid of fish, somehow got stocked. Whether it was the eagle that flew over, the heron that swallowed the spawning fish and pooped out the eggs before taking off, or the helpful neighbors who saw water and thought it might be good to add something to it, or some other way, all your plans change in a mighty big fashion when you find out that there is something in your pond already.

IF the only thing you catch is crayfish, fine. If next spring you also catch other fish then we can identify them and start over from there.

In the meantime you can probably plan for sources of forage fish and start with them at ice out. Plan for building structure (research structure that is more snagproof since you want to swim and fish in it)

Also there is a little friction between those who want a crystal clear swimming pond vs those who want a 'fertile' pond full of microscopic critters, occasionaly helpful blooms, visibility of only 20" or so to prevent unwanted weeds, etc. There probably is a happy medium but the food chain doesn't thrive as well in crystal clear water.

Knowing what kind of crayfish are in your pond would be helpful too.

Whether you stock it now or in March is immaterial at this point; better to wait IMO. The fish won't make any growth or reproduction in the next three months anyway, and will be subject to predators and disease in the meantime due to cold stress.

IMO you have a good start on establishing goals. IMHO I would work with the pros here to firm it up and convert that to a stocking plan. Once I had a stocking plan, I would then search the archives and ask questions to get a plan for establishing a habitat/cover plan that will support your stocking plan. You could be working on creating habitat/cover between now and spring so you'll be ready to start stocking your forage. Some of that activity also might be easier to do now while the pond is only partially filled.

A couple of questions that might help narrow the playing field...

1) Are you planning to feed your fish pellets?
2) Will you be willing to harvest fish as required to help maintain balance?

Just my 1 cent...

Bill D

Bill D and others.... This help is awesome! Your questions are easy I think. I would feed if I had to and I would be more than willing harvest some fish.

Here is a concern I have about building structure now. I'm only 1/2 full. Could any structure I throw in affect the ability to later seal the pond if needed? I do not think I have a bad leak but I don't know. It has been going up a little each day.

Also, do I have to plan a stocking plan with some plants around the edges? Do they go hand in hand or are the plants mostly for decoration?

What about the general microscopic life? It has been suggested that I get 55 gallons from a neighboring pond to put in mine to start the little bugs.

Plants in the pond consume nutrients and usually compete with filamentous string algae(FA). Generally, the more higher plants that are present the less FA persent. Without competition for space and nutrients FA thrives on all available nutrients that are present. Newly exposed dirt almost always has nutrients leaching out of it to grow weeds-plants. The more the dirt is compacted the harder it is for many plants to get rooted.

Submerged plants provide the most competition for FA whereas the emergent shoreline plants stabilize the shoreline to reduce erosion and compete with other nature's introduced plants that can be a nuisance if not managed. Some common good emergent plants are water iris, spike rush, pickeral plant, lizard tail, dwarf cattail, some Juncus. IMO the best deeper water plants are hardy hybrid water lilies in the dwarf, small, and medium size ranges. I don't recommend water lilies in the large category that can grow 7-9ft deep unless it is a lake.
This from the Archives will get you started learning about pond plants. There is also a thread in the Archives about water lilies.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=440475#Post440475

Introducing water from an established pond can be beneficial providing the donor pond does not have various algae issues esp in mid-summer. Ponds do develop a natural micro-organism community - Nature is amazing about introducing zooplankton. Try not to introduce problems that can develop later. A general good time to move water is when the donor pond is clear. I always check the algae and zooplankton community for species composition before adding any water to a pond. Otherwise it is a "crap shoot". A receiving pond with out fish does not need very much water introduced (1-5gal). The "bugs grow quickly even in colder water. If the donor pond regularly received chemical treatments/herbicides often the beneficial micro-organism community is compromised. Fish species present will generally determine the structure of the zooplankton community. Certain fish species such as small BG, crappie, and lots of abundant minnows heavily graze on larger zooplankton changing the species present, especially consuming the larger species that are selectively grazed. Ponds with dense or significant amounts of cover provide refuge & habitat for zooplankton. The ponds that have just LMB is where I get the best water and zooplankton. These ponds are generally quite clear. Bass >4"-5" long rarely eat larger zooplankton (Daphnia - Diaptomus) thus those ponds have lots of good large zooplankton species. Note that the species composition of zooplankton will often be different seasonally.


Structure does interfere with dirt work in a pond.

Since you are still concerned about leaks, you way want to consider initially placing more portable structure/habitat such as pallets, that can easily be removed if required. Some folks even attach pallets to shore by ropes so they can reposition or remove them. The archives show many examples of homemade and store bought structure that could be removed from the pond relatively easily if required.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

I planted some hybrid lily plants while my pond was filling, a lot easier than when it is full! Same goes for a dock.

Take your time stocking, but for the most part establishing the forage base first and giving it time to "settle" is a good idea. While you are feeling this first year or so out, you will get an idea where to put additional structure. It is also a good time to try planting desirable plants to get a leg up on the undesirable ones. The sooner you can get desirable plants established, the better! They will then "steal" from the not so pleasant plants to keep them under control.

So if I were you, I would stock fathead minnows any time the water is cold, but not frozen of course. These little guys will reproduce like crazy at the earliest opportunity. Once you can walk across their backs, it is time to *slowly* introduce predator fish. I like the idea of ladder-stocking myself, as it gives your pond a chance to catch up and settle in to the changes.

My big mistake was putting in walleye, black crappie, and yellow perch at the same time and size. The walleye could only eat fatheads, and starved soon enough. The YP and BCP out-competed them and helped to make the FHM go extinct. If I established FHM first, then the YP a year later, waited a year or two for the perch to spawn once or twice, then introduced the WE, I likely would have had much better balance than I do now and would be fishing for some amazing WE. Instead I am targeting massive perch.

If planning on swimming, no bluegill or sunnys. They like to nibble/bite inconvenient locations on your person.

Few items.... I hit 8 feet deep this morning!

First question, when is the very earliest I can get fat head minnows in the water? How may should I purchase for 3/4 acre pond?

Second question, how would a pile of old tires all cabled together work for some underground structure? Could the minnows lay eggs on them like wood pallets? Seems like tires would be good to not get snagged on and good to swim around and easy to get out if I need to remove the for any reason if they are all cabled together in a ball or other weird shape.

I would wait to add the FHM whenever the ice melts in spring and before the water reaches 60F around the time FHM spawn (64F). How many to stock really depends of your needs for the FHM. In your 0.7ac, add more(8-12 lbs predator dependant) if the adults can be eaten and a lot fewer(2-3 lb) if you want them just for producing fry as later forage minnows. Adding too many FHM as breeders often results in an overabundance of fry that grow very slowly due to over crowding.

IMO bundled tires will not work as well as stacked pallets for FHM spawning. For pallets put some spacers for a 2" gap between each pallet which adds more surface space for spawning.

Does it matter if the pallets are in constant shade? I built a really big dock and could put them under there. You see I don't have much area in the pond where the sides aren't very steep and I'm 15' deep in most areas. There is room under the deck to put a few piles of pallets that come within a foot of the surface of the water.

If shade doesn't matter, I plan on having two pallet piles (spaced for more room), a good sized tire bundle chained together and possibly some bowling balls with PVC loops that mimic atoms in chemistry!

FYI I hit 100 inches deep Jan 2nd so that's a cool number. Also, all the above "structure" could easily be removed if something needed sealed in the future. I want to stay away from giant root balls or tree tops if I can incase they need removed.

Happy New Year Guys, I really appreciate all the help and suggestions

A couple of ideas on structure placed in deep water.

If you only have mostly deep water, you can make tall structure that comes within whatever distance you want of the surface. The deep part is not wasted as the fish will use it in the colder months when the pond is not stratified or all the time if aeriation is used.

Another option is add some floatation to the structure then anchor it at the proper depth using concrete blocks and appropriate rope length. Let it float up to the level you want it at.

I have to ask again, would it matter if the pallets for FHM were under the dock in constant shade? Sorry to be a pain but I am getting close to the level where these pallets need to go in.

On an other note, I wont have any accurate water level measurements for a while, the ice here pulled out my iron stake that I had a tape measure stuck to. I took a transit down and shot level and marked the posts holding up the dock now. If my transit was correct, I think finished height of the deepest part of the pond will be around 14'9". I was in a terrible hurry cause my lovely wife was only gonna hold the metal transit stick about 2 more seconds before stabbing me with it. It was minus 4 with the wind chill when we were down there.

Thanks in advance

IMO if you want to maximize your FHM population, the pallets would serve you better in the sun. My reasoning (right or wrong) is the water will warm faster in the sun in the spring and trigger the FHM spawn sooner than if the pallets are in the shade. Same goes for the fall. The water in the sun will cool more slowly than water in the shade and keep the spawn going longer. I also think the plankton will probably be more numerous in the sun to feed the newbie FHMs after they hatch. Also, IIRC, there is a minimum number of daylight hours required to induce FHM to spawn and I'm not sure how being under a dock would affect that.

Not a pro, just my 1 cent.