I will try to tell my tale. Bought a property in Lawrence Co, Indiana with some acreage for a retirement place. The house needed work and it had no pond. Both of those can be fixed. That area gets a good amount of rain/snow and there is a lovely wooded ravine begging for a dam. I asked around and found the consensus among pond owners that one gent was the master dam-builder in the area. We spoke and looked at the site. This is a very rural area and he'd played in that ravine as a kid as relatives are next door.. well, I'm practically in the clan now. He sounded much more knowledgeable than I, though as a mechanical engineer, I have some of the fundamentals. He described significant water flow events and the need to have a solid core, lots of freeboard, good overflow & spillway capability, a valved drain line under the dam with collars, and such. It sounded like he was on top of the game, so we shook hands.
I spent the entire summer logging that ravine, me and my chainsaw. They wanted all the trees down, above the waterline and below the dam. I dropped trees, cut them up and half-filled my barn to the roof. It will be about 1 acre and 14-15' deep by the dam.
Clearing out the draw
The last of Sept, he brought in his ace dozer man (70+ yrs old and lots of dams under his belt) and he ran a track hoe (excavator). They spent 2 weeks building the dam. They took out every stump and scraped down to solid rock. They declared the soapstone to be a good solid base that won't leak.
The sides are fairly steep, some is bare rock, some soil. They took soil from the ravine, and then had to go out to the sides of the dam to get more.
They put the 2" PVC drain line in when they started, along with collars on either side of the core. I couldn't say how thick the layers were they built the core with- and it appeared they compacted it with the dozer. The drain was fed by a 7' vertical section of pipe that had been drilled with small holes both inside a rock-filled barrel and to the top above the barrel.
You can see the drain arrangement standing in the bottom of the pond when the dam was almost done. And that is a lovely cherry tree I dropped and took out when they told me the roots would be under water.
Note there is no overflow pipe at this point. They said they would put that in with the track hoe, but then they blew a hydraulic cylinder on it. They said they would put the pipe in with the dozer. I wasn't there, so I don't know how they did it.
This is the dry side of the dam at full height, before the overflow went in.
Next time I saw it, it had rained 4" that weekend. There was 7'+ of water. That was scarey.
One weekend's rain in the pond.
I had some good email chats with Esshup and decided to stock fatheads and gold shiners and give them a year to do the fishy thing. I will put in bluegill, redears and LMB in a year.
I had fun building habitat up in what would be the shallows. I did PVC structures, slate nooks, pallets with rocks piled on top, etc.
So it filled gradually through to December. Before Christmas, it lacked about 3 1/2 feet to the overflow. It was going to snow and go cold. It froze over completely in one day- but then it got down to -14F that night.
Nice snow, the day before it froze over.
After Christmas, I got a call from a neighbor. It had rained hard again. "The overflow pipe is down in your field below the dam and there's a huge hole." Needless to say, I took a quick trip down to check on it. What I saw about made me cry.
50' long (12" dia) overflow pipe is 30' downstream
My pond man saw that two pallets were lodged in the hole in the dam. They'd gotten washed out from the top of the pond. (Should have attached the rocks or blocks so they wouldn't float) He declared the pallets blocked the overflow pipe, the water swirled around the entrance, and caused the pipe to come out.
Still water, but big hole in dam
Now as I see it, even if the pallets got to the pipe before it failed, it shouldn't make a pipe wash out. The water never got anywhere near the emergency spillway (far side of the dam in view above), you could tell from the leaves how far it got. It looks like the overflow pipe washed out pretty much as soon as water got flowing through it. There was a large water outflow, the newly sprouted rye grass, oats, and winter wheat were flattened but still rooted along most of the back side of the dam. There is a lot of dam soil downstream in the drainage and a large mound where it dumps into the creek.
There are no collars on the overflow. I theorize that they did not get any decent compaction around the pipe when they dug a channel for it and back-filled with the dozer.
So we need to have a serious discussion. I'm not the expert, but I really believe he's trying to shift blame for bad work by saying it's the pallets' fault.
What to do next? Very good question. Obviously, I welcome input from you all. I fear I do not respect his input quite as much. I know I need a good bit more soil to rebuild and I suspect we'll need to draw the water down a ways so they can get equipment in there. I am thinking I should offer to pay for several dump trucks of good clean (not rocky) clay soil. I suspect we should create some kind of collars for that pipe to prevent seepage along the outside. They didn't do anything on the entrance of the pipe. No concrete facing along the dam, they just broke the pipe along the angle of the dam so it was flush. With clean soil, can you get decent compaction with the bucket of a track hoe? I'm willing to fund and run a manual compactor if that's best. I kinda think he needs to fund their time rebuilding, but he may not agree.
Isn't that an interesting way to get into the world of pond management?
Im very sorry for what happen it sicks .im no professional im a rookie but thats why I decided to do my pond myself cause I trust nobody. So I bought my d6c cleared my 20 arces companies wanted 36000 to clear my stumps thats more than I payed for the land so I bought the dozer for 12000, in a year i. Cleared the land for about 3000 in fuel and broken parts on the dozer, got it cleared called some more companys about a pond they told me 10000 to 15000 I told them there to high so I decided to build it myself told my self if it fails I know who to blame me. I got about 4000 in fuel and dozer parts into it but shes full and holding water. But I didnt put no pipe in my dam decided that would be a weak spot im going to put a silfon system in stead but like I said im a rookie dont know if I did it the best way but I didnt have what u got and its full for about a month now so im hoping I will be ok . But it looks like its on them more than u tome sorry for ur luck.
They have anti-seep collars, and take a look at the siphon system. You may want to think about going that route to get the pipe out from being deep inside the dam. That will address the "proper compaction around the pipe" thing. You bring up a good point. If the water level showed that it didn't go over the emergency overflow, then why did the pipe wash out??
They have anti-seep collars, and take a look at the siphon system. You may want to think about going that route to get the pipe out from being deep inside the dam. That will address the "proper compaction around the pipe" thing. You bring up a good point. If the water level showed that it didn't go over the emergency overflow, then why did the pipe wash out??
I don't recall him saying he'd put collars on the overflow pipe. He said he was putting them on the drain pipe, the 2" line through the bottom. I was ok with that at the time because the overflow pipe would never really be under hydraulic pressure. (If the pipe keeps up and water level doesn't rise over the overflow to emergency spillway) It is at full pool level on the water side, and slopes down to surface level at the back/bottom of the dam. I believe soil compaction around the overflow is the primary fault, but would think that collars around the overflow would only help.
I studied that web site shortly after it occurred. A primary reason why I thought of collars. They seem to do it for exactly such a pipe routing.
The dam was built entirely of soil scraped out of the ravine and the fields to either side of the dam. They said they used the best soil for the core. There is some clay in the soil, but looking in the channel cut through the dam, there's a good bit of rock exposed. I know water will wash soil away and leave it looking rockier than it was really. Rocks have to make water seepage worse. I was trying to find ways where we can do it better and avoid scraping yet further away into my pastures.
The siphon system is intriguing. I don't know how my guy would react to that as it's much more complex than simply running 5 lengths of pipe. So far, I've been letting the expert do it as he sees fit. He knows much more than I do.
like yourself, I find it hard to believe that a pallet plugging the pipe would cause the pipe to wash out. The pallet didn't shut-off the flow to cause more pressure on the pipe. And if it did, that pressure situation would happen in an extreme rain event anyway. In regards to the pallet partially blocked the pipe, causing a swirling effect, I would say what about a trash guard's effect that may do the same. Would that have made it go? Or if the pipe was so touchy to erosion from a plugging situation, perhaps he should have installed something to safe guard himself as well as you.
Then you say he installed it with a dozer, compacting and all. Hmmmmm, don't sound good. Sure, some soils are very forgiving and easy to compact for ponds. And some heavy equipment operators are excellent in what they do. His equipment broke down, and he decided to install a different way. That was his choice.
It all don't sound right or good to me. However, I am not a professional dirt mover, just a common sense guy who does his own stuff out of necessity. Wish you the best in getting it straightened out.
DH, I think your best recourse would be to bite the bullet and get the pond guy to repair the breach before your whole dam is gone. I think you are probably right in your analysis but you can never prove it in court. You should ALWAYS have a written contract when dealing with a contractor of any type. Even if you did, the pallets would cast enough doubt on it to prove it in court. Remove everything from your pond that can float and if it happens again, your case is much better. Good luck!!
DNicholaus, I live in lawrence county also. I'm sorry for the loss of your dam, i know that Christmas rain raised my new pond 13 feet over night. Scared me. It sure looks like a overflow pipe collar problem, especially with the smooth pipe vs. the N12 pipe(got it at CPI). Looking at the hollar you have I might size up to a 18 inch pipe. The heavy rains can bring alot of water fast.
I'd visit the local NRCS office and get their recommendation on overflow pipe size which is calculated by watershed, type of soil, vegetation and black magic. They do the calcs and size it accordingly for a flood.
Just a few observations over here, and I don't intend to be critical but;
1)There doesn't appear to be an emergency spillway adjacent to the levy.
2)What kind of primary spillway did they install? doesn't appear to be a siphon system or drop pipe. Is it just a straight horizontal pipe without anti seep collars? looks like a substandard job from what I can see.
3) What kind of pipe did they use. Definitely not schedule 40. looks flimsy.
4) In some of the photos it appears as if there is a home just below the dam. Is that so?!?
FishnChips: I don't know about compacting soil around pipe either. Was hoping someone could opine on doing it with a dozer vs a track hoe vs getting a manual compactor and doing it by hand or some other option when we put pipe back in.
Thanks for the suggestion Esshup. There's an NRCS office in Bedford. I'll hit them up.
Gus: 1. There is an emerg spillway on the far side. 2. Pipe wasn't horizontal. It sloped from the wet side full pool level down to base of the dam on the back. There were no collars. Collars mandatory for such an install? It was simply a run of 5 connected straight pipes with minor bend at joints. 3. Couldn't tell you what spec pipe. Here's when it arrived. 4. The house is beyond the dam. It's well protected by earth/bedrock contours that would push water away. Guessing its 8' above the wide pasture below/inline with the dam you see the vehicles parked in. There's a drainage not in that shot that handles the normal flow. Old timers say that pasture has had water flowing in it a couple times.
This shot from up behind the house may give a different perspective. You can also see the dam dipping down a bit better in the green circle. The dam is mostly behind the trees on the right, but the view may be helpful.
I believe Esshup has mentioned a tamper that is good for small areas like around a pipe. I will tell how I did it, but its not the proper way. I used a backhoe to sprinkle light layers of dirt, then I took the opposite end of a spud bar and used it as a ram to manually tamp the dirt. Long process, doing each layer at a time. My pipe is not that deep, so I do not have a lot of pressure against it, about 3' of water. I do not have a leak yet, it has been in use for a year or so. If I had known about this forum before installing mine, I would have set it up as a siphon drain. Live and learn. I could have used the teeth on the bucket to act like a tamper, but just didn't want to take a chance of damaging the pipe. I don't see how a dozer could "tamp" around a pipe properly, but then again, I never run one, so perhaps I shouldn't be so judgmental.
Here's the pipe used- someone can comment on whether it is flimsy.
I talked with a guy this weekend who said he didn't like pipes through dams in that area as the soil tends to have too much sand in soils even considered high clay and it doesn't pack well. Makes one think more about bagging the current design and doing a siphon over the top. Might be simpler in the end to buy elbows and more pipe than dealing with multiple dump trucks of clay coming from a ways out.
In preparation for more rain to come this week, I drew down the pond close to a foot on Sat. By morning it was back up a few inches as snowmelt was running in. So I opened the drain line again Sun and dropped it more.. better to have extra space before it tries to flow through that hole in the dam. FYI, just dropping your water level a few inches creates huge cracks in 4" ice. Tis no longer floating, so down it goes.
And Esshup, I spoke with the local NRCS office about their input on overflow design. I got a lot of input about how overwhelmed the office is and they no longer come to any sites. They took my estimate off USGS topos that the 1 ac pond is draining 10 ac and the parcel location and sent the info to the Salem Tech Team. The response was that a 6" overflow pipe should be plenty. As I have (had ) a 12" that might make one feel better, but given that they used so little input, makes one wonder.
I've found that the NRCS offices (at least the ones near here) vary GREATLY in the amount of input and help that they will give a property owner that wants to build a pond. One county near here is great - they will come out, have equipment to take a 20' deep soil sample, etc. The next county over has no equipment, and you get about the same service that you got. And NO, they will not cross county lines - I tried years ago.
Unfortunately as you may have found out doing something for a long time doesn't mean you do it right or well.
Sure hope you get this fixed. Definitely a faux pas not putting in at least one collar. It doesn't give me much confidence in your contractor.
At least your pond holds water which is a good point. There are worse fixes. I know some folks up in southeast Indiana where the hollers leak like a sieve.
Unfortunately as you may have found out doing something for a long time doesn't mean you do it right or well.
Sure hope you get this fixed. Definitely a faux pas not putting in at least one collar. It doesn't give me much confidence in your contractor.
At least your pond holds water which is a good point. There are worse fixes. I know some folks up in southeast Indiana where the hollers leak like a sieve.
I have been doing some reading Cecil. The National Engineering Handbook on dams. I found it rather interesting that they don't recommend anti-seep collars any more except on the lowest risk dams. They prefer a filter diaphragm, which is really a packed bed of sand it seems. Here's a snippet.
628.4501 Anti-seep collars For many years, anti-seep collars were the standard design approach used to block the flow of water at the interface of the conduit and the backfill surrounding the conduit for all embankments designed by most design agencies. Based on knowledge gained during the period of intensive embankment construction by NRCS and other agencies in the 1960s through 1980s, the use of anti-seep collars was reconsidered. Beginning in the mid-1980s, anti-seep collars were eliminated in designs of major embankment projects because they were judged to be ineffective in preventing many types of failures observed. All of the major embankment design agencies, such as the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), Bureau of Reclamation, and NRCS, as well as private consultants, now specify filter diaphragms rather than anti-seep collars. Filter diaphragms have been recognized as superior to anti-seep collars as a seepage control measure. The NRCS still allows the use of anti-seep collars for seepage control along conduits for low hazard dams that are built according to criteria in Conservation Practice Standard (CPS) 378.
Perhaps all our dams fall into the lowest risk category. Not saying that I think an anti-seep collar wouldn't have helped or shouldn't go in for Round 2. They just found they can fail. I found their comment about failures upon quick filling too close to home.
Several NRCS embankments constructed in the 1960s and 1970s failed the first time the reservoirs filled following construction. The embankments that failed had anti-seep collars that were properly designed and installed, and the surrounding backfill was adequately compacted
Also been reading up on siphon piping systems. I am not getting why it would have prevented the failure my dam experienced. The pipe still goes through the dam at roughly full pool levels. I originally thought it went up and over the top of the dam so you wouldn't have the issue of water seepage along the pipe, through the soil. If the overflow pipe still must be buried in a siphon system, why would it be more resistant to washing soil out and breaching the dam?
Water pressure increases by .5 psi for every foot of depth. More pressure = more force pushing it through the dam. If there was a little seepage along the length of the pipe going through the bottom of the dam, more psi = faster flow, which will cause a washout quicker.
Here's something that NRCS published in 2011, that still has anti-seep collars although they say what you are describing is a viable alternative. I'd really like to hear Mike Otto's thoughts on this.
Thanks for providing the link to 378. I intended to read that. It's a more concise guide for us small BOW folk.
Seepage along pipes extending through the embankment shall be controlled by use of a drainage diaphragm, unless it is determined that anti-seep collars will adequately serve the purpose.
This seems to say the diaphragm is preferred unless you can prove collars are adequate, but doesn't ever say how you determine that. I don't think that contradicts the big Handbook.
As my dam is >15' and pipe is >8"dia, it would indicate I needed collars. And since the pipe is 50' long and max spacing is 25'/min is 10', one could surmise I need 1-3 of them. Considering my history, at least 2 would seem prudent.
I get your point about increasing pressure with depth. I am a Mechanical Engineer whose thing is fluid flow. But the trajectory through the dam of my pipe is very similar to that of a siphon. Starts at full pool level, slopes down slightly as it goes through dam about 2' below top, then it bent down at joints and headed for the back / bottom of the dam. Whereas a siphon comes out of the back of the dam higher, mine came out near the bottom. But for the first several feet, the path is quite similar and that has to be where hydraulic pressure is key. So I am unclear how a siphon routing is much less prone to such a breach from hydraulic fracture.
Going back to your original post's details, I still think a lot of the failure was that the pipe was not compacted properly(or possibly the wrong soil), not that it failed because of what style of drain you used. However, because you need to install it again, I would highly consider the siphon drain because it takes the poor quality water out of the pond.
Scott, are you thinking the angle of the pipe would help water increase it's velocity once it started following along the pipe versus a standpipe situation? I would think that could make a big difference once a leak started.
O.K. So, they just put a pipe thru the dam at an angle, and didn't have it gently sloping with a standpipe in the pond?
Yessir. No standpipe. A single 50' length you see in the photo. It started out "gently sloping" on the wet side, and then angled down more. --\__ ..kinda like that, but on an angle, more gently bending and such. The exit end would have been roughly 15' below the entry end which defines full pool.
Also there was no trash guard. I'm pondering that wisdom of requesting that be added. This is a wooded ravine.. junk will always be coming through.. His saying the pallets blocked the pipe and caused the failure just makes no sense.. and if it were that big a deal, why not design to guard against it?
Going back to your original post's details, I still think a lot of the failure was that the pipe was not compacted properly(or possibly the wrong soil), not that it failed because of what style of drain you used. However, because you need to install it again, I would highly consider the siphon drain because it takes the poor quality water out of the pond.
I get the point of taking out bottom water for a siphon. somewhere I got the impression it might have had a different outcome wrt the breach, but I am not grasping the logic on that aspect. Everything I've read and heard here points to poor compaction around that pipe (and possibly soil too sandy also) and no anti-seep collars. I think I'm on your page.
I need to have a big chat with my man. Can he put in a pipe with proper compaction? He'd have to admit the original was inadequate. He normally uses the track hoe. Can that do the job? Jamming the bucket alongside the pipe? I'm fine with buying more pipe and elbows to put in a siphon.. if it doesn't cause grief with him. It'd still need compaction and collars... the bigger challenge to get right imo.
This may be one of those situations where this guy has used this particular method numerous times and had no problem. You might have had the imperfect situation where the pond filled too rapidly for the soil to seal properly around the pipe. Had the pond filled slowly over time with rains and time in between, the pipe and dam might have been fine.
Sometimes corners can be cut and 90% of the time it works. You might have just been the unlucky 10%.
This is of no help solving your situation, but sometimes this is just the way things works out.
Hopefully you and the contractor can come to an arrangement that both of you can live with and get the thing fixed where it will not happen again.
The worrisome thing to me is the contractor trying to blame an obstruction of the pipe as the cause for failure. That is exactly the reason the emergency overflow is there. For when flow is too great or an obstruction covers the opening so the pipe cannot handle all the water. Should have not been anything taking out the pipe. Now if the emergency overflow had washed out from so much water going over it on a newly established dam, that might be understandable. But for the pipe to go without any water going over the emergency, that should not have happened.
Scott, are you thinking the angle of the pipe would help water increase it's velocity once it started following along the pipe versus a standpipe situation? I would think that could make a big difference once a leak started.
No just the opposite. Well, sort of. I think a standpipe helps pack the water into the horizontal pipe by the large vertical fall before going horizontal. A standpipe can also have a sort of collar on it so it takes water from the bottom of the pond..... The collar is above the top of the highest water level, and extends down to near the bottom of the pond where the horizontal pipe goes thru the dam. The area of the gap between the collar and the pipe is equal to or larger than the drain pipe. The inner stand pipe sets the desired water level of the pond. If the water in the pond is higher than that, then the water that goes into the overflow pipe comes from near the bottom of the pond, or at least the level of where the pipe goes thru the dam.
With the way the OP had the pipe thru the dam, the pipe had to be completely covered with water before it would act as a siphon. Without an anti-vortex device, it most likely wasn't as effecient as it could have been.
Interesting read on the alternative to a collar. Never knew that.
Believe it or not I got rid of a drain pipe in my dike years ago. My contractor skipped a collar and I had a leak around the pipe.
I have a stone lined overflow (same as emergency overflow) solely for my overflow, which feeds into a concrete opening with a pipe that is close to the surface of the ground that dumps into a highway ditch. I did have a problem with water coming out of the dike near the pipe, but it was five star moles boring about 3 feet below the surface of the dike from the emergency flow parallel to the surface all the way to the ditch. A concrete collar down below their boring took care of that.
Scott, are you thinking the angle of the pipe would help water increase it's velocity once it started following along the pipe versus a standpipe situation? I would think that could make a big difference once a leak started.
No just the opposite. Well, sort of. I think a standpipe helps pack the water into the horizontal pipe by the large vertical fall before going horizontal. A standpipe can also have a sort of collar on it so it takes water from the bottom of the pond..... The collar is above the top of the highest water level, and extends down to near the bottom of the pond where the horizontal pipe goes thru the dam. The area of the gap between the collar and the pipe is equal to or larger than the drain pipe. The inner stand pipe sets the desired water level of the pond. If the water in the pond is higher than that, then the water that goes into the overflow pipe comes from near the bottom of the pond, or at least the level of where the pipe goes thru the dam.
With the way the OP had the pipe thru the dam, the pipe had to be completely covered with water before it would act as a siphon. Without an anti-vortex device, it most likely wasn't as effecient as it could have been.
Ok. I see what you are getting at. The two of us are actually talking about different things. You are talking about the pressure inside the pipe, and getting the maximum flow thru the pipe. My reference was to a leak following the outside surface of the pipe, and what would cause a leak in that area and why it might deteriorate so quickly once it started.
I don't think the problem in this case was from the pipe size being to small or not having maximum flow thru the pipe. The water level never rose enough to get close to his spillway to indicate this. Perhaps a vortex around the pipe might have washed away the dirt within it's vicinity before it could rise to his spillway level. Possibly a vortex was caused by not having a standpipe or by the pallet stuck at the pipe's opening, can't rule that out. BUT, would that vortex have kept eating away at that soil around the pipe 5, 10, or 15 feet down the length of the pipe? Once you get outside the vortex's range, the dirt should have been sufficiently packed around the pipe to prevent a leak.
edit: I will also add a simple farmer's common sense approach and question to this. If the pallet got stuck at the pipe, blocking it's flow capacity and creating a vortex, wouldn't that vortex be smaller than when/if the pipe would be fully open and flowing???
FNC, I agree with you. I think the failure was due to water following along the outside of the pipe, and relatively quickly eating away the dirt. It's hard to determine exactly what happened, but I'd guess that the soil wasn't compacted properly around the pipe, water followed the outside of the pipe thru the dam and the water flow kept increasing.
Vortex or no vortex, the water should have stayed in the pond until it reached the emergency overflow and exited that way.
Bit of an update. Ice is off the pond finally. No fish kill, but it wasn't likely. Brand new water, 1-3" fish, no vegetation, plenty of depth. We got up to 5" thick ice, but I kept draining water and breaking up the ice every couple weeks, so snow never built up even with the 50-60" we got. I was very pleased with the color of water.
Visibility is 2-3' and a decent green tint I think. All the suspended clay seems to have settled out. IR thermo says 55F at surface.
Talked to the builder. They've agreed to come back and rebuild the dam when the soil is workable. They will put in two 4x4' anti-seep collars. They will use the track-hoe bucket to properly compact along the length of the pipe and the collars. They wouldn't admit putting the pipe in solely with the dozer was wrong, but they will do it different this time so I'll take that. They didn't want me to rent a mechanical tamper and get in their way. They'll let me tamp the tar out of the soil at the inlet. Weren't interested in a trash guard- said it would plug the pipe faster. I tried to talk them into even Tposts a foot or two out to keep big branches away. They are still claiming that a pallet blocked the 12" dia pipe inlet and some swirling water ate away surrounding soil.. but don't want an anti-vortex on inlet.. nobody in the county I've told their tale believes it.
Been feeding by hand a bit in the evening. They won't come feed at 2pm. They come up around 6pm and eat for 30-45 min. Using Purina Game Fish Chow.. pretty small pellets but they still have to peck it to bits. I enjoy just watching the lil rascals go at it. Already saw a frog in the pond, and plenty of surface bugs.
Quick update. I got a 3/4" rain Friday night with the water level very close to the breach hole in the dam. I had the 2" drain running the whole weekend and it didn't drop water level, but water never came up enough to flow out the breach. I want to avoid breach flow of course. I left the valve partially open as runoff keeps flowing in.
From Weds midnight to Friday, they are predicting 3" more. It has me concerned, so I am going to get a 100' roll of corrugated 4" pipe and put it thru the breach hole. I hope to have a temporary overflow to help the 2" drain. There is an earthen bridge across the breach as there was a good bit of freeboard designed in. Soil has dropped from the underside of that bridge and mounded up, so I am leery about hand digging a trench thru. Just trying to find more ways to unload water without cutting more soil away.
Anyone ever successfully do a siphon going 5-6' above water level with flexible pipe? I'll be doing this alone, so can't get too fancy but thinking about trying. You can't seal seams (on a T) well, so may cap the bottom end and try to fill it from the pond entry up on top of dam, then pull it down to water level and uncap back end.
I have the fabric sleeve left over from the french drain project, so thinking 10' of perforated pipe and sock over the last 12', tied off at the end.. should prevent fish intake.
We got another large rain Wed-Fri. This is Thurs after I lost more of the dam.
I put in 2x 6" and one 4" corrugated pipe to pull water out of the pond and not have it cutting the breach. Yes, you can get it going solo.. use a ladder and put the pipe thru the top rung on the downstream side, then fill and lift the inlet side to shove water down the chute (8-12x) and fill- put inlet in pond and go drop the exit end.
Then I shoveled soil over them to create a mini-dam at their high-point. Hopefully, they'll flow before water cuts out that new soil... and keep up. Due to rain again Mon/Tues
Was the last pic taken after or before the water was flowing thru those pipes?
In the past, I have seen members here put plastic sheeting down in there spillway overflow area to help keep the erosion down because of heavy rains that were coming before they could get grass growing. I think one of the secrets to get that to work is to get the plastic edge down under the water level and weight it so the water just don't go underneath it.
Last photo was after pond was drawn down a bit by running 3 corrugated pipes and the 2" drain over the weekend. The 3 pipes were in place and dirt piled on top of them at their high spot to hopefully flow water thru pipes and not the breach.
Only the deepest inlet 6" pipe was flowing when the shot was taken.. the water level had gone below the inlet on the other two. Before I mounded soil, I pulled them a little further and stuck their ends underwater again. After discussion with the other engineers at work today, we think the inlet level isn't as important to re-establishing flow as the high point for each pipe.
Not a bad idea to put plastic sheeting over that mini-dam to minimize erosion. Would make sense to tuck the leading edge down under the soil. All tips welcomed!
Yessir. The areas are the same. I'd think a 6" would/could flow more as the 4x3"dia pipes have double the wall surface, and especially with corrugated pipe, the friction losses are significant. Were you suggesting lotta little pipes be better?
The 2" drain was flowing more than the 6" corrugated, but that drain comes off the bottom of the pond under pressure. I didn't feel I ever got the 6" pipes into a solid siphon like the 4".. you can see the difference in how full the exit dia is and velocity coming out. The corrugated pipes all ran the same elevation drop. But they all rose above the water level going over the hump, so there was some kind of siphon. As everyone says, it all depends.
The 2" drain was put in with the pond. I went down with a 100' roll of 4". I saw it wasn't enough, as you can clearly see in the video. So I went to town and bought a roll of 6". It was coming down, then I heard they predicted rain again today and I spooked and went and bought another 6". In the absence of my properly installed 12" overflow, I do the best I can on my own.
News: The dam is back intact. It was a struggle to get them to do anything different, but they agreed to install two 4'x4' anti-seep collars and the whole pipe length plus around collars compacted with the bucket on the track hoe. The pipe inlet sticks out from the pond side now. Couldn't convince them to put a trash guard on it. "any blockage on the inlet would just make it gather trash rather than flow through and it will plug faster" Any suggestions on how I can build some protection around the inlet later are welcomed. Thought about just some Tposts a couple feet out in an arc.
Only about 3-4' of water left.. few fish remain. Most of my forage critters are gone. So now I need to decide how long to wait to restock forage fish. Wait until it fills and the pipe flows and stays? Wait a couple months of rains after that? You can understand how I'm a bit gun shy, but I hate to lose the growing season.
Outlet side
Pond side.
They moved the emergency spillway further to the right. It's far enough over now that a good portion of it is bedrock. Don't think they intend that to wash out. I threw grass seed on it anyway.
I thought the emergency spillway looked close as well. It's about a foot above, and around the corner a little where it starts. The profile does dip down into the pond and looks like it starts at full pool, doesn't it.
Yes, the S side slope does have some exposed bedrock. I don't walk along there as it's damp much of the time.
Any thoughts on when to restock forage fish? Not a huge deal to run back to Cinci, but having lost a bunch of the first batch, hate weighing the risk of further losses. Wouldn't want to put them into as little water as it has now, but it'll get 8' within a month I'd bet.
Agreed. FHM now, but I'd wait to see if it holds water before putting a lot of $$ into stocking the pond. The exposed rock bothers me, especially if it's "wet" all the time.
The official rainfall total last week was 1.6".. on Monday. Water is still flowing in slowly. But, how do you put appx 5' of water in there in a week? You can see the similar picture from a week ago up a few posts. Just amazing.
Since my dam builder refused to put on a trash rack, I built my own. Those are 6' Tposts sunk 3' in. I set them all so their top is 1" over the top of the pipe, in an arc 24" out from the inlet. Put mesh from 12" below full pool up to the top. There is more area below the mesh than pipe area, plus the sides are open for now. Even if mesh is totally clogged, water can still get out. I added the nylon rope for strength if there's a lot of thrust from water flow. May put in wire mesh later, but that's what I had on hand.
Planning another road trip to Jones Fish early Saturday morning. At their door when they open, get my shiners and fatheads, and drive while it's cool.
My builder says he wants 50% of the original dam price for the repair. Talked to two other contractors- both say the dam failure was not caused by my pallet that ended up in the breach. One suggested giving my builder 10% of what he asked and the other suggested 40%, just to be honorable and get him off my back.
Oh, and I dropped by Sprkplug's and enjoyed meeting him and seeing his lovely ponds. My first PB'er face-to-face.
Looks good! You might want to have the posts and mesh higher than that. If the pond water is higher than the fence, it won't do much good.
Now you see why we are concerned about the emergency overflow. Just think how much water would be there if you had 6" or 12" of rain in 24 hrs like what happened when Hurricane Ike came thru a few years ago??
Stocked FHM & GSH from Jones again. Moved every FHM from one bucket to the next to check em. I only tossed 10 or so that I wasn't sure of. Wasn't sure what was up with some with a reddish brown spot on top of their head. As Esshup said, they seem to do a good job keeping their lot clean. Next day, I had a few up and pecking on AQ4000. Lotta green in the water, so they should be happy.
There are tadpoles everywhere along the shore, and quite the chorus at night. Was a little surprised to see they are carnivorous or at least carrion eaters.
Tadpoles like GSH
About 18" left to full pool. Forage fish spawning grounds are under water if they get in the mood. Another inch of rain forecast for this week, so it'll be closer to gut-check time on the overflow.
Full pool. Fish starting to learn the 6pm feeding thing. My favorite cherry tree stump that I liked to stand on is under water though.
I hope this is semi-normal settling. But there were two cracks about 4-5' apart across the top of the dam. About same as 4'x4' anti-seep collars... Got a lil concerned, so I opened the drain and dumped about a foot of water to get it away from the overflow pipe. I know, I'm paranoid now.
That is odd that it cracked like that with as much rain as we have been getting. I'd say it's settling from the pipe install but I'D be prepared to add some dirt to that area soon. What kind of grass did you plant, looks like it's growing pretty good?
Yeah, rains have been good for new grass. It's mostly Ky31 fescue with some perennial rye in there. Over along the spillway, I put in a pound of orchard grass. I spread 80 lbs of starter fertilizer on the dam this weekend to give it a boost and get roots/rhyzomes going. Been hand broadcasting because I don't fancy dragging my spreader on that slope. Found a few areas that didn't get seed as they were bare.. so flung another bucket full of fescue. RuralKing had red clover under $2/lb, so got a sack of that.. got a chunk of bare ground high above the pond by the woods that the deer might like to browse. Too steep to mow, so clover seems good.
Back from a 4-day weekend tending the pond. We got 2.6" of rain between 2-8am this morning. Pond got to full pool and doing well. Was interesting going out at 3:30 checking on where all the water was going.. did have some soil washed out, not on the dam but bare areas from where the dozer skinned it.
So other than an evil red eye, what do folks think of this pumpkinseed/longear outta the creek? Looks awful colorful. It looked gravid to me. Bottom side was kinda swollen.
And does this guy count against the total biomass in the pond? He wasn't looking at the young fry at all, he was cruising for the feed pellets and would pop up and snarf them. I assume folks generally say to make soup out of it and don't leave it there?
That's a beautiful fish. Did you put it in your pond?
I have a big snapper in my pond too. It doesn't seem to bother anything. Does the same as yours. Goes along picking away at the feed. I caught it once. Haven't caught it since. Stays away when I'm fishing now.
Yes, I put the PS in the pond. Just loved the coloring.
Since my first stocking of FHM and GSH ended up in the creek running thru my land, I've been down there with a cast net having some fun and cooling off. If I can tell at the creek it's junk fish, I toss it back. I bring them up to the porch and if I can't ID, I dump them in this tray with water for photos and a closer look. Not many FHM, but I've gotten GSH up to 6" long. Not sure a warden would agree the GSH are mine, but I got a receipt... Doubt they are native to this creek.
I hand feed, so if Mr Snapper wants it, he's gotta run the risk of being seen. Couple times I've come up over the dam and I hear a big splash, which I assume is him bailing in. Definitely not the plop of the frogs. He's the apex predator in there now. I'll have to decide if he stays by next year when I stock the predator fish and biomass goes up.
I like having a few snappers in my pond. They're naturally a part of that ecosystem and I don't see where they're "eating all my fish" as everyone tells me. They're pretty cool in a prehistoric kinda way.
Unfortunately, sometimes when fishing for catfish we catch one and they've swallowed the hook, so we go ahead and shoot 'em. But if hooked in the mouth we can usually get the it out and let them go, although the process leaves us full of adrenaline and kinda shakey.
I'll bet that is an adrenaline rush. I have no problem with turtles. They clean up messes and I appreciate them. A big snapper is usually ancient. I've never seen anything that shows them as any kind of environment problem to a pond.
Yeah, they eat a few pellets but I doubt that a pond full of turtles could cost over $5 to $10 per year.
I used to be of the opinion that snapping turtles needed to be removed. After a ton of reading on the subject I am no longer of that opinion. I've probably got 10 or so snappers in the big pond and one that's a giant. I just consider them something else cool to look at.
I have the same sort of 'branch catcher' on my pond now that you added, minus the netting. It's probably overkill but I'd rather have those posts there to catch large branches and not need them rather than the opposite.
Has anyone else ever witnessed large snappers fighting in a pond? It is something to see. They went at it for at least twenty minutes. Looked like alligators out there. Seemed like one was always trying to roll and push the other one under water and keep it there, kind of like alligators. I would have thought breeding, but it was in the fall ( or perhaps they were?, I don't know their cycle).
I don't get more than one at a time in my pond of 1 acre on a regular basis. I thought perhaps they are territorial.
I saw that once in my pond, and suprisingly a few days later there was a dead snapper floating in the pond. I have no idea why it died. They both were in the 25# range size wise.
Well, it is time for an update. Thought I would put it in the original thread.
I stocked FHM and GSH a year ago after the dam was repaired. There are innumerable 1-5" fish in there now. I've fed them. There are frogs and tadpoles all over.
So now I believe it is time to stock the BG, RES, LMB. Did some work on the water this weekend to see where it's at. Bought titration kits and a pH meter because that's just the way I am.
There is 0 alkalinity in the pond. It's totally a runoff rain and groundwater runoff pond. I checked the pH .. it runs 6.7-6.9. I tested several spots around the pond. The inflow water was 6.2-6.4 in the mornings and up to 6.8ish in the evening. The main pond water was rather randomly going up and down during the day(no correlation vs morning, afternoon, evening), but with only a 0.2 range, I figured that's likely within instrument error. I measured the water coming out the overflow pipe and it was 6.9-7.2. So I take all that to mean that even with no alkalinity, it isn't varying greatly for now. The water is coming in more acidic, but by the time it exits, it's neutral.
I've pondered amending and with as much water is flowing through there, wonder how long it would last. Reckon a ton of crushed limestone should be easy to come by if necessary.
So the major question on my mind is will this water be ok to stock in?
A few photos from the weekend around the pond. Pond temps are coming along. In the shallows it ran 54 in the morning and 57 afternoons. Down 15' it is 50. Time to see what's going on.
Built a couple FHM hangouts. Had some old paneling that I cut into 8"x12" and ran a cord through. Tied them off across a couple shallow areaas. I figure they are due to start in soon.
Saw several square feet of what I think are toad eggs. An interesting curly-fry shaped strand. This stuff is right to the water's edge in 1/4" water and also down to maybe 4". Tis also downstream of the overflow but not as much.
I picked up a nice scale and had to play with that. It is rated for 7 kg +/- 1g. That's essentially 15 lb and down to 0.1 oz. It comes with a plastic bowl that is perfect to put in some water and zero it out. Had to play. These shots displaying in ounces as I knew they'd all be small.
I think an American Toad.
Looked like an adult FHM at 0.7 oz.
And this poor little guy couldn't even drum up 0.05 oz. But he must surely be pretty recent.
And from the overflow pool, a couple very nice refugees that went back to the pond.
So now I believe it is time to stock the BG, RES, LMB. Did some work on the water this weekend to see where it's at. Bought titration kits and a pH meter because that's just the way I am.
There is 0 alkalinity in the pond. It's totally a runoff rain and groundwater runoff pond. I checked the pH .. it runs 6.7-6.9. I tested several spots around the pond. The inflow water was 6.2-6.4 in the mornings and up to 6.8ish in the evening. The main pond water was rather randomly going up and down during the day(no correlation vs morning, afternoon, evening), but with only a 0.2 range, I figured that's likely within instrument error. I measured the water coming out the overflow pipe and it was 6.9-7.2. So I take all that to mean that even with no alkalinity, it isn't varying greatly for now. The water is coming in more acidic, but by the time it exits, it's neutral.
I have never seen a pond with 0 alkalinity. Lower pH suggests low alkalinity. Evidently 0 alkalinity ponds exist. I assume your test is accurate. If you have fish living in it, you can stock other fish. With such low alkalinity don't expect to see green water blooms. Ponds with low alkalinity you should feed pellets to get a prosperous fishery.
I used the Salifert KH/Alk titration kit that has good reviews. Maybe I should sample a few more spots. It changed color in .03 mL which puts it way down at the first increment- which they admit is the measurement error for this kit. Could be 10-20ppm as well, but it's low nonetheless. Tis why I checked pH over the course of a couple days to see if the advertised pH swings occurred.
I guess I'm open to the possibility the titration was done wrong or something. Maybe I'll go sample the year-round creek as well.
I've been feeding the forage fish. They certainly spawned prolifically last year. But putting in predators is a bigger step- wanted to confirm before proceeding.
The contractor a cpl miles away has a couple semi's worth of crushed limestone in his yard. Maybe I should see what he'd want for a few Gator's full. No way a big truck could get up to the pond.
So on the basis that forage fish seem happy, get the bigger fish in, but add limestone in the next month? That a reasonable plan given the evidence?
I just found this thread. If you hadn't updated it, I never would have seen it. I'm glad your dam is holding up well. I'm in the waiting process, as mine still needs 3-4' of water to reach the overflow pipe. You've got more rain, for sure, and more acres in your drainage area for pond size. I guess now I'll worry about my drain pipe, and if it will handle a big rain when full. I've got two of the collars on the pipe, and I watched the guys pack it with the track hoe, and a manual tamper. Hoping for the best. Our drought isn't helping. Just curious, when you go without rain for a while, if you ever do, does your water level drop much? We haven't had rain for a few weeks, and my water level has dropped 3". I keep hearing that's normal, but I worry. Good luck with your fish stocking, mine are going in early next week, even though I'm not at full pool. Jeff
If your level has dropped 3" over a few weeks I would not sweat that. We are not that far apart and I would consider that normal for this area.
My wife thinks our pond leaks because the seasonal creek behind the dam keeps water in it now where she recalls it used to go dry during very dry times. She quite probably may be right, but our level drops in this pond is comparable to our old pond an eighth mile away and comparable to other ponds and pits in the area, so I don't worry about it. We did run into gravel at the bottom of the pond that likely connects to this small stream bed gravel and it was very difficult getting clay packed back in over it because of wetness, so I suspect we do have some connection with this small stream. But like I said, our pond does not seem to drop any more than anyone else in the area.
If we get wind, we can get considerable water loss from evaporation.
My water has never been -3" since full pool except when I open the bottom drain line. In my part of the US, we can go a month or a bit more without rain. But there are so many "springs"- water just comes out of the rock layers in the ravine, that it even though I'm only capturing 10-12 acres, it flows a couple weeks after every rain. And the pond is mostly surrounded by 50-80' trees. No clay liner on the bottom- just solid bedrock. Dam cored down to bedrock.
Yes, that was a cute little salamander. He was in the pool the overflow dumps into. My daughter thought he was adooooorable and had to hold it and pet it. They are regulars. Oh, and the toad eggs have hatched. The ones in the pond and the ones I brought home in a bucket. (very understanding wife)
Stocked the BG, RES, LMB. They were ~3". The BG/RES ran 0.10-0.15 oz or so. The LMB, I dumped in 10 of them and got 1.85 oz. Have lotta pictures, but shan't bore you.
Put in a Gator full of crushed limestone. Very crushed- peppercorn size and smaller. The contractor was happy to let me shovel up stuff that had been spread off the pile. Can't get much more convenient than a mile away in the Gator. Flinging shovels full 30' out into the pond is good for the shoulders, but covered a good bit of the surface area. The pH the next day was up to 7.8-7.9. Still +/-0.1 over the day, so little swing. Rechecked alkalinity after limestone had been in a day. Still near zero at a couple spots around pond. Ran the calibration solution and it was spot on, so I think it's real. so a bit disappointing ALK isn't up. Give it a week and add another load of limestone if it hasn't come up any more? On the other hand, the pH is spot on, the water is green, and fish seem happy, so maybe very low alk isn't worth fighting. Thoughts?
Must say, the highlight of the weekend was day after stocking, I went and hand fed late morning just because I like to watch them feed. I saw a bass cruising (3-3.5" mind you) so I watched to see if he went for pellets. They are pellet trained. But he totally ignored pellets. (The feeding fish were 1-3"; the forage fish from last year and their progeny. The big 5" GSH don't come up usually.) Well, LMB was just under all the feeding fish.. he found one small enough I assume, made a quick dart and woo, I have a carnivore in the pond! A year of tending forage fish paid off.
Lime has to be really fine to affect the pH much but lime raises ph (at least in acidic water/soil). Our native soils are around 5.5 pH and we use ag lime to bring them up to the 6.5-7.0 range.
If you can get more of the limestone, you might want to dump some piles along the bank in shallow water. The fish like it and will nest in it.
I don't know what else lime does for the water but I think it is pretty hard to get too much of it. We have the opposite problem here (pH being low and needing to raise it) so can't help you much but I'm sure others will have better info.
Looks like things are coming along well. We also enjoy feeding and watching the fish.
) a 12" that might make one feel better, but given that they used so little input, makes one wonder.
