Caught some nice BG yesterday. This one is 9" and weighed 1lb5oz. Caught 1 that was bigger at 9.5" but got excited and forgot to take pic & weigh him. Also caught a 1 yr old HSB stocked @ 8". Weighed 2lb 11oz measured 17.5". Nothing like a good feeding program! Caught HSB on bottom w/ a worm.

Nice fish! Whaddya' know, pond management DOES work!

Good job! Looks like some BG made it through the Winter after all?

Looks like you need a bigger ruler! nice problem to have... hehe

Nice!

A 9inch BG almost a pound in a half??? Hmmmm..... I want your scale!!

RC

RC I have a digital scale & I weighed him twice thinking it was messed up. It weighed the same both times.

If we had a well fed 9.0" BG it has a standard weight of 0.62 lb or 9.92 ounces. If we had a standard weight BG that weighed 1 lb 5 oz it will be 11.27" long. A 1 lb 5oz a 9.0" BG would have a Wr (aka Rw or body condition) of 212. Really fat fish have Wr of 100-125 maybe even 130 for fish in exceptional cases such as full of eggs or a really fat fish after a large meal. The BG above does not look to be overly plump.

It might be a good idea to weigh a couple standard weight items with the digital scale to verify that it is correct. Here are some volumes of tap water to weigh to test the digital scale.
1 cup (236ml) of water should weigh 8.3 oz
2 cups of water = 16.6oz and
21 ounces (1 lb 5 oz bgill) will be 2.51 cups(594milliliters) of water
measure out 2.5 cups of water and it should weigh 1 lb 5 oz using your digital scale. We are interested in your test results.

Thanks Bill, I will give it a test & see what happens & let you know the results.

Just did the test & it all checks out. I may have looked at it wrong in my excitment. Now I am going to catch some tomorrow night and see. Caught a bunch of smaller 1's tonight.

Hey, it's an outstanding age 2-3 BG regardless! Definitely a brute of a Husker Gill!

Bill, really good information, but there is one variable missing from Wr charts that is obvious to me with CNBG, and that is width.
When our CNBG hit about 9-10 inches they begin to get wider and thicker. I have only seen a couple or so pure CNBG over 11 inches after more than 10 years observation.

How much do think this would change Wr charts if width was considered as well as length?

Calibration of scale data is interesting - never tried it with cups of water on digital scale. I just hang a gallon of tap water in a jug on my boga and 8 pounds is good enough for me. Being a geophysicist, I do know that density changes velocity of sound in fresh water vs. sea water, so I also assume mineralization changes weight?

Not nit picking - just interesting data.
Thanks for your interesting post.
George

To my way of thinking, if there were an allowance for width, there would be no reason to have a Wr chart in the first place. I use a Wr chart not as a calculator to estimate my fish's weight, but as a tool to show my fish's deviation from what would be considered a healthy average weight for the species in general.

There needs to be a variable in the formula in order to form a comparison...I think that's where width, expressed as weight most often, enters in.

If width is incorporated into the formula, then what shall we use as a variable? Density of flesh, or mass of internal organs?

If it becomes a case of plugging in the numbers, ALL the numbers, (X+Y=Z), then what constitutes the difference or discrepancy if no two fish of the same measurements don't weigh exactly the same?

Just some random, early morning thoughts.

Totally agree!
I don't even use Wr charts - I can easily tell a skinny fish from a fat fish..
My point is that length alone is not a major criteria for determining size of pure CNBG - northern strain BG appear to grow longer but not as wide?
G/

I don't have any experience with CNBG, although I hope to change that some day. But I hear what you're saying George, and as a matter of comparison, I have stated for years that I have doubts about using a Wr chart intended for BG, on a HBG. The hybrids typically feature a very heavy, (thick) body dynamic, and I believe using a chart intended for BG skews the results to be more favorable than what they may actually be.

Yeah Tony,I think you are right - comparisons between various BG types and hybrids are skewed.
IIRC, Theo Gallus at one time came up with a length/width ratio - I miss Theo!

I'm will go back to an old thread showing examples of wide bodied CNBG - our buddy FireIsHot will soon break CNBG 2 pounds.
I have heard that Overton does not select length characteristic for his CNBG brood stock.
Cheers
George

I'm in agreement with you on the subject of length, George. Taken by itself it just doesn't tell the whole story.

I've been eagerly following Al's progress (as well as your own), with the CNBG.....can't wait for photos of that two pounder!

Can anyone tell me how far north CNBG can prosper? I have a small pond would like to experiment with some. Only FHM in it now.

Kansas might be pushing it.... Let see what other have to say.

RC

I knew of some in southern Kentucky that winterkilled last year. I'm also aware of some populations in Tenn. that appear to be holding on.

It's not just a matter of survival, you want a BG that will flourish and perform well for your area. Southern fish may or may not survive, but will they perform as well as a northern fish that is better suited to the climate?

There are enough people here to create our own standard weights for CNBG and HBG. The standard weights for HBG are being collected by Sprkplug. However not enough people are participating.
Standard weights are available for white and black crappie,
LMB, SMB, and spotted bass
Striped bass, white bass, and hybrid striped bass
Northern pike, musky, and tiger musky
Walleye, sauger, and saugeye
paddle fish male and female
Stream and Lake rainbow trout

Why not CNBG and HBG???

Bill, problem is with what most folks from around here call CNBG are intergrades from Arkansas fish trucks.
There are only two sources that breed from select pure Florida CNBG brood stock that I know about in this part of the country - Tyler Fish Farm and Overton Fisheries.
George

I don't know what strain of CNBG they have in some of those left coast lakes, but they are absolutely stunning. And huge.

Shouldn't the intergrades look a bit different? I don't do fish trucks unless it was Rainman but I got my CNBG from Hopper Stevens here in Arkansas and they look pretty pure to me? Course I am no expert on pure and not pure...

JD if you catch another 9 inch BG let us know what you get on the scale. You got me wondering now. I feed pretty well and my pond is doing great and I have caught a lot of 9 inch BG and most are between 9 and 11 oz. So if you really do have 1.5 pound 9 inch BG I wanna know and so does the rest of the world what your doing my friend to get them

Curious minds want to know!!

RC

Tony, I betcha they are pure Florida CNBG since Californians were early pioneers in pure Florida LMB - much earlier than Texas introduction of Florida in the early 80's - Al will know more about Florida LMB than anyone I know.
G/

RC, would you post your best photo of your CNBG and compare to characteristcs of these pure Florida CNBG?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=385505#Post385505

Thanks,
George

George, here are a couple photos posted by BigBluegill.com member Ledhed. These fish came out of Lake Perris.

Definitely pure Florida CNBG - excellent characteristics!
Note length vs. width.
G/

We need some photos of those Richmond Mill Coppers for comparison. I know they're on here someplace.

Tony, you would get me in trouble - I won't touch that CNBG ID with a 10 ft pole..

snrub - I would give it a shot if I had a brood/forage pond to isolate the CNBG from natives, but I like to do stuff like that. If you purchase from Arkansas suppliers they are most likely intergrades so may be more tolerant to colder temps.
I have seen some brutes that are positively Arkansas intergrades - really nice fish!
G/

Well we certainly wouldn't want any trouble. How about some CNBG from North Carolina that didn't come from RM? Courtesy of BBG member Jeffrey Abney.

Here is my best. What do you think? Looks pretty close to what you have dont it?






Here is another one.

RC, compare to photos above - your call.
George

Strong CNBG characteristics - don't see pearl fin tipping.
I'll defer coloration to folks not color challenged!
G/

I have not seen the bars if you will on the above fish posted by spark. I don't have that on any of my fish. Other than that I think they are dang close to the same? Not sure if those bars mean anything or not? Like I said no expert here on pure or not pure?? What I can say is I do agree with you on the fish trucks some here can be iffy sometimes, and you better know what your getting. That's why I don't normally use them.

RC

RC, In my opinion "pure" is a relative term when used in context with a lepomid. At one time there was thought to exist two strains of coppernose in Florida alone, a northern variety located in the panhandle, as well as a more southern variety. Opinions differ as to the validity of that assessment, depending upon what you read, and who you choose to believe.

Factor in regional adaptations and things get more complicated still. THEN, allow for the possibility of genetic dilution due to the mixing of subspecies, whether orchestrated or naturally occurring, and it gets really crazy.

And in the end, coppers are usually thought to be a subspecies of northern strain bluegills in the first place.

Your fish look great to me....I suggest you keep doing what you're doing, enjoy the fruits of your labors, and don't get too hung up on pedigrees.

JMHO.

10" Northern Male BG caught in a local lake and bucket stocked in the pond.

I'm going to try to make it out to one of my ponds this weekend to catch , weigh and measure some gills. They have been aggressively eating the aquamax 600 pellets lately. One of the biggest caught recently was 9.5 inches and 16oz. There may be a few bigger that have been avoiding being caught the last few times I was targeting them.I wish I could stock a few coppers in there along with some Florida strain bass.

snrub, you are close enough to central Arkansas to get some fairly cheaply if you wanted to try. I would not expect them to survive the first winter in Kansas. They die in Arkansas when they get a film of ice for more than a couple days, and that is only because there are more Northern Bluegill genetics in them than a "Florida" strain. The coloring varies quite a bit in my opinion, on both strains.

Ok, thanks Rainman.

If they die in Arkansas with a film of ice, they probably would not make it here. Some winters are pretty mild with little ice, but last year like most of the USA was a doozy.

If I happen to be making a road trip down in Arkansas this fall, might pick up some to give it a try, but only if it turns out convenient.

I like the looks of them and just thought it would be neat to have some mixed in with my regular BG for variety. The sediment pond they could grow out without fear of being eaten till they got big enough to go in main pond.

George,

If the some of the bluegills from Arksansas suppliers are intergrades how likely is it the bluegills they truck up here in the north may also be intergrades?

Most of the bluegills up here come from Arkansas so...

It could explain why some of the bluegills stocked up here seem to stress more in the winter than the native fish.

Yes Cecil, it is my personal opinion that most, if not all Arkansas CNBG are intergrades.
A little history:

Bruce Condello got me interested in BG some 10 years ago!
I cull EVERY BG from main pond that do not meet Overton’s CNBG characteristics and transfer to small 1/4 acre pond.
I have caught some brute BGs from the “cull pond” that anyone would be proud – I just like the coloration and shape of the “pure” Floriida CNBG

12 years ago, I began examining all BG stock, knowing my young grandsons had bucket stocked some stunted native BG (from neighbor’s pond) into my previously stocked pure Florida CNBG pond, fingerlings supplied by Bob Waldrop, personally caught and transported from Florida. This was before Overton established his fish farm.

I could readily ID Waldrop’s CNBG from bucket stocked native BG.
As time went on I culled all offspring that I considered intergrades.

In the meantime, Overton acquired “pure” Florida CNBG directly from Florida and I began introducing his genetics to our brood stock.
I have also observed what I consider “pure” CNBG stocked in Lake Fairfield by Texas Parks and Wildlife.
I am extremely pleased with my present stock that I participated in naming “Overton Texas Strain” CNBG.

Best,
George

Another point to George's thought. Ark stockers brought in CNBG stock many years ago (at least 30 years)and over time have have adapted to Ark climate (become more cold tolerant). Don't underestimate local conditioning over time. Plus Ark had native BG which are in some cases mixed into the gene pool of CNBG moved (sold ) to the north. It really just depends.

Very interesting Eric.
Had a nice personal visit with Todd yesterday and he told me the same thing. One of his Arkansas associates heavily mix native BG with lesser CNBG traits to survive more cold northern conditions.
They just call them CNBG.
George

Funny you should mention that. They do call them that. I am going to get 100 of them when the truck comes to the local feed store next month and see how they do overwintering in the cage.

I have a couple hundred PS and some native BG in separate cages too, so I can compare mortality rates next Spring.

Ok guys, caught a nice 9.25" BG & it weighed 1lb5oz. My scale was right on with Bills method of checking the accuracy of the scale. Caught a cc that 2lb15oz so I know the scale was reading right.

My mom was out talking to me so I had her hold the scale cause I didn't know if I could've taken a selfie like that. So no, I don't wear pink gloves!

Keep in mind CNBG are native in the east up to southeastern NC. Sourcing them from there as opposed to FL would likely give a head start to one looking for cold tolerant CNBG.

A 9.25" BG that weighs 21 ozs would feature a Wr of 193%. I mean no disrespect JD, but that female gill in your photo just doesn't look like it has the stuff to pull off that kind of weight.

Are there any other photos of the fish, one that shows more detail as well as the entire length? Really curious!

I believe this to be very true! I have CNBG in North Arkansas and I have had freeze overs on my pond of about 1 inch for up to a week. Last year was one of them and I from what I can tell did not lose any CNBG as a matter of fact my BG are doing great this year. So I think some of them are a little stronger then we think....

RC

Or as stated on other posts they have a little North DNA in them maybe to make them a little stronger???

Ok, I took out 2 scales and caught some BG that were 8+" . The scale that I always use showed 1lb 5oz, sound familiar? So I weighed it on my other gill scale & it weighed .63lbs. Quite the difference & torque me off! So I did some weighing of known weights & it seems you have to let the scale 0 it self out instead me zeroing it out. So now that I have my scale figured out I will get some more accurate weights. Thanks for bearing with me!

Good detective work!

Nice job JD. Your fish are looking good and the scale probs. are sorted out. That 21 ounce BG will be yours soon!

Scott, if you think about it, ask the fish truck if their HBG utilize CNBG stock.

Will do!

Guys,

The driver might not know anything.

Agreed. His job is to return with an empty truck.

True, but as the saying goes, "no harm in asking". In my case, nothing hinges on the outcome either way. Just curious.

JD I knew something had to be up with that scale dude! I have an 11 inch CNBG that wasn't even 1.5 pounds!! Scales man they weigh to much when you don't want them to and and you want them to they don't weigh enough!!

RC