Caught this little guy tonight on a dropshot with a waxworm. This is one of this year's stockers, which were 3-4" when they went into a cage in April. This one was 6" and 3.42 ozs this evening, which puts his Wr at just over 130%. I liked his body dynamics, I think he shows promise. This boy came right off the fish truck.

That's a HBG without much GSF genetic traits visible? Wheres the yellow margin on the pelvic and anal fin?

Nice catch TJ..This is a HBG that I would classify as BG dominant. he will tend to favor the BG's rounded, plate type dynamics rather than the GSF more slender profile. It's been my experience that this type of HBG can sometimes exhibit a superb Wr.

As Sprkplug states hybrids don't always exhibit the traits of both parents equally. Many people think a hybrid is always exhibits 50 percent of each parent gene wise, which is not the case. There will be 50/50, 60/40, 40/60, etc. and so on.

Thanks guys that is valuable knowledge, still, I would have mistakeningly IDed that fish as a BRES rather than a HBG due to zero yellow fin coloration. Was the gape GSF large?

Wow sprk. How do you figure out the WR?

The mouth may have the gape of a GSF but it is hard for me to tell. The only other GSF characteristics I see are some coloring below the eye.

Yes, this fish had a larger gape than a BG. As far as the fin coloration goes, I have noticed that on this particular variation of HBG, the yellow/orange fin coloration becomes much more prominent during spawning, and to an extent, as the fish gets older.

Jwwann, relative weight, (Wr or RW), is determined by weighing and measuring your fish, then comparing it against a relative weight chart, in order to get some idea of the fish's condition.

This is my favorite Wr chart for Bluegill, as it lets me begin checking the condition of my fish at a smaller size. This one is courtesy of Bruce:



The length of the fish, in inches, is given in whole numbers along the left edge, while it's further divided into 1/8" increments along the top...My fish was 6" even, which works out to a standard weight of 2.56 ozs. In another example, a fish 8.5" long would have a standard weight of 8.22 ozs.. Once you have the weight of your fish, AND the standard weight from the chart, you divide the weight of your BG by the standard weight, and multiply by 100. That gives you the relative weight.

The only problem with this chart, is the fact it only goes to 10", which is a problem if you have larger BG. (Which, in my opinion, is an excellent problem to have) For larger BG, I use the chart from the July/Aug. issue of PondBoss, circa 2006. This was part of a three part article written by Bruce Condello, Bill Cody, and Cecil Baird on raising trophy male BG. It's what got me all excited about managing for big BG, and I think those back issues belong in every BG enthusiasts library.

Thanks Sprk

Here's a trio of gillcrackers (BRES) from our ponds:



Notice the lack of blue spotting on the body, and the missing red border around the larger, opercular tab.

Green Sunfish, showing the blue spots, and the smaller tab bordered with red.



So many variations......

That is a very pretty pure GSF. I've been collecting male GSF off their nests from the creek behind our hunting cabin. Trying to do what others are doing with BG, only with GSF. Growing all male GSF should lead to some dandy sized GSF.

See this for discussion and pics /traits of HBG including the 2 phases BG dominant and GSF dominant.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1341&Number=14459#Post14459

Tony, can't tell from these photos - is there a presence of any red/orange on the margins of the opercular flaps on these BRES - even a very faint one?

TJ, some of our BRES display a small red border, and some don't. There's a glare on this photo , so it's hard to tell on these fish....

Here's one that has it:

That is still super faint. I wish we collectively had experience comparing BRES with RBG hybrids...wonder if parentage has anything to do with what specific genes are passed along?

My WAG is that we are looking at BRES hybrids - Male BG and Female RES. My simple, non scientific and utterly uninformed reasoning leads me to this conclusion as the opercular tab has very little color, which may suggest female RES characteristics.

I follow you...I wonder if general body shape might help determine the bias. Specifically, I think RES have a more streamlined appearance, with a projected nose, compared with a BG and their taller shoulders, and more "blunt" nose. I see BG x RES hybrids both ways, but I never thought to try and correlate the red, or lack thereof, on the opercular flap. I have some photos of BRES, I'll look back through them.

Here's one of ours that shows red prominently. Notice that it is more streamlined also.....

Interesting, I see what you mean here. Much more pronounced margin and it's more streamlined than the other hybrid photos.

I would classify the fish in my last photo as a RES dominant, BG x RES hybrid, while the BG x RES in the other photos I posted appear BG dominant to me.

What I would like to understand better, is how much of a role, if any, the male parent has on deciding the visual bias on a hybrid. Can a MRES x FBG still display a BG dominant appearance?

Also, these hybrids are naturalized in our ponds....I don't have any idea what gen. they are, or even if they've backcrossed.

As far as I know there is no data on how specific alleles line up or pair in the DNA of lepomis. I have some very old gene pics of some but not sure they help much. This may help a little,

Organisms have thousands of genes, and in sexually reproducing organisms these genes generally assort independently of each other. This means that the inheritance of an allele for yellow or green pea color is unrelated to the inheritance of alleles for white or purple flowers. This phenomenon, known as "Mendel's second law" or the "Law of independent assortment", means that the alleles of different genes get shuffled between parents to form offspring with many different combinations. In addition some genes do not assort independently, demonstrating genetic linkage.

Often different genes can interact in a way that influences the same trait. In the Blue-eyed Mary (Omphalodes verna), for example, there exists a gene with alleles that determine the color of flowers: blue or magenta. Another gene, however, controls whether the flowers have color at all or are white. When a plant has two copies of this white allele, its flowers are white—regardless of whether the first gene has blue or magenta alleles. This interaction between genes is called epistasis, with the second gene epistatic to the first.

Many traits are not discrete features (e.g. purple or white flowers) but are instead continuous features (e.g. human height and skin color). These complex traits are products of many genes. The influence of these genes is mediated, to varying degrees, by the environment an organism has experienced. The degree to which an organism's genes contribute to a complex trait is called heritability. Measurement of the heritability of a trait is relative—in a more variable environment, the environment has a bigger influence on the total variation of the trait. For example, human height is a trait with complex causes. It has a heritability of 89% in the United States. In Nigeria, however, where people experience a more variable access to good nutrition and health care, height has a heritability of only 62%.

As you can see genetics is complicated and it is many fold more complicated in hybrids. There is very little info on hybrid genetics in lepomis so all we are doing is making very WAGs here.

I'm feeling a new found appreciation for those locales that tend to lump all Lepomids under the general term "Brim", or perhaps "Perch".

Now that I've had a shower and can think clearly, I realize that there are individuals here on the forum who will be unable to simply refer to all lepomids as perch.....poor devils, I was much the same way before ewest's wretchedly heartbreaking-but-undoubtedly-well-researched post finally made me realize the utter futility of trying to classify these fish with any hope of accuracy. So, in an effort to appease those who feel the need to differentiate the various types of Brim, I will make the following concessions.

Henceforth:

BG, all subspecies, to be referred to as "Regular Brim"
GSF, will be "Largemouth Brim"
HBG, will be known as "Improved Brim". "Magnum Brim" was a close second.
RES, shall assume the name "Gussied up Brim"
PS.... In an effort to avoid offending those with delicate sensibilities, I have deliberately avoided any references that might be be deemed socially unacceptable, or politically incorrect.....Instead I will simply go with "Confused Brim".

Sparky I tried to divide HBG into 2 types in the HBG pic thread. That simple combo attempt (some shaped like BG , some shaped like GSF) seemed to have merit but quickly delved into a big I don't know. In the process I learned just how little was known about lepomis hybrids. Dave Willis and I even made a few calls to the scientists who did some of the genetic research on BG , RES etc and hybrids -- they didn't have any answers either. Looks like we are all in the same boat.

Sparkie, I think your attempt at redefining Lepomis taxonomy is a noble effort. With many of the strains, your proposal has real merit. However, trying to bring a rigid, logical classification system to any group of individuals that contain a significant proportion of cyanellus genes is not likely to be successful, given the variable but always unfortunate phenotype which they ultimately produce.
Therefore, I humbly suggest the following changes:

GSF-Inferior Brim
HBG-Degenerated Brim

I admit to being perplexed as to why you consider PS to be potentially "socially unacceptable, or politically incorrect"; could they not be rather "Yankee Gussied Up Brim"?

Here's my all-time favorite photo...mostly because I took it.

This shows a bluegill on the top, a redear sunfish on the bottom, and a BG X RES hybrid that I raised in the middle.

In retrospect, I think the hybrid was a female.

...and yes, the guys are right....

hybrids can look like just about anything they feel like.

Yes hybrids are fun ?

Good one Yolk !!! --

Nice pic Bruce !! How about adding it in the sunfish archive ?

You're killin' me Yolk......cyanellus genes notwithstanding, the mere notion that a noble HBG could somehow be considered degenerate is, quite frankly...ridiculous. Were I one of the aforementioned persons equipped with delicate sensibilities, I would most likely be offended.

However, in an effort to appease everyone, including those individuals of questionable character, I am willing to withdraw my suggestion of "improved brim", and substitute "magnum brim" in its place. It seemed a bit pretentious last night, but having slept on it, I now think it's a perfect fit.

HBG = "MAGNUM brim"

Note the capitalization.....bold print might also be acceptable.


Ewest, thanks for your efforts....they are much appreciated, if just a little dis-heartening.

Bruce, I think the middle fish looks like a female also...which of course, only raises more questions.

I hope everyone can see what's going on here.

Every time I try to have a constructive, collegial interaction with a GSF proponent, despite my benign and earnest collaborative efforts, insults and invectives are immediately hurled about. Witness the above post, in which my suggestion is assailed as "ridiculous" and my characer as "questionable".

Upon further reflection, however, I realize that the designation of HBG as "degenerated" brim could possibly have struck too close to home, and therefore elicited a defensive response. The truth can hurt, after all. Since we are in an age of unprecedented attention to political correctness, I can see where use of the term "degenerated" might cause offense, and therefore, in the spirit of the conviviality for which this forum is known, I would like to replace my previous suggestion with what I feel to be a more neutral, descriptive, and ultimately accurate term:

HBG--CONTAMINATED Brim.

I think continued use of the capitals is appropriate as it does convey something of the danger associated with the exposure of one's personal body of water to these fish.

I don't see how even JHAP could argue with that.

Can we assume that ENHANCED Brim is not an option?

O
I would never dismiss out of hand ANY suggestion from Bill Cody. Come to think about it, the claims of superiority for ENHANCED Brim might fit in the same general category as those for other "ENHANCEMENT" products advertised so pervasively.

Bill, thank you for the excellent suggestion. It would appear that your efforts might yet bear fruit, as I too find myself in favor of "ENHANCED Brim", provided that capitalization remain mandatory. I am unsure of just what is meant by the vague and hauntingly bitter sounding diatribe regarding the word ENHANCEMENT, but I am willing to concede that others may well have endured disappointments that, while unknown to me, have caused them great frustration.

So in that light, perhaps the search for a suitable designation should continue.

"AUGMENTED Brim"

Sometimes you just have to know when it's time to wave the white flag, get off the 'net, and drink beer. Goodnite, all!

Always enjoyable Yolk.....I hope I get the chance to meet you one day soon.

I think the word should be changed to "briyim" to more accurately reflect its proper pronunciation.

Is that Bree-yim?

I think that it should be pronounced to rime with "cream" like the ol' Pirate and Braves first baseman Sid Bream...