Pond Boss
Posted By: lassig Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 12:18 PM
Didn't find a hunting topic for this up coming season so figured I would kick it off. Fresh home from Wyoming and a successful archery antelope hunt. Hunted at the 88 Ranch in Douglas, WY. Lots of antelope running around, great people, and good food. Who could ask for more. I had a very long 18 yard shot at the buck I shot. All that practice at 40 yards and didn't end up needing it. Well maybe next year on the elk hunt. Here is a pic of my goat.

Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 12:52 PM
Lassig, nice one. Archery ? I remember when I lived in NM. With the antelope, I could get out of the car and whistle, jump up and down waving my arms and they would stand just on the other side of the fence. BUTT, when the calendar said open day, they would be 300 yds out in open land and if u got out of the car, they would run another 200yds from u. lol How far did u have to crawl to get the short shot? smile

Tracy
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 05:26 PM
Didn't crawl at all, the hunt was over a water hole. So I was sitting on an elevated stand (platform on the side of a windmill) at a water hole and just waited for them to come to me.
Posted By: Flame Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 08:31 PM
Does antelope taste like deer? Never tried it.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 10:52 PM
Don't know I never had it either, I will let you know in an hour or two as antelope is whats for dinner. The folks in WY said it was better than venison but we will see.
Posted By: Shorty Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/06/15 11:26 PM
My grandmother used to say antelope was the best meat and worst meat she had ever eaten. My guess is that diet and and more importantly how well the meat was taken care after the kill plays a big role in palatabilty.

Nice buck. cool
Posted By: catmandoo Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
BUT, when the calendar said open day, they would be 300 yds out in open land and if u got out of the car, they would run another 200yds from u. lol

Tracy


I am convinced that our whitetail deer are the same. I figure they sneak in my mailbox to look at the weekly newspaper hunting/fishing sectíon. I also figure they have hijacked my broadband password so they csn pirate my internet connnection to know even more about when to go into deep hiding.

Right now they will barely move out of the way when I'm on my riding lawnmower.
Posted By: fishm_n Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 03:26 AM
Love goat meat! If done right and not spoiled goat mea meat is one of my favoritez. That said, beef and elk are still better day in and day out.
Posted By: wbuffetjr Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 10:23 AM
awesome man! Nice goat!!
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 05:40 PM
Very nice! Looking forward to hearing or rather, seeing your impressions of the meat.
I've heard mostly negative comments on antelope meat.
Like sage grouse, I've heard the meat is bitter. I've never tasted either. I'd guess a diet of sage might make the meat a little strong.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 08:18 PM
I don't remember much about when I ate Antelope...It must not have been impressive or nasty....lol

Nice work, Mark!
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 10:09 PM
It was very good, but backstraps usually are. They had more rain than normal this year and the antelope are in very good shape. That may have helped the taste. Have the first batch of Antelope jerky in the smoker with another batch to be done tomorrow.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/07/15 11:50 PM
lassig, great way to start a season long thread.

You showed that goat a lot of respect by prepping and eating what you took.
Posted By: airborne3118 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/08/15 08:53 AM
Well, I was hoping someone had started this thread again, I really enjoy seeing everyones game from around the country. This guy has been showing up most every morning ready for his picture shoot. Come October 1st that might be different. LOL.He is not the biggest compared to some but I will take him with bow if I get the chance. Have a great hunt all.

Attached picture PICT0216.JPG
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/08/15 11:48 AM
Thanks Al, I live mostly on the game and fish that I harvest.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/08/15 12:40 PM
I would probably starve on that diet. My fish have lockjaw and the deer are smarter than I am.
Posted By: Zep Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/08/15 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
My fish have lockjaw and the deer are smarter than I am.


Dave....who am i to give you advice, but my fish had lockjaw too until a friend started coming out on some recent Saturdays and he always catches fish in my pond on minnows and also hot-dogs. He catches bass, BG, crappie, tilapia, and catfish. I was shocked Saturday morning when the first fish he landed on a hot-dog was a bass.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/08/15 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: lassig
Didn't find a hunting topic for this up coming season so figured I would kick it off. Fresh home from Wyoming and a successful archery antelope hunt. Hunted at the 88 Ranch in Douglas, WY. Lots of antelope running around, great people, and good food. Who could ask for more. I had a very long 18 yard shot at the buck I shot. All that practice at 40 yards and didn't end up needing it. Well maybe next year on the elk hunt. Here is a pic of my goat.


Wow, you have accomplished something taking a speed goat with archery gear....Congrats!!!
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/13/15 07:03 PM
OK to keep this going and switching gears (from goats to geese and bow to shotgun). Hunted the chitown area the last two days after the cold front and really got into the canada geese. On Saturday 4 guys and 19 geese (1 short of a limit) and 4 guys today and 15 geese. Both days we should of limited out but still really good hunts to tune up for the upcoming Saskatchewan snow goose trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ7hq7xMIbc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-YTgja4Umc
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/14/15 01:26 AM
Good going!

We whacked a few geese that were in the alfalfa field behind Mom & Dad's place last Saturday morning. We would have gotten more if the big flock would have come in, but the timing was such that we couldn't pick up birds from the previous flock and they were spotted.

I found out that shotgun shell velocity increases 100% if you take the safety off before squeezing the trigger..... blush

Nice speed goat too! We take a couple coolers full of ice, and as soon as it's field dressed, we fill up the body cavity with ice. That cools them down fast, even in high 90°F temps. All the pronghorns I've shot were treated the same, and the meat was great.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/15/15 01:35 AM
I have local Canada geese that fly over twice a day. Tonight the first group had 12, the second group had 18 and the third had 7. I might have to take a couple one of these days.

Last night I saw a record number of hogs at my feeder. The group also had the most large hogs I have seen at one time. Very impressive.

My friends and I had a blast this weekend catching LMB and I even caught a 9.4# CC on a bass lure. After my Cajun friends prepared and seasoned the CC he ate pretty good along with 40 BC. smile

Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 09/15/15 11:39 AM
I saw my first flight of ducks on the pond yesterday. And I am planting the fall food plots now, with Ebon Rye, forage oats, awnless wheat, winter peas and new clover plot. And I am adding some soybean seed left over from the spring planting. The beans are a really strong attractant for one of the bow blinds. Approximately 15 acres in 1 to 4 acre plots, and hoping for some rain, just not the amount we had back in the spring. I watched 2 does with 3 fawns laying around enjoying the cooler temps. Yep, it does not get much better than a day like yesterday.

Tracy
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/13/15 01:39 AM
Double-lunged a medium doe at 15 yds this evening. Went 100 lbs on-the-button field dressed. Should be good eating. Beautiful evening to stand in a tree. This particular stand is one that I built 25 years ago using angle steel and pressure treated 2-by lumber as the deck. It only measures about 14" by 24" and has lag bolts as pegs to get up in the stand, but it does the job. Life is good!
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/13/15 02:01 AM
Nice! I haven't been out yet, but hope to soon. Just now seeing a few bucks on the game cam. Been practicing with the bow. I've never even drawn it on a deer. Maybe this year.
Congrats, she'll be good eating, for sure.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/13/15 02:05 AM
I hunted exclusively with a bow for my first ten years of hunting. It taught me a lot. I have pics of an 8 and a ten that will both be shooters next year if they make it. I saw the 8 this evening as well.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/19/15 12:18 PM
Spent the weekend hunting geese in the Naperville, IL area. Didn't do well only 3 on Saturday and 3 on Sunday. I ran home on Sunday afternoon and jumped in the deer stand. I good choice as I shot this really old buck. Not a great rack but very old and large. Put a great shot on him at 30 yards and he only ran 70 yards.

Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/19/15 12:27 PM
Picture?
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/19/15 11:35 PM
is the picture not showing? It shows for me.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/19/15 11:53 PM
I logged in elsewhere earlier and it must have been blocked. I can see it now. He appears to have reasonable genetics to indicate some potential for some big trophies in your area. Should be good eating. A good shot is always the first goal. Congratulations! I only trust myself out to 25 yards with a bow. When younger, I could do pretty good at 45 yards, but I do not practice as much now.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 11:29 AM
Jawbone aging is putting him at over 5 years old. That is interesting since most mature bucks in the area died in 2012 from EHD. Just starting to see some good age structure. If tooth aging keeps him at over 5 years old that could make him one of the 2 year old that I kept passing in 2012.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 11:52 AM
I would have put him at 3.5 at max, probably 2.5. If he is 5, then his genetics are not what I suspected. I have been passing on a very nice 120s 8-point that I suspect is in the 2.5 to 3.5 age range based on his appearance and stupidity of standing under me at point-blank range. I have become very selective in recent years based on past success.
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 12:11 PM
Here's the tale of Sunday evening/Monday morning.

Picture a food plot, 60 yards or so wide by 200 yards long or longer. It is around 3/4 acre. and the long side runs north/south. It's bordered on the North by 100 acres of mature woods, with about 20 or so acres of woods to the East too. To the West is a 7 acre CRP field, to the South is more woods.

Wind is out of the North, I have a pop-up ground blind sitting about 5 yards into the woods on the East side of the food plot, about 30 yds South of the North end of the food plot. In that corner is a tree, with a scrape under it. Wind is from the North, and the property to the North is more or less a sanctuary, nobody lives there, and nobody hunts it. The front window is 1/2 open, the crossbow is sitting on a set of shooting sticks, I'm dressed in a black shirt, camo face mask on, inside the blind, sitting in a chair.

20 minutes before end of legal shooting light (1/2 hr after sunset) I see a doe about 30 yds out in the field, durn 'near directly west of me, doing the giraffe look, ears forward, stiff legging into the dirt every once in a while. What the heck? I didn't move, make any noise, nothing. I can't get a range on her with the rangefinder, I just have to guesstimate the range. I slowly get into position, she's broadside. I put the 30 yd mark about 1" behind her left front elbow and squeeze. I blink, and all I can see is her running off and the arrow going about another 20 yds and nosing into the food plot. (Burt coyote lumi-nock). I'm shooting a 2" rage Slip Cam broadhead. I look for blood coming out as she runs off, don't see anything and she runs thru some of the CRP, takes a hard right and into the woods she goes. I hear sticks breaking, what sounds like her going into a circle, a crash, then nothing. Dead deer, right?

I fill out the tag, take it with me, grab the flashlight and go out, figuring there will be blood all over the place and I'll find her asap. WTF?? No blood where she was standing. I know the x-bow is loud, but surely she couldn't have ducked the arrow....... So I go look at the arrow, nope, it's covered in blood. I look all over the food plot, no blood. I go to the edge of the CRP and look, no blood. There's a 30' wide mowed area between the CRP and the woods, I look up and down that area. Nope, no blood. What the heck??????????????????????? I do some walking in the woods - it's pitch black out by now. Nothing. There's a trail as wide as a tractor about 25 yds inside the woods to the North, she had to cross the trail, so I go up and down the trail. No blood.

O.K., I back out, go home and call my neighbor to help. We go back, and look for just shy of 2 hrs. Nothing, no blood, nothing. Crap.................

Temps will be in the low 40's, I'll come back when it's daylight out and do a grid search. I keep replaying the shot and keep thinking that it was a good one, unless she ducked enough to have it go over the spine thru her. But, why were all those breaking branches and sticks, followed by a crash? Why no blood??

I get up Monday morning, grab a roll of toilet paper and I'm out there about 40 minutes after sunrise. I comb the food plot, CRP edge, edge of the woods and the trail in the woods. Nothing - no blood. So, I start to the North of the trail in the woods and start a grid search. I comb the whole dang woods, go thru almost the whole roll of toilet paper marking where I walked - lines about 25 yds apart, and a good 1/4 mile long, back and forth, up and back.

After 3 1/2 hrs I call it quits. I covered the whole dang place and there ain't no deer here - no blood either. I send a text to my neighbor telling him that we didn't miss anything last night and that she's nowhere to be found. I decide to head for home, and walk out near the edge of the food plot. About 40 feet from the edge of the food plot I see this:


That's the exit side. She's laying in a 3' deep, 4' wide dry drainage ditch that was cut into the woods probably 50 years ago. I can't tell you how many times we walked by her. Unless you looked down the ditch in different areas, you can't see down it's length due to the trees and overgrowth in places. She went maybe 50 yds after the arrow hit her. Here's the entrance wound:


I didn't plan on hitting her that far forward on the entrance, but there WAS a pretty stiff north wind blowing. I send my buddy a text, telling him that I found her. I put the drag rope over her head, turn around and see these 3 guys, about 40 yds away and walking towards me, along the edge of the CRP looking for grasshoppers in the short grass.


They walked by at 20 yds. If I would have had the x-bow, I could have filled my turkey tag too.

I get her out, get her home, field dress her, and get her washed out. I think that the majority of the meat will be good, I don't think the flank will be any good. She was laying in the shade, in the lowest part of the woods. We'll see, as she's at the processor now. He thinks that I won't lose much either.

One down, 3 to go. One for my Aunt, one for my cousin who boogered up his shoulder and ribs and can't hunt this year (dislocated shoulder, 4 broken ribs and a punctured lung), and 2 for me.

See that white stuff on the exit side? That's foam from a lung. Why there was no blood trail, I'll never know. The only blood was where she bounded off a tree and a few downed branches as she went down.
Posted By: NEDOC Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 12:34 PM
Great story Scott.
Posted By: dlowrance Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 01:06 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
I would have put him at 3.5 at max, probably 2.5. If he is 5, then his genetics are not what I suspected.


Look at his face and body not his rack. Roman nose, swayback/large gut area. Older buck for sure. I'd have guessed 4.5-5.5 just from the pic. Definitely a cull buck, just not great genetics for growing a big rack. I've killed 2 in the last 3 years around my place with very similar traits. Big bodies, decent mass but no genetic predisposition for width or height on the rack.

They tasted just fine though.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 01:33 PM
I am certainly no pro on aging deer.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 06:09 PM
The tenderloins where great, had them for dinner last night. I caped him out, my taxidermist wanted it so I did it for him. He will be a euro mount.
Posted By: timshufflin Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 10/20/15 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
I am certainly no pro on aging deer.


First I love all the fun the OP has been having. No better way to enjoy the fall. I've just returned from Wyoming and my Son's and I all scored on Mule Deer doing spot and stalk.

On this whitetail though, I am with RAH on the age. Well, from the photo given I'm with RAH. I don't see the Roman nose I see on our older bucks and the photo doesn't really show the gut and sway back that some say it has. From just the photo shown, I'd say 2.5 year old buck but the teeth would know better. The problem is, you can't even count on the teeth when aging a deer. This buck also looks a bit "bright faced" to me. No matter though, nice animal and good times taking it!
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/10/15 09:43 PM
Took the old dog out Saturday. (He's 15, the oldest setter I've had)
He didn't get the point on the covey, but he pointed a few singles, and did point the pheasant. Hunted up by Kirksville Mo.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/10/15 10:49 PM
A 16 year old girl and I hunted my place last weekend for the season opener. I thought we would do well. We each glimpsed a deer but that's all.

Worst opening weekend ever. In 2 days of hunting, I didn't even hear a shot in the area. First time that's happened in 50 years of hunting.
Posted By: airborne3118 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 03:52 AM
I killed this buck Saturday morning right at daylight. I grunted him in. Sorry the picture sucks, my phone is old. He is a nice big 8, i'm guessing 3 1/2 or 4 1/2.

Attached picture 1107150739a.jpg
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 11:25 AM
Dave, sorry to hear about the lack of shooting opportunity, but I bet the younger people on the hunt had a good time and would bet you r a good host.

Tracy
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 11:54 AM
Air, nice buck when you're using a stick and string. That's not easy.

Tracy, they always enjoy getting away from town. I have been taking 4 boys hunting for years. The girl was the girl friend of one of the boys that I regularly take. She's a drop dead gorgeous sweetheart who has her head on right. Or at least as right as any of them are at that age. She even comes over and helps me build knives. I was going to build her a skinning knife. Then I asked her if she wanted to do it herself. She did it all and it turned out beautiful. She's no sissy kid and is deadly with a bow. I handed her a 222 to hunt with but she said she wanted to use something more powerful. She passed on my 243 and we finally settled on a 270 instead of my 30-06. A shame that she got skunked on her first hunt.
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 12:14 PM
That young lady knows a bit about firearms. My daughter fished with me many times out west, but never had any interest in shooting. I am taking her husband out for the firearms opener this weekend in Missouri. He's crazy about shooting/hunting. They've already got one year old twins, so there's some future hunters/fishermen in line.
I saw five deer the other morning, one was a very nice buck. Never gave me a shot with my bow, but maybe the gun hunters, son, and son in law will have better luck.
Posted By: gully washer Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 05:47 PM
Roger and Bill are bird hunting. All of a sudden Bill collapses. Roger immediately runs over to Bill and finds him unresponsive with no pulse and his eyes glazed over. Roger pulls out his cell phone and calls 911. He excitedly tells the 911 operator "I was out hunting with my friend when he suddenly collapsed... I cant feel any pulse, his eyes are glazed over and he's unresponsive!! "I'm afraid he may have died!! What can I do?"

The operator in a calm, soothing voice replies, "Take it easy sir. I can help. First, let's make certain that he's dead."
There is a silence, then the operator hears a gunshot.

Back on the phone, Roger says, "OK, now what?"
Posted By: Rainman Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 10:17 PM
I kind of feel bad about the deer I wound up getting. I live in a large area of homes subdivisions (about 1200 homes with scattered wooded areas) and we've been blessed to have a doe and her triplets, which everyone has gotten to watch grow. I even held one as a fawn early this spring. Dogs being walked, people petting them on occasion...they never got spooked or felt threatened here. Last week, I stopped to see mom and kids graving by the road, and 10 minutes later, one had been hit, and whomever hit her kept going. Front leg badly broken, a Police Officer asked if I had a knife. I'm not squeamish in the slightest, but bleeding out this small yearling doe was like putting down a beloved pet....only dressed out to 20#, and the most fat laden meat I've ever seen in a deer.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/11/15 10:54 PM
I was back in the woods last week changing camera cards and ran across this rub near of one of my cameras.



As an experiment I created a scrape next to it and peed in it. Others have had success doing this so we shall see. I'm either going to pizz him off or scare him away.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Rainman
I kind of feel bad about the deer I wound up getting. I live in a large area of homes subdivisions (about 1200 homes with scattered wooded areas) and we've been blessed to have a doe and her triplets, which everyone has gotten to watch grow. I even held one as a fawn early this spring. Dogs being walked, people petting them on occasion...they never got spooked or felt threatened here. Last week, I stopped to see mom and kids graving by the road, and 10 minutes later, one had been hit, and whomever hit her kept going. Front leg badly broken, a Police Officer asked if I had a knife. I'm not squeamish in the slightest, but bleeding out this small yearling doe was like putting down a beloved pet....only dressed out to 20#, and the most fat laden meat I've ever seen in a deer.


Tough duty Rex. Maybe hitting the deer was unavoidable. Driving off without stopping is inexcusable in my book.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:31 AM
That is one impressive rub.
Posted By: Bob-O Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 03:53 AM
That looks more like damage inflicted by Rockytoppers baevers
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:08 PM
Tbar, that is a good one for sure. I have five rubs less than 15 yds from the farm house. It is a rub line and so we decided to put up a camera to see what buck has made our farmhouse his home. Scrapes have just started showing up this past week at our place and we are still seeing some bachelor buck groups hanging together. Had 9 does in the front yd yesterday.

Tracy
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:44 PM
Tbar, did your game cam pick up a picture of the buck making that scrape?
He's got to be decent looking at the damage to that tree.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:47 PM
I forgot to mention, that yesterday while waiting on Walt to deliver my new HSB from Overton's, I was setting up on the hill overlooking the pond and there he was again frown I have a Water Turkey that has been showing up daily and I hate the dam things. As thoughts ran through my head, I was thinking, I raised my son not to shoot what he does not plan on eating, so now I am wondering how I might serve up a meal of water Turkey?? I know !! I know !! So I shot around him with my 22 mag, he left but when I cam back to the pond for the stocking of the HSB, he was back frown So now I am thinking Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and so Water Turkey anyone ?

Tracy
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 12:57 PM
I was raised in strict adherence to the three "P"'s when it comes to killing an animal, the only three reasons to take its life: Protection, Profit, or Provisions. The fourth "P", Pride, was frowned upon.

If there was absolutely no other means by which I could protect my investment, and I knew that significant damage was being caused by this bird's presence, I would do what I felt needed to be done. But not before exhausting every other maneuver I could think of to try and discourage it from hanging around.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 01:23 PM
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Tbar, did your game cam pick up a picture of the buck making that scrape?
He's got to be decent looking at the damage to that tree.


Not yet. I turned the game camera so the tree would be in view. I'll check it this weekend.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 05:05 PM
Sparky, we agree, I do not want to kill any of gods creatures if I don't have to, like the 3 P's. I have even let a copper head or two walk at my place but not water mocs and now after many attempts of getting the Cormorant to leave and not to return is getting a little frustrating. It's like he is saying u can't stop me !! Dam Bird

Tracy
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/12/15 06:45 PM
I hear you Tracy, and I agree. Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done.

On another note, I've mentioned before that I'm not a deer hunter but do enjoy squirrel hunting. Here's one that got a pass yesterday, photo taken quickly through the patio door with my phone...hope to get a better photo soon. It amazes me that such a creature can escape predation long enough to grow into adulthood. I watched it cross the valley below the house and start up the other side, a couple hundred yards away, and could still easily pick out that snow white fur against the dark woods.

Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 12:21 AM
Saw 20 different deer this afternoon, but not the big one. I manage the herd for health, but I am a trophy hunter. If you want provisions, get up and go to work. Hunting in this modern age for provisions is usually just an excuse to shoot the easy ones. Just my perspective. I shot a lot of young ones when I was less experienced, but if you keep at it, you can fill the freezer with mature animals. Trophy hunting and good wildlife management are quite compatible. Hunting is a sport in the US, and that is why we still have wildlife. Commercial hunting for food exterminated whitetails in most places.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 12:56 AM
Saw a HUGE buck this morning limping across a neighbor's lawn with a bloody hind quarter. Only one guy in our area actually hunts deer here (a lot of houses). Lots of deer though. I expect he is an exceptionally bad shot as I have never heard him shoot one time. It is always at least three in rapid succession. Maybe he figured, with so many deer around, it was easier to shoot another one than track the one he injured? Last time I heard him shooting was Sunday so this buck has been suffering awhile.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 01:34 AM
I also shudder at multiple shots. I use a bolt action or a bow. I am all for single shot weapons. I have seen two different lame smaller bucks this year, but both had battle scares from fighting. I had the same drop tine on my place for three years that was completely off of one front leg (small rack). Hopefully, the guy you saw will recover.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 01:54 AM
+1 Single shot weapons make you take the time to aim!
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 01:57 AM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Saw 20 different deer this afternoon, but not the big one. I manage the herd for health, but I am a trophy hunter. If you want provisions, get up and go to work. Hunting in this modern age for provisions is usually just an excuse to shoot the easy ones. Just my perspective. I shot a lot of young ones when I was less experienced, but if you keep at it, you can fill the freezer with mature animals. Trophy hunting and good wildlife management are quite compatible. Hunting is a sport in the US, and that is why we still have wildlife. Commercial hunting for food exterminated whitetails in most places.


RAH, I know we've hashed this over before, and you know I respect and value your opinion. But the comment about not needing to hunt for provisions in this modern age just illustrates how far removed you are from a few miles south of your location. Easy is absolutely the way to go when your family is counting on meat for the freezer. I suppose some adopted the lifestyle by choice, while others were born into it. I believe that makes a difference.

I will never understand the wisdom in removing the best genetics from a population of anything, just for the sake of pride, but that's okay. We all must do as we see fit, and there are certainly plenty of deer to be had.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 02:09 AM
FWIW I see there are three sides to that discussion. My dad never let anyone hunt our land unless they were hunting to feed their families. I respect that. I respect the position that the herd must be thinned and taking out the oldest and biggest, that have spread their seed, fills that need. (Kind of like finally taking that big fish out of the pond that is starting to decline to make room for the new generation). The one I can't respect is those that just want to kill something and there are way to many of those in my opinion! Just my 2 cents
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 02:34 AM
Bill, I understand where you're going. And if animals had a giant LED, countdown timer on their sides indicating just how much viable, productive life they had left, I would agree. But a fish you hold in your hands, up close and personal, while it's still alive. You can judge, (hopefully, if you've paid attention to PB grin) some idea of where that fish stands in its lifecycle, and decide if you want to harvest or not.

Not so a deer, or a squirrel. If you choose to kill because it's the biggest and best you've seen, and it's legal to do so, more power to you. But if management is high on your list of priorities, wouldn't you fill your tags with the lame, or blind, or infirmed animals? I could've killed that white squirrel easily, saved and preserved its tail for display, eaten the meat, and told myself that I saved it from a horrible, painful death brought by a hawk or perhaps an eagle. But the real truth would've been I killed it because it was unique, and I wanted it. And I would've been perfectly legal in that regard, but there's plenty of other squirrels out there.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 02:43 AM
I hear ya Sparkie and cannot disagree. Just saying I understand two of the three points of view. As for me, I just don't hunt anymore and haven't for 45 years. I follow my dad's philosophy, the day may come when I need to feed my family; then I will hunt. Until then, I will enjoy watching the critters!
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 07:29 AM
I give deer meat to folks that need it very year. If you count the hours spent hunting, you can provide better for your family working at McD's. Taking a mature deer ensures that the animal has already passed on its genetics. Managing deer is a science, so the scientists can understand it for you:)
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 10:56 AM
That trophy has spread his genes for years. Take it if you want it. I have owned my land for over 30 years and am sure that I have never seen the biggest deer on it. My 6 game cams prove that. Those suckers are nocturnal and, in their environment, are much smarter than I am.

I agree Sparky. No way I would shoot an albino.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:15 AM
We bought our land in 1990 and have converted most from ag land into wildlife habitat. I have never hunted anywhere else. The 10,000+ evergreen trees, thousands of other trees, 2 ponds, prairie areas, and 5 wetlands that we added hold a lot of deer. Much of my deer harvest has been to correct for "meat-hunting" "brown-its-down" hunting practices on neighboring land. There is a reason cattle farmers don't kill off the calves even if it is easier to catch them. Everyone has the right to hunt in any legal manner that they want, but not to pretend it is somehow a more noble pursuit or somehow better for the deer population. Just like managing a pond, there is a lot of science behind deer management. Deer are manged through doe control and limiting buck harvest.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:58 AM
I think there is a miss in understanding of deer and their genetics when it comes to the size of it's antlers. Genetics of the deer in the USA are good for the most part, it's the food first, that makes some a trophy, just like fish in a pond. It has been proven that the proper food can improve a deer 35% in just 3 yrs. It has been proven that a spike, when left to grow, may be the trophy buck in just 3 or 4 yrs. It's the farm belt where the deer are bigger, or South Texas where there is overabundance of Browse, their most desired primary food source. Second is age, left to grow older can make him a trophy, and then Genetics. So Food first, Age 2nd, Genetics 3rd that make trophy's. Does that sound familiar here @ the Pond Boss Forum. And another thing is that Does also pass genetics along. Another thing is if hunters don't thin out the deer population, Mother nature will.

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 02:01 PM
You hit it TRACY got to feed em and get some age on them. And take some does to try to valence the herd
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 02:16 PM
Another vote up for Tracy's post.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 04:42 PM
Which is more noble, hanging a trophy on the wall, or providing food for one's family? I would hazard a guess that when the very first shard of knapped flint was attached to a stick, bragging rights never entered the equation. And for those who believe that the need to hunt for sustenance is long past, I will repeat the offer I make every year when this subject comes up: Come ride with me for a day, and I will open your eyes. It still exists and it's still out there, off aways from the blacktop. Assigning blame or coming up with excuses as to why the need still exists does little to stretch the grocery budget.

I'm not a deer hunter, so help me understand. How is it that removing that trophy buck's genetics helps the herd as a whole? Sure, I get that he's hopefully had a few seasons to spread those genetics, but how do you know he doesn't have a few more left in him? Is one season enough? Two? Three? Seems to me that more would be better. If we let that trophy buck go, and he continues to spread those genetics, he will eventually go into decline, correct? So by that reckoning, if I am a trophy hunter I need to kill that animal while he still displays trophy status....in his prime in other words. Is that not counter-productive to managing the herd for improvement? Or is it actually a case of management not towards overall health of the herd, but merely the production of a select few trophy animals, intended for the kill?
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 04:42 PM
I was able to take my 2nd doe of the year Wed evening before the storm hit, she's at the processor now. Both will be given to my family - one to my 85 yr old aunt, the other to my cousin who had the incident with the ATV and cannot hunt this year.

I'm ready for shotgun/muzzleloader season. smile




There's a good sized buck running around, but I haven't been able to get it on camera.


Saw more like that - on 8"-10" dia White Oak trees.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:29 PM
If you want to learn about managing whitetails, there is plenty of material available. No need to debate this in the absence of knowledge.

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...ils&f=false
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:30 PM
Very nice shooting. I do not shoot over 100 yds.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:32 PM
I spent 3 months negotiating trying to buy a high fence/deer breading operation.

In hindsight I'm glad it fell through(seller took it off the market). $1-2000.00 per month feed bill plus every day chores if I kept the deer would have taken the fun out of it. I wanted it for the property....was going to sell off most of the deer as I don't particularly like the idea of "high fenced" deer. It would have been fun watching my friends drool over the big bucks though. lol

It was a beautiful place with a beautiful pond. Wife wanted to sell but the husband didn't. Maybe it will come up for sale again after the divorce settlement. smile

Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
If you want to learn about managing whitetails, there is plenty of material available. No need to debate this in the absence of knowledge.

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...ils&f=false



And no need to shrug off the question, we're all friends here and will remain so irregardless of the subject matter. How do you, RAH, perceive the elimination of the best genetics as beneficial to herd management?
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:53 PM
Thanks RAH. One property the shots typically are 30 - 100 yds., but could be 200 if the deer is out in the one CRP field. The other one is completely different. It's a large farm, they don't own much if any into the woods that borders it, but there are a lot of ditches running through the middle of the farm fields that have heavy growth/trees/shrubs from the ditches out about 20-30 yds. on either side of the ditch, and they have an abandoned RR track that also is overgrown and not planted. With the expanse of the fields, the shots are LONG and a 200 yd shot would be considered a close shot. I could use the long range rifle there if it was legal for deer and shoot way further than I've practiced, and I've practiced out to a hair over 3/4 of a mile.

The fields were mostly corn, and they are all harvested, chopped and chiseled now. It's relatively hard to stalk a deer when all you have to hide in is a chiseled mucky corn field.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 05:53 PM
Taking mature bucks is about maturity, not genetics. As others have already explained, nutrition and age are most important for trophy racks. Keeping the doe to buck ratio low means that only the biggest and healthiest bucks breed. It is the doe to buck ratio that drives herd improvement.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 06:31 PM
Herd improvement as defined by? Are we talking mature bucks, or trophy bucks? I would imagine that they are not automatically one and the same. I don't know that I hear hunters proclaim "I am a mature buck hunter" very often, but I do hear "I'm after a trophy buck" a lot.

If genetics are third on the list of important attributes necessary for trophy buck production, after food and age, then like fish I'm assuming they are the most difficult to manipulate. We can feed our fish and plant food plots for the deer, and we can release those younger fish with high Wr just like we can pass on those younger deer. But what do we do about genetics? From what I've read on the forum through the years, we breed selectively and cull, repeating as necessary, until we see the results we hoped for. We cull the less desirable fish, not those that show the greatest potential.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 06:49 PM
Wildlife biologists define herd improvement. If you are interested, see my link to a textbook on the subject. Folks study such things and have careers in this field of study.
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 06:55 PM
Tony, I agree.

But the reality is that when the rut is on, whitetail bucks travel great distances. Without a high fence, or a VERY deep pocket, it's impossible to hold the deer on property that you and only you control or manage. So, unless you have the cooperation of people in a mile or more radius of your hunting ground, letting the buck that you'd like to see as a trophy in a few years walk might not be it's ticket to him surviving this hunting season.

I've given up on setting my sights on taking one large particular buck. I tried that a few years ago with a few different bucks only to 1) never see them again or 2) find it dead, shot and not recovered by somebody on an adjoining property.

I've since switched my thoughts to providing the food and cover that deer need, and if one comes by that I'd shoot on the last day of the season, I'll shoot it.

My focus is on putting a few deer in the freezer anyway, so I am not holding out for a trophy. If one walks by, that's great, but I won't specifically hunt for one. Been there, done that and the tag doesn't make for good soup.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 07:35 PM
Scott, you've touched on exactly where I was headed next. Wild deer do not live in a static environment, unlike the fish in our ponds. I suppose I could head down to the river and institute a feeding program at a convenient spot on the bank, similar to a food plot for deer, and probably encourage a few catfish to hang around and reap the benefits of that feed I'm throwing. But if those fish travel downstream and get caught on a legal trotline after I've grown them to a larger size, I have no reason to gripe. That's just the way it is.

If I have food plots for the deer and I watch them come and browse on my trail cam, then my neighbors harvest them legally, I still have no gripe coming. That's how it works, why be upset? The fish in my pond belong to me, and only I have a say on how they are harvested. Those deer are a shared resource, and belong to the people of the state. And just like managing fish, not everyone will share in my idea of what constitutes proper management, nor should they be made to abide only by what I feel is acceptable harvest practice.

That's my problem with deer management. Is it really management, or simply a terrestrial equivalent of adding cover and/or attractant to the pond, in order to try and concentrate the fish for easier angling?

I thinking it may be the latter, and it's masked behind management. And if that's your thing, then it's cool with me so long as it's legal. Just step up and own it...."I killed this deer because it was the biggest I've seen." Not so much improving the herd, as improving the space above the fireplace.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 07:52 PM
Neighbor just texted me, he and a buddy are hunting on my place. No bucks, passed on some does, but two bobcats were seen. Very cool.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 07:57 PM
To each their own. The wooden beams are 6x6.




Had a pair of bald eagles land late morning (one above me in the same tree and one in a tree 10 yards away). Build it and they will come...
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 08:05 PM
RAH I can't quite make it out, what do I see that's metallic? A scythe or two? I see the single tree, very nice work, and jealous over the eagles!
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 08:12 PM
My wife and I built the porch about 25 years ago. You picked out the decorations pretty well. There is also a hanging blue heron mobile. We need to argue some more next spring over a beer out on that porch! But I need to go light on the beer. Have lost 57 pounds (was 232, now 175) since July. Not sure how I let myself get so fat! Back to the tree if I can find a spot out of the wind.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 08:19 PM
It's beautiful. Be safe, and good hunting. Very windy down here also.

(and congrats on the weight loss!)
Posted By: timshufflin Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 09:44 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Wildlife biologists define herd improvement. If you are interested, see my link to a textbook on the subject. Folks study such things and have careers in this field of study.


RAH my man, I believe that I go after large antlered deer because I like to get older animals. One can try to age a deer on the hoof but many times you are really kidding yourself/ourselves. If I see a deer that is at or outside the ears, 16", I know I've got at least a 2 year old animal (beam width is a better indicator of age by far then point count). In an area where the hunters are taking deer on 10 to 40 acre parcels, a 2 year old deer is what you hope for. Well, of course you hope for better and I have done better but you get the point.

There is no way to manage an animal for genetics when it is part of the commons. You can have 1.5 year old deer, that most people couldn't age, and they are a 6x6 which is legal to shoot under any government law. You could then have a 5.5 year deer that is a 3x3 and may or may not be able to be shot under some states laws. You should shoot the 5.5 and not the 1.5 if you want better genetics (in the given scenario) but this just can't be legislated. Even a hunter of good faith could be fooled if they are not seasoned and seasoning comes from TIF (Time In Field).

I think Michigan is starting to go in the right direction with many county's requiring that the deer must have 3 points on one side. This saves many of the 1.5 year class (except the best unfortunately) and also makes hunters look over an animal better before they shoot. Of course this is my opinion. Many people just want to point and shoot anything they see, I understand that position especially when people are not blessed with the hunting land some have.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:21 PM
High Fencing might have a place here in the USA but not @ my place. I have hunted high fence places and have been guest at them. Some are so large of an area you would not know it is high fenced. There are +'s and -'s

Tracy
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:42 PM
I judge age by mass and minimum spread out past the ears, which certainly is not an exact measure. Number of points is really not a factor. There are certainly regional differences, but I feel pretty confident that a heavy rack out past the ears is at least a 3 1/2 yr old on my place. When you let one walk, you are sure that you are not ending hem early. Nobody can control what others choose to do on their places, as long as its legal. I took a lot of young animals as I was first learning to hunt. Any deer is a trophy when you start out. Saw a different mature buck with very short tines. He would be a cull if I get the chance to take him.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:42 PM
Genetics in a wild herd is a crap shoot. A genetically great buck can breed with a "junk" doe and vice versa.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/13/15 11:53 PM
If you keep the doe to buck ratio low, only bucks that win the fights breed. This increases the proportion of trophy bucks over time. This drives many hunting regulations like Indiana's 1 buck rule. It does take time.
Posted By: timshufflin Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:04 AM
Originally Posted By: RAH
If you keep the doe to buck ratio low, only bucks that win the fights breed. This increases the proportion of trophy bucks over time. This drives many hunting regulations like Indiana's 1 buck rule. It does take time.


RAH, I used to believe all that stuff but not so much anymore. We are running about 2 to 1 right now doe to buck. Back when I moved here it was about 8 to 1, still not bad. I have seen a button buck running a train on a 7 point on a doe. Then, "switch". I have seen great big monsters run off the sissy buck while another sissy buck takes his babe and breeds her in front of him. I have seen so many button bucks breed during the December rut that I've lost count.

As a general rule do the studs get the lady's? Maybe. As with human's though there are plenty of lesser than's that get the pretty girl.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Genetics in a wild herd is a crap shoot. A genetically great buck can breed with a "junk" doe and vice versa.


I agree Dave. So when those good genetics do manage to beat the odds and manifest themselves, why is that the deer for the wall?
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:24 AM
Interesting conversation...

To provide an analogy...If you have a pond with LMB. Do you manage it to prevent overpopulation by harvesting the biggest and most spectacular LMB or by harvesting the unspectacular fish?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:36 AM
And yet the results of such strategies have been shown over and over again. Its called science, based on actual documented evidence. Indiana is already seeing the returns. Fortunately, the folks in charge make decisions based on this science, not intuition.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:46 AM
Not taking sides on this one. I see logic on both sides. Just throwing out food for thought.

I could also provide an analogy of human children vs fish. We want our kids to be the perfect weight for their height and are concerned about that little short kindergarten kid that weighs 130 lbs as being unhealthy. In the pond community, Wr/Rw, the consensus seems to be that fish that are overweight for their length are the spectacular ones.

Which train of thought is correct? Are these even valid analogies?
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 01:19 AM
I admit that I lean to the analytical side myself, but acknowledge that science is not infallible, and is often besieged by previously unknown variables that rear their heads at the most inopportune moments. Most embarrassingly whenever I think I have a firm grasp of cause and effect.

If I take great pains to plant food plots and harvest deer as I believe to be correct, all in the name of herd management, I'm liable to point to my efforts as being the cause of any noticeable improvements. But as has already been established, deer are not static and they move. How can I be sure that a neighbor two miles away, who has implemented a management/harvest program at odds with my own, isn't actually responsible for the herd improvements, and I am really reaping the rewards of his efforts, not my own?

With the fish in my pond I'm pretty sure it's all me. Not so with deer, unless I have them fenced in, or have convinced all the adjoining property owners for miles around to throw their lot in with mine and adopt my strategies.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 10:32 AM
Is this A Modest Proposal?

Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Not taking sides on this one. I see logic on both sides. Just throwing out food for thought.

I could also provide an analogy of human children vs fish. We want our kids to be the perfect weight for their height and are concerned about that little short kindergarten kid that weighs 130 lbs as being unhealthy. In the pond community, Wr/Rw, the consensus seems to be that fish that are overweight for their length are the spectacular ones.

Which train of thought is correct? Are these even valid analogies?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 10:34 AM
The same can be said for air pollution. Why should I not burn plastic on my place if the neighbors might anyway? That attitude is why public restrooms look the way they do.

Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I admit that I lean to the analytical side myself, but acknowledge that science is not infallible, and is often besieged by previously unknown variables that rear their heads at the most inopportune moments. Most embarrassingly whenever I think I have a firm grasp of cause and effect.

If I take great pains to plant food plots and harvest deer as I believe to be correct, all in the name of herd management, I'm liable to point to my efforts as being the cause of any noticeable improvements. But as has already been established, deer are not static and they move. How can I be sure that a neighbor two miles away, who has implemented a management/harvest program at odds with my own, isn't actually responsible for the herd improvements, and I am really reaping the rewards of his efforts, not my own?

With the fish in my pond I'm pretty sure it's all me. Not so with deer, unless I have them fenced in, or have convinced all the adjoining property owners for miles around to throw their lot in with mine and adopt my strategies.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 12:54 PM
"And why shouldn't I be the one to shoot that trophy deer before the neighbors do", eh? smile

By the way, did you make it back out yesterday? Do any good? Not as many shots this morning as I anticipated.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 01:15 PM
Trophy Deer ? DD1 made the comment about never seeing the biggest deer on the property, except by camera. And his comments made of how smart and nocturnal the biggest trophies are. Dave, I agree, the older are the smartest by far. And are not taken so easily. I think most are taken by accident, or the hunter just happened to be in the right spot when a girl (doe) got him in trouble. Like some of the humans I know smile. Dave I agree, the 5 yr old or older buck can be hard to harvest. That is the deer I am after. I have let a lot of bucks take a pass, I do not hunt for what we might consider a trophy, I hunt that elusive one. I hunt him because he is that challenge I look for, that goal that only I have set for me. Not for the wall, but for me.

Tracy
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 02:36 PM
Tracy, if that elusive, wily old buck that shows up on the trail cam photos is well past his prime from a more "traditional" trophy sense, and that decline is visually apparent, would you still take him over a younger, more robust and visually pleasing specimen, while letting that more magnificent specimen walk?

Not trying to back you into a corner, just curious about what drives each of us to hunt.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/14/15 02:47 PM
I would take him as he is actually a trophy cause he made it for so long. Plus when they get real old they basically starve due to worn down teeth.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 01:36 PM
Sparkie, some people would not believe me when I say, I have let 12 points walk. Because I aged him @ 3.5 yrs. And have continued on my hunt for an 8 pointer or a 6 because of his elusiveness, his ability to outsmart us humans. I am saying, its the hunt !! If I can get this guy to 10 yds, I have done what I set out to do. It's not easy, and like esshup said here, I have had Tag soup more yr's than not.

Tracy
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 01:50 PM
Tracy, I admire that philosophy. I will probably never be a proponent of trophy hunting, or at least what I perceive as being the most common form of trophy hunting, but your definition puts a different spin on things, and is food for thought.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 02:07 PM
Sparkie, to continue this I would like to say that old bucks will remain in his core area 85% of the yr. He knows his area, his home, He will venture out at dark and will return before daylight. He knows the scents in his home area, he knows the movements, he will hunker down when needed, he will circle you and he will evade you when needed. These bucks are out there, most of us have seen them on camera, but never get to harvest them. And when u get him close, you may not get the shot because he came in where u did not expect him. I love it, and when everything is right, the weather, the wind, that is when I slip in to hunt him. That wily buck. smile

Tracy
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 02:20 PM
Those wily bucks are tough eating. They are old and scared up and wiry. I would take a 6 or 8 way before 12-14.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 02:27 PM
When hunting for meat, and could afford to be choosy, I would tend to agree. Genetics or trophy would never enter the equation.
Posted By: JKB Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 03:42 PM
Not many shots this morning for opener of firearm up here. Numbers are a tad low this year and they even cancelled an earlier doe hunt. Also have a lot of bow hunters now which runs six weeks prior to firearm.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/15/15 11:01 PM
Had two first for me with one shot last night. I shot my first turkey with a bow and it was a bearded hen, another first for me.

Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 01:06 AM
Congrats!
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 01:17 AM
Congrats on the bird. I love chicken fried wild turkey steak fingers.

Tracy
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 02:28 AM
I am ashamed to say I have never tried wild turkey (the bird not the booze grin). Do you eat just the breast or are drumsticks and thighs on the menu?
Posted By: SetterGuy Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 03:39 AM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Congrats on the bird. I love chicken fried wild turkey steak fingers.

Tracy


We do the same with pheasant breast. They are so good.
Posted By: airborne3118 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 09:31 AM
Gentlemen,

I've enjoyed reading all the comments about hunting the trophy or shooting to cull deer but I want to post this picture tonight and tell my story. The young man in this picture is my best friend and the beautiful young lady is his step daughter. He is 6 years younger than me, we met when I was 16 and he was 10. It's a long story about that but I will leave it at that for now. Basically I started dragging him along deer hunting and small game hunting and catfishing at night. He took to all of it and has been an avid outdoorsman since. Now he is actively getting his step daughter involved and tonight she killed her first deer. I'm so proud of him for the way he is raising this young girl that I am just bubbling inside. I hope she continues to hunt and fish and they make many more memories together.

Jeremy, if you ever happen upon this post, you make me proud, your a good man.

Attached picture 20151115_185038.jpg
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 10:18 AM
That smile says it all! Thanks for posting this. That is a trophy she will not forget.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 11:22 AM
airborne, that sounds a lot like me and one of my Grandsons. I started taking him deer hunting with me when he was 4. We sat in a blind or just in the woods. He had his BB gun and I had a 30-06. He got to take the 1st shot. If it wasn't a clean kill, I had to finish them off. He took his first pig at 6 and his first scrub buck at 7 or 8 with his 222.

He is now 6'3" and 225 lbs; pretty good right guard but resents football getting in the way of hunting. He and his buddies would spend every minute in the woods and are pretty good outdoorsmen. One of them even broke up with a girl friend because he wanted to hunt weekends with no outside interference and she was kinda "demanding". They even resent football because it keeps them from leaving on Friday afternoon to head to my place. A normal weekend for me is 3 or 4, 16 and 17 year old, teens around and no place for me to hunt. I recently took a 16 year old girl hunting but she didn't get a shot. Of course, I made sure that my Wife was along with no boys that weekend. I'm hoping that I can make a difference in the kids lives but still remember being that age. They tell each other to never chap Mr Dave or you may not get to hunt. None of their parents hunt and can't afford a deer lease. Over the last 5 or so years, we've had lots of talks about booze, drugs, pregnancies, STD, etc whether they want to hear it or not. Of course, I generally doing all of the talking. I recently got a call to pick them up when one of them got a couple of 6 packs of beer. They had sense enough to not drive and I didn't bitch at them. Heck, I was that age once and am glad that they had sense enough to not drive.
Posted By: lassig Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 12:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I am ashamed to say I have never tried wild turkey (the bird not the booze grin). Do you eat just the breast or are drumsticks and thighs on the menu?


Just the breast meat, the legs are all tendons and impossible to eat.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 12:21 PM
Awesome photo airborne! Outstanding job on the young lady's part.
Posted By: CMM Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 01:25 PM
DD1, All teens should have someone in their lives like you. They will remember you and be better people because of you. Way to go!
CMM
Posted By: Bob-O Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 03:39 PM
+1
Posted By: RC51 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 06:30 PM
Ok guys wow what a Saturday for me and son and my dad!! Here is the story!

My Son Noah has gone hunting with me since he was about 14. His first time out ever at age 11 he shot a nice little spike. I put him on some does when he was 13 and 14. He has killed them all with one good clean shot! Never really got him on anything decent and he kinda got bored of I guess and had other stuff on his mind (Mainly Girls) lol. Well this last year he said he wanted to go hunting again with his dad. Well just so happens I'm taking my dad also! I shot 2 nice bucks last year so I am trying to just have fun and pay it forward!! Fast Forward to Saturday!

Noah and I are in a nice wooden ground blind together. I told him to get ready cause around that 8 to 830 mark is a good window! Well at 7:50 a real nice deer cut across the road at about 150 yards. Heck he didn't stop at all he just walked right on by! We both thought it was a buck but was not sure! Well here in Arkansas were right on the rut season so I thought I would try to call it back around with a doe call. We waited and nothing, so I called again, about 10 minutes later all of a sudden at 85 yards this nice 9 point steps out on the side of the road. We both had our guns up and I told Noah nice buck shooter!! By then he was starting to cross the road pretty fast! I yelled out a baaaaaaaaaa at him and he stopped right in the middle of the road with the sun shining on him broadside!! Man is was a sweet looking picture!! I wish I was videoing!! Noah took the shot and the buck tucked his tail and turned right back around and went back in where he came from. We were knuckle bumping and high fiving and he was shaking like crazy!! LOL! He had the fever afterwards!! Even I was shaking some!! We were not sure what he was but we knew he was nice!!! Well Noah tracked him and we found him about 45 yards away nice clean shot!! It could not have gone any better!! What a day and memory with his dad and grandpa!! And all the other hunters at camp! Truly priceless!!!! I think he is hooked now!! smile One proud dad!!!





Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 08:06 PM
Very nice......Congrats!!!
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/16/15 09:54 PM
That's one he won't forget.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/17/15 10:45 AM
Excellent!
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/17/15 10:59 AM
Rc, that is a nice Buck, sounds like a memory none of you will forget. And thanks for sharing.

Tracy
Posted By: RC51 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/17/15 01:07 PM
Hey guys thanks! It was for sure a great time!! That night we had brats and burgers and hung out around the camp fire and roasted marsh mellows and just soaked the whole day in!! It really was priceless!!

RC
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/18/15 04:35 PM
A neighbor with adjoining property to my north just stopped in to show me this. This was a heavy bodied 12 point, he claims there's a larger, very dark 14 in there also, but very spooky.





Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/18/15 05:23 PM
Very nice deer!
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/18/15 05:38 PM
To have lived that long, I'll bet that sucker was also spooky.
Posted By: ewest Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/18/15 06:56 PM
Nice work guys.
Posted By: Zep Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/19/15 01:32 AM
neat deer video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a3e_1447781458
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/20/15 03:23 PM
Had a junior buck (might be nice next year) and then a button come by early. Later, a doe came by with two mostly grown fawns. Rut seems very late this year. The fawns finally wandered off without mom. Heart/lung shot - Dropped within 50 feet. Large doe - will get field-dressed weight later. guessing 120+lbs. Had one that was 155 lbs a few years back.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 02:24 AM
A fellow member on here who has become a good friend of mine who is one of the most genuinely nice men I have ever met gave me permission to hunt one of his properties here in Virginia. The second evening hunting it, this nice 10 point showed himself. I was able to make an easy 35 yard shot. I was hunting with my late father-in-law's rifle which had been passed down to me after his passing. It was the first time I had hunted with the rifle and this was the first deer I had taken with it. I was very excited and filled with emotions. Unfortunately after dragging him over a mile to get him out(he field dressed at 162 pounds), I managed to tear my right calf muscle back at my truck. Oh my luck! So now I am in a boot and will be hobbling around for the next 8 weeks until I heal up and rehab. Anyways, here are the photos!




Hope your hunting seasons are going great!
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 02:42 AM
Nice 8! Sorry about he injury.
Posted By: Bob-O Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 03:03 AM
Good ta hear from ya again, tough about the calf but great deer. Your FIL is surely proud.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Nice 8! Sorry about he injury.


8, he's a 10! And thanks, it's basically killed the rest of my hunting season. Oh well.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 10:50 AM
Damn - I can't count! Great way to kill the rest of the season. Nice tine length except the brows. Please let us know what he scores. I think he'll do well.
Posted By: bryani289swmi Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/21/15 01:53 PM
Our son Grant has been having a decent year duck/goose hunting on our pond(daughter Gracie goes too, just not as often). He only gets out a few times a week and I'm guessing he has 30+ ducks and several geese. Here's a picture from a few Saturday mornings back, a goose and a couple woodies. It's been dry around here and I passed on hunting with him. I wanted to do some dozer work in an area the kids call "the overflow", I'll have to do a separate post on that project sometime. Anyways, we walked down and I started the dozer while he continued on to hunt. I hadn't been on the dozer 30 minutes when he walked past me with this. Maybe next time I will have learned that work can wait. Thanks.

Bryan

Posted By: JKB Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/22/15 12:49 AM
Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Originally Posted By: RAH
Nice 8! Sorry about he injury.


8, he's a 10! And thanks, it's basically killed the rest of my hunting season. Oh well.


Sorry for your injury CJ, but stay the hell away from the Opiates as a pain killer.

They do work quite well for the intended task at hand, but just jumped off the bridge from a taper down, and breakfast is now a good thing grin
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/22/15 11:32 AM
I knew a guy that went to the Fed. prison for having to many ducks in the freezer. He lived on a lake here in Shreveport and hunted every day until someone called in about all the ducks he was bringing in. Just saying, I am sure your whole family hunts, Don't they? And hay Guys, those are some Nice Bucks !!

Tracy
Posted By: bryani289swmi Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/24/15 01:22 AM
Tracy,

The entire family doesn't hunt as much as he does but there is nothing illegal with his numbers. He hunts ethically or he wouldn't be hunting at all. My math goes like this:

-hunted 3x/week for 5 weeks is 15 hunts.
-limit is 6 birds/day including no more than:

4 mallards (max. 2 female)
3 wood ducks
2 redheads
3 scaup
2 pintails
1 black duck
2 canvasbacks
5 teal
2 geese

This brings him to a total of 90 birds if he limited out each hunt, which he doesn't come close to. He probably has about 35 total, many of which have been consumed within a day of each hunt. Certainly not more than 3 limits total are in our freezer as allowed by law. Thanks.

Bryan
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/24/15 12:57 PM
Bryan, I am glad you posted your calculations. I have only your best interest at heart. Hope no one took my comments wrong, I was only trying to help. I have been told here to be careful when posting such things as many read this forum and some things might be misunderstood. Happy everyone is having some good hunts. smile

Tracy
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/24/15 02:28 PM
My hogs are back with a vegence.

Looks like someone roto tilled a strip 200 yards long up the fence line to within 20 yards of the shop.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/27/15 05:14 PM
Last day of hunting vacation on Sunday at 3 PM - Settled for one that I have been letting walk since early October. Looking forward to next year.





17" IS, 20"MBs, 6&7" G2s
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/27/15 11:11 PM
Nice! RAH can you elaborate on the measurements you posted below your photo, for someone who is ignorant about such things?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 12:09 AM
Thank you IS = Inside spread, MB = main beams, G2 = first points after brow tines. It is part of the scoring system. Not perfect, but a pretty good system.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 02:07 AM
Okay thanks, I assumed it was something like that. When a buck is scored, this is the means by which it's done?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 10:55 AM
It is more elaborate than that. There are a lot of measurements and mass is quite important as are all the tine lengths. For a "typical" buck like mine, symmetry is important because only the weak side measurement actually counts in the official net score, but there is also a gross score which is the number of inches before deductions. For "atypical" antlers, I think there are no deductions, so it is easier to get a higher score for a smaller rack. Below is the scoring sheet for a typical rack. My buck will not score well.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/pdf/ScoreSheet.pdf
Posted By: JamieE Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 12:35 PM
Congrats RAH! Im guessing 2 or 3 yr old.. Hard to tell from pics. Im still hunting and remaining patient as I really like to hunt the late season with bow. For me late is the best time to harvest a real toad.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 02:01 PM
It could be a 2.5 yr old, but based on the whole package, I think he is 3.5. I should have had more restraint! Mass is OK, but not great (4.5" bases measured right above the bur; 4.125 & 4.375 official)).
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 02:07 PM
Our hunt starts up here on Monday for a week. I have two of my three boys will be hunting for the first time. Looking forward to it this year. We have four tags to fill in the house with a week to do it.

We like the late hunt to have a bit of snow but might be hard pressed to get some next week up here.

Some great looking bucks guys.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/28/15 02:15 PM
You guys get the really big ones up there!
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/30/15 04:08 PM
CJ, that's a great deer. Let me (us) know what it scores. I'm curious, that's all.

Bummer about the calf. OUCH!!!!
Posted By: ewest Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/30/15 04:23 PM
Nice work guys . deer and ducks. CJ get well soon ! Tbar good luck with the pigs.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 11/30/15 05:49 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
CJ, that's a great deer. Let me (us) know what it scores. I'm curious, that's all.

Bummer about the calf. OUCH!!!!


I'd like to see that score too. He looks like a very good one!
Posted By: GET N BENT Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/03/15 09:19 PM
Shot these on public land.

Attached picture web small buck.jpg
Attached picture web small hog.jpg
Attached picture 20141220_090429-1.jpg banjo web small.jpg
Posted By: GET N BENT Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/03/15 09:23 PM
Not sure why you have to click on the link. What am I doing wrong? help please!
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/03/15 10:49 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
You guys get the really big ones up there!



This is one of the big ones. Hes rutted out really good. The rut seems to have run long with the warmer weather. They are out in the flats and not in the valleys yet. Hoping for cold weather tonight to drive them back in the valley.

Run a few bigger ones out. You know the bobble head ones. The rack you can see bobble when they run.

Thick rack beat to he!!

Cheers Don.

Attached picture IMG_1540.jpg
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/03/15 11:29 PM
I saw that in another post. He is a very nice buck!
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:01 AM
I heard 3 shots as fast as they could be fired this evening. Got the binocs out and was sad to see the neighbor dropped a small doe and her this year's fawn in the field next to our property. I understand the need for deer hunting guys and support those that hunt. This just strikes me as very wrong.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:06 AM
Me too Bill- hunt the older does- leave the yearlings
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:16 AM
I don't know much about deer hunting but I know you need a tag. What tag do you put on a little this year's fawn?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:21 AM
We have a surplus of does compared with bucks (again this year) due to the ease of shooting young bucks, and some hunters habits. I dropped a large doe the afternoon (number 4). The doe to buck ratio was getting toward the 2:1 optimum ratio last year and I though that I could ease up, but the missing and wounded young bucks this year have things skewed again. The overall deer population in my area will just keep getting lower until the "meat hunters" may find the pickings get pretty thin. Filling the freezer with does is really not that bad a deal, even if they are small ones (compared with removing young bucks). The meat from my deer will go to good use.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:34 AM
My hang up here is the shooting of a maybe 50 or 60 pound fawn. How much meat can there be? To me that is just shooting to kill something, not hunting. Just my 2 cents and I am ok if folks don't agree and won't argue the point. Just my personal thoughts.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 09:31 AM
As long as the meat is used, and the herd benefits from the removal of doe fawns, I am OK with it. They are a lot of work for a lot less meat, and not much of a challenge from a hunting perspective. I had two young ones around the stand for over an hour a week ago. They finally saw me but did not even know that I was a threat. They went right back to browsing and I finally had to chase them away when the light left and I wanted to get back to the house. Fawns do present an opportunity for inexperienced hunters to get started.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 10:47 AM
Bill, this years fawn is probably going to survive without Mom. It will, more than likely, also be a doe because, had it been a male, she would have run it off to survive on it's own before now.

A lot of this stuff is kinda like managing a pond and the health of a deer herd is dependent on forage. After a couple of days it will join with other young deer. Or, she will be accepted into a group of does.

A couple of years ago I was hunting and saw 3 young(under 1 year old) deer come into the pasture. Their mothers had obviously abandoned them when it became time to breed. 2 were females and one was male. The 2 females were kicking at the young male and trying to run him off. I figured that he would, sooner or later, find some males to shoot pool and drink beer with and get away from the girls.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 12:35 PM
Bill, Pat, I agree with both of you. And we do not harvest yearlings and we will not allow hunting a doe who has a fawn or twin fawns with her. A Doe with out young are open to hunting if we feel we need or want to harvest. We watch over the herd as much as we can on a 175 acre low fence piece of property. We keep around 10% of our land in year round wildlife food plots to improve our numbers and quality of the deer that live yr round on the place. Our County is a 4 deer per hunter season and runs for about 4 months, with a 13" spread on the bucks, this will usually be measured by "He is outside the ears" when hunting as reference before shooting. It has improved the antler size of harvested deer and usually adds age to the harvested Buck. We also see where fawn survival is around 30% as an average yearly count goes. And we have not figured out how we count our Buck to Doe ratio, because of the "never seen buck before" that show up regularly. We see about 20 of those bucks show up during the rut. And that makes it hard to count buck to doe ratio's. We try to hunt 4 yr old or older bucks, so some years we will harvest and some years we don't. We will most always get a shot but as bow hunters, we will not always "get er done". lots of variables come into play, including "we missed over or under". Comments like he jumped the string might be herd around the camp fire lol. I like bow hunting and will hunt several days a week in small sets of 90 min or so and I see several deer that most hunters will take, but I like watching a scrap being refreshed as I watch at 20 or 30 yds, or deer bedding under me as I hunt, I just like being out there in the woods. lots to see. smile

Tracy

PS, I am happy when I see the harvest pictures you show here guys, I like the smiles and it is nice to compare the deer from other parts of the country.

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Bill, this years fawn is probably going to survive without Mom. It will, more than likely, also be a doe because, had it been a male, she would have run it off to survive on it's own before now.

A lot of this stuff is kinda like managing a pond and the health of a deer herd is dependent on forage. After a couple of days it will join with other young deer. Or, she will be accepted into a group of does.

A couple of years ago I was hunting and saw 3 young(under 1 year old) deer come into the pasture. Their mothers had obviously abandoned them when it became time to breed. 2 were females and one was male. The 2 females were kicking at the young male and trying to run him off. I figured that he would, sooner or later, find some males to shoot pool and drink beer with and get away from the girls.


Usually the doe will NOT run off a male offspring until it is 18 months old and gets its first set of antlers . Most of the time yearling bucks are nubbins, meaning they have no hardened antler protruding thru the skin.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 02:16 PM
This topic is still fascinating to me. Someone, I think it was Dave, compared it to managing a pond. That's what I think also, except I consider this pond to be public water. The way I see it, if it's legal, there's no gripe coming. "Meat hunter" or not.

Back to the pond scenario. A few years ago I decided if I was ever going to catch that one pound BG, I would need to produce it myself in one of my own ponds. A 1/2 pound BG in public water will never make it to a pound, if it goes home in a bucket with the first angler who pulls it off a spawning bed....legal or not, great genetics or not. A public resource is just that, public.

High fence, anyone? wink
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 02:42 PM
Sparky, my private pond is manageable to some degree. In comparison, low fence properties do not make a manageable deer herd. But as a property owner you can assist in improving "The Deer Herd". Studies have been made where improvements of property, such as cover, available food and water can increase the deer's size by as much as 35% in just 3 years, and will improve the numbers you will keep on your property. And with some of those deer, they may not leave the property except for short term ventures. This might make him open to the public. But, As much as 85% of a bucks life time he will stay in an area he calls his home or his core area. We have watched bucks grow up on the property and we will go through a time where he will not be seen on the property (during the rut) and then we will see him back on the property. Hopefully he will make it through the season and the night hunting poachers, if he does, it kinda of makes it worth the time money and labor of low fence management. Ha, it's not a perfect deal, but if you enjoy the outdoors and wildlife, it's worth it to me.

Tracy

Tracy
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 02:56 PM
I hear you Tracy, and I think I understand where you're coming from. However, in my mind there is still no escaping the eventuality that you are attempting to manage, hopefully improve, a public resource. If I have a dock on a public BOW, and feed the fish underneath it every day, they should show some signs of improvement. And they will most likely tend to hang around. And if my dock is large enough, they may indeed find shelter and escape harvest by confining themselves to residing underneath it.

But I still have no say in preventing an angler in a boat from anchoring right off my dock, and casting up to it.

So in that regard, how big of a "private dock" is needed to have any chance of seeing the fruits of your labor, rather than simply rewarding the efforts of the angler who figures out anchoring in front of it is a pretty good harvest strategy?

Hundreds of acres?
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 03:05 PM
I have two neighbors that now are managing like me. Someone has to start things off. Seeing the large racks on my porch helps a bit too.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 03:07 PM
Sparky, Same thing, I see no difference, like you. But some public places are hard to get to and see little to no pressure. Or like a lake where only a few of the public fish. This makes it manageable to a point. If your pier on a public lake is hard to get to it might be manageable. Same with managing a pubic deer herd. Lots to do with where your property if located.

Tracy
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 03:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
My hang up here is the shooting of a maybe 50 or 60 pound fawn. How much meat can there be? To me that is just shooting to kill something, not hunting. Just my 2 cents and I am ok if folks don't agree and won't argue the point. Just my personal thoughts.



The yearlings are the good tasting ones and the larger does weeks after the rut. The big old bucks are rutted out and lean tough meat.

1) it is very very difficult to judge size if they are running at you.

2) they will run across 1000 acres in 5 minutes when driven.

It is very rare that any deer will stay in a 200 acre area year round. They may settle into a 500 acre area for the winter when it gets -10 but there is no season for them then.

I personally would take a button buck to 8 point and be happy throwing my tag on. More cars take deer around here then all the hunters put together. Hunters get one week a year cars and truck are 365 days a year.

Cheers Don.

EDIT: P.S. taking a deer during a rut is like cheating.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 03:35 PM
This might be a good place and time to tell this story. There is a 9,000 acre National wildlife Refuge across the blk top rd from me. And during WW II they built an ammunition plant there. And in 1943 the Texas Parks and Wildlife determined there were no deer in Texas at that time. So they brought in deer from Wisconsin, Illinois along with a few other northern states. They stocked these deer here at the 9,000 acres and stocked another area near San Antonio Texas. These deer were monitored and were used to increase a non existent deer herd in Texas. They did well and in fact there were so many deer from the two herds that Texas deer population grew to an overabundance and where a disease took most all of the Texas deer in 1961. So the Texas Parks and Wildlife reseeded the deer again by importing northern deer to these same two locations. They monitored the deer herd again and in 2008, the Texas Parks and Wildlife stopped the monitoring of these deer. Now known as Texas Deer. This 9,000 acre National Wildlife Refuge is now open a few days a year to deer hunting, mostly a few days of youth hunts and a very few days of public Bow hunting.

Tracy
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 03:49 PM
DonoBBD - You are not alone. That is why i have harvested a couple dozen deer (mostly does) over the last 4 years from my place. The post-rut doe herds are now 5 or 6, rather than the 20 that existed 4 years ago. The result of taking the easy-picking baby bucks will be a much smaller overall deer heard in my area to achieve the desirable doe to buck ratio. I follow the recommendations of the wildlife biologists who have studied deer-herd management. Eventually the meat hunters might end up with less meat in their freezers than if they simple left the baby bucks alone. Meat hunting and trophy deer management are compatible if restraint is practiced. Unless you prefer baby bucks to baby does, you are simply removing a pubic resource that others would like to enjoy. It is not illegal, just inconsiderate.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 04:19 PM
RAH, in my reading of biologist papers, QDMA and such, I have seen where some opinions in management numbers are changing. And from personal experience I might see where or how opinions vary. You write of reducing the doe herd from 20 to 5 and attempting a doe/buck ratio of 2 to 1. so with that in mind, I have seen where the doe numbers were brought down and in doing so the buck numbers came down also. One thing that comes to mind is where a property has reduced to 1 to 1 or so and when having low doe numbers they did not see the rut bucks they had seen in the past years. If there are 5 does and they are bred, the rut bucks may not venture on to that property. where if the doe numbers are higher the rutting (traveling bucks) are more. That increases the possibility of more bucks being taken. I know of deer leases in Texas where they reduced the does and that reduced the number of bucks. Making the deer lease no longer attractable for releasing. As a land owner in Texas and having been a manager of hunting lands as large as 3,700 acres in Texas I can see many changes in todays thinking. Much like, a few years ago you might have been told to take all spikes, where today, it is recommended not to take spikes and in fact may be your Trophy Buck in 3 or 4 years. Me, I am reading and attending seminars and watching. I might compare it to a bass pond where you can catch numbers of fish or maybe have an opportunity to see one larger fish. And like you Enjoying.

Tracy
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 05:39 PM
The regulations reflect the best biology and the input from the most engaged sportsmen. That is why they allow a liberal doe take and very limited antlered deer take. Speculation and anecdotes abound. When the science changes, please point me to the review papers in scientific journals that reflect this change. I see this kind of anti-science mumbo jumbo used to justify behavior in all disciplines, from medicine to agriculture; Just add doubt and then proceed to do whatever fits your ideology or is simply easy. Shooting whatever walks by is legal, but the science is not controversial among scientists. Unlike your private pond, your deer hunting behavior affects others. You are free to do whatever is legal, but I will call you on justifying it based on murky science, Just keep your BG out of my private SMB pond!
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 06:12 PM
Tracy, the 18 month old deal is not my observation ON MY PLACE. The Mamas on my place are more interested in finding a boy friend than taking care of the kids. However, I have seen different age classes of does do things differently.

A friend has a weekend place on Possum Kingdom Lake. It is loaded with yard deer and no hunting. They are all but tame and he hand feeds corn in his yard. He tells me that some does keep them for a longer time but about 50% breed every year. That can only mean that those that keep them around don't go into estrus on an annual basis. I asked him which age classes had twins. He said that the first year does had singles and older does often twins. However he said none of "his" does seem to have twins on a consistent basis. But he isn't sure whether it could be to fawn mortality.

Due to 5 years of drought and seriously declining deer population we aren't shooting does this year. That's convenient because we have another year of heavy acorn drop and don't see that many deer. Recent rains have brought up a lot of wild rye. The 4 months of drought kept me from planting wheat and, with the abundance of rye as natural browse they would have ignored it. According to game cams, hogs are getting the corn at night. I have Kids filling feeders today and told them to only feed in the morning.
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 10:36 PM
Population in our area. MPP asking for more to be taken.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 10:57 PM
Are you suggesting that harvesting young bucks is effective at reducing the deer population? BTW - I took a lot of young bucks when I started out hunting in my 30s. That was all I could get consistently.

Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/06/15 11:15 PM
Around here it was "if it's brown it's down" and that led to no mature bucks. Now with the new 13" inside rule that will get the bucks to 2-1/2- 3-1/2 year old . But then they allowed a spike or one side unbranched, so that took out more bucks that were to young- to reach potential. Then you can't kill does except during bow season . We wound up with a 15-20 doe to buck ratio leading to many does not being bred. We got started a game management program going to harvest does only this year to allow the buck ratio to get closer to normal 1-2 to 1 doe to buck ratio..... We will see
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 09:31 AM
Some general guidance from a 2011 book on the subject:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...p;q&f=false
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 11:38 AM
RAh, I ment no harm, just wonderering about different thoughts on different areas, and yes it is done different ways based on the rules and laws in that area. That's all.

Tracy
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 11:49 AM
Looks like a pretty interesting book. I have Krohls book but believe it to be dated with conclusions that can only be drawn from huge South Texas ranches.

The wildcard in quality deer management can be size of property. I can do my best on my 133 acre place but have no control on the places around me. Not a lot of my neighbors hunt, some are absentee land owners, and I have no idea what happens nest door or elsewhere. Some of the neighbors have "ranchettes" and some thousands of acres. Since there are darn few cows left in Texas(again 5 years of drought) the deer ought to be thriving but driving local back roads hasn't shown me a the numbers that I used to see. And then, due to mucho rain we have had 2 years of massive acorn crops and wild winter rye. The deer just don't have to travel anywhere to feed. But, they will enter winter in better shape. I like that idea but hunting and observing wildlife can be pretty boring.

That drought also took a toll on other wildlife. We used to be loaded with possums, armadillos, coons, bobcats etc. Not so now to the same extent and even hearing coyotes is a treat. I am declaring war on neighbors dogs.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 11:57 AM
No problem. We should all feel free to express our opinions. One quote from the book chapter link above:

"The primary reason large-antlered are not harvested in other regions of the United States is that hunters harvest too many young bucks; deer management is less complex than many wish to believe."
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 12:24 PM
Dave, I hear ya, management by your personal experience, and with the hogs, we no longer use spin feeders and use gravity feeders that keep the corn off the ground. It seams to reduce the number of hogs at the place. it does not mean they can't get to the corn but it may make it harder for them to get. I do have a video of a hog hitting the legs of the feeders to shake out some small amount of corn. And Pat, it sounds like your County has the same rule and regs as my county. Texas Parks and Wildlife does a pretty good job, I think. Here on the E. Texas border where it borders Louisiana the deer laws like many laws are different. Caddo Parish La. borders Harrison Co. Texas. Caddo Parish has a 6 doe to two buck and Harrison Co has 2 doe and 2 bucks. Different strokes for different folks. State wildlife managements from different states see things different. My son hunts both places.

Tacy
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Are you suggesting that harvesting young bucks is effective at reducing the deer population? BTW - I took a lot of young bucks when I started out hunting in my 30s. That was all I could get consistently.



No I am not suggesting to take the young bucks but it is very difficult to see the buttons.

This year we (15 guys and tags) took 10. Of the 10 there was one 10 point, one 6 point, one button buck, 3 mature does and 4 yearling does. We did let two nice bucks pass later in the week. One 4-6 point and one really big one hard to guess at his rack. This group of ten will make nice eating this winter. Our record with our group of 15 has been 12 deer. All tags are bought and paid for before the hunt about $65 each.

These 10 were harvested in about 10,000 acre area around our farm. We have summer animals but when it gets cool they heard up and head to the valleys. So mild this year they were all spread out in the 10,000 acres still from the rut.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 12:52 PM
I still have a hard time calling it "deer management". At least from a private, landowner's perspective. From the state's point of view, I certainly get where regulations and rules can have an impact, but the notion of an individual improving the herd to any appreciable degree ,while simultaneously expecting to be the hunter able to reap the benefits of his/her actions, seems pretty far fetched. Possible maybe, but certainly far from a sure thing.

And once again, when practiced by an individual, is it truly management benefitting the herd as a whole, or is it simply management intended to produce trophy bucks, as well as an attempt to encourage those same bucks to stay put, and not wander as much?

In Indiana, the state considers a 6" BG to be harvestable and acceptable. Obviously they are not concerned with trophy production, but rather overall population. Does the state manage for trophy deer, or is it just population numbers, like those bluegills?

If that be the case, then wouldn't an individual implementing a management program of his/her own be setting themselves up for disappointment, in light of the fact that state rules and regs may actually be detrimental to their own plans?
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 01:12 PM
sparkie, you have to see it to believe it when it comes to small property management. Not perfect by any means. I think at my place poachers are more detrimental than public hunting. But, in Texas there are some pretty large low fence properties. Many of them are 3,000 acres or more. I have hunted some of those of places. I do see many a high fence places of that size and some with larger acreage, and have hunted on a couple of those. High fence is more management than I would want, to much work and cost to those. And my place is to small for high fence, since it is recommended for no less than 400 acres.

Tracy
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 03:35 PM
Tony, a small landowner can improve the herd. Now what your definition of improvement is, that's another story. If I help the deer get through a hard winter, help some deer survive that might not make it, help the deer fawns avoid coyote predation, that's what I consider improving the herd. Habitat improvement is the biggest thing that I can do to help.

Does it benefit me as a hunter? Of course. Am I doing it to increase the bucks horn zize? No. I am doing it to make it easier for me to put a couple deer in the freezer so don't have to buy beef all year long.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 03:52 PM
Tony, you're right in a lot of ways. I want to get a big buck in the same way that I want to catch a trophy fish. But, it virtually never happens. I think I'm trying to do my part but I very seldom reap the benefits. One of the goals is also to eliminate sub standard deer and encourage better genetics. That also means to manage and TRY to match density to forage availability. Mama Nature tosses a lot of curve balls and is a cruel Manager.

By the end of the rut a lot of bigger bucks enter Winter in pretty poor shape and sometimes don't survive no matter what we do. This is the time that they are succeptible to predation by predators like coyotes. The predators though, IMO, also play a part in regulating the density. How bad is that? I don't really know.

I think next year I'll start protein feeding and see what happens.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 04:06 PM
"I can 'splain it to you, but I can't un'erstand it for you." - Molly Ivins


https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...p;q&f=false

Therer are many, many examples of improving the herd on low-fence properties like mine (including my experience). As I mentioned earlier, some neighbors have also come on board.
Posted By: bowfishersmith Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 05:19 PM
My 12 and 14 year old boys went out this weekend with their electronic game caller and shot these two female cats within 10 minutes of each other. This will save countless deer, turkeys, rabbits and quail. Wildlife management at its best.

Attached picture bobcat cole holding.PNG
Attached picture bobcat rider and cole.jpg
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 07:39 PM
What weapon?
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 08:34 PM
What call brings in a bobcat?

JKB, do they even allow bobcat hunting in Michigan?
Posted By: bowfishersmith Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 08:40 PM
They were using a 22-250 and a 243. 243 did a little damage to the pelt but 22-250 did none. They were using an electronic game caller that sounded like a cotton tail rabbit in distress. There is a fur bearer season in Missouri. We will be mounting both of these for the boys.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 08:56 PM
I absolutely believe that the size of your parcel of land has a direct bearing as to the effectiveness of your "management" strategy. Also agree that the more neighbors you get on board, the better your chances of reaping the benefits of what you're trying to sow.

Clarification someone? Differentiate between herd improvement and population expansion? Scott's program sounded to me like a plan to increase their numbers, not so much improve overall health.

And I agree with Dave as to predators having a vital role to play. We all know that nature does what she thinks is best, if left to her own devices. How do we know that those bobcats didn't have a vital role to play in curbing a population or two that needed curtailing? Man steps in and alters the balance yet again?

"Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary" Albert Einstein.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 10:21 PM
Herd size optimization for herd improvement must be balanced with available habitat and can be judged by the condition of the deer (and adjusted likewise up or down). Parcel size is not as important to successful herd management as the availability of food and cover as it relates to giving the herd no reason to leave the parcel. Your belief that "nature knows best" is ideology, not science. Nature can be very cruel and knows nothing - it just is. The luxury of the "nature know best" religion is possible as a direct result of man being able to alter "what nature wants". Otherwise folks would be too busy trying to survive to ponder such things.
Posted By: Bing Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 10:26 PM
Nice !!!
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 11:45 PM
Perfect!
Posted By: FINnFUR Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/07/15 11:47 PM
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .

We have limited acreage and I consider the deer herd although wild to be part of my farm crop. Jut like the garden I fertilize and harvest I grow forage for deer which we harvest. We harvest only two a year making sure to leave seed for next year.

Its a sustaining environment for us and the deer. We eliminate the predators just like other predators do in the wild to each other.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 12:12 AM
So what size is your property RAH, and how many deer of a condition acceptable to you reside on it full time, year-round? If it truly can be reduced to mathematics, then we should be able to calculate just where your management strategy needs tweaking, whether in adjustments made to cover, forage, and or numbers of deer. I can do that fairly well with the fish in my ponds, after all. If you're not killing the numbers of trophy deer you desire, it would seem there has been a error in your strategy someplace. To what area do you assign the failure?

As far as my supposed belief that nature knows best, I wouldn't be raising bluegills to the size I am if I were content to sit back and watch nature turn my ponds into shallow swamps full of stunted lepomids. I do recognize nature's ability to adjust the population to suit conditions, however.

"An experiment is a question which science poses to Nature, and a measurement is the recording of Nature’s answer." (Still trying to remember who said that...sorry!)

Got it.... Max Planck, theoretical physicist.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 12:22 AM
Originally Posted By: FINnFUR
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .



I understand. But my question is: Is that how it's supposed to be? if those predators weren't killing 70% of the fawns, would the deer become overpopulated? Nature is harsh after all, per RAH. But isn't this just a culling? And if we shoot the bobcats and the coyotes, would the deer population get out of control, just like removing too many LMB from a bluegill pond?
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 12:43 AM
Originally Posted By: FINnFUR
Controlled studies have show that Coyote predation takes up to 70% of the fawn crop each year. I have seen trail pics of Bobtail carrying day old fawns by their throat .

We have limited acreage and I consider the deer herd although wild to be part of my farm crop. Jut like the garden I fertilize and harvest I grow forage for deer which we harvest. We harvest only two a year making sure to leave seed for next year.

Its a sustaining environment for us and the deer. We eliminate the predators just like other predators do in the wild to each other.


At the farm it really irritates me to see a doe and new fawn walk past my game camera then 45 minutes later 3 coyotes pass the camera going the same direction......nose to the ground.

Think I am going to see if the goberment trappers still use the M44 in my area.

Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 01:25 AM
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.
Posted By: gully washer Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 02:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.
Good stuff, Bill......

My daddy taught me a long time ago to never ever kill anything that I wasn't gonna' eat..... "Every living creature has a purpose in this world son, and no man nor a boy with a BB-gun has any business playing god."

Plucking and cleaning that Black Grackle Bird really grossed me out. Luckily my mom got home before he made me cook it and eat it.
Posted By: esshup Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 05:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Just another perspective from perhaps a coyote's view,...the only creature he know's of that kills for fun is man and man is willing to kill him with extreme prejudice, when he is killing only enough of the weakest to feed his family, to protect man's fun. If he hunts creatures man hates like feral hogs or ground hogs, if man sees him he still kills him because it's fun. He does not understand. No matter what he hunts to feed his family, man kills him.


Not quiet 100% true. Many predators will kill more prey at one time than they can eat, even over the period of a few days. Wolves, feral/stray dogs, mink/weasels are the few that come to mind immediately. Also, just because an animal isn't killed, doesn't mean that it isn't stressed and possibly could lose it's fetus, or not make it through a hard winter. Also, if the prey animal escapes, it might have injuries that affect it later on. Same as fish in a pond dying from stress. Do the predators kill more than they can eat at once for fun? I can't answer that.

Do I hunt for fun? Well, I wouldn't call it that. I'm not laughing after I pull the trigger. Do I eat everything that I kill? Nope. I kill woodchucks because their digging under my barn will compromise the barn. I kill starlings and sparrows because they are preventing Purple Martins from using the martin house. I kill mice because they are in my buildings and sometimes in my house. About everything else goes in the freezer....... Coyotes? Haven't tasted one. Neither have I tasted a skunk. But, I'm like Catmandoo - about everything else has had a fork stuck in it, at least once.

As for letting nature take care of the prey animals, even if man were to stop hunting completely, I don't think that would ever happen. I take that back, that WOULD happen, but the outcome wouldn't be pretty. There are boom and bust cycles of Hares and Lynx, Fox and Lemmings, etc., without any intervention from man at all.

Man has altered the environment so much that the habitat for the different animals has changed and will never be reversed unless man vacates this planet. Whitetail deer, Rocky Mountain Elk, American Bison, Roosevelt Elk are a few of the top end prey that has been influenced by man altering the habitat.

Predators need to be controlled, or man just has to live with the consequences. Coyotes in California eating pets. Wolves killing and eating dogs. Mt. Lions, wolves and bears eating livestock. Mink, weasels, fox, raccoons, opossums, skunks killing and eating chickens/ducks. The list goes on and on.

Fox were the apex predator in the Midwest in the 50's, '60's and early '70's. There weren't many deer because of overhunting and habitat wasn't conductive to deer populations. Which was the major cause of low deer numbers? Good question, and I don't have an answer. Coyotes moved in when the deer population started to climb, and displaced both Red and Grey Fox. In areas where wolves are now common, they are displacing the coyotes.

Coyotes are very adaptable, and can live and flourish in close proximity to humans. Wolves on the other hand cannot. So, wolves controlling coyotes near populated areas just won't happen.

Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Clarification someone? Differentiate between herd improvement and population expansion? Scott's program sounded to me like a plan to increase their numbers, not so much improve overall health.


Herd improvement could be the buck to doe ratio. Or managing (in a high fenced environment) for large antlers. If you increase the herd health, the numbers WILL increase, because does will have multiple births. If predators are managed, then the increased births will grow to adults. The State will issue more deer licenses or up the bag limit. All wildlife will benefit, not just the deer because of the $$ put into the pot from the funds generated by the Pittman-Robertson Act. Yes, that also is funded by fishing monies. But, I'd like to see a breakdown on just how much each outdoor sport contributes, and where the $$ goes. I'd also like to see how much $$ is contributed to wildlife by non hunting and fishing people. i.e. people that go out nature watching or bird watching, or just utilize the National/Regional/State Parks.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 10:05 AM
One can argue that nothing that an animal does is for fun. Humans created the concept of fun, but most that have spent much time watching different predators hunt might perceive that indeed they do enjoy it. They even incorporate hunting behaviors in their play (play is another term some also reserve for humans). Whether it is a coyote, bobcat, or a human hunter, removing more bucks than does decreases the competition among bucks and reduces the pressure for the most "fit" bucks to reproduce more than the "unfit" bucks. Part of fitness is the ability to carry around a big set of antlers and use them to fend off other bucks. My property is over 100 acres, most in wildlife habitat that we created over the last 25 years. The last 10 years have produced mature bucks (3.5+yr). The herd is significantly smaller than the is needed to produce very very healthy animals because enough hunters in my area remove more bucks (mostly yearlings) than does. As a result, I have removed a lot of does (within legal limits). And when that is not enough, I invite a friend to help. Very few if any deer spend 100% of their time on my land, but a lot of deer spend a lot of time on it. Its all about probabilities, not absolutes. Some bucks are completely nocturnal. As far as I know, the birth ratio of males to females is 1:1. Predator losses are about 1:1. Buck losses to rut stress and hunting are what skew the sex ratio. Hunting practices can be modified to affect that ratio. Managing what can be controlled is all one can do, and it does work. BTW- lower densities also help prevent disease epidemics.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 10:58 AM
Possum Kingdom Lake State Park, about 75 or so miles West of Fort Worth, had a thriving, actually huge, deer herd. No hunting in those days on State lands. And then one of our normal, long term, droughts hit. Emaciated herds were the norm. You could walk around and find quite a few corpses. People were feeding corn and hay. They ate it but didn't get the right nutrition. This was about 50+ years ago before wildlife management emerged.

Not a lot different that a pond that doesn't get proper management.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 11:16 AM
It is a common practice to rationalize not doing what can be done, by listing all the things that cannot be done. We see it in all facets of life to justify inaction or continued action that is less than helpful (myself included).
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 03:00 PM
Quote:
As for letting nature take care of the prey animals, even if man were to stop hunting completely, I don't think that would ever happen. I take that back, that WOULD happen, but the outcome wouldn't be pretty. There are boom and bust cycles of Hares and Lynx, Fox and Lemmings, etc., without any intervention from man at all.


We have a very large ranch in west Texas that almost never gets hunted and I have seen the amazing boom and bust cycles you refer to. When the rains return whitetail and mule deer numbers go up. Also the rodent population explodes. Pack rats, prairie dogs, rabbits and hairs numbers skyrocket as do game birds like quail and dove. With that the predator numbers go up. Ground owls, hawks, Mexican eagles, coyotes, bobcat, cougar and rattle snake numbers increase.

And then the crash. The "black plague"(yes, that BP) hits the rodents reducing numbers by 80-90% off their highs. This affects the predators that starve or turn more of their attention to harder to catch prey like the deer.

I have witnessed this cycle going from very abundant(extreme) populations of animals to an almost barren landscape.

If we were able to intervene and control/flatten the swings up and down the animal population would benefit greatly.

Posted By: ewest Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 03:27 PM
RAH said - BTW- lower densities also help prevent disease epidemics.


I have personal experience with this having seen the results of to little take (predators and humans)and the resulting disease. It is far worse than you can imagine to deal with.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 03:27 PM
We have not had such climate fluctuation in central Indiana during my experience. Our droughts are far less severe. This does allow us more control due to the more stable environment. It helps that we have a couple streams, and have added 2 ponds and 5 wetlands. We still have the bunny and raccoon disease cycles though.
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 03:52 PM
I can tell you guys that with out hunt we saw and chased 23 coyotes out and 15 deer all in the same week.

If you have wild house cats around the population of coyotes is very low. They will take and eat house/barn cats all the time.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 04:09 PM
Your coyotes must be larger or a lot hungrier than those on our place, or else our cats are tougher. We have lost a couple over 25 years, but most coyotes in our neck of the woods won't chance an injury tangling with a cat. Now killing small dogs is a different story. We have a lot of coyotes! I do think they grow larger up there.
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 04:57 PM
Originally Posted By: RAH
Your coyotes must be larger or a lot hungrier than those on our place, or else our cats are tougher. We have lost a couple over 25 years, but most coyotes in our neck of the woods won't chance an injury tangling with a cat. Now killing small dogs is a different story. We have a lot of coyotes! I do think they grow larger up there.


I think there is getting to be some dog in them. Not sure if you seen this picture of one we came across stuck in the fence. three of us got him out. He still wanted to bite the he!! out of us.

The boy got one last winter after we skinned him out he was 6 foot 1" nose to tip of tale.

Cheers Don.

Attached picture IMG_0109.jpg
Posted By: RAH Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/08/15 06:34 PM
I think that in the NE USA there is some work showing coy/wolves account for the large size. Not sure about your area.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 01:39 PM
I sat on a hill a few months back , looking down a pasture road that runs along the side of the pond. With a 243 in hand waiting on a yote to show up, when I see through the scope, what first looked to be a large dog, not looking like a yote at first glance, I continued to watch as he came toward me. When I did come to realize he was a yote, he side stepped into the brush. Not allowing me to take the shot. My point here is I swear he had some dog genetics or so it seamed. And guys, I have eaten coon and possum, its better than you might think, in fact it was pretty good eating. smile Coons will also kill and eat deer fawns. Tbar, when I managed the 3,700 acre place (7 years) in W. Texas, the quail populations varied greatly each yr due to the spring rains, as Dave and You described.

Tracy
Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 02:00 PM
Tracy have you ever really seen a racoon take deer? I can see them scavenging a carcass but never taking one down. We would take any where from 200-300 racoon a year for their fur when the prices were over $25 each. Now at $15 each not really worth the time.

If you see any black or white in the coyotes there is some dog in there. The hard one to pick out is if there is any Shepherd in them. Then you need to look close at their muzzle length and width.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 02:09 PM
DonoBBD, No I have not seen it happen but it has been reported that a coon will take a small deer fawn(guessing the fawn is just a few days old) sorry, but I can't remember where I read it most recently. But after seeing some pretty big coons standing up on their back legs, some are pretty big. and when scoping out that yote he looked like almost having a real dark mane, which is what caused me to take too long of a look, which let him slide away.

Tracy
Posted By: TGW1 Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 02:17 PM
DonoBBD, Coon size reminds me of a story my son told a few yrs back. He was walking to his tree stand and was walking toward a deer feeder in the early morning hrs. Still dark but with a light. as he walked up to the feeder, he was meet by what he described as a REALLY BIG COON that stood on his back legs, Showing his teeth and hissing at my 32 yr old son. He said it scared the carp out of him lol smile

Tracy
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 02:49 PM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Tbar, when I managed the 3,700 acre place (7 years) in W. Texas, the quail populations varied greatly each yr due to the spring rains, as Dave and You described.

Tracy



The year this happened was 2006 or 2007. A small covey of Blues was 50 birds and a large covey was 100 birds. They came up in big dark clouds.....it was amazing. When we would shoot at quail rabbits would explode in every direction 5 - 10 at a time. There seemed like a cottontail or jack rabbit under every bush and I have a picture of my friend reaching down and picking up a live rabbit(They were seriously competing with the cows for grass). My friends wife liked to eat cottontails so he walked outside of camp and shot 9 in a ~ 10 minute hunt..... There were so many prairie dogs it wasn't even sporting to shoot them they let you get so close. We turned an 8 year old boy loose with a single shot .22 and he had hours of fun. The mule deer were not afraid of us(7 days out of season). They would come in and water at a pool 50 yards from our camp and would walk(not run) 75-100 yards ahead of our noisy jeep driving through the pastures. Your not going to believe this but I actually shot and killed two bobcats with one 12ga shell a 1/2 mile from camp. A HUGH animal population EXPLOSION followed by a CRASH to near zero in following years. I have lots of pictures.








Posted By: DonoBBD Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/09/15 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
DonoBBD, Coon size reminds me of a story my son told a few yrs back. He was walking to his tree stand and was walking toward a deer feeder in the early morning hrs. Still dark but with a light. as he walked up to the feeder, he was meet by what he described as a REALLY BIG COON that stood on his back legs, Showing his teeth and hissing at my 32 yr old son. He said it scared the carp out of him lol smile

Tracy



Ya corn deer feeders tend to feed more racoon than deer. The biggest racoon we have ever taken over many many years was 65#'s and that is a very big big coon. Dad had to put a 10" extension on the stretcher to dry out the hide. I bet I have an old picture some where of it. So old I was 4 years old in the picture and just turned 43 today. Wheres the time go.

Cheers Don.
Posted By: Tbar Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/19/15 10:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Tbar
The year this happened was 2006 or 2007. A small covey of Blues was 50 birds and a large covey was 100 birds. They came up in big dark clouds.....it was amazing. When we would shoot at quail rabbits would explode in every direction 5 - 10 at a time. There seemed like a cottontail or jack rabbit under every bush and I have a picture of my friend reaching down and picking up a live rabbit(They were seriously competing with the cows for grass). My friends wife liked to eat cottontails so he walked outside of camp and shot 9 in a ~ 10 minute hunt..... There were so many prairie dogs it wasn't even sporting to shoot them they let you get so close. We turned an 8 year old boy loose with a single shot .22 and he had hours of fun. The mule deer were not afraid of us(7 days out of season). They would come in and water at a pool 50 yards from our camp and would walk(not run) 75-100 yards ahead of our noisy jeep driving through the pastures. Your not going to believe this but I actually shot and killed two bobcats with one 12ga shell a 1/2 mile from camp. A HUGH animal population EXPLOSION followed by a CRASH to near zero in following years. I have lots of pictures.



Looks like we are on the upswing again(date is wrong on the camera). Picture was taken after Thanksgiving.

Quail waiting for the feeder to go off.....



Rabbit numbers going up......

Posted By: Bill D. Re: Hunting 2015/2016 - 12/19/15 11:00 PM
Wow!!!!!
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