... and I am not looking forward to it!

They do have a much larger unit at the hospital than before, but not much encouraged about that.

ER Doc filled me in on tumors and cancer. My doc want's to know what is really going on.

Anyone ever have an MRI for Cancer?

Noisy inside and no fun if you're claustropobic, but otherwse painless.

One of my customers invented it. Or so says the bait and tackle store where he drops off the fish he wants me to mount. Needless to say the guy is rolling in dough.

Hope you get a good outcome and if anything it's benign. It would scare the hell out of me to have the possibility no matter how remote.

My family will pray for you. Keep us posted!

Cecil,

Get his name, I know two of the guys that were on the original team back when it was called nuclear magnetic spin resonance. Those guys were way ahead of their time. And the tech came from a whole different field.

About the process, Cecil is right, a bit noisy and painless. If you are claustrophobic, try an eye shade or close your eyes. Think good thoughts about wide open spaces.

Praying for the best, never had it, don't want it, but I know several who have and with today's understandings and treatments, your odds have never been better.

Take care Buddy! I hope for a great outcome as well. I have had 4 MRIs. My advice.....Keep yer eyes closed and country music on the head phones!

Bob Conner. Main home is in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. Has a place on Snow Lake, Fremont, Indiana.

Is he one of them?

My Wife had several when a softball size brain tumor was discovered. The imagery these days is astoundingly clear and accurate...near photo quality.

I had one recently. No cancer found.

Sending prayers your way, JKB!

I had an MRI performed this year to check my pituitary. Since the scan was focused on my brain, just my head was inside the machine. The only peculiar part was the skull cradle intended to hold your head still. They forgot to turn on the music, so I got to listen to the machine the whole time. Nothing to it.

JKB, thinking about you and hoping for the best. 10 days is a long time to wait for a MRI. If they really felt it was cancer I'm sure you could get on a waiting list or go some place in the middle of the night. There is an open MRI unit outside my window at work here and there are some MRI machines that run around the clock.

I agree with those above about trying to put yourself in another place in your mind. Although I've never been claustrophobic, if you stare at the steel plate that is about 3" above your nose you start thinking about the times when you were young and you tried to shimmy through a long culvert and started to wonder if you were going to make it to the other side or get stuck inside. It is best to relax, use music if that helps, keep your eyes closed and pretend the sky is far above you, the wind is blowing, etc.

Good luck JKB.
Prayers are coming your way.



canyoncreek I have yet to have my first MRI, but I am pretty claustrophobic. Do you know if they will allow you to take Xanax before an MRI? I would think Xanax would really help in that situation.

I don't remember if it was attached to the fixture that went around my head, or to the machine itself, but there was a small mirror right above my face, angled so that it provided a view of the wall behind the MRI machine. That wall had a window, so even though I was facing straight up I could use the mirror and watch the parking lot....see cars coming and going, people moving, etc. I don't mind tight spaces myself, but I could see where having that might help some people deal with the procedure.

I liked listening to the machine, and feeling the mechanism moving around me.

Mark, Xanax or Valium are the MRI drugs of choice. MRI's around the head may require a cage, so they are claustrophobic.

JKB, hope all goes well.

Good to hear Al....when and if I get my first MRI I will need one or two!

Phil- Thinking about you here in MN!

Painless with a little noise like others stated. I didn't get the music option. Closed my eyes and found my happy place.

Hoping the results are good you controls freak ...Jeff

Damn I leave for a little bit and you start to fall apart!! Surely it is just a case of oldashelliosis. Sending some prayers!

remember to remove any metal from under your flesh (even old shards of metal, unexploded ordinance, shrapnel etc) I have too many stories of oxygen tanks from adjacent rooms sucking in and exploding in the magnet (and also other large metallic objects) The techs are good and will help you through it.

Even non-ferrous metals?

have to have magnetic 'pull' Although when they do screening CT scan of the eyes, of they see anything 'metallic' they don't take any chances and have to take precautions. I don't understand how they decide but some metal is OK if it has been in the tissues for a certain amount of time. Maybe it gets scarred in enough that it can't zing out, but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

I know titanium prosthetic parts (hips, knees) are fine. Pacemakers are a big no no (till they get MRI safe pacers soon) The rest, up to the radiology team.

Straight ahead, JKB!

Nothing to it but to do it.

Yeah I was in one of the bigger ones 2 years ago for when I had to have 8 inches of my lower intestine removed. It's was by far the easiest part of my 22 day stay that's for sure!

Good Luck man keep us posted.....

RC

Bummer. I've had three MRIs over the years. Mine were for back problems. They had me so drugged for one of them, I barely remember anything about about it. The other two were actually kind of relaxing. I wore a set of headphones with soothing music playing. It was a like doing the deep relaxation at the end of a yoga session.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Have had a couple. No big deal just a little confining. Wishing you the best with the results.

Agree, there isn't anything to worry about with getting an MRI. I thought there was plenty of room, and felt comfortable even when fitted with a skull cage for a brain scan. It just cleared the tip of the nose.

Don't sweat it, for a mechanically/technically minded individual it's merely a chance to experience and ponder the inner workings of an unfamiliar piece of equipment.

I have had three. The best/easiest one I had the tech stayed in the room with me and did it in 6 stages. She would say this one will take 5 minutes or this one will take 8 minutes so I knew what to expect. She even gave me a button to push if I needed a break.

The worst was the young tech loaded me in he machine(knee MRI), went to another room for lunch not telling me that this was an old unit and it would take 40 minutes. I had a leg cramp and couldn't get his attention so finallyI reached up and hit the big red stop button. That brought him running and I reamed him out all the way out the door and into the waiting room.

Thanks Guy's - Much Appreciated!!!

Yeah, I was reading MRI horror stories on the www and got a tad concerned, so thought I would ask.

If anyone remembers that twister movie where the two main characters ended up in a barn with all that clanging stuff for cutting and chopping stuff up, that buzzed my bean more than once! Talk about the proverbial sitting duck in an MRI with that stuff around!!

Doc's are very difficult to find up here and am lucky to be this far advanced in the process. He want's to be thorough so the tube ride is from the neck down and ending somewhere before my knees.

Gal on the phone with the 600 questions said the new one is much larger and faster so it should only take about 40 minutes to do my trip. She said I'll have a panic button inside and I was joking with her if she would give me the wiring diagrams to see what that button actually does, and if it don't do what I want it to do, can I rewire it

Getting orbital X-Rays to see if I'm MRI compatible first.

Good luck amigo, sending you mega positive and healthy vibes.

I got an MRI to confirm my case of degenerative arthritis. Took 30 minutes and I was apparently asleep for 20 minutes of it. Found the loud noise kinda hypnotic and was out like a light.

I've been in the tube multiple times. The only thing I have a problem with is waiting for the results.

The costs go up when the procedure includes an MRI with contrast. they essentially do one scan as a baseline, bring you out and inject the dye, then run you back through again. That adds considerably to the price tag.

The stuff they used for the contrast made me feel warm, and it gave me a funny taste in my mouth, but there was still nothing to it. The panic button is SOP.

You'll do fine with the procedure, and I'm also wishing you nothing but healthy results.

JKB, I've had a few MRI's, one "with contrast". They are a bit noisy, but if you stay up late beforehand, like TJ said, they're a bit hypnotic and you can get some solid sleep. Tech complained I was snoring louder than the machine! Also, like Sparky said, the contrast chemical makes you feel a bit warm, but not at all unpleasant, just different.

We'll be sending positive vibes and prayers...you'll do fine with it all!

If you have the contrast procedure, they may bring you out and inject it manually, or hook you up to a pump that injects you when the time is right. Apparently, the pumps themselves are NOS units originally intended for hydraulic use in giant front end loaders, like you might expect to see in large, open pit mining operations. The one I was hooked to blew out a vein, requiring a visit from a couple techs and a manual injection in the other arm. No big deal.

Actually, I was hoping the combination of excess galadium and strong magnetic lines of force might endow me with some type of super power or extraordinary ability, but alas, I emerged more or less as normal as I was when I went in.

Geeze Spark, now you have me worried all over again.

I'd go with the less than normal there, T. But that's exactly why you're my bro!

When they set up the 'injection port' in your arm for the contrast fluid, a lot of males tend to pass out or go 'vegal' as the medical professionals call it.

I learned what the term meant when I came to. Apparently I was only passed out for a few seconds.

The nurse was looking at me saying "are you doing OK?" While I was feeling dizzy, I replied "I'm doing OK."

When I came to, I realized I was on my back and in a different part of the room.

Good times...

Freak.

Heck Sunil if ya woke up in the same room ya didn't have much of a trip. However not being able ta remember the 60s, yer excused.

Seeing as I was born in '69, I have a pretty solid alibi.

Then again...."I have no recollection of that, Senator."

Geez, I knew ya was a punk but that was the year they made me leave high school.

Don't take it personally, Bob, they make EVERYONE leave after six years, ready or not.

Sorry to hear of your travails, JKB. Do you know what the doc is looking for specifically, or is it more of a fishing expedition?

Let's face it Bob we're old! I was a freshman at age 12 the year Sunil was born!

Yep, and I was 26 yoa, one year out of the USAF, and restarting the 4 years of college that I had screwed up prior to the military time.

Yes Cecil I KNOW!!! Thank God for folks like DD, Catman, John Monroe and George. Those ol boys give me hope, coolness is still achievable.

Yep. They have a specific list, and suspect a tad bit of fishing as well. Just have to see what's up.

Make sure you don't have any flyfishing hooks in you from me thrashing around with that flyrod

Best wishes.

Oh, you missed me by at least 4' or so, but can't speak for the anchor cable, and I think you tagged yourself

It really was a fun time and want to do it again, except with Steelhead running.

That sucker does yank slivers out! When I got out of the rig, the one in my left middle finger was at the surface, easy to get at. I thought they would get ripped out and go flying or something like that. Told the tech gal that they should make a machine shop version

I guess not knowing what to expect is the greatest fear. This was a big bore Siemens only 5' lg. that was quite roomy.

Never had blood work done before so they ran the full gambit. I was shocked when the nurse called and said everything was normal or darn near perfect, except potassium was a tad high. Said, I've been eating some killer tater salad all week, so she said to cut back on that a bit.

Overall, I was really pleased with the hospital staff. Their professionalism and the genuine care they displayed was outstanding. I botched the first X-Ray by moving, but explained to the tech guy I'm new to this.

MRI results should be in a few days.

So far, it sounds good. That's great.

Cool as the other side of the pillow!

Great to read all went well and results are good so far!

Did you get to experience vein blow-out, or develop super-powers after the procedure?

I neglected to say I'm glad everything went well. Little envious of the high potassium level though. Mine runs low, and the muscle cramps are quite irritating.

Glad all went well !

Great to hear there's good news so far, Phil!

Sending good thoughts and prayers your way for normal results from the MRI!

Keith

Hope all turns out ok on the MRI. Normal bloodwork is certainly a good initial sign.

Are you on a diuretic, Sparkie?

Yep, darn hypertension!

Glad to hear, JKB!

Well Spark - If it's any consolation, I didn't LOOSE any Super Powers

It's really nice that the blood work turned out so well, but think the MRI will tell a different story. Really glad the PSA was normal, which was a big relief.

I'm a V8 veggie juice nut, maybe you should try that to increase your Potassium. I have to stay away from it for a while, but who will be the interim torch bearer to pay the mortgages of the folks that work at the V8 plant?

BTW: Sliver count, that I know of, ended up at 3.

"MOM" Cody keeps me well supplied with V8 Juice from his local Campbell's plant...

I'm afraid it won't be me carrying that torch. I can't stand V8 juice!

Yep Dave, that sucks!!

Doc was supposed to have everything today and I was anticipating a phone call... Didn't happen.

I've seen this from doctors also. It's the most important thing in the world to you right now but to the doctor? It's just part of a normal day. Good luck getting your results today.

Won't be today. I just called and my doc is out of the office till Sept 8th. They have the MRI stuff and the gal is going to see if some other doc will take a peek.

This just ain't going well.

Oh I don't think so!! I would be pissed off knowing I needed to see results of an MRI that I may need treatment on ASAP!!! And my doc is gone till Sept 8th.....

NOT!

RC

I know the Doc has a lot going on, but he needs to consider your anxiety, and
give you some info...

Sooo he told you he would call you with results on August 17th but he left town and now it won't be until September 8th???

Ah, yea think I would be making a scene.

Well, the gal called me back just a bit after I posted, but already hit the road, and I was slated for another doc to check things out while my doc is away, just that things weren't organized well enough when I called.

New doc (from a different location) got my file and promptly went thru it. Good news is they did not find anything they were looking for so the 3 nasty things (tumors, cancer and spinal degeneration) are eliminated MRI was clean as a whistle except it showed a bit of spinal arthritis, which this doc said could possibly be the culprit. I have an appointment with him next week to move forward and find out what's up.

Yeah, this stuff going thru your mind kinda mess ya up a bit, but am more relieved now that it may be something easier to fix.

Thanks a bunch for all your support, it is very much appreciated!!!

The hospital said the results would be to my doc by the 17th. Doc never gave notice of being away, but they had a plan as I later learned.

It really is difficult to find a doc around here. There was an insurance meeting at work last week and the boss brought up my situation of trying to find a doc for quite a few months now. He told everyone to just get it done and not wait till you need to see one.

Oh yeah, insurance meetings are always about your premiums and deductible being jacked higher.

Fantastic news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's super GREAT news Phil!....Enjoy the relief moment....Ok enough... Now get back to work you controls FREAK! Seriously... Congrat's my friend!

That's great news, Phil!

And of all people, doctors should know how unhealthy it is causing someone to worry!

Now ,,,, don't worry, be happy

Very good news, and happy for you JKB!

Now that it's all over, the boss wants to see you. It seems the amusement park is having trouble with their newest ride, The Ipecac Express. They advertise it as going from 0-60 mph in 2.4 seconds, and some geek with an app on his cellphone claims it's actually taking 2.46 seconds. Can't have that, what with all the lawsuits claiming false advertising these days. Run on over there and check things out, will you? No, we don't yet have the specs on the top secret power source for the ride, but better grab a dosimeter just to be safe.

Glad to hear it is nothing serious.

Yeah Spark, I checked it out. The big problem here is the guy who set up the wireless from the PLC to the Remote I/O didn't know anything about Fresnel Zones or LTE coexistence. Just because you can see the transmitter from the receiver doesn't mean you have line of sight. The structure is blocking about 40% of the elliptical Fresnel Zone and the guy picked 802.11n @ 2.4GHz bandwidth as well. Tsk tsk tsk. The geek really ain't a geek at all, just a guy with a 4G LTE cell phone. If he was a geek, he would know that his LTE could be stepping all over the communications and contributing to the problem. No doubt his app is dead accurate, but you combine the two, and that's why they are off a tad.

I quoted them wireless radios on a dedicated bandwidth that no one else in the world would have. Not effected by Fresnel Zones and coexist with LTE. They really didn't like the price tag at all. Just gonna have to live with it I guess.

These amusement park people can still advertise what they claim tho. It's essentially physics and mechanics as to how the rides will perform at any given moment/day.

Good job JKB!

And remember the company motto, regarding that suspect power source: "Sure, 1000 rad will kill you, but quitting before 950 rad is for sissies!"

I didn't see the power source as an issue, and it's at safe working levels. It really is a communication issue with some totally false signals and sometimes way too much latency between proper acknowledgements without chemical assistance.

Not thinking of this at the time. But I did an accurate timeline today of when this "mild" problem really started to suck and it was the following day after I had some AC current flowing thru me. Usually feel good after a zap, but this was brain fog city.

Seeing as they didn't find the "normal" causes of my left leg crapping out on me after about 15 minutes of standing or walking, I wonder if this could have some significance?

Those "make me a happy cucumber" pills are getting really old, and only take a half of one if I really need it.

I never did tell any of the doc's about this, but I'll mention it next week.

I'm telling you.....superpowers. That's how it always starts, with an unfortunate incident, followed by sickness, followed by "holy **** look what I can do"

It's the onset of superpowers.

All seriousness aside.....Important question....So does that left leg glow in the dark so you can see to go pee in the middle of the night without turning on the lights?

Congrats on the great news!!!

That would be handy!

I once found a pair of reading glasses that had an LED light on each side. Made it really handy to walk from the bed to the bathroom in the middle of the night without turning on a light or tripping over the dog! Only probem was I destroyed them accidentally like I normally do with my reading glasses.

Glad you got good news Phil. Cancer is scary stuff.

Thanks Cecil!!

Nice to know there isn't anything really nasty going on, but now I'm starting to get the bills for all this BS and finding out my insurance company has different plans on how to pay for all of this, namely me coughing it up while they sit on their ass and get fat on the weekly premiums that are deducted from my check.

It's even better when you're self-employed and get to foot the bill for the entire thing yourself, because the 800 bucks per month that you pay for health insurance doesn't even get you a reasonable deductible.

I'm for universal health care. Single payer. It's time.

A friend in Canada has no bill and no copay. And contrary to what you hear he says he gets good care and doesn't wait any longer than here for procedures. Just about every other developed country in the world has it except the U.S. The medical and pharmaceutical industry have a strong hold on our congress critters.

I hear ya! Fortunately for me I got on my wife's group plan where she works. Still not cheap!

My niece's daughter that got adopted into a doctor's family in appalachia of all places is on his fifth luxury car, a new monster size house and in ground pool in a gated community. Somebody's got to pay for it!

I'm glad some one else has enough sense to see it that way
You are totally right Cecil

Where do rich Canadians go for medical procedures? Google it...

Sean

Rich folks go where they want , the rest of us can't......

Since we are on the subject....when I get my EOB (Explanation of Benefits) from my insurance company, it has a column for what the doctor charged and another one showing the insurance negotiated rate. I recently got an EOB for some routine blood work I had done where the doctor's office submitted a claim of $370 for one test but the insurance company rate was $22. As I had not satisfied my deductible, I paid $22. If I could not afford insurance I would owe the doctor $370 for that test. Obviously, the doc's office was still making money at $22...and they wonder why people without insurance can't pay their bill? Wouldn't it be nice if the price was standardized so one price fits all???

Kinda strange that the insurance co. And not the doctor is making all the decisions and setting the price that they will pay lower than the actual cost of the services.....

I'm guessing the insurance company sets the price and the doc accepts it if they want to see patients carrying that insurance. The reason I say that the insurance company must set the price is I can't imagine the insurance folks negotiating with dang near every doc in the country! My thought is the doc must still be making money or they would not accept that insurance. I actually don't know. It is just something I've always wondered about.

The networks set the negotiated costs which the providers accept. However, the doctor charges $370, accepts the negotiated cost of $22 and the doctor writes off the $348 as a business loss.

So the doctor sees 20 patients per day, charges $7,400.00, accepts $880.00 and writes off $6,960.00 as a loss.

Multiplied by 52 weeks, 5 days per week (260 days) = $228,800 paid, $1,809,600 written off as a loss.

So I've been told, and if it's true, consider what the doctor's practice bills out daily. Then consider what the hospitals bill out daily. Then consider how much is written off as a business loss each year and how this might affect their tax rate and what they pay(?) in taxes.

Again, I don't know this as fact but it's what I've been told and it seems believable (I wanted to say logical?) to me.

I also have a client who's a radiologist, who told me monthly he earns $30k as a base salary, and averages $70k per month in bonuses from the hospital. I would be interested to know how those bonuses are figured!

I wonder if I'm too old to start med school?

PS - as a disclaimer, I have the utmost respect for all health care providers, what they do and the care they provide. But IMO affordable care it is not.

I don't understand this insurance stuff at all, but the gal at work said it's not what I think, so I'm bringing all this to her so she can enlighten me. The price for the tube ride has me a tad nervous.

Phil,

Don't let them railroad you into paying the full amount. It's a purposely inflated amount. They will negotiate, which should tell you something about how honest the fee is. If I did that with any of my customers I'd have the BBB camping on my doorstep.

My mother-in-law's bill for two weeks of out patient dialysis (6 sessions) was $999,99,09.00. I'm not making that up! If that isn't a number pulled out of someone's *** I don't know what is. Medicare agreed to pay $6000.00.

Btw Phil; it would be interesting to know if your doctor owns the MRI machine. If so he has an incentive to charge more. Sames goes with doctors that own the lab or are part owners of a lab that do blood testing etc.

And many people don't know that many oncology doctors share the profits in chemotherapy drugs. Kind of a conflict of interest don't you think?

Had an aunt that had an inoperable terminal brain tumor. 100 percent terminal. Guess what? The doctor convinced the gullible family to do the chemo. She died a miserable death with no dignity with nasty side effects from the chemo like a mouth full of thrush. One cold sore is enough. Can you imagine a mouth full? Karma is a bitch though. He got killed on his motorcycle just after she died.

I changed doctors because my doc was charging me close to $100.00 for a periodic blood test to monitor the effects of a cholestoreol drug I'm taking. Insurance covers 100 percent with my new doctor. What'd bet my last doctor has a financial interest in the lab?

Hey while I'm being cynical I'll throw this out: Most medical students go into the profession for the money they want to make. Definitely not altruism!

I think the medical profession is probably the same as a lot of other vocations. There are both good, and not so good practices represented in most every career one can choose. My GP retired so I am currently on the hunt for a new one, and I hope to be as satisfied with whomever the new doc is, as I was with the old one. I have nothing but the highest regard for my endocrinologist also.

Both doctors always display(ed) a genuine concern for my well being, and I am (was) comfortable placing myself under their care.

Cecil, did you see my post above JKB's about writing off the difference as a business loss?

Sure did! Just absolutely astounding isn't it?

Several monster hospitals here in Ft. Wayne are "non-profit.". Hmm... I wonder why that is? You can bet they still get their full salaries including the BOD's and CEO.

I'm on Medicare. At 72, I'm uninsurable by anyone else. The meds I can get keep shrinking. I get my meds statement monthly and find that I'm generally paying about 70+% of the cost. And, I'm paying over $100 per month in prescription premiums.

Fewer doctors are even taking medicare patients. And, after the first couple of visits to specialists, I'm turned over to Nurse Practicioners. That's OK, because most seem to know what they're doing.

Cecil, have ya noticed that one of the major hospitals add says at end of the commercials that the hosp is "partially physian" owned?

Didn't notice that Bob but it makes sense.

I suspect there is somewhat of a collusion between the healthcare, insurance, and pharmaceutical industries.

A few years ago, my 30 year old uninsured niece needed a CTscan, so she went to Mexico and had one done for $75.

I know another lady who went to Mexico for gastric bypass surgery. She said the entire package, including air travel, hospital and hotel stay, cost a fraction of what the procedure itself would have cost in the US......... She lost a ton of weight.

On a related note: I recently started watching season 1 of a pretty cool Cinemax series called "The Knick" The story is centered around a cocaine addicted cutting edge surgeon who is practicing in a struggling New York city hospital, circa 1900.............. It's a stark contrast to today's hospitals, to say the least.


Oh yeah, JKB. Glad your MRI was clear.

I had to buy some eye drops for cataracts surgery.
1 drop, 4 times a day for 3 days = 12 drops. Cost $142.

Yikes!!!

I never made it to the shop in time today to go over this with the gal at work. Maybe tomorrow.

Got another bill in the mail for $180.00 from another doc that I have never seen in my life. She took it upon herself to evaluate my MRI and give her opinion. My doc said with that evaluation I would be on the carving table. I didn't know she was sending a bill tho.

Turns out that this doc diagnosed my Mom and treated her for a number of months for pneumonia when Mom actually had lung cancer, and it was too late when she (doc) got her head out of her butt.

I'm doing a little bit of physical therapy, and that's cutting the edge off pretty decent. That gal at PT really knows what she is doing, but has me doing some weird stuff.

Fortunately, I'm the only one in the 40,000 sq-ft building when I practice her regiments, otherwise someone may think I may be a tad touched

Pretty much standard practice I think.

When I was in the hospital for one night a couple years back to have a plate screwed in my neck, the bill for the hospital portion of the stay was over $200k. That included charges from 4 doctors and a dietician I never saw. Apparently, if a doctor walks down the hall by your room, they can charge you? Good news is I had insurance and they had a negotiated rate for everything so the total $380k charge for the procedure and one night stay was reduced to $43K and my share was $1800. If I didn't have insurance, would the dietician be living in my house now?

Bottom line folks, IMHO the system is broken, lots of folks are getting rich and it ain't going to get better. My advice, if you can't really afford insurance, find a company willing to sell you a policy with a super high deductible at a low cost. At least you will only be paying the insurance negotiated rate instead of full price.

Finally something most can probably agree about.

Problem is, it defies a quick easy fix.

Single system/provider/payor? Got that, it's called the VA. Sure you want more of that?

Single payor? Got that, it's called Medicare, hasn't exactly stemmed the tide.

Modest attempt to get most people covered under the third party payor system we have? Got that, Affordable Healthcare Act, not exactly universally beloved, for many valid and some invalid reasons.

Any serious attempt to aggressively cut costs is going to have to involve limiting the amount of healthcare delivered. That's a simple fact that no politician can ever come out and say--it would be political suicide. There is a lot of room for cutting drug costs, physician salaries, perverse incentives, redundant and unnecessary tests and procedures....but the simple fact is that taking good care of people is extremely expensive and resource intensive, there just is no cheap way to do it. With the population aging, and technology advancing, this trend is not going to change direction anytime soon.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not advocating cutting back on care for anyone, but don't kid yourself about how easy it would be to fix the system we have.

And by the way, contractural write offs cannot be deducted by any small business, whether it be a doctor, dentist, attorney, or anyone else. System is broke, but it ain't THAT broke. There are some tricks that can be used by "Not For Profit" healthcare providers who use accrual basis accounting rather than cash accounting, however. And don't get me started on carried interest.......

Since people stated their opinions, I'll state mine as the worthless one it is;

I am not for any government healthcare at all.

Same old reason, that pesky Constitution. I don't care if this would be the one thing that the federal government did great, if costs were half of what we pay now, if cancer were cured, if smiles were on everybody's faces, universal healthcare is completely against the enumerated powers as described in Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution. We cannot keep breaking the damn law for convenience.

If your State wants to have universal health care, I have no issue with that, it IS Legal in that case.

If the federal government can get an amendment to the Constitution, that's great too. We would then have legal grounds for universal health care.

Do it right, I'd still disagree, but it would be legal and we would be holding true to our laws.

There is a reason that the leftist's in this country did not amend the Constitution for this ponzi health care scheme we now have, they did NOT have the votes to amend the Constitution.

JKB, as a fellow Michigander, I'm delighted to hear that your test came back cancer free! Isn't it great that such a test was developed by free men in a country founded by free men! God bless the USA!

I see problems in a lot of areas. I don't have a problem with Doctors earnings. They spent a LONG time educating themselves and it ain't cheap.

At some time in the future all medical professionals with be hospital employees.

I see we've pulled over the firetruck enroute to the house fire, just because it had a taillight out, yet again.


I also don't have a problem with medical professionals earning what they do. That's not to say that somewhere along the line things didn't go a little extreme, but like Dave said, "education isn't cheap". If you've spent exorbitant sums of money and many years of your life educating yourself in a particular field, and you go ahead into that field, then you deserve to see the fruits of your labor. That's how I believe it should be.

Where I have an issue, is with a system that places such an emphasis on an educational paper trail that it no longer matters where that trail originated, so long as it simply exists. Something's wrong there.

Actually, Dave said "ain't cheap"....

Or equipment mechanics.

JKB, glad to hear MRI showed no problems.
I am surprised when I see how some people are socialist when it comes to healthcare. America is where everyone has an equal opportunity to do what the want or be what they want. My GP family Doc, just paid off his student loan. He owed in excess of $300,000.00. He is around 35 yr's old. He works 24hr call including weekends and holidays. His days are long which includes office and hosp. patients. Being a Doc is not easy. His liability insurance cost are out of site. In my business my liability ins cost is around $5,000.00 per yr and I am betting his is 3 or 4 times that, if not more. I am not saying I like everything about our health care, my health care insurance cost me $9,600 per yr plus a $2500.00 deductible. Like I said I am not happy about the cost but like I said I am not a socialist, everybody has an equal opportunity here in the USA to be the best they can be.
it's the insurance companies that have the problem, not the Doc's. And the insurance co are in Kahoots with obmacare

Tracy

I've been self-employed well before Obamacare came on the scene, and my health insurance has always been sky high.

Dave,

No problem with the fact that they spend a lot of money on their educations and deserve a hefty compensation for their skills. And medical school is tough for even smart people Ive been told by folks that went there. (Although a state vet for the Indiana BOAH I know told me some of her friends that were't accepted to vet school made it to a medical school).

I have more of an issue with out of control hospitals and other health care corporations. And there is a difference between being sufficientky compensated and fleecing and gouging people.

My mother-in-law retired from a career in billing and coding. She turned in doctor in because he demanded she pad the bills. She also worked for a Catholic hospital that was anything but saintly.

The system will eventually implode on itself. It can't continue on the track it's on. Just not sure which will implode first: health care or outrageous college fees.

Regarding educational costs for becoming a MD.....medical school is free in Argentina, one only has to pay for the text books.

And hence, MD's make squat in Argentina.

Would I have a mole removed in Argentina? Hell no.

Regarding Canada, we have two offices there (one in Alberta and one in New Brunswick). Their system only works in the rural, less populated areas. In the more populated areas, you cannot get in to see a doctor without an extensive wait time, AND, most everyone in the populated areas has supplemental, paid insurance plans.

I've never heard of anyone going to Mexico (from the USA) to get any procedures done, but if so, so be it. I have heard of folks leaving the USA to get treatments using drugs that have not been approved by the FDA.

All sucessful governments are a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Social Security, medicare, and medicade are socialism. Try and take SS or medicare away from even the staunist conservative and you'll have a fight on your hands. Many elderly people would be absolutely SOL without the above.

The PPACA has been a lifeline for lots of poor AND middle class but it was a half ass measure because of the partisan opposition that refused to come up with something better.

My brother was a comptroller for 15 years with a degree from one of the best business colleges in the nation. After the economy tanked in 2008 he couldn't buy a job even sending out up to 100 resumes a week. One of my board of directors was in the same boat. Fortunately my brother published a book and sold about a 1000 copies to hold him over, and he worked at Walmart, but PPACA was a Godsend for him as he wouldn't have had healthcare without it. However it wasn't without issues as the insurance company tried their hardest to cancel his policy for nonpay when he had the cancelled checks to prove otherwise. It took some government interference to keep them honest.

Argentina? Comparing the US to Argentina Sunil? You know what a mess the economy is there right? They have one of the world's worst economies although I hear they are coming around finally.

And the Canadians I know have no issues with waiting times in Canada.

Cecil, regarding the comment about some students not making it into Veterinary, and then going into 'human' medicine, a close friend of mine who is a nurse anesthetist told me that when one takes their MCATS, there is only one group higher than that of brain surgery or cardio thoracic, and that is......Veterinary.

So, according to her, those who score the highest, have the option to go to Vet school.

Maybe Yolk Sac can verify that or not.

Cecil, I'm not comparing Argentina to anything. That country is a shining example of how socialism and liberal politics have destroyed what once used to be a vibrant economy.

I have an office in Buenos Aires and used to go there about four to five times a year.

All the example was showing is what you get from 'free' medical school.

anyone on PB ever actually take the MCAT?

"Is that smoke I see beginning to roll out from under the engine cowling??"

Better be looking for a flat spot to try and land, I'm betting we may need to set this thread down somewhere, soon.

I love your couching of the firetruck scenario, it's funny. We are not discussing if the firetruck has a license though. We are discussing if the firetruck can even exist.

On Conservatives not wanting social security gone, HERE I AM! I want it gone!

I will not steal from my children and I sure as heck do not want other free loaders stealing from my children.

fdr got social security through by actually adding supreme court justices to the bench. It, fdr, couldn't get the supreme court justices on the bench to agree with it that social security was Constitutional. When ss passed it was probably the biggest single blow to the Constitution in US history. It opened the flood gates for all the other ponzi schemes the left has installed. The left knew full well that once imbedded into our fabric, these schemes could not easily be removed. You have people actually counting on these schemes to live now and they aren't going to be easily convince to give up the benefit that their stolen money paid for.

Just a note to the mods, please note when the politics of this thread exposed itself. I know we don't like politics here, never understood why people shy away from the natural act of arguing, but when someone espouses that universal healthcare is a good thing it cannot be left to stand as if that's "normal". It is not normal to steal the wealth of another man and give it those who will not take care of themselves.

Yolk, thank you for dispelling that rumor/myth/tale although, does "small business" come into play at all on that?

Being a licensed insurance rep for over 28 years (although health insurance not being my forte) you can imagine the "flak" I've caught over high premiums on all lines of insurance and of late, the high cost of health insurance premiums. And although there was a law passed several years ago stating health insurers must spend at least 80% of premiums on health care, leaving them 20% to operate on (agent's commissions on health insurance went from 20-25% to 5%. And these are averages but they were drastically cut), their responsibility lies in paying the medical bills they're presented.

Here's one where I have a big problem.

My dad recently had a sinus operation in which there were 3 procedures performed, all relatively minor. Yet when reviewing the bill from the hospital I saw where they charged $900 for the operating room. TIMES 3!

They billed him for 3 operating room charges at $900 each when he never left the room! So seeing this as an error I called the insurer to be sure they were aware of it and wouldn't pay it. Yet, they said they had to pay it because of the way the hospital coded it. Calling the billing dept at the hospital was useless!

To me, this is just a small portion of a very large problem that's getting passed down to us, the insured!

Our premiums are going to continue to rise as long as this type of practice continues; to charge/overcharge/inflate medical bills, and worse, allowing the insurance companies to pay these amounts without scrutiny.

I'm all for affordable health care, but it won't be affordable until these charges become legitimate!

Or is it legitimate to see an operating room charge for each procedure done when you've never left the room? Or doctors walking by, popping their head in to see how you're doing, and charging for it.

This is why I too favor 'affordable health care' on a state level, not the federal govt as I think the people would at least have a little more of a voice (yes, I'm being naive).

Being a single person I'm paying $5k a year in premiums with a $6250 deductible. So I need to dish out over $11,000 before the insurer even kicks in!

For me personally this is not affordable.

"Tower, I've got a rough idle and I'm declaring an emergency"....

I am guilty of bringing some politics into this when I mentioned Argentina.

What I do when I don't like the way things are somewhere is leave. If I don't like a book I don't read it. If I don't like the food I don't eat it. Quit reading, starting, participating, in political discussion if you can't hold your own.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I don't think the mods mind arguing--evem about politics--as long as it's done respectfully and doesn't lapse into a bunch of ad hominem crap. So far this one has maintained itself with decorum, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time until Sparky will bring up the inverse relationship between medical expenditures and stocking HBG, at which time I'll have to take the gloves off.

I'm thinking gravity will prevail, but I'm hoping the aircraft remains aloft for a time yet. Quite informative exchange, and I'm hopeful the pot and the kettle will reconcile their differences.

Google: "Medical tourism Mexico" It’s a thriving business and for years many US citizens have been taking advantage of the world class services. Laser eye surgery and dental implants are among the more popular services offered.

Also, a multitude of seniors are going to Mexico and Canada in order to purchase the exact same prescription pharmaceuticals sold here, but at a much lower price. In fact, Charter bus services to Canada are being offered with which to make these drug runs.

Yep, I have a close friend who went to Mexico for dental care. It was a first class clinic in a nice border town. The major work he had done cost about 30% compared to here. That still happens.

I have a friend who takes cruises. When they annually went to Mexico, he stocked up on prescription drugs at an extremely low cost. They were available without a scrip. That recently changed and now take a prescription.

I never did like Social Security. Now that I'm drawing it, I'm finding that it is now considered an entitlement which has turned into a nasty word. No way I will live long enough to ever even get back the $ I paid in.

Fair enough. But I'm not advocating the country become socialist and certainly not like a country that has had the horrible leaders and economy like Argentina has.

I'm simply advocating everyone pay ther own way via taxes and bargaining for lower rates via numbers that will bring prices down, cut out the middle man, and stop feeding the monstrosity we have presently that keeps charging more and giving less. For all we pay in this country no longer have the best medical care. Some european countries put us to shame. (Of course our congress critters have the best medical care money can buy).

As far as free medical school, and even college, I think my mother's side of the family's country has it figured out well. In Germany the state pays for it but you have to prove you're qualified, and only the cream of the crop gets it. The kids are seperated early on whether they will go to university or a trade school. Unlike here kids aren't told they will be a failure if they don't get a degree. Europe has economic issues but Germany still has the highest wages in the world and a powerhouse economy.

I don't understand all the angst about single payer universal health care. Seems to me a lot of businesses would be overjoyed to have the health insurance monkey off their backs. I know I'd hire if I didn't have to deal with it. As a business owner you obviously know how expensive providing health care to your employees is.

Some American medical schools are in poor countries or offshore in carribean countries. I wonder why that is? Does Grenada ring a bell? My former doctor got his degree from a medical school in Mexico. And no he's not hispanic.

Cecil, you have to pay for the single payer system. I don't want to pay, I know my kids don't want to pay. An employer shouldn't have to pay for their employees if they don't want to provide that benefit. Health care is not a right, pursuing it is a right.

If people can't get jobs with health insurance then they should have studied harder in high school. Life is about choices and some choose poorly.

Our nation has very little socialism built into it and that amount of socialism allowed is spelled out so clearly in the US Constitution that even an utter moron can understand it. Health care is not one of the social programs that the feds are allowed to provide. The founders also provided a tool to change that, it's called a Constitutional amendment. The votes to get such an amendment are not there though are they? Instead we circumvent the greatest single document ever written by man and simply say that the interstate commerce clause now applies to health care, good grief. I do not trust the federal government or any man to decide what the limits of my health care should be. There are many more free minded people out there just like me, we've had it!

This is where people of a free mind differ. I will not have my government telling me what I can and cannot study based on their idea of if I can perform. The free market knows best in EVERY scenario. There is no instance where decisions based on what's right for the government are also right for me. When government controls anything we end up with the "trajedy of the commons" scenario.

Yep, my BIL and his family once hosted an exchange student from Germany, and she said the same thing. Talk about some serious motivation to do your best, that was it.

When I had my shop, my premiums were really decent, under $3K/yr, but I was paying close to $18K/yr for one of my guy's. I paid every ones premiums 100%, plus covered their yearly deductible as part of a bonus plan. They also got decent year end bonuses to boot!

When I closed the shop I personally carried their insurance until they got hooked back up, which wasn't too long as these guy's were the very best of the best!!!

I've been out of touch with them for a couple years now, but they would always ask when I was going to fire the shop back up again? IMO, the economy never recovered from what it once was, and doubt it ever will. Those day's are long gone.

If fortune favors me, I will be able to close this shop soon. I'm ready to go back on someone else's payroll.

It can be favorable if you get the right job.

Tony, from a pure selfish reason, I hate to see you close up but with healthcare and the other regulations that they put on small businesses it is making it super hard to stay self employed. Wish you the best of luck.

Appreciate that, Ken.

Not to mention the resulting boon to the economy if we were to simply implement a single payer system, such as Medicare For All. (which btw was the original intent for Medicare) People on average would have more disposable income due to the savings realized from not having to pay high insurance premiums. Not only would employers be free of the hassles associated with providing insurance, they would be able to hire more employees, as well as pay higher wages. People would no longer be job locked in order to receive healthcare. Entrepreneurs would be free to quit their jobs and explore their options without fear of losing healthcare. Many could retire before reaching the age of Medicare eligibility, thereby freeing up jobs for others. More people would seek medical care, thereby increasing the amount of jobs in the medical profession, etc, etc, etc...........The multiplier effect on the economy would be tremendous.

Medicare currently has administrative costs of about 4% compared to the insurance companies costs of 20% - 40%. Therefore the elimination of profits in the medical insurance sector alone would produce a very significant overall savings, and medical providers would realize a significant reduction of costs associated with billing and collection. As in other countries with single payer systems price controls would produce savings as well........... It's painfully obvious that we are being screwed when we are paying $4,000 for a CTscan which can be had in Mexico for $75............. No doubt, the insurance and healthcare industries are in collusion.

The most important reason for a healthcare plan would be just knowing that all of us and our families and friends would not have to be concerned about losing everything or not being able to get needed treatment in the case of injury or illness. (Over 50% of bankruptcies in the US are due to medical costs, and many of these people have insurance) And while living in the richest country in the world it really p**s’s me off when I hear of a fundraiser to collect money to pay for a little girl’s heart operation.

Any form of governance that does not provide for the affordable and available health care, welfare, safety, and education of it’s citizens is sorely lacking, for these are the building blocks of a civil and prosperous society.

Currently, the 8 most prosperous, safest, freest countries in the world are governed with a strong social agenda.......... Google it!

BTW, the USA IS a product of socialism, and a few examples of OUR social constructs are: Ben Franklin’s Post Office, which built this nations economy..... Abe Lincoln’s national railroad..... FDR’s National and State parks, along with SSI, and rural telephone and electricity...... JFK’s NASA..... Eisenhower’s federal highway system....... Police and fire protection, along with the courts system..... And among many more of our social constructs is the largest social construct the world has ever seen, the US military.

Sorry 'bout the long post, but that's about as short as I could summarize.

He could keep it open as a gig on the side with select customers that have been reliable in the past. I would think they would be appreciative of Spark's skills knowing they are going to get the best!

I did a few on the side, which I got well paid for, but it can be demanding if you're working for a concern that's under the gun to perform and scheduling meetings becomes an issue. Don't need to do that.

I'm sitting out in the woods on battery power working on a control system for a small pipe mill from one of the bosses favorite customers. If you can get a contract like mine...

We have a single payor,universal coverage healthcare system in this country, specifically designed for the needs of a group that our polititions purport to single out for special care--the VA medical system. It is completely government funded and managed. It is not a paragon of either efficient or cost effective care. If the government cannot meet the needs of our veterans, what faith should we have that it can care for the rest of us? [There are a lot of truly wonderful physicians, nurses, and others who work in the VA system--this is not meant as an attack in any way on anyone who works there, but rather an observation that the system as a whole is not necessarily an improvement over the present civillian system.]

In England, their universal NHS system is the target of constant criticism .....lots of their own citizens are very unhappy with the care their receiving there. Did you know that modern studies of the natural history of a perforated appendix were done in England, on patients who ruptured because they did not receive timely care, despite full knowledge of the diagnosis?

The Canadian system seems to work better, but it is still designed to provide care within the limits of budgeted constraints, at which centralized, sigle payor systems excel. We can trade anecdotes all day, but two years ago I set up a consultation with a neurosurgeon here in TN for an acquaintance in Canada who was having terrible headaches and couldn't get scheduled for an MRI for 10 weeks. She was ultimately diagnosed with a slow growing brain tumor, couldn't see a neurosurgeon up there for six weeks after the diagnosis was made. Her mother, who lives in England, is in a wheelchair now because she was on a waiting list for a decompressive laminectomy for spinal stenosis for 18 months, and lost the ability to walk during this time.

I don't have the answer to fixing the system, but increased involvement by the government doesn't guarantee improved results.

Gully, I went to a fundraiser about a month ago for a guy I grew up with. He had lung cancer, but they fixed it. The cancer came back and is in another organ and bones now. Not too good.

He worked for a huge corp in the USA, but the insurance he had backed off, therefore the fundraiser to pay medical bills.

Not going to get too deep in gub things.

Ah, some light!!!

I was on my way to work this morning and get a cell call. (I pulled over on the side of the road)

It was from the ER hospital in Muskegon I went to asking if I paid this bill for just under $1600.00. Said I paid one bill to your hospital, but never saw that one. She said it was actually never sent to me. Then, how in the hell do I know I even have the bill!!!

Anyway, what they are trying to do is make this a workers compensation claim where they can get the full price for services, and apparently it don't matter who pays the bill. They talked to my boss first, then called me a few minutes later to see if I would accept it. I was told today they always try to pull this WC first. I told her to run it thru my insurance, and motored on to work.

Total bills for this shouldn't be that bad at all. Once it get's straightened out and sparring with insurance is over.

BTW, Love this illuminated keyboard while out in the dark woods at night.

Sheesh...

Get another bill in the mail, which already went thru insurance, which they paid and I paid my part.

Now they are saying I do not have insurance and this is a workman's compensation claim, which no one will take responsibility for and demand immediate payment from me, even tho it went thru the insurance and I kicked in my part.

Emails were sent.

About the VA. It may have it's issues but i know lots of vets that sing nothing but praises about it. I guess it depends on who you talk to. Same goes for health care in England and Canada. I know Canadians that love their system and are quick to not overstay their Florida wintertime visits so they won't be stuck with ours. Some here say they have to wait for procedures up there. I've done my share of waiting here too. And no one is left to die up there if it's an emergency.

We could take the best of all the different country's health systems and do a bang up job if we put our heads together. We could really bring down the costs too with such a large market. But it won't hapen until both sides of the aisle start working together and stop the oneupmanship.

My apologies Phil for diverting from the original theme of this thread. Hope you get a reasonable conclusion to your bills.

One thing fior sure: no one goes bankrupt in those countries trying to cover their medical bills.

"One thing fior sure: no one goes bankrupt in those countries trying to cover their medical bills."

Roger that, Cecil!!

They just get dead.

I sat down this morning for my first cup of coffee of the day and came to this site because it's a good way to start my day. I like anything that has to do with fishing and water. I And I have learned it's not so easy to grow fish in ponds. But I like a good challenge.
it did not take much reading before the talk of health care came up.
Some one here mentioned,
Raise Taxes to pay for health care :(, Some of us here pay more than our FAIR SHARE, while others pay little to no Taxes. I have to pay more because I worked harder or smarter than most people would have. And that is not fair. I would like to see consumption Tax, that way Every One pays their fair share. It's the only way everyone pays!!
Employee health cost to a business, I pay 100% of the health care premiums. It's what I do for my employees as part of their benefits, along with yearly bonus they also receive. The employees can walk across the street and get a job but most stay. I do wish it would stop going up every year. And I thought the health care that was forced on us was supposed to reduce health care cost. Haha
And lets talk about what the GOBERMENT does that's good, ANYTHING? I can't think of anything, other than overpaid for poor quality. And with that as my experience, I sure don't want the government controlling my family health care.
Social Security is not an entitlement when someone has paid into it from the age of 14 to 66. Or when the maximum deducted amount has been paid out for 30 yr's.
And Sparkie, my plane has not declared an emergency, it's flying high. I just wished it had pontoons on it, like I said I like anything that has to do with water. And that reminds me, I am going to the pond

Tracy

Thanks for the hyperbole Sunil.

Lots of folks die here of cancer that could have been prevented, if caught early enough, because they can't afford a colonoscopy, breast exams, and other cancer screenings, and that's with insurance. I can't imagine not having insurance.

Sometimes the pilot is the last to know he's on a collision course. Until the controller tells him or her otherwise.

I was just kidding, Cecil.

There's more people than you think who are either scared of doctors, or flat just don't want to know what's wrong.

My college roommate, he's been with the same company for 18 years, full health care, etc. He hasn't been to a doctor for at least 5 years. He's not feeling "quite right" and has for a while, and most times when I talk to him he's coughing. I can't convince him to go in and get checked out. Non-smoker, family is healthy, etc.

He's deathly afraid of dentists. Show him a needle and he better be sitting down in a chair that he can't fall out of because he'll pass out. I think he went 15 years between his last dentist appointments.

He works at a tech company doing programming and other things, and he's got a masters in Psych. He's not an uneducated person.

He just got a "we won't be needing your services anymore" notice that is effective Dec 23rd. I told him that he better get his butt to the doctor and dentist while he's still covered.

Good call, esshup.

Dude better get going....

Most Definitely, get on the ball!!!

With all the trouble I've had, boss uses me as an example to other employees to keep on top of things with regards to your medical and insurance.

After several phone calls this morning, I got the hospital to shove this last bill thru the insurance, even tho it was already paid a while back. I'm hoping the insurance will pick up on the error.

Surprised the hell out of me tho, that the hospital did not have any of my insurance details even tho a number of bills have been processed and paid. I've heard a bit that this just may be a 3rd party billing issue.

And I get carried away. My apologies. I'm used to debate forums where no one holds back.

I just don't like the status quo of the health care industry in this country. Disparate service and outrageous charges are not where this country should be. Most of us can only dream of the quality of care our congress critters get.

I look for the health care industry to implode on itself eventually. It can't go on the way it is in this country.

My mother-in-law was a coder and biller for a clinic. Oh the things she's told me!

For what it's worth.

Got the final bill for the tube ride (MRI), blood work, x-rays, doc visits, and a few other things. My total is $276 plus some change.

That didn't sound right so I brought it to a gal in our office that deals with this stuff. She said "it is" the final bill, but appears to be way too low for what you should be paying because you haven't even met your deductible, and way off from maximum out of pocket cost.

She said someone must like me because she has never seen this happen before. Just pay it and don't ask questions, because that bill should have been +10X of what it is.

I sure as hell hope no one get's involved on their end that understands math

Good for you. So that leads to the question, how are things going? Was a final diagnosis done or was it still a "It could be this or that." ?

How's the recovery road coming along?

Nothing official at this moment for a final, because they don't really know what's up. Doc mentioned testing for a couple other diseases, but no word on that.

Closest anyone has ever pinpointed anything is Lynn, the physical therapist.

She got everything working OK except my left foot, which can go nut's, and that's a fun thing when stabbing pains or severe cramps are waking you up in the middle of the night. Last night, I had to say hello to a new one. Where did this come from?

So, really don't know at the moment.

Don't ever take Ultram or Tramadol! Trust me on this!!!

It works like it should as a decent narcotic pain reliever that's laced with anti depressants, but you really need to taper off this stuff.

First mistake, and didn't know, is you just cant stop taking this. Really weird things happen, which we won't go into If you don't follow this taper down closely, like I skipped 2 days working with firewood and moving stuff from the shop, more weird things happen, then it's Fruit Loop City for a couple days trying to equalize this out.

Today smoothed back out, but it sucked getting to this point!

Nice stuff to make you a vegetable tho

Again.

Been going OK without the meds, but that is my choice. You know it every day, but not a huge issue. Usually Motrin kicks it, but had an episode last night where my left foot went uncontrollably nuts. Got up this morning and felt like there were some broken bones. It's all nerves tho, but that damn Radicular Pain set in all the way. That really sucks!!!, but had to cut it this time.

I hate meds, but if they work...